Move over Snap-on have a viable competitor for ratchets

[Handyandy23]

No, that's not the same. And as an aside, I'm wearing a watch right now with a mechanical movement. Mechanical movements are top tier, not the other way around, but I understand the general point that you're TRYING to make.

You've missed my point, or just ignored it. My point is that top end tool makers like Snapon, Matco, Wiha, PB Swiss, and yes, I'd say KTC as well -- and well, hard to exclude Gear Wrench at this point, but they have rather sophisticated line up that all include higher end torque tools, most have a digital variant showing their ability to move their tool line into the modern age. The fact that Koken SPECIALIZES mainly in sockets and ratchets seems to only make the fact they don't have digital torque wrenches in their line up even more glaring.

Don't you see the point -- Koken wants to make money, right? If Kokens are great ratchets, then to make more money, you expand into precision instruments, like digital torque wrenches.

So, no, the Rolex comparison is hardly the same... it takes A LOT of skill (and money - and sales numbers) to justify the expense of designing your very own mechanical movement. Actually, higher end watch makers often use ETA SA Swiss movements, that are just rebranded. The top watch makers, like Omega, Tag, Breitling and Rolex -- each design and manufacturer their own movements. That's one reason why they're "top tier' watch companies.

I'm not going to go into a ton of research, but most (if not all) of those companies just sell rebranded torque wrenches. You can buy identical torque wrenches to the SO ones from PI I believe it is.

If the mark of a quality company is selling re-badged torque tools then I guess everyone like Harbor Freight qualifies too.

 

[JBH]

How do you define fraud? How do you define honest?

I define them the way everyone who wishes to effectively communicate ideas in the English language should:

Fraud: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fraud

Honest: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/honest

We have a growing problem of people conducting their affairs not based on what is right, what is fair, or what is just, but rather on what they can get away with that's "legal," narrowly defined. Or sometimes not even considering strict legality as long as there's a low probability of meaningful punishment.

Tool warranty scamming is small beer, but neatly illustrates a wide and growing societal problem. This willful unmooring of personal conduct from morals and ethics is one of the most troubling chronic diseases ripping through maga-land. The fish rots from the head, etc.

If a franchise owner decides to give warranty service without looking into the history of the tools and customers accept this service, is there really any fraud or dishonesty going on?

That depends on if one thinks claiming something one knows or should know one is not entitled to is dishonest or, colloquially speaking, fraudulent.

Note what is does not show up as a factor in the preceding sentence: anything involving any other person or entity. Personal honor and dignity is wholly within oneself.

Your framing is also very interesting: they're offering, and you're just passively accepting. Really?

Did you ever happen to notice that all the snap on dealers out there sell these used tools ON THEIR TRUCK with a warranty?

I've never been on a white delivery van. I generally buy better stuff than is available from such vendors. Koken, for example.

That said, is this alleged warranty express or implied? Is it from the tool maker or from the delivery van franchisee?

And there is certainly dishonesty going on with a little colloquial fraud to boot?

Yes.

I am not an authority in the arena of warranty law,

That is clear.

warranty...is a promise to original customers in contract law...Warranties are not legal guarantees, they are promises.

Please elaborate.

 

[apdxyk]

Reminds me US border situation: there are millions of fools that play by the rules, and there are few 'smart' ones that play by their own rules. Oh wait, they are not few anymore. Makes me reconsider my relationship with Snap-On. So, I could buy a used dysfunctional tool on a black market, present a claim, SO mails me a new one, tells me to keep the old one, and I could resell both pieces a few times over 'if I am smart'. Better than insurance fraud. Written rules are for fools - New Era. Age of Aquarius is upon us.
And them thieves are so sincere in their moral relativism.

 

[Samuel D]

The problem with Snap-on’s lavish warranty implementation is that it rewards people for using their tools incorrectly, storing them badly, and making dishonest claims about manufacturing defects. Meanwhile, the cost of these claims is paid for by the good guys who treat their tools and the Snap-on dealer with respect.

How is that a fair or desirable outcome? It incentivises precisely the wrong behaviour.

I would never claim for a tool that has aged or worn out, and furthermore my tools last forever because I look after them (and, yes, because I don’t use them as much as a pro; but my grandfather was a pro user and most of his tools lasted forever too, so I know that’s not the whole reason).

So for me, Snap-on’s generosity increases the price with no significant upside, probably by a large and growing amount. And that money isn’t even going to Snap-on employees and shareholders but to dicks like the guy in another thread who boasted about flinging his new Snap-on tool across the concrete floor.

No thanks.

 

[WittHay]

"Any Koken tool which fails because of defective workmanship will be repaired or replaced through your Koken dealer" taken from Koken catalog.

