Move over Snap-on have a viable competitor for ratchets
- Thread starter ssdave
- Start date
Here's a question for the Koken guys. Do Koken flex head ratchets have the pivot screw thread in all the way? That's been my one beef with my Snap-On flex heads if we are talking about worksmanship. On some ratchets the pivot screw threads all the way in, but on others it bottoms out before the screw can engage all the threads on the fork. Maybe it's a minor thing, but it's kind of annoying that a premium brand has this issue when none of my other brands (even Gearwrench) gets this right.
My only Koken ratchets are a regular 3/8 Zeal and 3/8 multi ratchet head. Nothing earth shaking, but nice enough and the back drag is quite low.
My only Koken ratchets are a regular 3/8 Zeal and 3/8 multi ratchet head. Nothing earth shaking, but nice enough and the back drag is quite low.
Last edited:
measuredtwice
Well-known member
I have my first Ko-ken ratchet on the way... and now I'm really worried that the letters won't be crisp. 
Wamsutta
Well-known member
That one single groove serves no purpose. At least with Snap-on, you'll know when your middle finger is in the right spot because their grooves will bite you.
Absolutely not.
What you perceive as sharpness/uniformness of engravings is actually a focus/lighting issue. I think Koken stamping is if anything sharper and better defined. Here are two Kokens and a Snapon.
View media item 94070
Note also that Koken doesn't need to brag like Snapon does. The stamping is properly on the bottom rather than all over the head.
Snapon, direction switch finish quality: are you serious? Their directional lever "design process" looks like they finished the head, and somebody realized that it was supposed to have a directional level. So he spat on the head and they drilled the hole for the lever over the wet spot. Koken is superior here.
Koken designs for what they think matters. That coincides with what a lot of us think Assuming sufficient strength and reliability in use, my criteria are more like:
1) Backdrag
2) Slop
3) Consistency of above between different units
You're kidding, right? Let's take a closer look at two Dual-really-72 Snapon made ratchets and three Koken ratchets (two 1/4" drive, one 1/4" bit - basically the same as the OP's except 1/4" rather than 5/16").
View media item 94068(Koken bit ratchet and Snapon were upgraded with Hazet hard plastic handles. Wiha-handled Koken was at one time, though sadly no longer, sold by Wiha.)
And a close up of the head finishing:
View media item 94069
In terms of finish quality, IMO it's Koken Zeal, Koken, Bahco Dual-really-72, Snapon Dual-really-72. Interestingly, for those who really care, Bahco stamping is much cleaner than Snapon stamping.
Never mind that Koken's head is markedly smaller in every dimension. That, like Koken's markedly superior feel in use, has actual real world ramifications in a way that brand and part number stamping does not.
Snapon is a public general tool corporation that regularly redistributes profits to shareholders and sells primarily through franchised delivery vans. Koken is a privately held company that specializes in socketry.
I agree with that. The locking mechanism is the only good thing about the above Snapon. Aside from the improved handle, at least
Last edited:
Literally in the top ten posts I've read that makes zero sense. Your priorities are fucked sir
visionguru
Well-known member
It's OK that you don't care or unable to tell the difference in workmanship, but the difference between a $100 ratchet and $10 one is: workmanship.
I have a <$10, no-brand ratchet, 40 teeth 3/8" ratchet, which I got when I was in college. It's been through lots of cheater pipes and hammering on the handle. It still works perfectly after this many years. Basically, any ratchet on the market today is better.
Then, you have to ask a question: why do people spend extra money for premium brand tools? It's for the workmanship, the little things, be it small details or insignificant feel about a tool. Yes, workmanship is a priority when you consider premium priced tools.
Thanks for the praise. Actually, I'm not sure any of my posts qualifies as top 10. Aren't most GJ posts about small things?
Last edited:
American Locomotive
Well-known member
The problem is you're confusing "workmanship" with "aesthetic design choices". Koken ratchets have extremely high workmanship. The chrome is excellent and the mechanisms are extremely precisely manufactured. This results in a highly reliable and smooth mechanism with low back-drag.
