ALI certified vs non certified lifts...

[3rdgendslmech]

Hopefully in the next few months I'll be in the market for a lift for my barn. Due to county height restrictions I could only go with 10' walls. Not ideal but still do-able.
Other than obvious reasons to buy a certified lift, have any of you guys used/own a non certified floor plate lift and felt comfortable doing so?
Tallest/heaviest vehicle I have is a 2004 1 ton Ford diesel. I could get it about 2.5 feet off the ground and that's better than the 10 inch blocks it's sitting on now since I've pulled the transmission out this weekend.
I was looking at Atlas 9000lb lifts from Greg Smith. They have a certified lift for $27-- and a non certified for $16--.

 

[Moman01]

Is there a restriction on your Roof height? You could vault the ceiling and gain as much Height as you need.I have a titan 4 post that isn’t certified so I can’t speak of the difference.

 

[3rdgendslmech]

Is there a restriction on your Roof height? You could vault the ceiling and gain as much Height as you need.I have a titan 4 post that isn’t certified so I can’t speak of the difference.

Yeah...county said since I'm within 5 miles from the airport accessory structure can only be equal or less than the primary structure (house).
I've just got standard trusses 4' on center.

 

[Barrymaxx]

If it makes you feel any better/worse, I bought a Bendpak GP7. Its ALI certified yet I found numerous quality issues with it, many of them safety related.

So just because a lift is ALI doesn't mean its not junk. I would feel fine with a non ALI lift next time.

 

[3rdgendslmech]

If it makes you feel any better/worse, I bought a Bendpak GP7. Its ALI certified yet I found numerous quality issues with it, many of them safety related.

So just because a lift is ALI doesn't mean its not junk. I would feel fine with a non ALI lift next time.

Yeah I hear you on that. I've heard/seen some bendpak stories so what you pay for isn't always what you get. If I was going to be constantly using a lift I'd think more towards a certified lift. Usually if I use a 2 post lift I put support stands under the vehicle for S&Gs. I was fearless in my younger days but being a little older and wiser makes me a little proactive lol.

 

[ManOnTheCouch]

I went certified with a Dannmar D10-CX which is ALI certified. Just an added level of comfort for me. In hindsight, if I were buying from a reputable company like Derek Weaver or Atlas and the lift was what I wanted, I probably wouldn't bother with limiting myself to a certified lift. I would look more at the lift design and specs.

 

[MrSurly]

I have an old Worth two post that is (US) built like a tank. The thickness of the steel and dimensions of every portion of the thing (heavier than other lifts I've examined) convince me that I'm not missing out by not having the cert. The base of each column is made from a two-foot-square chunk of 5/8" plate. (Because mine is old and is from a commercial shop, it has wear. When I bought it I completely disassembled it, replaced wear items, etc. I'm as aware as I can be of how it's built.) In all honesty, these lifts are very simple machines. There's really not much about them that isn't directly visible to the eye except for maybe internal weld quality. I talked with them about ALI cert and they told me that their lift would "exceed all the ALI testing requirements but the cost of the sticker is too much to justify". They are a low-volume shop so maybe that's true.
Of *course* they would say that, take it with the requisite grains of salt, but given the heft of the product I believe it.
I'm not posting to promote the brand (all reports are that they are glacier-slow on delivery). I'm posting to say that because lifts are pretty basic machines, go look at some of them; check the local tire and brake shops, ask the suppliers where their lifts are in your area and take a look. Ask for specifications such as steel thickness and weight (as an indicator).
I would put a lot more emphasis on comparing steel thickness and general build quality than a sticker.

 

[Chilliwack Murray]

I have to agree with the last post... I have an older 9k ALM commercial lift that does actually have an ALI certification but even if it didn't I'd be far more comfortable under it than anything new I've seen. If I get another, unless it is a 4 post strictly for storage, I would definitely look for an older commercial unit again.

The columns and carriages are 5/8" and the bases are 3/4" plate mounted with twelve 3/4" anchors weighs 2 - 3 times as much as similar capacity lifts on the market now. I see people on various forums asking how much a lift should flex and how much a vehicle on the lift should move which to me would be a big red flag. I can push and pull very hard on my 3500 Dodge diesel and it barely moves 6' in the air. With a mid size car, I can jump on the bumper and it doesn't move at all.