So just take your Koken ratchet back to the nearest Amazon store and I am sure Mr. Bezos will personally take care of it for you. Or talk to the nice lady in the tool store in Japan that onlys speaks Japanese. Or get hold of the UPS driver or local meth head that Amazon now has delivering and I am sure they have rebuild kits for the Koken ratchet at their house

And people wonder how Snap-on stays in business and the truck and dealer just keep getting bigger and busier. People have been buying and selling used Snap-on for decades. Its up to the local dealer to sort out warranty

Lots of online nonsense and "free shipping" that drives up the price of tools. Snap-on doesnt have this in Canada but we have to subsidizes non tool truck purchases in the US

 

[WittHay]

There is nothing wrong with the quality of Koken but you have to buy it knowing there is no warranty. Same as buying a made in Canada Gray ratchet in the US through a Canadian store or a made in Germany Hazet ratchet in Canada through a German store

 

[Samuel D]

"Any Koken tool which fails because of defective workmanship will be repaired or replaced through your Koken dealer" taken from Koken catalog.

And you doubt this?

I don’t think anyone is worried about being able to return a new tool with defective workmanship. You can do that easily with Amazon or any other store, regardless of the tool manufacturer’s warranty terms. All developed countries have strong statutory rights for that kind of thing. In practice, shops like Amazon also allow you to return new items for no good reason at all (e.g. because you changed your mind. I don’t like that either, again because it unfairly increases costs for those who do their research before buying and don’t lump the costs of their cancelled impulse buys on others).

But the vast majority of Snap-on warranty claims are not for defective workmanship. They’re for replacing an old, worn-out, or wrecked tool with a shiny new one for free. That’s the utility people have in mind when they talk about Snap-on’s great warranty. And it does have value, just more so for dishonest people who treat their tools with disdain than for honest people who look after them. Broken system.

 

[Samuel D]

Lots of online nonsense and "free shipping" that drives up the price of tools. Snap-on doesnt have this in Canada but we have to subsidizes non tool truck purchases in the US

Not sure I understand this point. Snap-on’s transaction costs are much higher than any big-box store or online store. It costs a fortune to have tiny, mobile stores all over the place (often in rural areas) and make every transaction face-to-face.

There are benefits to that model too, but costs are not one of them.

 

[M6erfan]

"Any Koken tool which fails because of defective workmanship will be repaired or replaced through your Koken dealer" taken from Koken catalog.

So just take your Koken ratchet back to the nearest Amazon store and I am sure Mr. Bezos will personally take care of it for you. Or talk to the nice lady in the tool store in Japan that onlys speaks Japanese. Or get hold of the UPS driver or local meth head that Amazon now has delivering and I am sure they have rebuild kits for the Koken ratchet at their house

There is nothing wrong with the quality of Koken but you have to buy it knowing there is no warranty. Same as buying a made in Canada Gray ratchet in the US through a Canadian store or a made in Germany Hazet ratchet in Canada through a German store

Or just contact Ko-ken USA, in Massachusetts...

 

[Mr_B]

I couldn't give a flip on life warranty, it completely non beneficial return on basic hand tools .
Koken can be had at very sensible prices so if worn out in 30 years simply buy new .

I had Koken sockets replaced due to chrome peel no questions asked and nothing has broken (3/8 chrome get used on my kuani nano impact air ratchet) and I got ratchets 25yrs old of daily autoshop/light farm machinary use still working fine .
Seems it 3X cheaper than snapon you can self warranty as fast as needs must and with exact replacement you desire, self warranty even covers loss and theft

 

[Mr_John]

They might have been new, but you weren't the original purchaser.

As far as Craftsman/Sears, do you really want to use them as a success story for your comparison?

When a ratchet costs $100+ vs $30 the finances for the manufacturers are quite different.

The S-0 warranty is clear, if they choose not to enforce it, that's up to them.

Sears did not go into bankruptcy due to Craftsman warranty costs, that were likely covered by Danaher, anyway. Also, yes, you're making my point -- if Craftsman can warranty a ratchet that cost $30 (or even $10 or $20 for some) - for life, and that was a profitable model for how many years, then what's the issue with Snapon offering a similar warranty on a ratchet that cost FOUR TIMES as much.

The Snapon warranty is built into the cost - that's what I'm saying. Part of the Snapon warranty is the quality of the product -- most do not break. I'd bet their overall warranty claims are probably quite low. And, again, they are a very sophisticated publicly traded American company --- they know what they're doing. Snapon has decided (most likely) that by NOT honoring SO warranties, as limited as they may be, when a claimant does not have a proof of purchase --- then that may DAMAGE their brand. Tell me how many horror stories have you heard about car manufacturers given people the run around on warranty claims?

 

[Mr_John]

Mechanical movements are actually garbage in terms of accuracy. Rolex's best mechanical movement can hold +6/-4 seconds/day. A good quartz digital wrist-watch will hold +/- 5 seconds per month.

Which is my point. Not a single person in the world would say Rolex is a "mid-tier" manufacturer because they don't offer vastly superior digital quartz based movements.

