Any PROs see a problem with this picture?

[maplepuck]

I am wanting to add a few additional outlets 120s and 240s, and one for a welder in my garage...
I went to determine my service amperage...and noticed no main shut off. (and no more room) so a new load center is in the future methinks.
the other side of the wall, just the meter.

I'm obviously going to have to pull a permit and have the PoCo perform a proper shut off for me to upgrade...
Question: despite my meager knowledge and ability; i would normally be apt to change the box on my own, but given the facts; should I hire a pro? and what can i expect in pitfalls? e.g. additional costs, actions, etc.

thanks for looking
D

 

[The Cobbler]

it appears there are some neutrals going to breakers

 

[oledude1952]

Really odd how that service passed inspection with no main breaker in the breaker box OR a main disconnect after the meter also....So really a pro needs to access the situation for you and this will need to be fixed. .

The breaker box looks like it is a 24 circuit unit. And the main service conductors feeding it looks in the pic, like they MAY be 2/0 copper conductors.

So you may get away with just changing the breaker box to a 200 amp / 40 circuit box with a main and re-using the service conductors .. MAYBE... .

Good Luck and JMO.

 

[Bert_]

It's a split buss panel. Top 6 double pole breakers are all mains, third one down on the left turns off the lower "lighting"section of the panel.

Must have quite a few 240V loads in the house already?

 

[mm08822]

it appears there are some neutrals going to breakers

they are all connected to 2 pole cb's - so 240vac ckts. Old enough where re-identifying whites was not required.

They would be re-identified during service upgrade.

 

[mm08822]

Really odd how that service passed inspection with no main breaker in the breaker box OR a main disconnect after the meter also....So really a pro needs to access the situation for you and this will need to be fixed. .

The breaker box looks like it is a 24 circuit unit. And the main service conductors feeding it looks in the pic, like they MAY be 2/0 copper conductors.

So you may get away with just changing the breaker box to a 200 amp / 40 circuit box with a main and re-using the service conductors .. MAYBE... .

Good Luck and JMO.

It's a split buss panel as Bert stated. Telling tale is the 2 black conductors from the cb mentioned to the connections on the bottom of bottom panel buss.

6 throws of hand is considered a legal disconnect which the top 3 cb's left and 3 right provide.

Would need to check loads to be sure, but it looks as you thought: change box to 200 amp main / 40 circuit will work.

Probably just needs 2 additional grd rods.

 

[maplepuck]

It's a split buss panel. Top 6 double pole breakers are all mains, third one down on the left turns off the lower "lighting"section of the panel.

Must have quite a few 240V loads in the house already?

good eye, and thanks for the straightening out. everything electric in this 1980 bungalow...the only natural gas is from me and the dog...cant get anything to run on that except for the females in the house

 

[oledude1952]

You guys have some good some ZOOM on your PC's to see the pics of the breakers that well. Good call....

 

[theoldwizard1]

It's a split buss panel. Top 6 double pole breakers are all mains, third one down on the left turns off the lower "lighting"section of the panel.

Why does such a panel even exist ?

Must have quite a few 240V loads in the house already?

There are 7, not including the one that feed the "lighting" section. 2 of them are in the lighting section.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I'm obviously going to have to pull a permit and have the PoCo perform a proper shut off for me to upgrade...

Depends on your location. Does the PoCo require an inspector to sign off ?

Question: despite my meager knowledge and ability; i would normally be apt to change the box on my own, but given the facts; should I hire a pro? and what can i expect in pitfalls? e.g. additional costs, actions, etc.

I think Henry Ford said, "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are probably right !"

Any new box will require a ground bar and that ground bar will have to be properly connected to a properly installed ground rod. This could be a DIY job, IF YOU ARE COMFORTABLE ! A pro would knock it out in under 4 hours, assuming no problems installed the ground rod(s).

Hint, the new box will be longer. You CAN mounted sideways if you want and then the wires will likely reach all of the breakers. If you want it mounted vertical, some of the wires might not be long enough. It is legal to splice on a "pigtail" inside of the box using an appropriate connector !

 

[theoldwizard1]

it appears there are some neutrals going to breakers

Time to get new glasses ! Those are 240V loads so black is L1 and white is L2. Use of a white insulated conductor is allowed if it "Romex" type cable. Not a bad idea to use a red Sharpie or a piece of red tape on those wires for all of us "apprentices" !

 

[mm08822]

Depends on your location. Does the PoCo require an inspector to sign off ?



I think Henry Ford said, "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are probably right !"

Any new box will require a ground bar and that ground bar will have to be properly connected to a properly installed ground rod. This could be a DIY job, IF YOU ARE COMFORTABLE ! A pro would knock it out in under 4 hours, assuming no problems installed the ground rod(s).

Hint, the new box will be longer. You CAN mounted sideways if you want and then the wires will likely reach all of the breakers. If you want it mounted vertical, some of the wires might not be long enough. It is legal to splice on a "pigtail" inside of the box using an appropriate connector !

The main service panel can have grds and neutrals on the neutral bar. A dedicated grd bar not necessary but nothing prohibiting it.

The grounding electrode conductor is to connect the service neutral block to earth.

As long as height of new main cb is below 6'7", panel can be raised up to gain more free conductor length in panel.

Most panels in US can not be mounted horizontally. Breakers must not be able to be turned on in the downward direction.

 

[dscheidt]

Why does such a panel even exist ?
.

Split bus panels are no longer made. They were used because a main breaker is expensive, and throwing a few breakers isn't that hard. They're confusing, and don't make much sense given a main breaker is now pretty cheap.

 

[Bert_]

Why does such a panel even exist ?

Breakers bigger than 60A were much more expensive. A 200A breaker would have more than doubled the price of a panel. A split buss panel really isn't a bad design. Less parts and connections that could fail.