Mine had just been removed from a shop and had been recently serviced and certified so there is no significant wear but as mentioned, they are simple beasts and parts are very much universal.

 

[pbon]

I would not worry if it was a quality lift with a good reputation, unless I needed ALI for shop insurance purposes. I had a Greg Smith 2 post — BP8000 — that was great but not certified. I now have a Bendpak — HD-9XW — that is ALI but it does not seem to me to be any higher quality than the Greg Smith.

 

[jedeyeben]

I just bought a lift from Greg Smith in Indy last week, new showroom location is great and so are the people, but they did recommend a 10k for the bigger trucks. Just an honest FYI. It wasn’t an upsale either just a recommendation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[3rdgendslmech]

The closest G. Smith to me is about a 2 hr drive to Deliver so one day I'll make a little road trip and do some window shopping. Thought about a 4 post but the way cars and trucks are built now it's kinda nice to drop a sub-frame or pick a cab off to do certain jobs.
Thought about a 4 post at first but the huge loss of floor space and the fact that I won't be able to store another car under it kinda made me feel like 2 post would be the better choice

 

[493 scamp]

I own a non certified Atlas 9000lb lift. Mine has to have 12' ceilings because the columns are 1 piece . It misses my trusses by 1 inch. I will not be raising any trucks with it. It is not as heavily built as the Rotary 90000lb I work under at work but for my use it works great. I dont like lifting trucks especially Diesels or long trucks or duallies on any 9000 lb lift. You need a 10 to 120000 lb lift in my opinion. Base plate lifts in the right size for the job attached correctly to known good concrete are safe as well.

 

[sreeb]

I decided I would prefer to spend money on steel rather than a sticker and ended up buying an 11K Tuxedo lift ($2268 tax, title, and loading on my trailer). I have no regrets. It isn't a floor plate lift though.

I looked at the shipping weight when comparing them.

I'm not sure I would want to lift an 11K truck on it though. My largest current vehicle is a 1/2 ton and I don't envision ever buying anything larger than a 3/4 ton.

Mine is rated at 2750 lbs per arm. If you are approaching the max per arm, you need to give a lot of thought to balance.

 

[wssix99]

Other than obvious reasons to buy a certified lift, have any of you guys used/own a non certified floor plate lift and felt comfortable doing so?

The best thing about a tragic accident is that if you die, you aren't going to care about it at all! So your personal choice should be easy.

If you want the best feedback for the tradeoffs with safety and financial payback, you shouldn't ask us. You should consult the feelings of your significant other.

 

[lowe.joshua51]

I have a non certified Derek Weaver baseplate lift and I have no issues with it nor do I feel weird working under it. My grandpa has a certified Challenger overhead lift and I feel my derek weaver is much more stout. However, I would prefer the overhead lift in general just because it's overhead...

Can you get an overhead version with the put up in the trusses?

 

[3rdgendslmech]

The best thing about a tragic accident is that if you die, you aren't going to care about it at all! So your personal choice should be easy.

If you want the best feedback for the tradeoffs with safety and financial payback, you shouldn't ask us. You should consult the feelings of your significant other.

1. I usually ask opinions of others that have things that I don't so I can form my own opinion about them. Thats why I'm asking about people that own both.

2. Every time I've seen anything fail, be it a chain snapping, motor locking up, a load fall off a forklift, car in an accident on the highway, etc it's usually lack of knowledge and common sense. I'm not saying accidents dont happen, but usually they could have been prevented.

 

[3rdgendslmech]

I have a non certified Derek Weaver baseplate lift and I have no issues with it nor do I feel weird working under it. My grandpa has a certified Challenger overhead lift and I feel my derek weaver is much more stout. However, I would prefer the overhead lift in general just because it's overhead...

Can you get an overhead version with the put up in the trusses?

I probably could. I might have to take out the horizontal bracing that tie all the bottom chords of the trusses together then nail them back in once thing lift is up. Seen a few people do it this way.

A few weeks back a guy posted a floor plate lift and he fabricated a top bar to connect the 2 posts for extra measure and it looked beefy.

