Upgrading sockets... SK vs. MAC?

[Handyandy23]

There is such a thing as liking things just because you find them appealing.

An Omega or Doxa will tell time just as well as a Timex of Casio, but some folks prefer a nice watch and are willing to spend the extra money for the little bit of gain.

Perhaps the quality differences are minute or very small, and cost double or triple. There is a point of diminishing returns.

I bought Snap-on and Mac sockets because I wanted them. That's it. My SK and Blue-point sockets worked fine, but I just wanted the premium sockets. It was worth the extra money to me. Maybe the plating is just a little better. Or the broaching is just a hair better, or the hex engagement is a little tighter. I had absolutely no justification other than I thought they looked nice, and were the highest quality. I wanted them, I could afford them, I bought them. End of story. I don't need to justify a purchase beyond that.

My beef with cheap sockets has always been chrome or finish issues. Chrome peeling is a very dangerous and annoying problem. I have cut my hands on peeled chrome on Craftsman and various other cheap sockets. I threw them away. It was worth buying truck brand sockets so that if I had an issue, they would handle it right away.

Not everything is about how cheap you can get something and still get away with it.

Luxury goods have always cost a premium. Some people will never see it, understand it, or want it.

This is very reasonable and understandable to me. If you like to buy nice things for yourself because they are nice and make you feel good that's great reasoning IMO.

The problem I find though is most people don't want to admit that and want to rationalize their purchase somehow. Which is usually in the form of "brand A is sooooo much better quality and works so much better than brand X garbage" and trying to make it into some sort of functionality argument. It's certainly true in some instances. But in most it's not.

I can see flaking chrome as being annoying and possibly dangerous. But at the same time there are lots of 'mid grade' sockets available at a fraction of the price that do the same thing as the expensive ones. I can understand how they are nicer though in some ways, and why people would want them. Heck, I want them, but with only so much money to go around, people have to pick and choose which 'luxury' items to buy.

 

[sberry]

There is such a thing as liking things just because you find them appealing.

It doesn't really apply to you, wont be a deal breaker. In my own case it would have been a 30K investment in sockets, maybe more.
But to a guy applying to a lube tech job I gotta wonder if the prospective employer gave a **** and where this matters? Hi priced tools are a liability to this guy as they are most people.
I usually don't reply,,, usually ,, to threads where its a clear want and cost isn't a factor, to a guy with 100's hanging out of his pockets return on investment probably isn't on the top of the list.
But,,,, I have used all these tools for a long time under abusive conditions, supervised another 50,000 hours, maybe more with men using them, some of the best mechanics I know use simple stuff, a couple have some snap stuff they bought for 20 when the guy paid 200 for it went south, some have a mix, some nicer stuff in the hi use spots. A couple use the same Sears stuff ort parts of it they started out with.
I am all for buying good but don't leave the impression spending big gives the guy an instant golden arm. I bought some better when starting out but it was a different world then. Didn't have the choices and so much on the shelf as we have today, some places sell tools 24 hrs a day.
I bought some with the intention of upgrades and find myself using the same stuff 15 years later, some more. I can say this for a fact,,, noi one comes in and closely examines the tools I use, when other masters work out of my shop none complain and comment that we need better stuff. Some remark, this is better and easier than working out of my own tool box and one of the best places they ever work in terms of ease and function.

 

[noid]

There is such a thing as liking things just because you find them appealing.

An Omega or Doxa will tell time just as well as a Timex of Casio, but some folks prefer a nice watch and are willing to spend the extra money for the little bit of gain.

Perhaps the quality differences are minute or very small, and cost double or triple. There is a point of diminishing returns.

I bought Snap-on and Mac sockets because I wanted them. That's it. My SK and Blue-point sockets worked fine, but I just wanted the premium sockets. It was worth the extra money to me. Maybe the plating is just a little better. Or the broaching is just a hair better, or the hex engagement is a little tighter. I had absolutely no justification other than I thought they looked nice, and were the highest quality. I wanted them, I could afford them, I bought them. End of story. I don't need to justify a purchase beyond that.

My beef with cheap sockets has always been chrome or finish issues. Chrome peeling is a very dangerous and annoying problem. I have cut my hands on peeled chrome on Craftsman and various other cheap sockets. I threw them away. It was worth buying truck brand sockets so that if I had an issue, they would handle it right away.

Not everything is about how cheap you can get something and still get away with it.

Luxury goods have always cost a premium. Some people will never see it, understand it, or want it.

Nothing wrong with doing what feels good.