There are 7, not including the one that feed the "lighting" section. 2 of them are in the lighting section.

It's obvious there are (7) double pole breakers. I was wondering if they are all actually being used.

 

[ford33]

I learned something new today. I never heard of a split bus panel or knew how it would work. Thanks, for sharing.

 

[checkthisout]

I am wanting to add a few additional outlets 120s and 240s, and one for a welder in my garage...
I went to determine my service amperage...and noticed no main shut off. (and no more room) so a new load center is in the future methinks.
the other side of the wall, just the meter.

I'm obviously going to have to pull a permit and have the PoCo perform a proper shut off for me to upgrade...
Question: despite my meager knowledge and ability; i would normally be apt to change the box on my own, but given the facts; should I hire a pro? and what can i expect in pitfalls? e.g. additional costs, actions, etc.

thanks for looking
D

You have room. Just convert those breakers on the bottom there that are singles but taking up two spaces into doubles.

The 4 singles on the right can be grouped into two spaces freeing up 2 spaces for a 240V or one 240 and 2 120V.

The two breakers in the lower left can be changed to doubles allowing you to add two 120V circuits or one 240V circuit.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

You have room. Just convert those breakers on the bottom there that are singles but taking up two spaces into doubles.

The 4 singles on the right can be grouped into two spaces freeing up 2 spaces for a 240V or one 240 and 2 120V.

The two breakers in the lower left can be changed to doubles allowing you to add two 120V circuits or one 240V circuit.

Good catch
At the lake I used some Square D 15 amp single pole double throw breakers. So now I have an abundance of 15 amp standard SD breakers to spare. I don’t know what the OP’s breakers are maybe his manufacturer has a similar option.

 

[maplepuck]

Good catch
At the lake I used some Square D 15 amp single pole double throw breakers. So now I have an abundance of 15 amp standard SD breakers to spare. I don’t know what the OP’s breakers are maybe his manufacturer has a similar option.

the box is a bryant; haven't pulled the breakers yet. i will look into compatible single pole double throw breakers.
thank you

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

They are out there

 

[TRWham]

Cutler-Hammer BR breakers are classified for use in at least some Bryant panels. I would check into that. Be careful adding loads down in the lighting section. You might push the limit of the breaker and conductors feeding it.

 

[Bert_]

Be careful adding loads down in the lighting section. You might push the limit of the breaker and conductors feeding it.

This^
The lighting section is probably fed with a 60A breaker. Large loads should be in the "main" section. No tandems are allowed up there though since you can have no more than 6 breakers up there.

Looks like someone already ran a 50a circuit from the lighting section, not that great...

 

[mm08822]

Op, need a good picture of the panel label. It shows accessories details, # circuit permitted, wire sizes, etc.

This panel may or may not be able to use twins or only a certain qty in specific positions.

Personally, I would change it out to have more space available for future, 1 main cb, no worry of overloading lighting buss/breaker.

 

[Jim greengo]

it appears there are some neutrals going to breakers

Those are 240v circuits,somebody forgot to put black tape on the wires.

 

[Jim greengo]

Really odd how that service passed inspection with no main breaker in the breaker box OR a main disconnect after the meter also....So really a pro needs to access the situation for you and this will need to be fixed. .

The breaker box looks like it is a 24 circuit unit. And the main service conductors feeding it looks in the pic, like they MAY be 2/0 copper conductors.

So you may get away with just changing the breaker box to a 200 amp / 40 circuit box with a main and re-using the service conductors .. MAYBE... .

Good Luck and JMO.

Looks like split buss.

 

[Jim greengo]

Depends on your location. Does the PoCo require an inspector to sign off ?



I think Henry Ford said, "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are probably right !"

Any new box will require a ground bar and that ground bar will have to be properly connected to a properly installed ground rod. This could be a DIY job, IF YOU ARE COMFORTABLE ! A pro would knock it out in under 4 hours, assuming no problems installed the ground rod(s).

Hint, the new box will be longer. You CAN mounted sideways if you want and then the wires will likely reach all of the breakers. If you want it mounted vertical, some of the wires might not be long enough. It is legal to splice on a "pigtail" inside of the box using an appropriate connector !

You're thinking of a sub panel

 

[rburke65]

When I was rowing houses, there was no code to tape up the 240v two conductor Rome’s with black tape so this my have been an older install.

 

[Norcal]

Depends on your location. Does the PoCo require an inspector to sign off ?



I think Henry Ford said, "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are probably right !"

Any new box will require a ground bar and that ground bar will have to be properly connected to a properly installed ground rod. This could be a DIY job, IF YOU ARE COMFORTABLE ! A pro would knock it out in under 4 hours, assuming no problems installed the ground rod(s).

Hint, the new box will be longer. You CAN mounted sideways if you want and then the wires will likely reach all of the breakers. If you want it mounted vertical, some of the wires might not be long enough. It is legal to splice on a "pigtail" inside of the box using an appropriate connector !

It is not code compliant under the NEC to mount a panel horizontally as when a breaker is mounted vertically, ON must be up, a horizontal panel will have 1 row with ON being down, it is allowed in Canada though. See NEC Art. 240.81.

 

[Jim greengo]

The main service panel can have grds and neutrals on the neutral bar. A dedicated grd bar not necessary but nothing prohibiting it.

The grounding electrode conductor is to connect the service neutral block to earth.

As long as height of new main cb is below 6'7", panel can be raised up to gain more free conductor length in panel.

Most panels in US can not be mounted horizontally. Breakers must not be able to be turned on in the downward direction.

Not all factory installed main breakers break/reset horizontally.

 

[Bert_]

If a breaker is vertical, then off must be down. If the breaker is horizontal then it does not matter. This applies to all breakers, not just the main.