rhastings80
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2009
- Messages
- 636
I replied to thier email asking to clairfy if that means its safe and got no response. I was disapointed.
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Eaton CH Panel Major Fire Hazard
- Thread starter n20junkie
- Start date
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
I've repaired lots of bus stabs and whole bus failures on all sorts of buildings. The fires have all been contained by the enclosures.
All I have ever discovered is scorched paint on the deadfronts and smoke leaking from inside.
Hardly a Major Fire Hazard
All I have ever discovered is scorched paint on the deadfronts and smoke leaking from inside.
Hardly a Major Fire Hazard
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rlitman
Well-known member
I've repaired lots of bus stabs and whole bus failures on all sorts of buildings. The fires have all been contained by the enclosures.
All I have ever discovered is scorched paint on the deadfronts and smoke leaking from inside.
Hardly a Major Fire Hazard
+1 That's why we insist on containing these things in metal panels, and why breakers are made from thermoset plastics that don't melt.
dcg9381
Well-known member
So. According to the piss poor engineering, this is ok. Hopefully if someone down the road has a house burn down over this, they find this thread and have evidence for the court case.
I think I'd create a doc that says you failed local electrical inspection.. Or actually get it failed.
And I'd provide him info on the (BR?) breakers that are installed.
Note, per NEC they all need to be Eaton BR breakers in that panel (or so I've been told).
Best case is what though? They provide you a new load center, probably under $200 - so decide what your time is worth....
rlitman
Well-known member
I think I'd create a doc that says you failed local electrical inspection.. Or actually get it failed...
On what grounds? The panel carries a UL certification, and was not recalled by the manufacturer. While it clearly has a manufacturing defect, both are standing by the fact that it should be safe to use, and no inspector has the right to override that.
On what grounds? The panel carries a UL certification, and was not recalled by the manufacturer. While it clearly has a manufacturing defect, both are standing by the fact that it should be safe to use, and no inspector has the right to override that.
Well said, inspectors do not get to turn down listed equipment as long as it is being used per listing, labeling, & instructions.
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
I think I'd create a doc that says you failed local electrical inspection...
Forging a document is an incredibly bad idea, especially in the case of government papers.
Did you come up with idea by yourself?
Chilliwack Murray
Well-known member
For what it's worth, I know a good number of electricians that will not install a CH panel. There are numerous reports of issues with the panels and especially the breakers not tripping going back over 15 years and last time I looked (several years ago now) they still hadn't resolved their issues.
I only found this out after I'd installed a CH panel in my previous shop - an electrician friend told me about several CH panels he'd personally seen fail after only a few years... One of which started a fire that almost burned down a house. I was a shocked (no pun intended) when I did some digging and saw how many fires and investigations were linked to these panels.
A little googling will show how many unresolved issues they have with the regulating authorities.
Even if they have resolved the issues, I couldn't trust a company that kept selling a product like this especially for household use.
I only found this out after I'd installed a CH panel in my previous shop - an electrician friend told me about several CH panels he'd personally seen fail after only a few years... One of which started a fire that almost burned down a house. I was a shocked (no pun intended) when I did some digging and saw how many fires and investigations were linked to these panels.
A little googling will show how many unresolved issues they have with the regulating authorities.
Even if they have resolved the issues, I couldn't trust a company that kept selling a product like this especially for household use.
TRWham
Well-known member
I think I'd create a doc that says you failed local electrical inspection.. Or actually get it failed.
And I'd provide him info on the (BR?) breakers that are installed.
Note, per NEC they all need to be Eaton BR breakers in that panel (or so I've been told).
Best case is what though? They provide you a new load center, probably under $200 - so decide what your time is worth....
Why would the NEC require BR breakers in a CH panel? If someone told you that, I would question anything else he has ever told you. Not to mention that the NEC would not address specific equipment qualification- that is UL's role.
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alfredeneuman
Well-known member
BR breakers wouldn't even fit in a CH panel.