Although, I would say you're extrapolating quality from branding and price.

Both Snap on and Mac (Stanley) are publicly traded companies; they have a duty to share holders to maximize profit, and branding plays a huge role in that.

If it feels good because you want high quality, then instead of extrapolating; I would say objectively comparing specific characteristics would better indicate what is 'high quality'.

If its not about high quality, but rather perception, and branding, I would say its reasonable to assume that:

Maybe the plating is just a little better or worse. Or the broaching is just a hair better or worse, or the hex engagement is a little tighter or looser. I had absolutely no justification other than I thought they looked nice, and were the highest quality or not the highest quality.

 

[sberry]

The problem I find though is most people don't want to admit that and want to rationalize their purchase somehow. Which is usually in the form of "brand A is sooooo much better quality and works so much better than brand X garbage" and trying to make it into some sort of functionality argument. It's certainly true in some instances. But in most it's not.

This is along the same line as my point. I aint talking to polishers, collectors or even experts but to the guy comes here asking and seems confused. I am fine using a 5 or 10 thousand dollar welders but to the guy asking a beginner question much of my experience doesn't apply, doesn't get the right machine for him. It might be correct advice, one is better or more capable but it using good solid value added sales advice for the guy asking.
Ask me when I was 20 and would have got different answer 40 years later at 60 and 40 years of innovation, changing markets etc.

 

[PJNJ]

OP - I have some Mac in 1/4 and full sets of SK in the 1/4 and 3/8 green blow molded cases along with some older SK sockets and ratchets. The Mac is used from flea markets and the SK was purchased new.

Both have been fine and work well. SK appears to be the lower cost option but either is a good choice.

 

[dr_clyde]

Ok, a few things.

OP asked about SK and Mac. Both reasonably priced, good quality USA tools. I have both, gave my experience. If he has a truck stop by and likes the Macs, go for it. They're fine sockets. I have a full set of 1/2" drive chrome and impact. No problems. Ever. I also have a couple set of the SK. Only ever broke 1. I spec'd SK sockets to stock the maintenance toolbox at a plant I used to work in. They're great sockets for the money.

I only brought up SO and luxury goods to make a point.

Sberry, you must have one hell of a socket collection if it would take 30k to replace with mid to high end sockets. I feel like that is a huge exaggeration with intention to mislead. A complete master set from Snap-on (arguably the most expensive) is 32k, and that is a "complete" tool set, sockets, ratchets, wrenches, screwdrivers, pullers, toolbox, the works. This is not a good way to buy tools, and is being used for comparison. No one who is actually looking to buy a full setup of sockets is going to buy this, or should they. The smart money buys on sales, BOGOs, and makes deals with the driver.

I have a pretty complete set of hand tools, and I know there is no way in hell I have 30k in sockets, and I have at least 3 sets of good quality sockets.

A complete setup from SK would be a few grand, tops. Figure a few hundred each drive size, 1/4"-3/4" maybe 2 grand? With the 3/4" being almost half that? Ok, set up a shop, a service truck, a couple boxes for employees/help. Say 4 sets of each common drive? You're still at only 8 grand. Brand new. 30k. Sheesh.


Nowhere have I implied that buying nice tools makes you a better mechanic. I you think buying a Snap-on socket set will make you a better mechanic, you are sorely mistaken. My personal experience is that the best mechanics I know happen to have nice tools, but their being good mechanics is not caused by their nice tools. They just have built nice collections after being in the trades for 40 or 50 years. I've also seen some truly great work being done with some properly **** tools.

I have not extrapolated much from branding and price. My experience has been that things that are of high quality tend to be more money. Not always, but usually. Nice things cost more, that's just the reality of the world. Once in a while, you'll find something that is good enough for 90% of things at a price that most people can afford. Old craftsman fit this pretty well. But the quality declined sharply and they lost a lot of customers. Once you could buy a similar quality tool from HF with the same warranty for 1/3 the price, buying Cman no longer made sense.

I really don't care about brands. I buy based on quality first, service second, and price third. I happen to have a lot of Snap-on because the dealer I have is very good, and we have a good working relationship. More than once, he's driven across town to sell me one socket or something to get me out of a jam. I've been buying Snap-On since my first job wrenching in high school, and have built my collection over many years. Yes, they are expensive. But not THAT expensive. We're talking a couple hundred dollar items, a few at a time over decades. It was more about convenience than anything. If there was an SK or wright truck that stopped by, I'd probably have a **** ton of them. A guy stops by once a week and sells me tools. I like him and his merchandise, so I buy it.