Yeah, I think you're really over-estimating how lucrative the "digital torque wrench" business is.

Well, you seem to be mixing things up with your comparisons. First of all, yes, accuracy on good Quarts watches tends to be better than a mechanical movement, but the accuracy in a Rolex movement or an Omega or Breitling movement, is quite good. You're paying a lot for engineering and reputation when it comes to high end watches. Clearly, the unit cost on a Rolex is not $5K + in labor and material. That said, people buy mechanicals not for the highest accuracy vs a digital quarts, but because they are statement pieces.

So, back to the digital torque wrench -- the fact that Snapon, Matco, Wiha and others have high end digital offerings provides a technological halo over the brands... just like Rolex and Tag Heuer having some of the most sophisticated custom mechanical movements in their watches creates greater value to the overall brand and exhibits the brands' prowess in advanced technology.

Why do you think car companies build low volume flagship models, like the Ford's GT40 or the previous Dodge Viper? They are flagships that provide a marketing halo over the entire brand. Cars, watches, and tools are definitely marketed differently, but, that's not to say each doesn't have it's own flagship model. Also, the actual accuracy on high end torque wrenches doesn't tend to be above +/- 2% -- so, there are other advantages to digitals that go beyond just accuracy -- such as handle vibrations when you hit torque settings, lighting systems (Matco progressive lighting system is very cool), and some also have head angle calculators as well. The simple point is that Koken's FOCUS is on ratchets and sockets --- so, again, the fact that they DON'T have a digital torque wrench when ratchets ARE one of their main focuses, does seem to question Koken's advanced manufacturing prowess.

Koken has spent a lot of time and effort optimizing and perfecting their manufacturing techniques to produce an extremely smooth and durable ratchet with very minimal backdrag. Their socket quality is extremely high and extremely consistent.

They're not "mid tier" just because they don't offer a digital torque wrench. Just the same as Rolex isn't "mid-tier" even though a $10 Casio quartz watch is literally an order of magnitude more precise.

Koken really is a "mid-tier" ratchet. KTC / Nepros is top tier Japanese manufacturing for sure, but not Koken. Also, a $10 Casio quartz is not "orders of magnitude" more precise than an officially calibrated Rolex - you're crazy. Quartz watches aren't perfect, either -- but that's besides the point. A sophisticated mechanical movement in a Rolex is a Tour de Force in engineering, and I just looked it up - Rolex is certifying all of their mechanical watches in house to be accurate +/- 2 seconds per day, but I do get your point -- but understand my point, as well. High end products in a brands lineup, and trickle down technology do provide a halo over the rest of a manufacturer's product lineup. Koken not having a digital torque wrench in a line up that is mostly just ratchets and sockets does seem very unusual.

 

[Mr_John]

Or just contact Ko-ken USA, in Massachusetts...

Okay, I have to quibble with you a bit on your certitude regarding Koken's warranty. You as well as anyone else claiming that the warranty is lifetime. I keep reading about Koken lifetime warranties, but I'm not quite sure where that info is being derived.

Where are you (or anyone else stating Koken has a good warranty) getting this information, from? I've been up and down Koken's website, and can't seem to find ANY info about their warranty. In fact, I found that the distribution for Koken in the US is via a third party company - Blackstone Global, Inc in Chelmsfor, MA. So, unless Blackstone is going to warranty these tools, and I see NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that they will warranty a broken tool, let alone the timeframe for that warranty -- then, as somebody else had mentioned, these Koken's would seem to be a bit "gray market." Now, they're not TRUE gray market sales, as there IS a US distributor, but those of you buying Kokens via eBay and Amazon are not purchasing them through the US distributor, so there's no reason to believe that the US distributor in MA would honor any warranty service on any of these ratchets purchased via Amazon, Japan or eBay in the USA.

I know the Kokens are less expensive than tool truck ratchets -- yes, but it seems people are claiming Koken is not only cheaper, but has a lifetime warranty, and I'm simply not finding evidence to back that up.

If you have evidence of Koken's warranty in the USA - then please provide it.

 

[M6erfan]

...If you have evidence of Koken's warranty in the USA - then please provide it.

Really?

 

[Mr_John]

Really?

Yeah - really. That's a pic of a warranty. Show me the actual warranty on the website. Also, that warranty you cite states the purchaser must go through their "dealer." All of the guys on GJ are buying these Koken on Amazon and eBay. Nobody to my knowledge has bought a Koken through an authorized Koken dealer.

The likelihood is that home mechanics that use their ratchets occasionally will not need to warranty their Kokens, but anyone who is a professional mechanic and uses their tools for a living -- they are more likely to damage their tools, and it's not clear to me that Blackstone Global, Inc in MA would offer ANY warranty service for ratchets not purchased directly through them. That would leave you with Koken in Japan, and having to ship your ratchet back internationally would be expensive -- and even THEN, I saw a post you made in 2016 where you contacted Koken and were told they'd consider the warranty on a case-by-case basis.