It's OK that you don't care or unable to tell the difference in workmanship, but the difference between a $100 ratchet and $10 one is: workmanship.
...
Then, you have to ask a question: why do people spend extra money for premium brand tools? It's for the workmanship, the little things, be it small details or insignificant feel about a tool. Yes, workmanship is a priority when you consider premium priced tools.
Thanks for the praise. Actually, I'm not sure any of my posts qualifies as top 10. Aren't most GJ posts about small things?
The area under the selector is purposely textured like that. Why? Who knows. Maybe they found the crinkled surface helps prevent dirt from getting stuck under the selector switch? I'm sure it's also a tradition thing - that's just what their ratchets look like, and always have.
Koken's letter stamping is also extremely sharp, consistent and detailed - I really am not sure what you were looking at. The stamping on Snap-On ratchets varies a lot, from pretty sharp to extremely soft and rounded. Snap-On sockets and wrenches have consistent stamping quality though.
Finally you also appear to have some sort of bias. You claim you never have used or held a Koken tool, and you never plan on it. So if you've never had one in your hand, and you've only ever seen crappy internet pictures, how can you even make any sort of claim about "workmanship"????
BarryWells
Well-known member
measuredtwice
Well-known member
I thought it was to minimize the appearance of scratches. For example, the smooth chrome under the SK LP90 switch gets all scratched up.
My first Ko-ken is still on its way from Japan so I don't have hands on experience with the ratchet but I thought this is a common design principle for high wear areas of other non ratchet products with otherwise smooth finishes.
Last edited:
CrazyTools
Banned
Craftsman makes the best ratchets from the late 1970s. All this talk about Koken, Snap-on, Nepros, KTC and whatever other unidentified brands you're all purporting as the best is simply absurd. Everyone knows the Craftsmans are superior, will unthread the bolts themselves without your assistance, and will retorque everything to proper specs while you sip coffee with your feet up on your creeper seat.
Now I don't own a Craftsman ratchet from the 1970s, nor have I ever seen one, or seen one work first hand ... but that doesn't change my fictitious facts. I actually only own Snap-on ratchets, but that doesn't change my truth in any way at all, and I'm clearly right, and you're all clearly wrong. Even I'm wrong. I own Snap-on, and not Craftsman. What a fool I've been. I could have had my feet up all this time.
90% of you in this thread have your priorities completely wrong. Not once did I hear anyone mention the quality of the steel, the quality of the internal machining or the strength of the gears/pawls. Just this nonsense about chrome, when viewing through the photos you posted clearly show that I would be better off with my 1970s Craftsman since the ratchets in the photos look like $5 items from a garage sale.
The prices of the Koken ratchets on eBay are comparable to Snap-on, and I would guess their resale value is practically zero.
Now I don't own a Craftsman ratchet from the 1970s, nor have I ever seen one, or seen one work first hand ... but that doesn't change my fictitious facts. I actually only own Snap-on ratchets, but that doesn't change my truth in any way at all, and I'm clearly right, and you're all clearly wrong. Even I'm wrong. I own Snap-on, and not Craftsman. What a fool I've been. I could have had my feet up all this time.
90% of you in this thread have your priorities completely wrong. Not once did I hear anyone mention the quality of the steel, the quality of the internal machining or the strength of the gears/pawls. Just this nonsense about chrome, when viewing through the photos you posted clearly show that I would be better off with my 1970s Craftsman since the ratchets in the photos look like $5 items from a garage sale.
The prices of the Koken ratchets on eBay are comparable to Snap-on, and I would guess their resale value is practically zero.
American Locomotive
Well-known member
Ah yes, how could I have forgotten! When I buy a tool, the only thing that really matters to me is the resale value.
Rabid Badger
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2018
- Messages
- 1,338
This should be good.
Nobody is worried about the quality of steel being used by one of Japan's top tool manufacturers.
You should probably read the thread again.
Again, Koken is a known quantity around here. We know their internals are strong.
This....doesn't make sense.
We're eagerly awaiting your evidence to back up this assertion.
