Move over Snap-on have a viable competitor for ratchets
- Thread starter ssdave
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The Palm Control Facom ratchets (and it's variants, i.e. Proto) are some of my favorite ratchets and were my go to for years. I own 4 Palm control ratchets. When I got the Ko-ken 24t a couple years ago I was blown away and the light back drag compared to anything else I've owned, including Facom and yes, Dual 80.
CrazyTools
Banned
This is exactly my point. You use one article of nonsense that is clearly not even a valid test. Have you been to real tool reviews where the Snap-on wrenches on the open end were shearing off grade 8 bolt heads? Every other wrench spreads.
The only wrenches in that test that were comparable were the Wright wrenches with the teeth (WrightGrip?).
Or even better... Your best buddy AvE who tested the older style of Snap-on ratchet wrench (forget the Husky comparison in the video) and the ratchet end went to 432ft/lb before it rounded his tool steel. Ratcheting box end was still fine.
A non-ratcheting box end would be even stronger.
In all of this you've still not provided ONE SHRED of any VALID argument that Koken is anything but mediocre junk.
You're a joke, and your information is a joke.
A member that has never seen or handled the ratchet in person. And no offense to the poster you refer to, but knowledgeable? I'm not saying it isn't cast but really?
CrazyTools
Banned
It's really not hard to take a look at machining and see quality vs not. I had a German car dealer try to sell me Chinese cast rotors, with no country of origin on either the product or the packaging. It's pretty obvious in the finishing of the product.
The Koken tools have the finish of cheap, medicore tools. In some ways Husky and Kobalt appear to be better tools, with higher tooth count, and are likely better quality to boot. Husky and Kobalt are the bottom of the barrel. What does that really say about Koken?
Here's the best pic I could get of my personal 3774NB handle. Hopefully the quality is OK from my phone. I have no idea if it's cast or not...
Clic on the pic to enlarge
I can tell you that it is extremely comfortable and in no way "tears up" my hands. Doesn't matter to me wether it's cast or machined. It's great.
Most people that actually own and use the tools agree that Ko-ken has the best knurling in the business.
Edit: Looking at the handle, is it even possible to cast uniform detail that small? If so that is a testament to their manufacturing lol.
Clic on the pic to enlarge
I can tell you that it is extremely comfortable and in no way "tears up" my hands. Doesn't matter to me wether it's cast or machined. It's great.
Most people that actually own and use the tools agree that Ko-ken has the best knurling in the business.
Edit: Looking at the handle, is it even possible to cast uniform detail that small? If so that is a testament to their manufacturing lol.
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measuredtwice
Well-known member
I also don't think that poster or my reply to him confirmed anything. We both just questioned how it was manufactured.
measuredtwice
Well-known member
That could be true regardless of how it is manufactured.
CrazyTools
Banned
Here's the best pic I could get of my personal 3774NB handle. Hopefully the quality is OK from my phone. I have no idea if it's cast or not...
Clic on the pic to enlarge
I can tell you that it is extremely comfortable and in no way "tears up" my hands. Doesn't matter to me wether it's cast or machined. It's great.
Most people that actually own and use the tools agree that Ko-ken has the best knurling in the business.
Definitely cast from the look of it. Could just be from the way they have the roll setup. Hard to tell if that's comfortable or not without actually gripping it. What "People" are these that claim their knurling is the best in the business? The fictional ones you've created to make your post validated?
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Dude, have you looked through the many "Koken" and "Tools from Japan" threads? Fictional?
Agreed
CrazyTools
Banned
I've read some of them, and for the most part they seem more interested in polishing their Nepros ratchet than seeing if it can handle 30 ft/lbs of torque.
I've had my hands on some of the Nepros tools (all 3/8" drive). It's pretty, but I'm not sure how it would hold up if you really got on it. Since the price is higher than Snap-on it's not really worth discussing anyway.
If your whole argument about Koken was based on price, I wouldn't be giving you as hard a time. You've chosen, quite poorly, to make a direct quality comparison and so far you haven't said a single word to validate any point you've made.
CrazyTools
Banned
Here's another shot from Ko-kens product page...