I don't know about you, but that warranty service is more than a bit sketchy. There's no evidence that I can find that there's any guarantee that Koken or any Koken distributor (such as the one in MA) would warranty a broken Koken ratchet. Also, if you had to send it to Japan to get it back to Koken, HQ, then YOU would have to pay for international shipping and wait possibly weeks to find out if you even qualify for a replacement tool.

 

[impactims]

I define them the way everyone who wishes to effectively communicate ideas in the English language should:

Fraud: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fraud

Honest: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/honest

We have a growing problem of people conducting their affairs not based on what is right, what is fair, or what is just, but rather on what they can get away with that's "legal," narrowly defined. Or sometimes not even considering strict legality as long as there's a low probability of meaningful punishment.

Tool warranty scamming is small beer, but neatly illustrates a wide and growing societal problem. This willful unmooring of personal conduct from morals and ethics is one of the most troubling chronic diseases ripping through maga-land. The fish rots from the head, etc.

That depends on if one thinks claiming something one knows or should know one is not entitled to is dishonest or, colloquially speaking, fraudulent.

Note what is does not show up as a factor in the preceding sentence: anything involving any other person or entity. Personal honor and dignity is wholly within oneself.

Your framing is also very interesting: they're offering, and you're just passively accepting. Really?

I've never been on a white delivery van. I generally buy better stuff than is available from such vendors. Koken, for example.

That said, is this alleged warranty express or implied? Is it from the tool maker or from the delivery van franchisee?

Yes.

That is clear.

Please elaborate.

Snap on dealer walks into my shop, sees new tool boxes there that didn't used to be there, offers to replace the slides and locks on my new-to-me tool boxes, I accept, and there is fraud and dishonesty going on as per your definition?

So this was an...."intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right"??

My actions were not...."free from fraud or deception"??

This makes me part of a "wide and growing societal problem"??

Well, you are entitled to freedom of speech and all and can think and say what you please about me taking new slides that I didn't even ask for from a snap-on dealer that I have been seeing weekly for years and that I have helped a great deal.

Have fun and good luck.

 

[impactims]

I don't buy SO and don't really care what you do, but I do find it weird that you can't see the moral dilemma in buying used up tools for cheap and expecting free parts or replacements for life. Like buying 60 year old tool boxes used for peanuts and asking for brand new slides for all of them. Seems kind of mind boggling to me.



Clearly you didn't detect all of the sarcasm in his post, and the fact that you seem to think it's fine to buy a used up ratchet, get it replaced for free, and then give the broken one to someone else to get free replacement too, really speaks volumes.

Where does that cycle end? How many brand new ratchets should SO give away for free to replace that one old one? I guess Iin your opinion an infinite amount as long as SO keeps handing them out.

I never asked for the slides.

I never gave anyone the broken tool that I was told to do as I please with.

There was no cycle to put an end to.

 

[M6erfan]

Yeah - really. That's a pic of a warranty. Show me the actual warranty on the website. Also, that warranty you cite states the purchaser must go through their "dealer." All of the guys on GJ are buying these Koken on Amazon and eBay. Nobody to my knowledge has bought a Koken through an authorized Koken dealer.

The likelihood is that home mechanics that use their ratchets occasionally will not need to warranty their Kokens, but anyone who is a professional mechanic and uses their tools for a living -- they are more likely to damage their tools, and it's not clear to me that Blackstone Global, Inc in MA would offer ANY warranty service for ratchets not purchased directly through them. That would leave you with Koken in Japan, and having to ship your ratchet back internationally -- and even THEN, I saw a post you made in 2016 where you contacted Koken and were told they'd consider the warranty on a case-by-case basis.

I don't know about you, but that warranty service is more than a bit sketchy. There's no evidence that I can find that there's any guarantee that Koken or any Koken distributor (such as the one in MA) would warranty a broken Koken ratchet. Also, if you had to send it to Japan to get it back to Koken, HQ, then YOU would have to pay for international shipping and wait possibly weeks to find out if you even qualify for a replacement tool.

Wow. Ok, you win.

 

[Max]

I guess that I don’t get the whole tool warranty discussion. If you like Snap on, then you buy a tool that has a good warranty on paper which says that SO will replace defective tools for the original owner. In practice, it seems like most folks get a great warranty that also covers normal wear and tear, owner abuse, tools not purchased by the current owner, and acts of God.

Does anyone think that their warranty is somehow free? That SO doesn’t have to roll their warranty costs back into their company costs? It’s not magic here - SO is a public and profitable company so the above _has_ to happen.

Take look at Snap On Industrial tools (Williams). Supposedly the chrome Williams and the chrome SO sockets are made in the same factory. The Williams sockets are much cheaper than SO. Does that factory somehow use junky steel or bad chrome on the Williams? It’s pretty clear that if they are not identical sockets, then are very nearly so.