I have most common US brands of sockets in my collection. My experience has been that they all work to some degree, some better, some worse.

If I was looking to buy it all again, I'd buy Wright. But I have what I have and I like it. I may buy some Wright in the future just to see how I like it.

 

[buckwheat_la]

This is very reasonable and understandable to me. If you like to buy nice things for yourself because they are nice and make you feel good that's great reasoning IMO.

The problem I find though is most people don't want to admit that and want to rationalize their purchase somehow. Which is usually in the form of "brand A is sooooo much better quality and works so much better than brand X garbage" and trying to make it into some sort of functionality argument. It's certainly true in some instances. But in most it's not.

I can see flaking chrome as being annoying and possibly dangerous. But at the same time there are lots of 'mid grade' sockets available at a fraction of the price that do the same thing as the expensive ones. I can understand how they are nicer though in some ways, and why people would want them. Heck, I want them, but with only so much money to go around, people have to pick and choose which 'luxury' items to buy.

This all day long. Perfect sense.

 

[Legion Prime]

Was there any significant difference in the thickness and/or head width of those two wrench open ends?

Nothing significant, the Mac wrenches are on top and the Craftsman are below, 13mm on the left 12mm on the right from the actual tool sets used.

Fair enough on the wrenches I guess. We are talking sockets here, and to my point, if you YouTube it, you can find many videos where Gearwrench has withstood as good (or better) than SK

I didn't say anything about Gearwrench, they're great tools and I have their full metric set in my box. I bought them as soon as they came out I thought they were such a great product and use them to this day. I'm simply giving an example where different brands of tools perform the same job differently, or not. OP has Craftsman and is considering SK or Mac. I had a fastener that demonstrated that a Mac tool did the job the Craftsman could not. Does that translate into every other product line? Not necessarily but it does illustrate there was a fastener that did show a clear difference in performance between the two brands. Do I still use my Craftsman wrenches? Of course, I have drawerfulls of them. Both SK & Mac are fantastic options and Gearwrench is as well, I have and would continue to buy tools from any and all of them without reservation. As far as SK vs Mac I'd say that's a wallet decision. If you can afford the Mac then I can't think of any reason not to buy them, if the budget is a little tight then I'd be just as happy with the SK as with the Mac. If OP wants to consider Gearwrench as well I can't think of any reason not to buy them. Ultimately OP doesn't seem to be examining any bad options and his wallet will likely be the determining factor.

 

[Wamsutta]

I'd love to hear them. Well, atleast the objective stuff.

I hope it doesn't involve warranty, or ease of purchase.

1. They narrow down the drive end on some sizes
2. They narrow down the fastener end on some sizes
3. The wall thickness is the thinnest of any brand
4. The broach depth is generous
5. The interior of the sockets are very clean and smooth
6. The detents are well machined of uniform size and located in the perfect spot

 

[sberry]

I havnt counted but I likely have 1000 sockets. I have given some away though. I probably got 100, maybe, more on my service truck. I bought the big Sears set in 80, biggest one they had. Have bought a couple more large sets in the 80/90 period during a demand and several other sets a set or 2 at a time, probably 2 or 3 x what came in the huge Sears set, not sure and lost count.
How much was the new 11/32 you bought recently, last I know Snaps close to about 30 a piece. Last I bought from the truck was 30$ for a 7/16 end wrench, bought a 5/8 at the time and about the same. Seems my Bud said 32 for a deep 1/4 8mm and that is a long time ago. Those are for small tools, doesnt even address the cost of the 3/4 drive, probably close to 75 of those.

 

[bpankratz]

Williams USA

 

[sberry]

But, we are slightly different in the respect I am not buying some Wright tools just to see how I like them. 8 grand is probably about right from SK but they are 10 a piece, about 1/3 the Snaps.
I bought a single SK a while back, maybe 10 yrs, was a fussy ******, a shallow 16MM 6 point and seems it was a little over 8 bucks and I had good relationship with the vendor.

 

[dr_clyde]

I havnt counted but I likely have 1000 sockets. I have given some away though. I probably got 100, maybe, more on my service truck. I bought the big Sears set in 80, biggest one they had. Have bought a couple more large sets in the 80/90 period during a demand and several other sets a set or 2 at a time, probably 2 or 3 x what came in the huge Sears set, not sure and lost count.
How much was the new 11/32 you bought recently, last I know Snaps close to about 30 a piece. Last I bought from the truck was 30$ for a 7/16 end wrench, bought a 5/8 at the time and about the same. Seems my Bud said 32 for a deep 1/4 8mm and that is a long time ago. Those are for small tools, doesnt even address the cost of the 3/4 drive, probably close to 75 of those.

