Upgrading 200amp service to 400 amp

[TTMotorsports]

So I'm upgrading my current service from 200 amp to 400amp so I can run 200amp sub panel in my new shop. The electrician that just checked out the job sent me a overpriced quote in my opinion and from what others have quoted over the phone. The existing panel and breakers are all in 100% working order. He said I need The panel, the larger riser , all new breakers/ 2nd 200 amp breaker has to be installed now. As well as all New water /gas bond/ground rods.

Would changing panel to 400 amp service really require changing all water and gas bond as well as new ground rods? That alone was almost $600.

Also current breakers are standard square d so why quoting new breakers at a tune of $400 plus $220 for 200 amp breaker for sub panel


Also why would the 200 amp subpanel breaker need to be installed when the panel is swapped out?

I'm no professional but I've done quite a bit of electrical work before but never a panel upgrade. I'm waiting on 3 more quotes to see what they say as well but they all said they will reuse breakers and existing wiring from meter to panel.

 

[Stuart in MN]

He may be including those things as a liability issue - no electrician wants to have callbacks after the project is done, so by replacing everything now he knows there aren't any old or deteriorated components that may come back to haunt him later.

It's not what you're asking, but are you sure you need a 400 amp service and a 200 amp sub? Have you done a load calculation? I'm not saying you don't need one, just that it's a good idea to make sure before spending a lot of money. Unless you have a lot of high powered equipment that's all running at the same time it may not be necessary.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

What are you running in the shop that requires 200a?

 

[TTMotorsports]

2 5 ton ac units. 15hp rotary converter. 10hp compressor. Cnc plasma cutter. 2 lifts. 3 welding stations and a powder coating oven. If I have oven on cnc cutter going. Compressor and ac units I'm at well over 100amps not counting lighting computers etc.

The shop is 4000 sq ft welding and fabrication shop.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Is this a one man shop?

Have you checked with your PoCo about that 10HP motor? Many PoCos have limits on motor hp size...

 

[gungatim]

around here it was drastically cheaper to have the poco run a seperate line from the pole to a 2nd meter on the outbuilding to run 200amp. it's an extra monthly bill, and I forget if the rate was cheaper or a little more expensive but saved thousands when we did my FIL's 50x100 shop a few years back.

 

[TTMotorsports]

I tried to get a second meter but county wont let you have 2 meters on my lot so I'm stuck doing it this way. If I could get a second meter would save me close to 5 grand.

Usually 2 sometime 3 guys working at once.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I tried to get a second meter but county wont let you have 2 meters on my lot so I'm stuck doing it this way. If I could get a second meter would save me close to 5 grand.

Usually 2 sometime 3 guys working at once.

It may save you on the front end but meter fees add up over time.

 

[TTMotorsports]

That is correct. My current shop electric bill is same as my home but I'm using 40% less power

 

[TTMotorsports]

But anyways. Do you need to upsize bonding wire gauge or ground rod wize when going to 400amp service?

 

[analog]

I recently did this upgrade at my house. Electrician drove two new ground rods and the inspector checked to ensure they were there, too. I didn't discuss why he did it, though. I can't comment on the rest of your questions, since my service comes in through an outside meter base separate from the house panel. He did not have to touch the house panel.

 

[ford33]

Post a picture of your home shop. It must be impressive to need 200 amps of power.

 

[TTMotorsports]

Post a picture of your home shop. It must be impressive to need 200 amps of power.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=419000

 

[mike93lx]

Unless the electrician installed the existing rods, how does he know they meet code? I would expect the quote to include that.

How old are the existing breakers? They don't last forever.

 

[dcg9381]

Around here, there is a 320A option. It'd basically allow you to keep your 200A panel as-is and add a 2nd panel. I did not calculate your electrical load...

 

[TTMotorsports]

Home and breakers are built in 2000.

 

[ford33]

Thanks for posting the shop build. That's an awesome shop you have there.

 

[jbwilkins]

What NEC version is Phoenix on?? The most recent revision (2014) requires arch-fault almost everywhere (none were required in 2000), which the breakers are expensive.....His quote could be including replacing all your standard breakers with Arc Fault on the home. He may be required to by code since it's a 'new' service......

 

[oldgoaly]

We live on a farm, had the electrical updated and upgraded to 400 amp, 500 wire. 2-200 amp boxes, new meter box, weather head, same old meter and power lines from the pole. Have to check with your power company, they don't charge for it, but the guy they send may not have clue! I had a electrician here, when the guy got out of the truck, I looked at him. His wife got him the job at the power company, he has never pulled a wire or bent conduit. After the electrician threw his arms up came back in, he says you know that guy? "nope" just looked at his hands, he is a pencil pusher! I knew all the power companies service guys. But supervisors and engineers are a joke! Worth spending the money to do it right!

 

[FTG-05]

I tried to get a second meter but county wont let you have 2 meters on my lot so I'm stuck doing it this way. If I could get a second meter would save me close to 5 grand.

Usually 2 sometime 3 guys working at once.

Why not a common meter for both?

My house uses a 200 amp panel. Power comes off the power pole with it's transformer. Meter used to be on the outside of the garage wall.

When my shop was added in 2006, they took a separate power line from the pole direct to the shop. They then installed a meter for both the house and the shop on the power pole and deactivated the house meter.

