Beginning machine work help

[DavidR8]

Hi all, I'm a long time lurker with garage ambitions for my 20X23 garage.
Part of what I'd like to include in my space is a small lathe or mill to make various items for motorcycles I restore. Things like clevis pins, threaded mounts and similar.

I've looked at mini-lathes and see that they get all kinds of mixed reviews.
There doesn't seem to be an equivalent in milling machines.

I have no experience with either tool however and so I'm stumped as to how to even start.

 

[Robert Haas]

Lathe should be simple enough. Look for a South bend built after 1950 and you will be on the road.

Mills are another story. A knee mill like a J head Bridgeport of similar vintage as the lathe I recommended is very desirable as a first mill. Just be aware when it comes to mills you will spend 3 times what the mill costs on tooling and instrumentation.

 

[DavidR8]

Thanks Robert, I'll keep my eyes open.
Is there a second runner up to a South Bend?

 

[kazlx]

If you have the room, get a decent size mill and lathe. You can often get nicer equipment for less money. I see you're in BC, so not sure exactly how it works up there power wise, but even smaller industrial size stuff isn't terribly hard to come by.

Logan, South Bend, some others like that are good for smallish lathes. Bridgeport is pretty much the standard for a mill, but there are other and smaller machines like a Hardinge or Clausing can be found. They can be a bit more money, even being less capable, just because of the desirable small footprint. Bridgeport did make mills with 32" tables, which would be sweet for a smaller garage.

If you build bikes, you will wonder how you lived without a mill and lathe. I think you'll quickly get addicted. You could start with either, they are really only limited by ingenuity on setups. I'd just try to find the right machine.

I started with an 11" Logan and quickly moved up the chain. Now I have a full CNC mill in my garage and love every bit of it.

Watch some vids on youtube of basic lathe and mill operation. This Old Tony is great. From there, just cruise some classifieds and if a machine pops up that suits your liking, hit the google and do some research or post on here and we'll help you out.

I bought my first lathe and didn't know a damn thing. The machines themselves are relatively simple, it's the setups that take learning and creativity. Just respect the machines, think about what you want to accomplish and plan it out. Don't be stupid and you'll be fine.

I think another solid method is get a little knowledge and go to some local machine shops and ask if they have any machines sitting they would be interested in selling. I think you could easily dig up some manual machines that could be a good start.

 

[homebuilt burner]

I would suggest a class at a local community college.

 

[Downwindtracker 2]

When that question gets asked, the answers you get are very regional, some one in the iron rich mid-west of the states will suggest Bridgeports mills and South Bends lathes. Good luck finding any around here. However, Grizzly/BusyBee got their start here, so you should be able to find some Taiwanese lathes from the '90s. These are good lathes. Mills are a different story . A clapped out Bridgeport clone project will go for $3,500. Used round column mill/drills go for more than the price when they were new. Here I would be tempted to look at new.

Not having a lathe and a welder in your garage is like being naked in a blizzard.

 

[The Cobbler]

Standard Modern is a good Canadian name for lathes . keep an eye open in Kijiji or whatever you have out there for classifieds.
I found a 13"x30 lathe with a fair bit of tooling and a 3 & 4 jaw chuck about 4 years ago for $2g taxes in .
you want to check for excessive backlash in all the feeds , excessive wear on the ways and general overall condition. for non precision parts , play is more acceptable. ( all lathes have play, just more as they get well iused)
it's fun , and a lot of stuff can be dome on a lathe that you can't do otherwise .
you tube is probably a good place to get some basic lathe knowledge

 

[larry_g]

https://vancouver.craigslist.org/van/tld/d/langley-boxford-metal-lathes-for-sale/6948093610.html

https://vancouver.craigslist.org/van/tls/d/abbotsford-southeast-south-bend-lathe-9a/6975224263.html

The Boxford lathe is an english copy of the SB. One thing to pay attention to is whether you are working in the metric or english system. Much easier to make parts on a lathe that reads in YOUR measurement system. Either will work, but it may take some converting of numbers or change gears. If you really want to just make parts and not have a project machine then some of the new Asian imports are worth looking at.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[DavidR8]

When that question gets asked, the answers you get are very regional, some one in the iron rich mid-west of the states will suggest Bridgeports mills and South Bends lathes. Good luck finding any around here. However, Grizzly/BusyBee got their start here, so you should be able to find some Taiwanese lathes from the '90s. These are good lathes. Mills are a different story . A clapped out Bridgeport clone project will go for $3,500. Used round column mill/drills go for more than the price when they were new. Here I would be tempted to look at new.