I am not saying that the difference between Williams and SO is just the warranty. Within the SO company family SO and Williams may (or may not) have different profit targets. And SO obviously has a different distribution model. So it’s not apples to apples.

If you like SO tools themselves, or the warranty, or both - then more power to you - you’ve made a fine choice and I won’t argue with you. But on the other hand, if people prefer to self warranty with quality tools (SK, Proto, Williams, and Koken according to lots of folks on GJ) then those people deserve respect as well.

Max

 

[Mr_John]

Wow. Ok, you win.

Ha! That's what matters. Seriously, though -- I'm not knocking anyone for buying Koken. Everything I've seemed to find has been positive about the tools they sell. I think part of the problem is that their sales are extremely limited in the US, so, professionals using Koken are probably quite limited as well. The more that people that brake ratchets start using Kokens (like pro mechanics), the more you're likely to find out about friction with Kokens warranty.

I think as long as the people spending about $50 - $70 on a Koken ratchet are aware there isn't much of a guarantee or warranty there - at least in the US - at least as of today, then there's less chance that somebody felt they were mislead.

Oh, and one last point -- warranty isn't everything to me. I do consider warranty when I'm assessing a decision to make purchase (esp a larger dollar purchase). It's definitely a factor, but it's usually not the biggest factor in my purchase decision.

 

[Mr_John]

I guess that I don’t get the whole tool warranty discussion. If you like Snap on, then you buy a tool that has a good warranty on paper which says that SO will replace defective tools for the original owner. In practice, it seems like most folks get a great warranty that also covers normal wear and tear, owner abuse, tools not purchased by the current owner, and acts of God.

Does anyone think that their warranty is somehow free? That SO doesn’t have to roll their warranty costs back into their company costs? It’s not magic here - SO is a public and profitable company so the above _has_ to happen.

Take look at Snap On Industrial tools (Williams). Supposedly the chrome Williams and the chrome SO sockets are made in the same factory. The Williams sockets are much cheaper than SO. Does that factory somehow use junky steel or bad chrome on the Williams? It’s pretty clear that if they are not identical sockets, then are very nearly so.

I am not saying that the difference between Williams and SO is just the warranty. Within the SO company family SO and Williams may (or may not) have different profit targets. And SO obviously has a different distribution model. So it’s not apples to apples.

If you like SO tools themselves, or the warranty, or both - then more power to you - you’ve made a fine choice and I won’t argue with you. But on the other hand, if people prefer to self warranty with quality tools (SK, Proto, Williams, and Koken according to lots of folks on GJ) then those people deserve respect as well.

Max

Aren't Williams ratchets made in Taiwan? So, if it's made in Taiwan, first of all, that's not made in the USA like Snapon, and second, that would suggest that the chroming would be done at a different facility (and not the exact same place).

So yes, those of us that buy Snapon realize the cost of the warranty is baked into the cake, but we also usually value the fact that it's "made in the USA" as well. I prefer my Rolex's to be made in Switzerland, my Porsche's to be made in Stuttgart, Germany, and my Snapon to be made in the USA. I guess you could also add - your Koken's to be made in Japan. There's definitely value in the "mystique" of where something is made. Can they not make a Koken wrench in China? Sure they can, but seriously, would as many people on GJ be clamoring for a Chinese made Koken? Doubt it...

 

[M6erfan]

Aren't Williams ratchets made in Taiwan?

Not all of them. Williams makes USA sockets and ratchets.

Your intellect is dizzying sir

 

[impactims]

Williams entire catalog is a mixture of USA, Taiwan and Argentina. Different product aimed at a different end user than s-o.

 

[Mr_John]

Not all of them. Williams makes USA sockets and ratchets.

Your intellect is dizzying sir

Ouch, no need to get saucy. I guess Blue Point stuff is from Taiwan, but yeah, found a Made in USA 3/8 Williams ratchet for just $27, and while it only has an 36 tooth mech, the 72 tooth mech version on the Snapon FC72 sells for $94.25.

So, that is a fair point considering both Ratchets are made in America. There are definitely differences beyond the finer mech on the Snapon, but I agree the price is about 3.5x more.

 

[impactims]

Williams is a fair bit less refined, built to different specs and I think that accounts for most of the price difference between USA Williams and s-o with regards to the hard-line product. That and operational costs to do business day to day are more for s-o.

 

[L.Cheapo]

Lots of online nonsense and "free shipping" that drives up the price of tools. Snap-on doesnt have this in Canada but we have to subsidizes non tool truck purchases in the US

I'd rather pay for shipping and get lower tool prices. Like you Canadians do vs. we Americans. Or just buy it off the truck for a lower price and forget about shipping cost entirely.