Is that cast?
I took a close look at their website, and I believe it's just the way they have the roll setup. I'm pretty sure if it was cast they would have to machine it smooth enough to make it comfortable in the hand.
I've never dealt with knurls that weren't rolled. Someone else could chime in here that does this regularly on a lathe, or otherwise.
You sir are the one who, over and over and over again, makes references to quality "of a $30 ratchet" (which is funny because it is actually a $30 ratchet lol).
I didnt bring up price because my Ko-ken ratchets hang with the best, even those that are 4x more expensive. know how I know? Because I've actually owned and used Dual 80's. Guess which isn't in my toolbox...
And yeah, I love that S-o has great resale, when I go to off load them.
I never once said that Ko-ken was "better" than S-o, but I do prefer Ko-ken. Live with it.
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measuredtwice
Well-known member
Here's another shot from Ko-kens product page...
Is that cast?
It doesn't look like knurling done the old fashioned way. But photos can be deceiving. I've done it the old fashioned way. The photos below show homemade and PB Swiss cut knurling. But I don't know the alternatives. I have not worked in manufacturing. I don't know that "casting" is right guess. That description originated from another forum member.
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I wrote "cast," because they did not look machined -- but, i don't think the Ko-ken ratchet was actually cast steel. Most likely, given the 3 dimensional diamond shaped knurls, it was pressed at high pressure in a "closed die forge." A closed die forge would give it the needed high strength from the hot metal forging process, and the closed die would force those diamond-shaped knurls into the handle. My guess is that they would then have some type of mechanical finishing process that removed any sharp edges from the diamond knurls.
The above said, I'm pretty certain these low-dollar ratchets are not machined, as that's the type of knurl stippling you might see on a $600 + 1910 style handgun - somewhere on the handgrip. A $600 handgun would justify that level of attention, but I can't imagine that in Japan, where manufacturing costs are as high as they are, that a $50 ratchet would have that level of CNC style machining... again, my best guess is that the knurls were closed die forged.
Also, I'm still not sold on the "less is better" tooth count on the Ko-kens. Sure, one can argue that the Japanese manufacturing is precise and this allows Ko-ken to use such a low count mech, but what if Ko-ken used a 90 tooth mech, would it be EVEN better... or is every other ratchet manufacturer, including the biggest of the big, wrong about high tooth counts -- at least up to 90 teeth? Once you hit 120, as with GW, it seems there are complaints about its high tooth count causing too much backdrag resistance.
Definitely, buy what you like, but I was just perusing the Ko-ken website, yet again, and I've noticed that most of their newer ratchets ditch the knurling and look more like the Snapon traditional style high polished handle. Also, they're selling 3/8 ratchets with tooth counts as low as 20! I don't know what the swing arc on that is, but if a S80 SO is around 5 degrees, then having 4 times less teeth would have to be a considerably higher engagement arc... that's not good news when you're working on modern day vehicles where access can be extremely tight.
What exactly makes it "one article of nonsense?" I mean specifically, as in what part of their outlined methodology do you object to? Could you even read it and discern the methodology? If so, please summarize.
Let's try to think beyond "they gored my sacred cow," OK?
Real_PhillBert
Well-known member
This thread has turned into a complete cesspool. Yikes.
Koken casts their ratchet's....
(face palm emoji). Japan who produces the finest grade tool steel on earth & a flagship Japanese tool brand now (according to members who truly know the finer details of tool production) casts their hand tools. A 6 y/o could work this stuff out. But anyway, a deer with no eyes would be called a no...
(face palm emoji). Japan who produces the finest grade tool steel on earth & a flagship Japanese tool brand now (according to members who truly know the finer details of tool production) casts their hand tools. A 6 y/o could work this stuff out. But anyway, a deer with no eyes would be called a no...Koken casts their ratchet's....
This thread went off the rails a long while ago, now it's just amazingly idiotic
measuredtwice
Well-known member
Koken casts their ratchet's....