Not having a lathe and a welder in your garage is like being naked in a blizzard.

I concur on the welder. When I bought my Millermatic 130 some years ago I couldn’t believe how useful it became.

I live on Vancouver Island so access to machinery is a bit of a trick. A ferry ride for two people is a cool $100 each way.


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[DavidR8]

https://vancouver.craigslist.org/van/tld/d/langley-boxford-metal-lathes-for-sale/6948093610.html

https://vancouver.craigslist.org/van/tls/d/abbotsford-southeast-south-bend-lathe-9a/6975224263.html

The Boxford lathe is an english copy of the SB. One thing to pay attention to is whether you are working in the metric or english system. Much easier to make parts on a lathe that reads in YOUR measurement system. Either will work, but it may take some converting of numbers or change gears. If you really want to just make parts and not have a project machine then some of the new Asian imports are worth looking at.

lg
no neat sig line

I think I saw an ad for another lathe like the second listing today. Can’t seem to find it now.

I did find this however.
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/478911432962688/

Edit - scratch the last listing as reviews are not so great.

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[Downwindtracker 2]

https://vancouver.craigslist.org/van/tld/d/langley-boxford-metal-lathes-for-sale/6948093610.html

https://vancouver.craigslist.org/van/tls/d/abbotsford-southeast-south-bend-lathe-9a/6975224263.html

The Boxford lathe is an english copy of the SB. One thing to pay attention to is whether you are working in the metric or english system. Much easier to make parts on a lathe that reads in YOUR measurement system. Either will work, but it may take some converting of numbers or change gears. If you really want to just make parts and not have a project machine then some of the new Asian imports are worth looking at.

lg
no neat sig line

That might be Coast Machine on the Boxfords. They are dealers, but you can bargain with them. $2200 , plus ferry. Boxfords are an updated copy of the South Bend. $1500 is high for a project South Bend. At that price you should be able to get a cherry Taiwanese Generic 12x37. If you go that route, make sure you get the two metric conversion gears.

 

[matt_i]

Another question you might want answered is: how to check a machine for wear?

couple of ideas. you can turn a test bar, I like to use something like 1-1/2" x 6" aluminum in any chuck. Turn to cleanup first, turn a very light cut ~.002" depth with a sharp tool. Mic the distal end and near the shoulder closest to the chuck and compare the readings. Offer to cleanup the machine with the shop vac that you brought along.

Check for backlash in the cross-feed screw. There's always some but excessive....lets just say .040-.050 of lost motion is well-worn in my view.

Then you can take a dial test indicator on a magnet base, attach to the carriage and trace the tailstock way across the full travel of the bedway. The basic premise is that the tailstock way is likely fairly pristine and wear in the bedway itself shows up as an out-of-parallel condition that the test indicator can pickup.

 

[DavidR8]

This has been a good education for me.
I'm definitely hooked on the idea. Just need to find the right machine.
The idea of a course is a good one. As is This Old Tony YouTube channel!

I also discovered Blondihacks which seems like a decent resource for me.

 

[matt_i]

Also wanted to mention as a machine tool owner you are suddenly thrust into the role of an amateur rigger. So its good to think about how you are going to lift and transport the heavy loads as usually one has reached the end of armstrong motive power. A lathe, especially a benchtop unit, is very top heavy.

 

[DavidR8]

Good point @matt_i!
They are heavier than anything I’ve had to lift before. Though lifting a VW engine and carrying it down a flight of stairs was probably a 100#+ lift.
That was when I was young and invincible.