They're different widths, and the bus designs are completely different
They're different widths, and the bus designs are completely different
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
I think I'd create a doc that says you failed local electrical inspection.. Or actually get it failed.
And I'd provide him info on the (BR?) breakers that are installed.
Note, per NEC they all need to be Eaton BR breakers in that panel (or so I've been told).
Best case is what though? They provide you a new load center, probably under $200 - so decide what your time is worth....
Who told you that? Its BS...
walta
Well-known member
For what it's worth, I know a good number of electricians that will not install a CH panel. There are numerous reports of issues with the panels and especially the breakers not tripping going back over 15 years and last time I looked (several years ago now) they still hadn't resolved their issues.
I only found this out after I'd installed a CH panel in my previous shop - an electrician friend told me about several CH panels he'd personally seen fail after only a few years... One of which started a fire that almost burned down a house. I was a shocked (no pun intended) when I did some digging and saw how many fires and investigations were linked to these panels.
A little googling will show how many unresolved issues they have with the regulating authorities.
Even if they have resolved the issues, I couldn't trust a company that kept selling a product like this especially for household use.
Care to add a few links when I Google images” Eaton panel fire” I get nothing. If I enter “CH panel fire” the 2 images that come up are old as dirt.
Walta
Care to add a few links when I Google images” Eaton panel fire” I get nothing. If I enter “CH panel fire” the 2 images that come up are old as dirt.
Walta
I did not get anything either, sounds like internet BS.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
For what it's worth, I know a good number of electricians that will not install a CH panel. There are numerous reports of issues with the panels and especially the breakers not tripping going back over 15 years and last time I looked (several years ago now) they still hadn't resolved their issues.
I only found this out after I'd installed a CH panel in my previous shop - an electrician friend told me about several CH panels he'd personally seen fail after only a few years... One of which started a fire that almost burned down a house. I was a shocked (no pun intended) when I did some digging and saw how many fires and investigations were linked to these panels.
A little googling will show how many unresolved issues they have with the regulating authorities.
Even if they have resolved the issues, I couldn't trust a company that kept selling a product like this especially for household use.
Unless you can provide some actual references and proof and calling this FAKE NEWS.
CH panels are good panels and Ive seen numerous panels in older homes that have zero problems.
Maybe you mixed them up with FPL or shitsco(zinsco)...
dcg9381
Well-known member
Well said, inspectors do not get to turn down listed equipment as long as it is being used per listing, labeling, & instructions.
You guys have nicer inspectors than me.
Around here they can fail things if the wind comes from the wrong direction.
Seriously though, any municipal inspector here can fail anything on visual - could cite cracking, blah.
If you're indicating that Eaton needs code cited on the issue, that's harder.
dcg9381
Well-known member
Who told you that? Its BS...
Here's a reference, but I can find several:
https://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/mix-breakers-siemans-panel-87505/
Seems that UL allows manufacturers to specify which breakers are "compatible" - as such manufacturers don't tend to indicate that their load centers are compatible with alternate manufacturer breakers.
Basically, as I read it, it's "up to the manufacturer". And they typically say "no".
Will any BR breaker work in a BR panel? If I didn't know better, I'd say that I've done it.
Chilliwack Murray
Well-known member
Like I said it was 5 or 6 years ago but yes, there were numerous examples, I don’t make **** up to post. I will endeavour to find some examples tonight and post them.
Older Westinghouse panels are okay as far as I remember, the issue is with the CH panels from early 2000s up.
Here’s a link to an independent test site, they actually show CH (2017) as being right inline quality wise.
https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Circuit_Breaker_Failures.php
The Zinsco panels mentioned were sold in Canada manufactured by Sylvania GTE CEB and Commander and developed so many problems they were eventually decertified by CSA. This manufacturer was bought out by CH in the mid 1990s Westinghouse and the panels continued to be produced and sold under the CH brand.