Individual socket and wrench prices are not the same as set pricing. Nor does it take into account buying bulk, or BOGO deals. Most of the time it goes something like buy the deeps get the shallows free or buy metric get SAE.

If I was setting up a shop and needed to buy thousands of sockets, I would be buying through Snap-on industrial, where you get a substantial discount for volume. I also know when you walk on a dealers truck and say you're going to buy 1000 sockets, you don't pay retail. They are much more willing to give you a better price if you're buying large volumes.

My SO guy stops by this afternoon. I'll ask what he would do in a situation like this.

 

[sberry]

While I under stand about bulk and individual the price isn't that much better on sets. I just looked at Snap website and am surprised actually, prices have been fairly stable. between 20 and 30 a piece. But,,, I didn't buy 1000 sockets all at once, not sure how many small operations would, most buy as needed. I bought most of it over a period of about 10 years or so and another batch somewhere before 2000 or so.
Bulk deals of a 1000 also industrial doesn't apply to this crowd either.

 

[dr_clyde]

While I under stand about bulk and individual the price isn't that much better on sets. I just looked at Snap website and am surprised actually, prices have been fairly stable. between 20 and 30 a piece. But,,, I didn't buy 1000 sockets all at once, not sure how many small operations would, most buy as needed. I bought most of it over a period of about 10 years or so and another batch somewhere before 2000 or so.
Bulk deals of a 1000 also industrial doesn't apply to this crowd either.

The website price doesn't reflect driver deals or any sales. It's a poor idea to buy sockets from Snap on at full retail. I have bought most of my sockets on some sort of sale or BOGO.

Again, these are the most expensive sockets commonly available. They are not the economy option. Never have been, never will be.

If you're the kind of guy that actually needs thousands of sockets, the truck brands are probably not for you.

Most guys aren't supplying other people or more than one box.

 

[regguy1]

Checkout sunex sockets, I just bought a set of the impact flex sockets the really good quality are chrome moly steel reasonably priced

 

[Stooge]

SK. why? because I just happen to like SK

Plus they are a good price. Metric chrome sockets are SK, SAE chrome sockets are Wright, and I like them both. neither have disappointed me on either rusty *** daily driver metric bolts, or 80+yr old rusty *** sae bolts. I think any socket set in that price point is going to do what you need it to do regardless of who's name is on it.

 

[sberry]

Nowhere have I implied that buying nice tools makes you a better mechanic.

No you didn't,,, I said I hate to leave the impression that it makes much real difference.

Most guys aren't supplying other people or more than one box.

Agree exactly,,, hence the industrial and bulk deals to not imply. Must be some drivers may be charging a premium. The prices I see on the site are less than on the truck some time ago.
When I bought my first big set I took the list from the Sears catalog. It was 3K or 3500 then and I went to the truck, was about 1/3 the way thru it at 14K then. That was in 80.
You would be correct that I buy for more than my own box. At the time I was contracting, I supplied every tool. I semi retired too early,,, man its tuff trying to get back to it.

 

[noid]

I have not extrapolated much from branding and price. My experience has been that things that are of high quality tend to be more money.

Sounds like an oxymoron to me.

You either extrapolate quality from price or you don't. If you do, it can be to varying degrees.

I really don't care about brands. I buy based on quality first, service second, and price third. I happen to have a lot of Snap-on because the dealer I have is very good, and we have a good working relationship. More than once, he's driven across town to sell me one socket or something to get me out of a jam. I've been buying Snap-On since my first job wrenching in high school, and have built my collection over many years. Yes, they are expensive. But not THAT expensive. We're talking a couple hundred dollar items, a few at a time over decades. It was more about convenience than anything. If there was an SK or wright truck that stopped by, I'd probably have a **** ton of them. A guy stops by once a week and sells me tools. I like him and his merchandise, so I buy it.

Proportionately your focusing on the service most, but ill take you at your word that quality is first in your mind.

Has anything objectively driven your decision towards deciding quality of Brand X over Y? Or has it all been subjective?

1. They narrow down the drive end on some sizes
2. They narrow down the fastener end on some sizes
3. The wall thickness is the thinnest of any brand
4. The broach depth is generous
5. The interior of the sockets are very clean and smooth
6. The detents are well machined of uniform size and located in the perfect spot

1 and 2. As do many brands, but objectively the zeal sockets are the thinnest at both ends. This is because they aren't constraining that line of sockets to ISO limitations.