CrazyTools
Banned
Resale value dictates general public perception of quality, and worth.
It's OK that you don't care or unable to tell the difference in workmanship, but the difference between a $100 ratchet and $10 one is: workmanship.
I have a <$10, no-brand ratchet, 40 teeth 3/8" ratchet, which I got when I was in college. It's been through lots of cheater pipes and hammering on the handle. It still works perfectly after this many years. Basically, any ratchet on the market today is better.
Then, you have to ask a question: why do people spend extra money for premium brand tools? It's for the workmanship, the little things, be it small details or insignificant feel about a tool. Yes, workmanship is a priority when you consider premium priced tools.
Thanks for the praise. Actually, I'm not sure any of my posts qualifies as top 10. Aren't most GJ posts about small things?
You're missing the point. Your priorities should be about functionality, ergonomics, design etc not the finish under the lever. I have PLENTY of very expensive tools and some I pick specifically for the fact they are just built and designed better and the price reflects that.
I wouldn't say any of your choices will make for a better tool
American Locomotive
Well-known member
What does "public perception of quality and worth" even mean?
How about actual quality? Is my tool suddenly not good because my neighbor has never heard of the brand and won't pay at least 75% of new retail price for it if I tried to sell it to him?Snap-On only sells Snap-On branded tools through their trucks and their website. They create an artificial scarcity of their product, which drives second hand prices up. Supply & Demand. If you limit the supply, you artificially drive prices up. Snap-On's balance sheets like that and their dealers like that.
I also don't see how you can honestly say Koken and Snap-On prices are comparable. A new Koken 200mm 3/8" ratchet is literally 1/3rd the cost of a new Snap-On F80...
CrazyTools
Banned
What does "public perception of quality and worth" even mean?
It means that quality products will carry higher resale values as they age, whereas poor products are worth 10-20% as soon as they're purchased.
This isn't factually accurate. Snap-on is for sale in every distribution channel available to modern consumers: Craigslist, OfferUp, eBay, Amazon, and even Snapon.com. There's no scarcity of their tools; used, new, or otherwise.
There is several like new F80 ratchets for sale on eBay right now for $55.00 shipped. I'm looking at Koken 3753N for $48 shipped.
I personally don't care whether you prefer Koken, Tekton, Craftsman, Mac, Cornwell, Matco, or Snap-on. However, I haven't seen anything in this thread to indicate other than what the OP mentioned: Snap-on doesn't sell a 5/16" bit driver. They stopped selling my XBM3032A wrench also, because apparently no one wanted a 32mm wrench in a 10 degree double box end.
This endless debate about quality is useless. Your opinions about Koken being better than another company is strictly your opinion, and based on the market in the United States for tools there are only two real supplier of tools by the numbers: Stanley, and their multitude of companies with revenues of $12.7b annually, and Snap-on with their revenue of $3.4b annually.
To give a comparison: You can argue that there are better auction websites on the internet than eBay, and better consumer websites than Amazon. However, that's what the general public uses because they are perceived to be the best, have the best customer service, and deliver the best overall experience and pricing. It doesn't mean you can't find the same product somewhere else cheaper.
This is the same reason why Stanley and Snap-on have the marketshare.
Last edited:
Actually the standard length Ko-Ken 3/8" ratchet is 178mm in length. Didnt need to look that up
American Locomotive
Well-known member
That is factually false. Its supply vs. demand. There are plenty of extremely high quality, but also very common products that are very cheap used. There are also extremely low quality products, but command very high prices. Just look at Jeep Wranglers for example. They were objectively **** when new, always at the bottom of the reliability charts, with high ownership costs. Their durability is **** with most of them rotting away in the north. Yet they have just about the highest resale value of any vehicle for sale today.
On the other hand, look at Lexus's vehicles. A Lexus LS is an extremely high quality, extremely reliable vehicle, basically guaranteed to go 300,000 miles without a major failure. They were also extremely expensive new, but people dump them on the used market after owning them a few years (because Luxury owners always want the newest, nicest thing), meaning you can pick them up extremely cheap.