Dude, he corrected his statement already. (before you posted)
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Nope, didn't measure twice, but I read it twice -- it clearly advertises 20 teeth in their flex head 3/8 ratchet. See for yourself on Ko-ken's own website:
http://www.kokenusa.com/products/model/54
Backdrag is definitely an issue when you're just starting a bolt, as it tends to unscrew it... but otherwise, it just adds to a more precise feel to the tool which better justifies charging over $100 retail for a single ratchet. The real issue is clearance and arc... when you're wrenching in close confines, it can be really tough with a low tooth count wrench. That said, it's odd if you read the history of the guy that started Ko=ken, he worked for Ford and then later for GM in Japan, prior to starting his namesake tool business. Vehicle maintenance is exactly the place where you'd tend to appreciate higher tooth counts... I mean, as opposed to taking your $150 Snapon or Matco to bolt up the porch furniture your significant other just bought at Walmart...
I like that Koken offers a different style of ratchet, that being low drag vs high tooth count simply because the market is full of high tooth count. You can get snap on/matco industry leaders, Nepros 90 if you want a thing of beauty, or Gearwrench 120 for super tight situations, and those are just some popular ones. I don't know many that advertise super low drag ratchets, I think SK did.
While it doesn’t get into the details of the knurling process, there is an interesting write up by Koken about some of their processes at: https://precitorc.com/pub/media/katalog/ko-ken-katalog-allgemeines-2018.pdf
I judge a tool on how well it fits the task, it’s durability, it’s quality, and how well it fits my use. Somehow I missed out on how deep the engraving is as my criteria. This is probably a personal failing on my part, but I’ve decided to live with it.
One effect that this thread has had is that I’m going to be buying several Koken ratchets in the near future. I already have more sockets and extensions that I can justify to myself, but hey, there is always room for more ratchets.
Max
I judge a tool on how well it fits the task, it’s durability, it’s quality, and how well it fits my use. Somehow I missed out on how deep the engraving is as my criteria. This is probably a personal failing on my part, but I’ve decided to live with it.
One effect that this thread has had is that I’m going to be buying several Koken ratchets in the near future. I already have more sockets and extensions that I can justify to myself, but hey, there is always room for more ratchets.
Max
Yeah, definitely follow up on the Ko-ken. I'm not here to bash it -- just giving an honest opinion and analysis of what I'm reading and seeing. Since I'm not sold on the Ko-ken design, I was looking at that KTC Nepros ratchet -- specifically the 1/4 stubby flex head. I noticed that Nepros has a US website where you can purchase their ratchets cheaper than from Amazon, Amazon in Japan, or eBay.
Also, regarding Vessel -- I do like the ball shape design. I have the Vessel that comes with 3 different 2 sided end attachments. It's a cool tool for a reasonable price. As for the PB Swiss, I have a number of PB drivers, including an entire 7 or 8 piece screwdriver set, a couple loose PB Torx drivers (actually have a T50 that I got dirt cheap on an Amazon clearance many years ago) -- but one of my more expensive sets was the PB Swiss Swiss Grip Phillips Head 4 piece driver set. I love the grips, but I have to tell you... I'm actually a bit disappointed in the PH2 I have in that there is more wear on the end than I'd expect (esp since I don't use this driver THAT often). I was working on something with a highly torqued phillips head screw, and grabbed the Swiss Grip, but was disappointed to see the end slipping / camming out. I have a US made SK set as well - the Cushion Grip set, and the PH2 SK grabbed the screw without slipping. I was really surprised that my high end PB's let me down... but, at the same time, I can definitely speak highly of the precision machining on the SK Cushion Grip drivers.
Where's the face palm emoji??? Perhaps reading it a 3rd time will be the charm...
You linked to the 1/4" drive page, which are 20t. 3/8" & 1/2" drive are 24t, swivel head ratchets are 45t, and their Zeal line is 36t.
I dont think I've seen a thread with more misinformed posts as this one...
Measuredtwice is another user’s name, not my doubting your counting, Mr_John.
So there is clearly a trade-off to be made here between low back-drag and short minimum required swing arc.
Similarly, 360 divided by Snap-on’s 72 teeth – not 80 although I can see why they call it that! – gives 5 degrees per click.