All that said, there is far less information on the internet today then when I last looked up the CH breaker panels which was 2011 and the first search returned dozens of examples of lawsuits and failure reports.
Older Westinghouse panels are okay as far as I remember, the issue is with the CH panels from early 2000s up.
Here’s a link to an independent test site, they actually show CH (2017) as being right inline quality wise.
https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Circuit_Breaker_Failures.php
The Zinsco panels mentioned were sold in Canada manufactured by Sylvania GTE CEB and Commander and developed so many problems they were eventually decertified by CSA. This manufacturer was bought out by CH in the mid 1990s Westinghouse and the panels continued to be produced and sold under the CH brand.
All that said, there is far less information on the internet today then when I last looked up the CH breaker panels which was 2011 and the first search returned dozens of examples of lawsuits and failure reports.
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wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Here's a reference, but I can find several:
https://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/mix-breakers-siemans-panel-87505/
Seems that UL allows manufacturers to specify which breakers are "compatible" - as such manufacturers don't tend to indicate that their load centers are compatible with alternate manufacturer breakers.
Basically, as I read it, it's "up to the manufacturer". And they typically say "no".
Will any BR breaker work in a BR panel? If I didn't know better, I'd say that I've done it.
maybe theres a miscommunication here. A BR breaker is not listed nor is required nor will fit in a CH panel....
alfredeneuman
Well-known member
Here's a reference, but I can find several:
https://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/mix-breakers-siemans-panel-87505/
That's a Home Inspector's Forum, and having followed it for years, one of the worst as far as electrical matters are concerned.
TRWham
Well-known member
There is apparently some confusion regarding the 2 types of Cutler Hammer residential panel boards. The CH has only ever been made by Cutler Hammer (Eaton) and has no connection to Westinghouse, Challenger, Bryant, et al. The BR style breaker is listed for use in some of those obsolete panels made by others, but it is not at all the same as the CH design.
Since you took the time to tape one conductor red, the red conductor is supposed to be on the 2nd leg instead of the first. Yes I know it's irrelevant, only mentioned it because you taped one of the hots.
So my house has an Eaton CH, and I was under the belief that they were a higher quality panel with a lifetime warranty on the buss bar. my house has 2 Eaton CH panels, so I purchased 3rd 42 slot for my garage.
I installed the panel in the fall, and have just a few breakers in the panel. I was looking at some wiring and noticed a flaw in a lug. looked like the copper was hard when bending occurred and it caused a crack in the lug. Then I noticed ALL the lugs were cracked. Most lugs had multiple cracks, and all in the same place.
I called Eaton, they asked for pictures. I sent pictures then they wanted a picture of the panel sticker. I sent that. Then I get this in return:
"Hi ______,
This happens to be a CH type load center NEMA 1 , referring to the image below, I am not sure how these cuts coming up, hope the breakers installed were correct part numbers, also would like to understand the question you are referring to in the last mail."
Instantly blaming me for something that is clearly their issue! The only breakers installed were the ones that came in the box, along with an additional 3. All the slots that are open NEVER had a breaker installed on them.
If you purchased an Eaton CH panel recently, go check your lugs for cracking.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Since you took the time to tape one conductor red, the red conductor is supposed to be on the 2nd leg instead of the first. Yes I know it's irrelevant, only mentioned it because you taped one of the hots.
supposed to? according to who?
raco232
Well-known member
supposed to? according to who?
I agree with wyliediesels! Never heard of such BS.
The better question is, who bothers to phase tape when you have a single phase system? It makes absolutely no difference.
The only time code mandates a color is white or gray for neutral and orange for B phase in a 120/240V delta.
The only time code mandates a color is white or gray for neutral and orange for B phase in a 120/240V delta.
teamextreme
Well-known member
The better question is, who bothers to phase tape when you have a single phase system? It makes absolutely no difference.
The only time code mandates a color is white or gray for neutral and orange for B phase in a 120/240V delta.
^What he said