Craigslist, OfferUp, and E-Bay are not "distribution channels". They're used-tool market places. Not even Amazon has Snap-On tools for sale in an official capacity. Distribution channels are things like MSC, McMaster-Carr, Grainger, Lowes, Home Depot, etc... I can't buy new Snap-On tools from any of those suppliers. Only through Snap-On's website or a Snap-On truck.
If you want a Snap-On tool, you either buy it new from Snap-On, or used.
How disingenuous can you get? Comparing prices of used/2nd hand sale E-Bay tools? An F80 is $114 new from Snap-On. A Koken 3573N is $32 new from a Koken distributor.
I really still don't understand what point you're trying to argue with this?
Last edited:
Buying Ko-ken tools on ebay = Fail #1
Assuming that Ko-Ken resale is zero = Fail #2
Comparing used S-o to new Ko-ken prices = Fail #3
-
Last edited:
BajaScout
Well-known member
I can’t stand the suspense.....what ratchet did you get?
Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app
CrazyTools
Banned
There's a 2009 Jeep Wrangler near me for $1350. There's another one listed for $650 that's a 1999. Your premise is wrong, at least as far as Jeep is concerned.
Lexus is only guaranteed for 48-month / 50,000-mile basic warranty. They may have a high reliability rating from JD Power or some other such agency, but that is no means a "guarantee to go 300,000 miles without a major failure." Do you expect to not have to do any maintenance to the car in 300,000 miles? This is hyperbole. I've had exceptional experiences driving hundreds of thousands of miles in German vehicles with very little downtime. You will still have failures in 300,000 miles. Are you basing the same opinions on tools with this kind of statement/comparison?
Everything is a distribution channel. I see new tools posted daily on Craigslist, Offerup, and eBay.
I am just being realistic on prices, and comparing dollars to dollars. If you don't mind a "like new" ratchet off a secondary distribution channel of some sort, then you can more realistically compare prices of what is currently available to anyone who wants to shop around. Snap-on retail is significantly overpriced. I doubt anyone actually pays retail, even off the truck. In fact, Snap-on sells quite a bit to the US Government. Perhaps that's why the US pays $12,000 for a hammer?
Everyone has opinions to purport. This is the internet after all. We're more here sharing our own tribal knowledge and general opinions than we are any real evidence to satisfy the masses. People will have different opinions on tools, the same way they have different opinions on cars. Some people like Kias. Some people like Mercedes, others prefer BMW. Some people like Tesla because they want electric.
Personally, I think the feel of the tool in your hand, how well it operates, and the quality of the manufacturing is the most important aspects of looking for a new tool. It helps when it's shiny.
I couldn't find anything on Youtube of people actually testing Ko-ken or Nepros ratchets, as to how much abuse they can sustain or how strong the gearing is online. If you could point some out I'd appreciate it. Ko-ken has been exporting tools since 1965. They are not a new up and comer in the tool industry.
Back to the OP --- I am still glad he found a 5/16" bit ratchet that works for him. Having the right tool is important, just as not being one when you respond to people online is as well.
Have you ever owned a Ko-ken tool? You know, to actually hold in your hand and evaluate...
You should check out the "Tools Of Japan" thread or just search GJ for "koken". Lots of threads and very little negative feedback about Ko-ken.
Opinions coming from those that have never owned or used what they are opining about? Right.
And not for nothin', but purport doesn't mean what i think you think it means...
-
Last edited:
American Locomotive
Well-known member
No. It's backed up by decades of facts and figures. Your one-off Craigslist derelict finds are not "proof" of anything.
https://www.kbb.com/new-cars/best-resale-value-awards/best-resale-top-10-cars/
https://www.autoremarketing.com/trends/jd-powers-inaugural-residual-value-all-stars-mass-market
Yet the Wrangler (and the Jeep brand as a whole) are consistently at the bottom of long-term reliability surveys.
Yes, and that is the point I was making. Decades of stats and research performed by people like J.D Power, True Delta and Consumer Reports have objectively proved that Lexus is basically the most reliable brand you can buy - yet their resale values are not great.