Examples:
List prices for a BJP-1

USA: $735
Canada $869.95 = $665.75USD
$69.25USD cheaper in Canada

Metric FD+ combination wrench set SOEXM01FMBR

USA: $539.50
Canada: $662.05 = $506.70USD
$32.80USD cheaper in Canada

USA made tools cheaper in Canada than the USA.

 

[American Locomotive]

So, back to the digital torque wrench -- the fact that Snapon, Matco, Wiha and others have high end digital offerings provides a technological halo over the brands...

Yeah, you're really reaching here. You talk Snap-On to the average shade-tree (or even pro mechanic) and their "Halo digital torque wrench" is not likely to come up, ever.

When you buy a Koken ratchet, you're paying for the high quality steel, the durable chrome plating, and the very precisely manufactured and tuned mechanism inside the ratchet.

So, again, the fact that they DON'T have a digital torque wrench when ratchets ARE one of their main focuses, does seem to question Koken's advanced manufacturing prowess.

This is such a ridiculously weak argument. They don't have torque wrenches, therefore they don't have advanced manufacturing capability? What? The quality and smoothness of their ratchets, sockets and other tools is more than enough to prove otherwise.

Most of the torque wrenches we have at work are made by companies that don't make sockets, wrenches, or ratchets. Just torque tools and that's it. Should I criticize them for their lack of advanced foundry and forging equipment?

Koken really is a "mid-tier" ratchet.

You've never seen, held, or even used a Koken ratchet in person. I have. Along with the Snap-On F80, SK LP90 and many others. The Koken is an extremely high quality piece. I don't even own Koken tools, and I acknowledge their quality.

Also, a $10 Casio quartz is not "orders of magnitude" more precise than an officially calibrated Rolex - you're crazy.

Nope, sorry you are wrong, very very wrong. The best mechanical wrist watch movements hold +/- a few seconds per day. The cheapest Timex watch will hold ~10 seconds per month. A mid-range quartz watch will hold +/- 10 seconds per year.

Koken not having a digital torque wrench in a line up that is mostly just ratchets and sockets does seem very unusual.

Koken is not in the business of torque tools. It's really that simple. They obviously don't see it as something they need to do.

 

[M6erfan]

Yeah, this thread seems to be a magnet for trolls who, despite never using a Koken tool, are experts and freely give their opinion on them.

Apparently trolls hibernate for 7 years then come out of their caves to feed.

 

[Handyandy23]

Yeah, this thread seems to be a magnet for trolls who, despite never using a Koken tool, are experts and freely give their opinion on them.

Apparently trolls hibernate for 7 years then come out of their caves to feed.

People that have never used a Koken, comparing / complaining about the quality of a ratchet you can literally buy for $30 on amazon.jp! At the price point it's closer to the cost of a HF ratchet than a SO.

It's also ridiculous that there is concern over warranty at that price point. SO you pay triple the cost of the actual tool to cover all the frivolous warranty claims. Koken you get at a good enough price you self warranty if the need comes up. Or buy a readily available rebuild kit yourself.

The fact someone that's never used one feels the need to bash it probably just means they're trying to justify their high dollar truck tools to themselves.

 

[apdxyk]

Snap-On is a status symbol for people with poor vision and arithmetic skills. Louis Voitton for boys.

 

[Mr_John]

Yeah, you're really reaching here. You talk Snap-On to the average shade-tree (or even pro mechanic) and their "Halo digital torque wrench" is not likely to come up, ever.

Yeah, but most shade tree mechanics aren't Snapon's target audience, anyway. Just like most people wouldn't understand why somebody would spend $5K on a mechanical watch - but most people aren't the target audience of Rolex.

When you buy a Koken ratchet, you're paying for the high quality steel, the durable chrome plating, and the very precisely manufactured and tuned mechanism inside the ratchet.

Tbh - I think most people are willing to pay over $50 for Koken because it's made in Japan. Make that same ratchet in China, and it probably sells for under $20.

This is such a ridiculously weak argument. They don't have torque wrenches, therefore they don't have advanced manufacturing capability? What? The quality and smoothness of their ratchets, sockets and other tools is more than enough to prove otherwise.

Nice strawman argument. I'm using the digital torque wrench as ONE example of Koken's lack of advanced manufacturing. Sure, they appear to be very good at designing and meticulously crafting sockets - there's no doubt, but there's little evidence that Koken's 140 employees has the engineering and sophisticated electronic manufacturing prowess of the 12K + employees of a publicly traded company like Snap-on. AGAIN - Koken *specializes* in ratchets, yet has very few torque wrenches. KTC on the other hand, make a large number of both analog and digital torque wrenches as well as a massive line of other tools. One of the electronic torque adapters that KTC makes uses Bluetooth to communicate with a smart device, such as a phone or table. Again, Koken and their 20 - 30 tooth count ratchets, selling for around $30 - $60 are basically a "mid tier" brand. KTC's Nepros is definitely "top tier" -- and their priced top tier as well.