3. Factually untrue, zeal is thinner. Same reason as point 1 and 2.

4. This sounds subjective, what constitutes generous?

5. Objective when comparing trash to decent sockets, but rather subjective otherwise.

6. Objectively, is there something different they are doing with their detent, or are you just commending them for their QA?

 

[sberry]

I got nothing against nice tools. I think people should buy them if they want to. Only a handful of them made any real difference. Some of the stuff I thought was cheap and didn't expect much from have lasted as well as the brand. My "good" stuff is worn out too. Especially Klein stuff. Dull now. Some of the discount things are still sharp, I find myself reaching for condition vs brand. New sharp HF beats dull Klein.
Same for wrenches, I find myself reaching for features rather than "quality". Last time I reached for a brand wrench was a snap and wanted flank drive for some fussy nut, was just the right thing for the job.
I have set of flank combo in small sizes, they been good, they worth the money over the years especially early on where I was catching up on really old stuff. I used them regular for first 10 years, I put them with more specialty wrenches today where they less likely to be lost.

 

[dr_clyde]

Sounds like an oxymoron to me.

You either extrapolate quality from price or you don't. If you do, it can be to varying degrees.



Proportionately your focusing on the service most, but ill take you at your word that quality is first in your mind.

Has anything objectively driven your decision towards deciding quality of Brand X over Y? Or has it all been subjective?

If something doesn't do what I want, what difference does th ep


1 and 2. As do many brands, but objectively the zeal sockets are the thinnest at both ends. This is because they aren't constraining that line of sockets to ISO limitations.

3. Factually untrue, zeal is thinner. Same reason as point 1 and 2.

4. This sounds subjective, what constitutes generous?

5. Objective when comparing trash to decent sockets, but rather subjective otherwise.

6. Objectively, is there something different they are doing with their detent, or are you just commending them for their QA?

Extrapolation is looking at price first and assuming quality purely based on price. Thing A costs more than thing B, therefore thing A must be better. I do not do this. If I find out thing B is of superior quality for less money, wins all around. My experience, which is not extrapolation, is the things that I own that are of high quality, tend to be more expensive than other options. I do not shop based on price first.

Obviously there are the occasions where you can find something of superior or equivalent quality that is less. My work boots are a decent example of this. I wear boots that cost me approximately $150. They last as long or longer and are as comfortable as the $300 boots I had previously owned. Price is not always indicative of quality.

The only way to be sure of the quality of an item is to use it. Inspection can tell you a lot, but the only way to tell is to use it.

I can tell you my Starrett tap wrench is a higher quality than the inexpensive one from the auto parts store. I know this because I have both, and have used both. The Starrett costs more, but that's not why I bought it. I bought it because my other Starrett tools are very high quality and work very well. I extrapolated based on experience with the tools that company makes, not from the cost of the tool.

I extrapolate from reputation and experience. I really don't care what something costs. If I want it bad enough, I'll find a way to get it.

VALUE and COST are two different things. If you can use a cheap set of Craftsman sockets and get the work done for your uses, you got good VALUE out of them. SO, Mac, Matco, Wright, SK, Proto, ect, would be money wasted. But if you have enough issues with the inexpensive tools, they are not a good value anymore. I could be given FREE tools and they could be a bad value.

As for service, I get better service from my Matco dealer, but I don't buy near as many tools from him. He's a better guy all around, but I have been disappointed by quite a few Matco tools in the past. All the good service in the world won't make up for tools that don't perform.

It all comes down to the balance of quality, service and cost. If you can get these factors to line up to your liking, buy the thing, whatever it is.

 

[sberry]

Most "issues" I see with inexpensive tools is mostly speculative. My experience from beating the **** out of them, from others beating it out of them has been positive. Most of it lasted longer than out expectations so much that it has been blended with the rest of it and now we cant tell the difference. If I bust 5 Sears sockets it doesn't make the other 995 of them faulty and worth the investment so I might not break another one.
Hoarders live with this same fear. They throw out one thing, a rubber band, 2 years later they need one so they never throw another away. It aint real math. The fear is greater than the actual loss. I have busted about 1/2 dozen cheap end wrenches over the years, hammering against them with impacts. Didn't bother warranting them, a loss of about 5 dollars. I lost a snap, 30$ I try to keep the 5$ in perspective.