"Quality" and "Resale Value" are not liked.
No. The literal definition of a distribution channel is the official chain by which goods produced by a company reach the consumer. Snap-On has two official distribution channels - their website and truck sales. People reselling used/old stock/stolen tools on craigslist are not "distributors" or part of the distribution channel.
No you're not. You're literally comparing used tool or "fell off the back of the truck, new in box" prices on E-Bay to new retail prices. You're being dishonest. The only way to be fair is to look at new prices. If I wanted to buy a new Snap-On F80 right now, this second, officially with absolutely no hassle - I would be paying $114 through their website. If I wanted to do the same for Koken, I would be paying $32 through Amazon.jp
...and? There are tons of excellent, high quality tool brands out of Europe and Japan that have little to no market penetration here in the U.S. There are a lot of U.S. brands that are virtually unknown to Japan and Europe. Doesn't make them any worse.
Last edited:
turnthewrench 2.0
Well-known member
School me on that, please. I haven't bought from Frank's in a while but I still see Ko-ken on the website...
Rabid Badger
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2018
- Messages
- 1,338
Don't feed the trolls, guys.
turnthewrench 2.0
Well-known member
Got it. I sure won't.
Just asked an honest question as I'm a big fan of Ko-ken and Frank's always delivered for me.
School me on that, please. I haven't bought from Frank's in a while but I still see Ko-ken on the website...
Frank is no longer dealing Ko-ken tools. I believe what he has for sale currently is only what's left in stock. After that, no more, from what I hear...
He still deals with a lot of Japanese tools and is very much in business otherwise.
Last edited:
turnthewrench 2.0
Well-known member
Rabid Badger
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2018
- Messages
- 1,338
I wasn't referring to you.
BDT/NWMN
Well-known member
The """general public""" is not the purchasing target of Snap-on tools, which are for professionals who make their living with them...
The """general public""" has little knowledge pertaining to Snap-on tools.
turnthewrench 2.0
Well-known member
Or -as sound economists say- the "general public" dictates the resale value. Kind of the opposite
BDT/NWMN
Well-known member
Or -as sound economists say- the "general public" dictates the resale value. Kind of the opposite
The general public can see that Snap-on resale prices are high, but most of them will not understand why.. It is the small segment of Professionals, the GJ crowd, and similar folks who buy new, or bid "accordingly" on Snap-on tools on eBay and similar sites..
The general public is more familiar with Craftsman and box store tool offerings and prices.
I do believe most of the general public think we are crazy for paying Snap-on prices.. I have no problem with this; because for Me, it is no problem.
American Locomotive
Well-known member
Snap-On is even more specific than that. The Snap-On brand is basically reserved for automotive and heavy equipment mechanics. Us non-automotive industrial people have to settle for Snap-On's "industrial" brands like Williams and Bahco. Their industrial brands are available through the normal industrial distribution channels.
clinebarger
Well-known member
I've never owned or used a Ko-ken ratchet. Their product line seems very limited (5/16" bit ratchets aside)
I don't see them becoming very popular among Automotive/Heavy Equipment mechanics.
My bent-handle flex & extra long flex 3/8" drive, Extra long flex 1/4" drive, And Extra long flex 1/2 drive are my got-to ratchets. Ko-ken doesn't make equivalents to any of them.
Aside from the bent handle flex 3/8" which a lot of mechanics don't care for.....Extra long ratchets are standard fare these days.
I don't see them becoming very popular among Automotive/Heavy Equipment mechanics.
My bent-handle flex & extra long flex 3/8" drive, Extra long flex 1/4" drive, And Extra long flex 1/2 drive are my got-to ratchets. Ko-ken doesn't make equivalents to any of them.
Aside from the bent handle flex 3/8" which a lot of mechanics don't care for.....Extra long ratchets are standard fare these days.
BDT/NWMN
Well-known member
What i don't understand is why people go to eBay and pay more than they can get it for retail, direct from S-o
Thinking the same people that engage in eBay bidding races go to the county fair and pick out the fastest horse on the merry-go round. There are times We can only guess.