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[DavidR8]

What’s the opinion on Atlas lathes?
There’s a used 618 for sale near me.
http://r.used.ca/classified-ad/34583463


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Edit: a bit of research indicates that I’m probably better off looking for a different machine.

 

[Downwindtracker 2]

With the tooling, that's a good deal. You have to be gentle with them, they have pot metal gears.

 

[DavidR8]

Thanks @Downwindtracker
That’s good advice.


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[Mandres]

Nothing wrong with starting with an Atlas/Craftsman if you find a good deal. That one looks like a pretty good deal considering the tooling and accessories and the US/CA $ exchange rate. They're not as highly regarded as a South Bend or Logan for the hobbyist, but they can do the job. They're much nicer than the generic imported mini-lathes which can be around the same price.

I got lucky last year and picked up my Logan 11" for $800. The guy was asking $1,300 initially, and in my region that's about what they're worth. I'm still in the process of cleaning and restoring it.

 

[theoldwizard1]

If space is an issue, check out Little Machine Shop. They sell small mills and lathes and a lot of other accessories.

If you spend some time on their website, there is a lot of good information there, you just have to dig for it.

Those machines are great for plastic, brass and aluminum. They will cut steel, but you have to use very shallow cuts (i.e. multiple passes). There are several good websites out there so look around.

You can quickly spend more on measuring device (DRO are nice !) and tooling than you spent on the machine, even a medium sized Grizzly or Rong Fu mill.

Depending on what you want to use it for (how accurate do you need it to be) old "production" machines will have a wear pattern in the ways. It can be significant. Getting it out is not a job for amateurs.

 

[ItsNemo]

LoL south bend and bridgeports up here in Canada? Few and far between...you might find the odd completely trashed one but even clean ones at expensive prices are pretty hard to come by.

 

[DavidR8]

The best sub $2000 lathes I’ve seen in my area are the Atlas 618 posted above or a Grizzly 768.
Never seen a South Bend or Bridgeport machine for sale within 200 miles.


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[DavidR8]

This popped up in my local Used classifieds.
Seems pricey to me.
Thoughts?
https://www.usedvictoria.com/classified-ad/south-bend-lathe_33344755

 

[MFolks]

Look at Grizzly for Taiwan made machines,read the reviews,used machines show up from other makers on websites,also.

 

[larry_g]

This popped up in my local Used classifieds.
Seems pricey to me.
Thoughts?
https://www.usedvictoria.com/classified-ad/south-bend-lathe_33344755

If you get that without having to pay ferry rides and other expenses then it is an OK price. Nothing to write home about but OK. I started with an Atlas 618 and would not consider one again, just to lite and weak. However it was able to use it and send it on down the road for what I paid for it. That lathe will do the same for you. You can use it till you learn what it is you really need and want. Sell it for what you paid for it and move up. I've found that most old machine tools are perty stable in price over the years. Some areas that lathe would have an asking price of $2k.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[DavidR8]

If you get that without having to pay ferry rides and other expenses then it is an OK price. Nothing to write home about but OK. I started with an Atlas 618 and would not consider one again, just to lite and weak. However it was able to use it and send it on down the road for what I paid for it. That lathe will do the same for you. You can use it till you learn what it is you really need and want. Sell it for what you paid for it and move up. I've found that most old machine tools are perty stable in price over the years. Some areas that lathe would have an asking price of $2k.



lg

no neat sig line

Thanks, I appreciate the advice.
It’s been for sale since May so if I decide to go for it I’ll go in low and see what happens.


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[Jason280]

The best thing about the South Bend & Atlas/Craftsman lathes are parts are typically readily available, and most are just a click away on eBay. Granted, some items can get expensive (depending on the model), but the parts are available.

As far as the lathe you linked is concerned, I would try and hold out for something with a quick change gear box. I'm not sure what the market is like in Canada, so that may not be an option, but if you plan on cutting gears it is a whole lot easier. At least the one you linked has the QC gears, but you need to make sure they are all there. Also, make sure it is actually set up and ready to run, don't buy anything you can't turn a few pieces on to try out!