 

[dr_clyde]

Most "issues" I see with inexpensive tools is mostly speculative. My experience from beating the **** out of them, from others beating it out of them has been positive. Most of it lasted longer than out expectations so much that it has been blended with the rest of it and now we cant tell the difference. If I bust 5 Sears sockets it doesn't make the other 995 of them faulty and worth the investment so I might not break another one.
Hoarders live with this same fear. They throw out one thing, a rubber band, 2 years later they need one so they never throw another away. It aint real math. The fear is greater than the actual loss. I have busted about 1/2 dozen cheap end wrenches over the years, hammering against them with impacts. Didn't bother warranting them, a loss of about 5 dollars. I lost a snap, 30$ I try to keep the 5$ in perspective.

This is a valid and good perspective. Especially if all you care about is whether or not the tool functions.

I would ask that you consider the perspective of someone who views tools as MORE than a means to an end. I take great pride in my tool collection. High quality tools made by legacy companies who take pride in their products. I find great joy in using them.

I do not get any pride of ownership from cheap objects. Not just tools. I try to buy the best quality things I can afford. I find they are longer lasting, more comfortable, better engineered, typically work better, are better looking, and all around more pleasurable to own.

Sometimes the reasons are more complicated. For example, I bought a new wallet from a local leather worker a few weeks ago. It cost me $110. It does absolutely nothing better than the $25 dollar wallet from Walmart. But it was worth it to me because A, the quality of the wallet is OUTSTANDING, and B, I'm supporting a local craftsman in his trade.

I also realize this perspective is not for everyone, and that most people fall somewhere in the middle. This makes it hard to apply advice to the common guy.

Please understand that some people want nice things purely because they are nice. You cannot apply the logic of "the cheap thing works just as good". That's not WHY we are buying the nice thing.

 

[noid]

Extrapolation is looking at price first and assuming quality purely based on price. Thing A costs more than thing B, therefore thing A must be better. I do not do this. If I find out thing B is of superior quality for less money, wins all around. My experience, which is not extrapolation, is the things that I own that are of high quality, tend to be more expensive than other options. I do not shop based on price first.

Obviously there are the occasions where you can find something of superior or equivalent quality that is less. My work boots are a decent example of this. I wear boots that cost me approximately $150. They last as long or longer and are as comfortable as the $300 boots I had previously owned. Price is not always indicative of quality.

The only way to be sure of the quality of an item is to use it. Inspection can tell you a lot, but the only way to tell is to use it.

I can tell you my Starrett tap wrench is a higher quality than the inexpensive one from the auto parts store. I know this because I have both, and have used both. The Starrett costs more, but that's not why I bought it. I bought it because my other Starrett tools are very high quality and work very well. I extrapolated based on experience with the tools that company makes, not from the cost of the tool.

I extrapolate from reputation and experience. I really don't care what something costs. If I want it bad enough, I'll find a way to get it.

VALUE and COST are two different things. If you can use a cheap set of Craftsman sockets and get the work done for your uses, you got good VALUE out of them. SO, Mac, Matco, Wright, SK, Proto, ect, would be money wasted. But if you have enough issues with the inexpensive tools, they are not a good value anymore. I could be given FREE tools and they could be a bad value.

As for service, I get better service from my Matco dealer, but I don't buy near as many tools from him. He's a better guy all around, but I have been disappointed by quite a few Matco tools in the past. All the good service in the world won't make up for tools that don't perform.

It all comes down to the balance of quality, service and cost. If you can get these factors to line up to your liking, buy the thing, whatever it is.

If its a matter of extrapolating based on reputation and experience; wouldn't that be entirely subjective?

At best we are talking anecdotal statements and a small test pool for empirical experience. The former driving the latter. You can understand how that is self perpetuating right?

Certainly wouldn't pass any kind of scientific rigor.

Thats why I keep referring to objective vs subjective; if quality is of utmost importance than experimental data > empirical data.

 

[sberry]

I never said they shouldn't buy nice things. What I said was that there isn't as much real difference as perceived difference. I say if you want it buy it. I agree that is valid. The argument that I will give is when its presented as a fact that the Snap is worth 20x the price based on functionality especially for a part timer asking about his first set of wrenches.
I have a set, they were worth it but they were not my first and only. I didn't sacrifice other tools to get them. I have done this. Very rarely has it turned out to be clearly worth it. In some case they were so specialized never did fully utilize it.
Being cheaper can be a huge asset, can have a lot now when its needed vs waiting.
My Grandmother saved for 2 months to get their first toaster and it lasted 3 or 4 years. Over the next 30 she bought 2 more. Sure,,, 1 last 40 and the others 15 but she only paid 20 a piece for the new ones, an hour wages.