 

[lowe.joshua51]

I probably could. I might have to take out the horizontal bracing that tie all the bottom chords of the trusses together then nail them back in once thing lift is up. Seen a few people do it this way.

A few weeks back a guy posted a floor plate lift and he fabricated a top bar to connect the 2 posts for extra measure and it looked beefy.

I'll have to look for that post, I've thought about doing that. I don't have the ceiling height for an overhead at all so I was absolutely limited to floorplate. If you can fit an overhead, even with some extra work, you'll be glad you did every time you don't have to roll something over the hump.

 

[38Chevy454]

You really should consider vaulted ceiling, or at least scissor trusses to gain more clearance. 10 ft is just not going to give enough height. You may not even be able to get the columns to fit with a 10 ft ceiling height.

As to the ALI certified or not, I went non-certified for my home use. All of the lifts are pretty much made in China, so find one that has design features you like. The country of mfr is China, even for many ALI certified.

 

[slidehammer]

I'd be very interested if anyone could provide a link to ALI's specific certification requirements.

I suspect that in there somewhere the ALI stipulates certain must-have features, and that a mechanical lock is one of them. Some Nussbaum lifts do not have mechanical locks (they rely on independent/redundant hydraulics instead) and none of them are certified. It can't be because of capacity or quality, which from Nussbaum is top notch.

That said, I wish they used mechanical locks.

 

[wssix99]

2. Every time I've seen anything fail, be it a chain snapping, motor locking up, a load fall off a forklift, car in an accident on the highway, etc it's usually lack of knowledge and common sense. I'm not saying accidents dont happen, but usually they could have been prevented.

This is the thing that worries me the most. (I doubt any lift would have a straight mechanical failure under normal circumstances.) I have several ALI certified lifts and on both my 2 post and my 4 post, I've had instances where a lock would engage accidentally and the load would tip on me. I'm constantly on egg shells about looking out for this and having a lift that has been certified makes me feel better that it will stand up to the stress of these situations.

I'd be very interested if anyone could provide a link to ALI's specific certification requirements.

For $315, it's yours: (I've never seen a standard from any organization provided to non-members for free or provided in a non-secured format.)
https://global.ihs.com/doc_detail.c...LCTV&item_s_key=00326501&item_key_date=821231

Here is an article, which summarizes some of the aspects of the standard:
https://www.autolift.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Fixed-Ops-Magazine-Sept-Oct-2016-1.pdf

 

[3rdgendslmech]

Atlas makes a 10K floor plate lift that has a max height of 9'4". I'm about 9'11" to the bottom chord of my trusses.
I understand that 10' walls arent perfect for a lift. If I could have built a 12' shop I would have but the county said no. Anyhow....being able to pick my diesel superduty up 2-3 feet would make a hell of a difference vs the 8" blocks its sitting on now do pull the transmission to do the oil pan and rear cover gaskets. I could possibly even pull the cab if I wanted to do it that way.
Bottom line is its a lot easier than jacking and cribbing to get a vehicle up high enough. Even if it means on smaller cars and SUVs you have to sit upright on the creeper or a roller chair.

 

[slidehammer]

For $315, it's yours: (I've never seen a standard from any organization provided to non-members for free or provided in a non-secured format.)

Many don't, but some do. It depends on the organization and their business model.

I'm not spending $315 to discover whether or not the ALI requires mechanical locks, but if anyone knows I'd be curious to know.

 

[Stea1thNinja]

I'd be very interested if anyone could provide a link to ALI's specific certification requirements.

I suspect that in there somewhere the ALI stipulates certain must-have features, and that a mechanical lock is one of them. Some Nussbaum lifts do not have mechanical locks (they rely on independent/redundant hydraulics instead) and none of them are certified. It can't be because of capacity or quality, which from Nussbaum is top notch.

That said, I wish they used mechanical locks.

I went as far as calling them and was unable to obtain a list of requirements.

 

[Ironcrow]

I'm not spending $315 to discover whether or not the ALI requires mechanical locks.

I did. Yes, mechanical safety locks are required. Also, if one lock catches and the other doesn't, maximum tilt is defined and, of course, the load shall not drop.