You've never seen, held, or even used a Koken ratchet in person. I have. Along with the Snap-On F80, SK LP90 and many others. The Koken is an extremely high quality piece. I don't even own Koken tools, and I acknowledge their quality.

Mid tier ratchets can be extremely high quality - I never argued Koken wasn't a high quality piece.

Nope, sorry you are wrong, very very wrong. The best mechanical wrist watch movements hold +/- a few seconds per day. The cheapest Timex watch will hold ~10 seconds per month. A mid-range quartz watch will hold +/- 10 seconds per year.

Okay, so a few seconds difference a month is now "orders of magnitude" according to you? I agree that most $50 + quartz watches will be more accurate than a high quality mechanical movement, but I do NOT agree that the difference in accuracy is "orders of magnitude." You have a tendency to exaggerate I've noticed.

Koken is not in the business of torque tools. It's really that simple. They obviously don't see it as something they need to do.

Yes, the entire company has only 140 employees - so, yeah, it's THAT simple.

 

[M6erfan]

Yes, the entire company has only 140 employees - so, yeah, it's THAT simple.

Bugatti has less than 300 employees, Ferrari less than 4,000. Ford has about 200,000 employees.

According to you, Bugatti and Ferrari would be incapable of producing hi-tech automobiles as Ford, because of the number of employees. Ridiculous.

Rolex has about 2,500 employees, Casio 12,000. Obviously, according to your logic, Casio is the far superior watch maker.

Please, keep going, it's kinda fun waiting to see how much more ignorance your posts reveal...

 

[Mr_John]

People that have never used a Koken, comparing / complaining about the quality of a ratchet you can literally buy for $30 on amazon.jp! At the price point it's closer to the cost of a HF ratchet than a SO.

It's also ridiculous that there is concern over warranty at that price point. SO you pay triple the cost of the actual tool to cover all the frivolous warranty claims. Koken you get at a good enough price you self warranty if the need comes up. Or buy a readily available rebuild kit yourself.

The fact someone that's never used one feels the need to bash it probably just means they're trying to justify their high dollar truck tools to themselves.

What's apparent is that you enjoy to set up strawmen. If you read my previous statements, I mentioned there is less concern about the warranty when the tool is low dollar. On the other hand, when you pay over $100 for a high end ratchet, esp if you're a professional, you really want a good warranty.

Also, I for one never said that Kokens were bad tools - I was simply arguing that they were mid-tier ratchets, that's all. Mid-tier ratchets with low tooth counts, questionable warranties, and only ONE authorized US distributor.

So, by all means, enjoy your Koken ratchet.

 

[Mr_John]

Bugatti has less than 300 employees, Ferrari less than 4,000. Ford has about 200,000 employees.

According to you, Bugatti and Ferrari would be incapable of producing hi-tech automobiles as Ford.

Rolex has about 2,500 employees, Casio 12,000. Again...see the point?

Please, keep going, it's kinda fun waiting to see how much more ignorance your posts reveal...

Uhmmm, Ferrari is owned by the Fiat group in Italy, that also owns Chrysler and Jeep. And, Bugatti is owned by VW, who owns Porsche, Audi, VW, Lamborghini, and Bentley. It's the largest car manufacturer in the world. You were saying?

Btw, here's an example of just how big VW is -- they own Audi of Germany, the legendary performance automotive company. Audi owns Lamborghini of Italy - and Lamborghini owns Ducati, the famous Italian motorcycles. So, Audi is of course owned by VW, meaning VW owns Ducati motorcycles as well.

Oh, and 2500 employees is a fairly large company, bud. 140 vs 2500, really? I can do the math for you if you like -- Rolex has almost 18 x the employees of Koken, and Rolex also has a massive international authorized retailer and repair network - Koken has ONE authorized retailer in the country with the largest consumer economy in the world.

 

[M6erfan]

Uhmmm, Ferrari is owned by the Fiat group in Italy, that also owns Chrysler and Jeep. And, Bugatti is owned by VW, who owns Porsche, Audi, VW, Lamborghini, and Bentley. It's the largest car manufacturer in the world. You were saying?

Btw, here's an example of just how big VW is -- they own Audi of Germany, the legendary performance automotive company. Audi owns Lamborghini of Italy - and Lamborghini owns Ducati, the famous Italian motorcycles. So, Audi is of course owned by VW, meaning VW owns Ducati motorcycles as well.

Oh, and 2500 employees is a fairly large company, bud. 140 vs 2500, really? I can do the math for you if you like -- Rolex has almost 18 x the employees of Koken, and Rolex also has a massive international authorized retailer and repair network - Koken has ONE authorized retailer in the country with the largest consumer economy in the world.

Nice try bud (lol). Go to the Bugatti or Ferrari factories and how many employees do you see? Counting the parent co. and all their other holdings is silly.

And we're talking ratchets here, quite a smaller market than watches. Get a grip, bud.