 

[sberry]

At best we are talking anecdotal statements and a small test pool for empirical experience. The former driving the latter. You can understand how that is self perpetuating right?

This is about right.

 

[uncwstudent]

I love my SK sockets. They're functional. They're beautiful. They have a good warranty. I like them. Go with them!

 

[dr_clyde]

If its a matter of extrapolating based on reputation and experience; wouldn't that be entirely subjective?

At best we are talking anecdotal statements and a small test pool for empirical experience. The former driving the latter. You can understand how that is self perpetuating right?

Certainly wouldn't pass any kind of scientific rigor.

Thats why I keep referring to objective vs subjective; if quality is of utmost importance than experimental data > empirical data.

I have yet to see ANY testing by anyone that isn't subjective for hand tools.

What else do I have to go on other than my own experience? Surely I shouldn't trust marketing. No studies have been done by any independent parties.

 

[sberry]

We had a kid here that worked in a junkyard in CA. Had a couple sets of Kobalt wrenches he used for 4 years. Said they did everything he asked of them and were still good but was wondering if he should upgrade and to what.
We had a dozen opinions with a dozen different logics as to how his life would be improved if he bought 300$ wrenches. People would take him more serious, gonna save some skin, gonna make him a blazing streak, all kinds of nonsense to lobby for their favorite wrench.
Another come asking what was the best wrench cause he has delicate hands and didnt want a wrench going to break and hurt himself. Same thing. First case,, no one was going to pay him any more and the second the guy will hurt himself just as much with a HF as a Snap but he got a long list and why some expensive **** was better.
There were a few that bothered to get it right but plenty of fanboys come up with all kinds of nonsense. The kid was looking for reasoning, it wasn't a luxury pick.
As for experience,,, some of my own, a lot from others too, I have watched roustabouts uin the patch beating the snot out of a China wrench all afternoon with a 4# hammer. I broke one a while back, was out on the job, really didnt have the right tool and just said screw it and how far could it go and finally snapped the beam of an MIT 9/16 in half with the assistance of a pair of 440 Channellock's or 12 inch adjustable.
Most of my experience when I was out and about was that small shops didnt have enough,,,, not that they didnt have good enough but enough. I didnt really work in 1 man small welding shops with fussy owners but mostly hard heavy brutal work with men using company tools. The quality really very rarely a problem, the quanity yes and the fact that they were short often compounded the use or duty cycle with multiple men sharing and giving the stuff a workout no single user ever could.
I remember once I was in a shop building refule trucks, was pitiful and I got on the management about the tools. Dipstick comes back with a 15$ set of wrenches for the men and he spent 1300 on the snap truck and locked the **** in his office as he didnt want it broke or lost. Ha
Most of the time by the end of that didnt much care if I was fired but I even went to stores and charged tools to the owners. Once they guy was gone and we pretty much had it scattered already and he was going to fire me and the men sat right down. Had 6 men sharing a hammer in a fab shop.
I did this once where a guy would pack up about 3 large and take long weekend to gamble. When he wend would put his girlfriend in charge. She was about 10x as good as he was, she comes out and says,,, whats the problem. I said,,, this is pitiful, she says what do we need. Says,,,, I can see this and writes a check for 800 for new stuff. He comes back about Tuesday, sees some tools, breaks in a sweat, man we could hear it, she told him,,, that shop pays for your fukkin gambling.

 

[BDT/NWMN]

Choice between new current production tools from SK or MAC.

Do You work in a shop which is serviced by a well established MAC Dealer?

SK can be ordered from well established online retailers such as HJE.

In the future; It may be again possible to purchase SK tools from local retailers.

If the MAC Dealer were to pass away tomorrow; would someone be willing to resume His business?

Does MAC have a website to handle tool purchases or warranty claims?

My experience with SK online warranty on a couple 40 year old ratchets was outstanding. Repair kits were sent out at no charge.

Cards are on the table;;;; Your draw

 

[sberry]

Most of my SK is lost or mixed, I don't keep any of it in specific sets but have a couple ratchets remanned. Very good and don't beat them like we did when kids. I cant ever recall a broken SK socket. They would be on the top of my list for better tools, the cost is decent, not sure what kind of dealers they have anymore. They used to be in auto parts and some hwd stores as the premium store brand.
I rarely look at this stuff anymore though. Last real tools I bought were a couple dykes, 9's set of av snips and small set of metric wrenches at HF for my work van, still haven't used them.