200 amp service panel in the shop. I'm currently only using about a third of them right now.

In the pic below, you can see my power pole between my house and shop in the background. What you can't see: Two separate power lines, one to each building and the meter near the base of the pole. You can just barely see the transformer.

Good luck.

 

[gregs]

I did something similar about 10 years ago. Had a standard 200a overhead service to the power meter on the side of the house but wanted 2-200a services (1-house 1-new shop). Worked it out with the poco to go underground with a pad mounted transformer. They supplied a new 400a meter base for $20. I built a new 400a distribution panel for the side of the house. All it was is the new 400a meter base with a separate 200a disconnect mounted on each side. I removed the existing 200a meter base and replaced it with the panel I built. I did have to rewire the existing house panel so that the grounds and neutrals where separated back to the disconnect, but that was about it. Then I had the new connection point to run to the shop.

 

[Swiftlegend]

Like post #20 said. I just installed 200amp at an outbuilding(soon will start my thread here) and ran power from pole to it underground. Took meter off house , and the put pedestal out at pad by transformer pad. IT is a rare thing apparently and even PoCo guys were all confused, I even took out a permit when I didn't need one which was a mess in itself because it was an existing structure.

So yeah, go that route. I "could" later do to meters at pedestal if I wanted to meter building as a business in my area supposedly.

 

[slow]

I did something similar about 10 years ago. Had a standard 200a overhead service to the power meter on the side of the house but wanted 2-200a services (1-house 1-new shop). Worked it out with the poco to go underground with a pad mounted transformer. They supplied a new 400a meter base for $20. I built a new 400a distribution panel for the side of the house. All it was is the new 400a meter base with a separate 200a disconnect mounted on each side. I removed the existing 200a meter base and replaced it with the panel I built. I did have to rewire the existing house panel so that the grounds and neutrals where separated back to the disconnect, but that was about it. Then I had the new connection point to run to the shop.

That's exactly how I would do it if possible, but do a generator manual transfer switch at the 200 or 400 amp dosconnect depending on possible future needs.

 

[TTMotorsports]

Ok so going to just run 125 amp to the shop now as load calculators show that's all I could use.

Now what's the difference between these breakers. 4 pole vs 2 pole. And can I just connect the neutral to neutral bar in existing panel and other end to new panel?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Murray-...GowL-KJjoaIDDjPCawR-Zwqhr-oXRLdEaAvoXEALw_wcB

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Murray-125-Amp-Double-Pole-Type-MP-T-Circuit-Breaker-MP2125P/203512572

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ok so going to just run 125 amp to the shop now as load calculators show that's all I could use.

Now what's the difference between these breakers. 4 pole vs 2 pole. And can I just connect the neutral to neutral bar in existing panel and other end to new panel?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Murray-...GowL-KJjoaIDDjPCawR-Zwqhr-oXRLdEaAvoXEALw_wcB

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Murray-125-Amp-Double-Pole-Type-MP-T-Circuit-Breaker-MP2125P/203512572

The first breaker is a replacement for the factory main that would come in a meter main combo panel.

go with the second breaker.

 

[TTMotorsports]

The first breaker is a replacement for the factory main that would come in a meter main combo panel.



go with the second breaker.

Perfect that's what I figured as well. Thank you

 

[12husky]

I upgraded from 200 amp to 380 amps to run 200 out to my shop. The power company said the under ground wire to my house was fine and upgraded my meter to a 380 amp with 2 outputs. We put two 200 amp disconnects on the back of the house. One goes to the new shop and the other goes to the house panel. We didn’t have to touch anything on the house panel: just take the wire that previously went from it to the meter and move it to the disconnect instead.


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[wyliesdiesels]

I upgraded from 200 amp to 380 amps to run 200 out to my shop. The power company said the under ground wire to my house was fine and upgraded my meter to a 380 amp with 2 outputs. We put two 200 amp disconnects on the back of the house. One goes to the new shop and the other goes to the house panel. We didn’t have to touch anything on the house panel: just take the wire that previously went from it to the meter and move it to the disconnect instead.


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there isnt 380a service. Its 400/320a.

 

[12husky]

there isnt 380a service. Its 400/320a.

It’s 320. Wasn’t thinking while typing.


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[Norcal]

What NEC version is Phoenix on?? The most recent revision (2014) requires arch-fault almost everywhere (none were required in 2000), which the breakers are expensive.....His quote could be including replacing all your standard breakers with Arc Fault on the home. He may be required to by code since it's a 'new' service......

The NEC does not require AFCI's (snake oil) just because of a service change. There are things that can trigger AFCI requirements but a simple service change does not.

When you want to know what NEC edition a state is on, try this link.

https://mikeholt.com/technical-nec-menu.php

But in the case of Arizona they do not adopt a statewide code. Each municipality is free to adopt and amend the NEC.

 

[gregs]

I had to separate the grounds and neutrals back to the new disconnect. Code required them to be separated at the first disconnect / break for potential issues. It wasnt overly difficult, just took good planning and communication with the poco and county. The actual change over took me a day with the poco disconnecting service in the morning and the county inspecting it in the afternoon. While I was doing my work the poco set the new transformer and pulled cable.