 

[Jlbc212]

I have a non ALI Atlas 10K lift. When I visited the Greg Smith distributor showroom I didn't see any differences between the certified and non-certified lifts other than the certification tag. My lift does have mechanical locks. It is essential on many lifts to visibly make sure the locks engage so the weight of the vehicle is resting on the mechanical lock and not dependent only upon the hydraulics. It is also essential as you begin to lower the vehicle to visibly ensure that both mechanical locks have disengaged. I have found that the springs that engage the locks on my Atlas lift could be stronger.

 

[slidehammer]

I did. Yes, mechanical safety locks are required. Also, if one lock catches and the other doesn't, maximum tilt is defined and, of course, the load shall not drop.

This makes sense. It explains for example why the Nussbaum Jumbo double scissor isn't on the ALI list while the Ravaglioli 540 double scissor is.

 

[wssix99]

I did. Yes, mechanical safety locks are required. Also, if one lock catches and the other doesn't, maximum tilt is defined and, of course, the load shall not drop.

Thanks. This is A++ and addresses my main issues and experiences.

 

[Ironcrow]

The standard calls out safety factors for hydraulic tubing, clevis pins, cable, bolts, structure and so forth and are generally between 3 (tubing) and 5 (structure). Basically if there's an earthquake while your car is on the lift and the car shifts over to be entirely supported by one lift arm, it stays up.

 

[JeepJohn62]

I recently orderded an Atlas BP10K lift from Greg Smith Equipment. I compared the models at a GSE warehouse. I happened to be travelling on business to the DC area and I drove to the Delaware location to take a look.

They did not have the BP 10K on display. But I did look over the 8K, 9K ALI version, and the 12K models. I have a shorter garage ceiling and these are practical lifts for my situation.

Basically, these are all the same design. The columns are larger or smaller depending on the lift rating. Steel, cables, and hydraulic cylinders.

The 9K ALI lift had large extra large bracing on the arms. The steel brace was 3/4" thick plate welded to the top of the arms. Very beefy, but is this due to the ALI cert, or is this just part of the design? It is worth noting that the 12K and larger lifts do not have this overkill bracing. However, the 12K lifts have larger arms and are very stout.

The 9K ALI lift had a nicer beveled arm lock mechanism. This is the small toothed gearlock that locks the arms in place when lifted. They all work, so I don't know why they bother to have different components between the lifts. The thing I didn't like about this lift is the dual cable release system. This does not offer the single point release, which seems like a big convenience item to me. Especially for a pro shop, which I presume is the customer for this lift. I found the little dangly cable hanging underneath to be an odd release mechanism as opposed to the single release that must be positively engaged to lower the lift. Is this ALI cert driven? Not sure.

I have an F250 long bed truck and I want the extra margin a 10K lift provides. So although the 10K lift is not ALI certified, it does have significant larger columns, thicker steel, baseplate, arms, and a stronger motor. Roughly the same price.

This leads me to conclude that the ALI cert is not the only important feature. What is there about the 10K or 12K lift that would not pass ALI cert? It seems that the marketing and sales department must decide which lifts they submit for ALI testing, to satisfy the pro shops and insurance requirements. But they don't bother with the expense or time for the other lifts.

Thoughts or other observations?

Thanks

John

 

[sreeb]

I reached pretty much the same conclusion which was that, for $X, you can get a larger and probably stronger non-certified lift.

I can't see getting a lift with separate safety releases. First there is a convenience aspect, maybe because I'm not that experienced at height management, I move vehicles up and down more than I expected. Secondly, if you are going to experience a hydraulic failure, I assume it will likely be while it is moving. I like being able to re-engage at any time while lowering.

I don't think the motor size matters at all unless you are a pro and saving 20 seconds per lift is money in your pocket.

 

[oldguyfl1]

I am going to buy a Dannmar I think, ALI.

 

[LifeLongWNYer]

"Basically if there's an earthquake while your car is on the lift and the car shifts over to be entirely supported by one lift arm, it stays up. "

If I had a vehicle on a lift, at the very first inclination that an earthquake was imminent, or actually occurring, the LAST place that I would be, is under that vehicle. In fact, I wouldn't even be inside that building.

The good news, for me, is that in western NY, we seldom have earthquakes, and even when we do, they are barely noticeable. We have had a couple, and until I read about them in the newspaper, I didn't know we had them.




.