 

[Professional Tool User]

Neither will be an upgrade over USA Craftsman. They will both be a waste of money in this case

+1 For sockets you can get away with using cheap ones. They don't break that often. Unless you can get used SK or Mac for dirt cheap, spend the extra money where it matters like on ratchets.

 

[noid]

I have yet to see ANY testing by anyone that isn't subjective for hand tools.

What else do I have to go on other than my own experience? Surely I shouldn't trust marketing. No studies have been done by any independent parties.

Have you tried looking?

This should get you started; picked at random from off the top of my head:

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=201468&showall=1

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73245

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=406931

 

[Jtels85]

Wow! I appreciate all of the responses to this post. I wasn’t expecting that many people to reply. I should add that I am NOT a pro. I’m DIY and a lot of my free time is spent working cars or other misc. things around the house. I buy most if not all of my tools online from eBay and Facebook Marketplace.

After heavy consideration, the MAC was just too costly and not readily available on eBay, new or used. That was single handedly the biggest reason why I chose SK. I purchased both the 1/4” and 3/8” drive sets in the blow mold cases and still spent less than $400 after shipping.

I am keeping my Craftsman and retiring all of it to around-the-house and traveling duty (junk yard, helping friends, etc). The SK will be primate used for any mechanical work going on in the garage.

 

[sberry]

If its sposed to be good it should be but I would really like to see some of that applied to a generic standard, say Stanley and China Cman and see how strong and how the cheap **** tests, then we could really compare it to really good tools.
I think I read some test where some of that was hell for strong but at some level duty cycle was a problem.
I have a road kit like a lot of guys but with some of the common wrenches and sockets I carry generic Olympia, some MIT type, some brand looks like a Cman, all were sold as singles and sets in farm stores.
I am not scared to buy a couple wrenches. Half a dozen times in my career had jobs where we hyper use common sizes and on some days bought half a dozen wrenches for the week we needed. I built half a dozen buildings, bought a couple 3/4 on some days I do the same **** with screwdrivers. Lots of times buy a new one or 2 to spread around so we not looking.
I am not usually working with others, don't have to carry a belt and buy a pair of something I need when I need them. I got probably 20 9/16 combo, standard stuff, another half a dozen specialty/off set, dbe, flank drive Snap of that size. I actually recognize them, some are somewhat unique but not lot of monetary value but old Sears with fine box is handy sometimes. Another one was an old box store called Olympia they made in 2 versions, a RP type and a thin I beam version that is fine and super tuff. I get a total sense of confidence when I pick it up.

 

[dr_clyde]

Cool test results.

I can get one, maybe 2 of those brands locally. Most are euro brands I would have to mail order.

 

[yellow wagon]

If you want excellent quality and an upgrade over Craftsman I would suggest Williams sockets. I was in the same boat as you and wanted to retire my aging Craftsman stuff. Ordered 2 sets of American made Williams from Zoro and was blown away...they are beautiful sockets for the price. And if you watch for coupons/discounts they are a really good deal.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Cool test results.

I can get one, maybe 2 of those brands locally. Most are euro brands I would have to mail order.

I would also prefer to see wear testing vs. destructive. Load for failure is X ft/lbs on average for size Y wrench. Load wrench X at 75% of failure load, 50000 times, in a jerking motion. That shows more value to me than when an adjustable wrench explodes. Most failures I have aren't at peak force, they're at 75% of peak force, for something that's been used daily for months/years, then it cracks under slightly above average force. I'd also like to see the wear pattern on the drive ends, I've worn out sockets from numerous brands. Not cracked or anything, just worn out using hand tools.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Wow! I appreciate all of the responses to this post. I wasn’t expecting that many people to reply. I should add that I am NOT a pro. I’m DIY and a lot of my free time is spent working cars or other misc. things around the house. I buy most if not all of my tools online from eBay and Facebook Marketplace.

After heavy consideration, the MAC was just too costly and not readily available on eBay, new or used. That was single handedly the biggest reason why I chose SK. I purchased both the 1/4” and 3/8” drive sets in the blow mold cases and still spent less than $400 after shipping.

I am keeping my Craftsman and retiring all of it to around-the-house and traveling duty (junk yard, helping friends, etc). The SK will be primate used for any mechanical work going on in the garage.

Enjoy your new tools and post them in the new tools arrival thread. Happy wrenching.

 

[Jtels85]

Enjoy your new tools and post them in the new tools arrival thread. Happy wrenching.

Thank you! I appreciate all of the responses and advice. Everyone was very insightful. I’m happy with my decision.