 

[Mr_John]

Nice try bud (lol). Go to the Bugatti or Ferrari factories and how many employees do you see? Counting the parent co. and all their other holdings is silly.

And we're talking ratchets here, quite a smaller market than watches. Get a grip, bud.

You're kidding me, right? Rolls Royce, now owned by BMW, and Bentley, now owned by VW, and Lambo, now owned by VW, were all headed into bankruptcy as they tried to produce modern low volume / high dollar vehicles with sophisticated electronics and safety systems and sell them across the world, and comply with ever more stringent pollution standards in Europe and America - their biggest markets. Ha, yeah, pay no mind to that massive engineering facility back in Wolfsburg, Germany - Bugatti is just the assembly workers you see at the assembly plant. What, VW use economies of scale in the manufacturing of Lamborghini - why would they ever do that? And, Rolls Royce -- where do you think they get their engine technology from? Hint, the persons that designed it speak German.

 

[American Locomotive]

Yeah, but most shade tree mechanics aren't Snapon's target audience, anyway. Just like most people wouldn't understand why somebody would spend $5K on a mechanical watch - but most people aren't the target audience of Rolex.

Pro mechanics don't talk about torque wrenches as a halo tool either, or compare the "tier-ness" of brands by if they have a digital torque wrench or not.

Tbh - I think most people are willing to pay over $50 for Koken because it's made in Japan. Make that same ratchet in China, and it probably sells for under $20.

I'm really not sure what you're even trying to argue? The chinese and taiwanese Snap-On F80 equivalants (90-120T store brand ratchets) sell for far cheaper than an F80. If my SK LP90 was made in China, I wouldn't pay $50 for it either. Also, the Koken is $32, not 50. It feels smoother and nicer than my LP90, and I rank my LP90 right up there with the F80.

Nice strawman argument. I'igital torque wrench as ONE example of Koken's lack of advanced manufacturing. Sure, they appear to be very good at designing and meticulously crafting sockets - there's no doubt,

it's not a strawman at all. You quite literally said verbatim that because they don't have digital torque wrenches, they don't have advanced manufacturing capability. It's not just "one example", it's the only example you keep using.

on the other hand, make a large number of both analog and digital torque wrenches as well as a massive line of other tools. One of the electronic torque adapters that KTC makes uses Bluetooth to communicate with a smart device, such as a phone or table. Again, Koken and their 20 - 30 tooth count ratchets, selling for around $30 - $60 are basically a "mid tier" brand. KTC's Nepros is definitely "top tier" -- and their priced top tier as well.

Thay's great for KTC. They are a full line tool manufacturer. That's their thing. Koken makes sockets and ratchets - that's their thing.

Mid tier ratchets can be extremely high quality - I never argued Koken wasn't a high quality piece.

"Mid-tier" had direct implications about quality. Why would a high quality precise ratchet be classified as "mid-tier"? It doesn't make sense.

Okay, so a few seconds difference a month is now "orders of magnitude" according to you? I agree that most $50 + quartz watches will be more accurate than a high quality mechanical movement, but I do NOT agree that the difference in accuracy is "orders of magnitude." You have a tendency to exaggerate I've noticed.

+6/-4 seconds per day means up to 120-180 seconds per month. A cheap digital watch holding +/- 10 seconds per month is literally an order of magnitude better. Literally, by the definition of order of magnitude. A mid range digital watch holding +/- 10 seconds per year is an order of magnitude better than that - two orders of magnitude more precise than that rolex.

Yes, the entire company has only 140 employees - so, yeah, it's THAT simple.

Are you trying to imply the size of the company and number of emoloyees is somehow related to quality and "tier-ness"?

 

[Spacey_G]

I don't understand all this hang-up about Koken not making torque wrenches. The ratchet is not the important part of a torque wrench. Not surprising at all that a company specializing in sockets and ratchets doesn't make one.

 

[Samuel D]

"Mid-tier" had direct implications about quality. Why would a high quality precise ratchet be classified as "mid-tier"? It doesn't make sense.

I think we’re getting to the bottom of this. The Koken’s price is too low! Not unlike a Casio watch or a Ford car, never mind that those two examples are more technologically accomplished in many was than a Rolex or a Ferrari respectively. (Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t like a Rolex, mind you.)

 

[ChrisLS8]

What's apparent is that you enjoy to set up strawmen. If you read my previous statements, I mentioned there is less concern about the warranty when the tool is low dollar. On the other hand, when you pay over $100 for a high end ratchet, esp if you're a professional, you really want a good warranty.

Also, I for one never said that Kokens were bad tools - I was simply arguing that they were mid-tier ratchets, that's all. Mid-tier ratchets with low tooth counts, questionable warranties, and only ONE authorized US distributor.

So, by all means, enjoy your Koken ratchet.

Your posts are giving me Forest Whitaker eye. I can't tell if you are being serious or trolling with some of your goofy arguments