 

[brownbagg]

backyard buddy are some of the best four post out there, and they are non ali certified

 

[wssix99]

The standard calls out safety factors for hydraulic tubing, clevis pins, cable, bolts, structure and so forth and are generally between 3 (tubing) and 5 (structure). Basically if there's an earthquake while your car is on the lift and the car shifts over to be entirely supported by one lift arm, it stays up.

I think a lot of people miss that the value is not in the "testing" but in meeting the standard. Lift manufacturers could meet the standard and not go through the "expense" of testing if it was really a big deal. (It's not.) The non-ALI lifts are consciously choosing not to meet the standard.

I'm also amazed how people can perform engineering by looks. (Or an engineering degree.) To hell with math! It's hard anyway...

If I had a vehicle on a lift, at the very first inclination that an earthquake was imminent, or actually occurring, the LAST place that I would be, is under that vehicle. In fact, I wouldn't even be inside that building.

I don't think anyone would be. I can't imagine too many car repairs that are more important than earthquake safety. But it would be nice if, when it was all over, that the load was still on the lift and not on the floor. (crushed up like a tin can)

There's a difference between an industrialized lift that meets a standard and a hobby lift that does not. People should buy what they want and need.

However; I think there are some posters here who are trying to rationalize an uninformed assertion that all lifts are equal. I haven't seen any quantitative information yet that would confirm this. (The only real information we have is the ALI standard and knowing that some lifts meet it.)

 

[59 wagon man]

when tire kingdom dropped my truck off the lift ,the problem was the operator was never certified so it really wont matter if you dont use common sense

 

[danb35]

The standard

@Ironcrow, since you're familiar with the standard, can you share any information on the cost of the certification as such? I'd expect it would break down along the lines of:

ALI membership: $x/year
Lab testing/engineering review: $x/design
License/royalty fee: $x/unit

Just trying to get a feel for how much of the cost delta really is just for the sticker, and how much is for changes needed in the design (or, alternatively, the manufacturer/dealer's perception of what the market will bear).

 

[finn]

My thinking is that there’s a discrete pecking order to consider when sourcing a lift. Your risk aversion and budget are both major inputs to making your choice.

The first tier would be commercial quality lifts like the Rotary and Mohawk, and probably a few others. Robust enough for daily use in a commercial environment and with a full service dealer network. Expensive and overkill for an occasional user, like most on this site.

Second tier would be the ALI certified lift suppliers like Bendpack and a few others The hobbies lifts from the likes of Rotary (Revolution) would also fit here. There lift marketers have invested enough to make sure their products meet the minimum design standards of a profit marketed to the public

The third tier is the non certified lifts. Just because they aren’t certified doesn’t mean they are unsafe, but the consumer has no way of knowing if they are an engineered and validated product, or a sweatshop copy of something else. These lifts are usually marketed by poorly capitolized companies that are essentially internet marketing companies, with no in house engineering capabilities. Essentially they are resellers of whatever is out there.

Pay your money and take your chances, I guess. If certification costs are too much for a company are too much for it to swallow, then they probably won’t be funded well enough to be viable in the long term. Sort of like buying cheap, no name imported tools at the swap meet vs buying quality brands with a recognized name.

For my own case, I went with a certified lift. Even then, i’m Still a little uneasy standing under an F250 knowing that if something went horribly wrong it would be hours before my wife found me.

If budget wasn’t part of the equation, I would have a commercial lift. Unfortunately, budget constraints are a reality.

 

[Diesel Dan]

My anecdotal experiences:
Recently helped install a ALI certified Atlas floor plate lift and, IMO, it's POS compared to my non-ALI cert Worth lifts I've owned. The ALI cert Bendpak I have is better than the Atlas but still not as stout as a same capacity Worth.

 

[Ironcrow]

@Ironcrow, since you're familiar with the standard, can you share any information on the cost of the certification as such? I'd expect it would break down along the lines of:

ALI membership: $x/year
Lab testing/engineering review: $x/design
License/royalty fee: $x/unit

Just trying to get a feel for how much of the cost delta really is just for the sticker, and how much is for changes needed in the design (or, alternatively, the manufacturer/dealer's perception of what the market will bear).

Sorry, I don't have anything to contribute. I just bought the document from ALI for a few hundred bucks.