Regardless of which one you go with, be prepared to spend damn near as much in tooling, set up equipment, micrometers/indicators, and such. It's definitely an addiction!

 

[DavidR8]

The best thing about the South Bend & Atlas/Craftsman lathes are parts are typically readily available, and most are just a click away on eBay. Granted, some items can get expensive (depending on the model), but the parts are available.

As far as the lathe you linked is concerned, I would try and hold out for something with a quick change gear box. I'm not sure what the market is like in Canada, so that may not be an option, but if you plan on cutting gears it is a whole lot easier. At least the one you linked has the QC gears, but you need to make sure they are all there. Also, make sure it is actually set up and ready to run, don't buy anything you can't turn a few pieces on to try out!

Regardless of which one you go with, be prepared to spend damn near as much in tooling, set up equipment, micrometers/indicators, and such. It's definitely an addiction!

The market here is unpredictable. There was a import 9xX lathe for sale a while back, looked like it had a really hard life. Person was asking $600.

Then this South Bend, been listed since May. Can't be a good sign.

I'm not sure I'm savvy enough to venture into a lathe rebuild although I suppose it's a way to learn. If the SB was cheap enough maybe but something tells me the seller won't take what I'm willing to offer.

 

[Downwindtracker 2]

I would look at used Taiwanese 12x37 BusyBee, (Grizzly) over a used South Bend. Bigger, much more modern, with hardened ways. A lot of them went to hobbyists , so it's possible to find a cherry.

This will start a fire that only Californians generally experience, but I was PMing a machinist about my 12x24 version. I changed the belts and while I was at it, the bearings. He said he thought the 12x37 was a better lathe than the South Bend Heavy Ten, having worked with both . He went on to a #2000 class lathe.

There is 14" Colchester on Craig's List on this side of the water. If I had the floor space and money....... A VFD would solve the 440volt 3ph..........

Lathe tooling is no where near as bad mill tooling. Even cheap Chinese is ****** expensive.

 

[DavidR8]

I would look at used Taiwanese 12x37 BusyBee, (Grizzly) over a used South Bend. Bigger, much more modern, with hardened ways. A lot of them went to hobbyists , so it's possible to find a cherry.

This will start a fire that only Californians generally experience, but I was PMing a machinist about my 12x24 version. I changed the belts and while I was at it, the bearings. He said he thought the 12x37 was a better lathe than the South Bend Heavy Ten, having worked with both . He went on to a #2000 class lathe.

There is 14" Colchester on Craig's List on this side of the water. If I had the floor space and money....... A VFD would solve the 440volt 3ph..........

Lathe tooling is no where near as bad mill tooling. Even cheap Chinese is ****** expensive.

I saw that lathe in the listings. Definitely interesting but like you I'm restricted in space and cash.

There's also two Myford ML7's for sale but I know nothing about them.

Also a Busy Bee 12x37 for $2500 here in Victoria.
https://victoria.craigslist.org/tls/d/victoria-busy-bee-lathe/7000218262.html

 

[Downwindtracker 2]

The Myford 7, is an excellent little lathe. All those English hobby machinist books feature it I'm sure.

That's expensive, but if it's cherry. If it has the steady rest , fellow rest, 4 jaw chuck, 3 jaw chuck, faceplate , drill chuck and a variety of centers, live , solid, and pipe. And if the 4 way tool post has been changed over to the quick change . With the stand and pump, it is worth that. If he throws in name brand mikes and dial indicators, jump on it.

Look at the price of the current BusyBee 12" offerings. While these are gearheads, they are also pretty rough. I've tried to go by the rule: 1/3 new for machinery purchases.

Mine should look so nice !

 

[DavidR8]

The Myford 7, is an excellent little lathe. All those English hobby machinist books feature it I'm sure.