For a 250 mm long ratchet (tip of handle to axis of square drive) with 20 teeth, that produces a whopping 79 mm (over 3 inches) of arc travel per click, plus some extra movement to take up backlash. That’s a lot and presumably the reason Koken increased the tooth-count to 36 for their Z-EAL automotive line-up.
It’s the other way around, surely? More, smaller teeth demand higher manufacturing precision. But smaller teeth are shallower, so the engagement force needs to be higher to prevent jumping a tooth. And with smaller teeth you need the pawls to engage more teeth simultaneously to avoid stripping them, which increases back-drag. Plus, more teeth have a larger surface area at which lubricant and dirt must be displaced or compressed for the necessary full engagement, which requires higher spring force. Smaller teeth of the same width are less tolerant of running askew, so you need tighter clearances that may result in greater drag or other practical problems. Smaller teeth are less tolerant of dirt particles and corrosion, so the head has to be better sealed, and better seals are draggier, etc., etc., in a vicious circle of increasing back-drag as tooth-count goes up. I’m sure I’ve missed half of it.
So there is clearly a trade-off to be made here between low back-drag and short minimum required swing arc.
There are 360 degrees in a full circle, so dividing that by 20 teeth gives 18 degrees per click, assuming for simplicity that there’s no play anywhere (there will be some).
Similarly, 360 divided by Snap-on’s 72 teeth – not 80 although I can see why they call it that! – gives 5 degrees per click.
For a 250 mm long ratchet (tip of handle to axis of square drive) with 20 teeth, that produces a whopping 79 mm (over 3 inches) of arc travel per click, plus some extra movement to take up backlash. That’s a lot and presumably the reason Koken increased the tooth-count to 36 for their Z-EAL automotive line-up.
measuredtwice
Well-known member
I don't get this post. He asked me what I ordered. I replied with the model number and a catalog page that describes it as 24 tooth.
Don't know if it matters but the ratchet you linked is 1/4", not 3/8". Maybe you should have read it or measured it 3 times.
measuredtwice
Well-known member
Will do.
I've had the Vessel stuff for a while now and I got the PB stuff already. They're nice but I could make criticisms of both.
Ok smart guy - what are you, a Ko-ken shareholder? --- well, big deal, a 4 tooth difference from the 1/4 to the 3/8! Excuse, Me. I accidentally clicked on the 1/4, I guess, and Ko-kens website really isn't the best, but that aside, 75% of the 3/8 ratchets on the page I was looking at were 24 tooth models - and not the 45 tooth variant. Also, the guy that was asking me to measure twice was referring to not believe there were only 24 teeth when he saw a 45 tooth model. I was pointing out that, yes, the Ko-kens are as low as a 20 tooth count.
Not sure what you've proved there -- 24 teeth in a 3/8 ratchet is ridiculously low for a professional style ratchet. Even if the back drag is ultra smooth, the engagement arc swing on a 24 tooth ratchet, especially one with a long handle, has to be quite large. Also, if 24 teeth are so damn great, then why does Ko-ken even bother offering a 45 tooth model?
Finally, the website kinda ***** -- under "New Products" they list "2015/2016" as their year for "new products." Again, I'm not here to bash Ko-ken, they appear to be decent quality, but you're going wayyyy overboard in your acclaim for a not so well known Japanese tool brand that there's little evidence that many in the mechanics trade actually use. Oh, and hey, you want to point out Ko-kens vast torque wrench offerings? What, they don't have them - do they? Well I looked, and not only don't they have any digital torque wrenches, which are fairly common among high end tool brands, but Ko-ken hardly sell ANY torque wrenches at all... they have a few weird looking ratchets for "spark plugs" at low torque setting, but that's it...
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measuredtwice
Well-known member
Checked the tracking and it has been in the USA since Saturday (I ordered on Thurs). Amazon estimates delivery by Thurs.
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Okay, didn't realize your screen name was "measured twice." Also, he doubted the 24 tooth count, and I KNOW they were 24 tooth counts, but the one I accidentally clicked on was a 20 tooth count. I was simply confirming that the tooth count was in the 20s. Again, the question was 45 vs 24, so 20 is besides the point - and I thought he was asking ME to "measure twice."
Ko-ken specializes in socketry. They probably have the most comprehensive socket selection of any tool manufacturer in the world. They don't make wrenches or pliers, very few screwdrivers...
I'm not going overboard with my "acclaim", most of my posts have been to correct or refute ignorant statements made about Ko-ken. That's all.
Yeah, their website is bad, I agree, but so are many other tool companies'. Surf on over to the Tekton website if you want to see a great tool site.
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CrazyTools
Banned
In comparing my last remaining Snap-on F730 ratchet (36 teeth) to the current 80 teeth version (F80) --- there is a clear backdrag winner. The 80 teeth version. Older style ratchets from the 80s, 90s (the designs Koken still imitates) use a very strong spring to prevent the ratchet pawl from clicking to the next "tooth." Otherwise the ratchet would skip under force.
Dual 80, and similar style dual pawls, do have quite a bit of force to engage the 4-8 teeth pawl, but once you switch to "ratcheting" mode it requires zero effort to disengage the pawl.
Remember : All the Gearwrench folks claim that their 120 teeth ratchets have no backdrag at all!
We’re getting there, Mr_John. As you’ve since noticed, I didn’t ask you to measure twice. But neither did I doubt the 24-tooth count.
However, if the 3/8"-drive ratchets are 24-tooth instead of 20-tooth, that changes my swing-arc calculation a little in their favour. Still, it’s 2 inches per click at the end of the handle for the regular length 3753N, plus play. More, about 3 inches, for the longer flex-head models. Sounds like a lot to me.
Not only is that the minimum space you need to get any ratcheting action at all, but even when you have more space, you’ll need to do more swings per fastener revolution.
For example, if you need 2 inches and you’ve got 3.9 inches, you’re still only going to get 1 click per swing, which is 15 degrees (360/24) of fastener rotation. With 3× the tooth-count (72 teeth, like Snap-on), you’d get not 3 clicks but 5 clicks in this case, which is 25 degrees of fastener movement. So the Snap-on gets the bolt out with 40% fewer swings in this contrived but explanatory case.
With more teeth, there is less wasted work in tight confines.
I guess I’ll have to get my hands on one of these peculiar Kokens to see how the swing versus back-drag trade-off works out in practice.
However, if the 3/8"-drive ratchets are 24-tooth instead of 20-tooth, that changes my swing-arc calculation a little in their favour. Still, it’s 2 inches per click at the end of the handle for the regular length 3753N, plus play. More, about 3 inches, for the longer flex-head models. Sounds like a lot to me.
Not only is that the minimum space you need to get any ratcheting action at all, but even when you have more space, you’ll need to do more swings per fastener revolution.
For example, if you need 2 inches and you’ve got 3.9 inches, you’re still only going to get 1 click per swing, which is 15 degrees (360/24) of fastener rotation. With 3× the tooth-count (72 teeth, like Snap-on), you’d get not 3 clicks but 5 clicks in this case, which is 25 degrees of fastener movement. So the Snap-on gets the bolt out with 40% fewer swings in this contrived but explanatory case.
With more teeth, there is less wasted work in tight confines.
I guess I’ll have to get my hands on one of these peculiar Kokens to see how the swing versus back-drag trade-off works out in practice.
CrazyTools
Banned
Again, this is based on what? Your opinion? There's no facts to back that up at all. More hyperbole.
Attachments
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Clearly other factors than tooth-count affect back-drag. My old Facom round-head ratchets, pre-Palm Control (e.g. J.151A) have lower back-drag than the sealed modern versions sold today.
I notice some of the Kokens are not sealed. One reason may be that larger teeth are more tolerant of dirt and corrosion, so they don’t need seals and clean-room conditions to work fine. There are advantages as well as disadvantages to fewer teeth.
Thank you, Sir! You made my day. The gentlemen are so red-hot that they took your sarcasm seriously. What a waterfall, a kaleidoscope of emotions here!!! What a lesson for us, immigrants in American enthusiastic and optimistic positivism brewed with British reserve and tradition of understatement. I bow to all great contributors...