That's expensive, but if it's cherry. If it has the steady rest , fellow rest, 4 jaw chuck, 3 jaw chuck, faceplate , drill chuck and a variety of centers, live , solid, and pipe. And if the 4 way tool post has been changed over to the quick change . With the stand and pump, it is worth that. If he throws in name brand mikes and dial indicators, jump on it.

Look at the price of the current BusyBee 12" offerings. While these are gearheads, they are also pretty rough. I've tried to go by the rule: 1/3 new for machinery purchases.

Mine should look so nice !

This Myford 7 is the basically the same price as the Busy Bee. It looks like it just rolled off the factory floor.
https://www.usedvictoria.com/classified-ad/Myford-ML7-Metal-lathe_34626600

Busy Bee looks to be piled in a mess of other stuff. I'm curious enough to take a look at both.

 

[DavidR8]

I decided to order a 7x14 mini lathe so that I could start learning.
Should be here in a few days.
Let the games begin!


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[Shadowdog500]

I decided to order a 7x14 mini lathe so that I could start learning.
Should be here in a few days.
Let the games begin!


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That is a good lathe to learn on. I had one for 7 years an did a lot of projects on it before picking up much bigger lathe on Craigslist.

The reason I think it is good to learn on is that it is easy to get, inexpensive, and parts and upgrades are inexpensive and readily available at Little machine shop. In addition the little lathe will probably stall out before it does something bad to you if you screw up while learning.

I sold mine for almost what I had into it when I bought a bigger lathe.

 

[DavidR8]

Thanks @shadowdog505 I had to weigh the benefits and drawbacks of a larger used lathe against a smaller new lathe.
The fact of the matter is that while I’m mechanically competent I’m not in a position to evaluate a used lathe at this point.


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[gte718p]

Thanks @shadowdog505 I had to weigh the benefits and drawbacks of a larger used lathe against a smaller new lathe.
The fact of the matter is that while I’m mechanically competent I’m not in a position to evaluate a used lathe at this point.


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Everyone here thinks you need full size ancient machine tools. The little 7x12 is a great choice. It you can learn a lot on it and make really good parts.

Watch clickspring on youtube. He uses an import micro lathe. Admittedly he mostly works in brass, but makes absolutely amazing parts.

 

[DavidR8]

Everyone here thinks you need full size ancient machine tools. The little 7x12 is a great choice. It you can learn a lot on it and make really good parts.



Watch clickspring on youtube. He uses an import micro lathe. Admittedly he mostly works in brass, but makes absolutely amazing parts.

My only concern is that I’m going to get a dud and spend hours upon hours getting it into shape.

Mind you I’d have to do that with an older lathe of unknown condition and likely be in for more dollars at the outset.


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[gte718p]

My only concern is that I’m going to get a dud and spend hours upon hours getting it into shape.

Mind you I’d have to do that with an older lathe of unknown condition and likely be in for more dollars at the outset.


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I guarantee you are going to spend hours getting it into shape. That is part of the learning process

You will even if you buy a high dollar lathe. You still have to get it leveled in three directions and ensure all the geometry is right. Evey machine I have ever used has some idiosyncrasies that you have to tune up or learn to work around.

However starting out you don't need to have .00001 in precision. Most things a beginner is going to make work within a .01 in. Even if the lathe is not "right" most of the things you make will work. As your skills increase, you will start noticing the little annoyances where the machine is not quite right. You make small changes as your skills and projects demand. After a while you have a fully dialed in machine.

 

[Shadowdog500]

My only concern is that I’m going to get a dud and spend hours upon hours getting it into shape.

Mind you I’d have to do that with an older lathe of unknown condition and likely be in for more dollars at the outset.


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I also agree that you will spend hours getting it in shape and agree that it will be good for the learning process on the lathe. It is a very simple lathe and is easy to work on. When I bought my bigger 11 by 36 lathe on Craigslist I took it apart and cleaned it when I got it home. The experience I got monkeying and modifying, and improving my little lathe gave me the experience and confidence to tear into my bigger lathe.

When I got my mini lathe I needed to shim the apron down from the carriage slightly to center the halfnuts vertically onto the lead screw. I also had to shim the pillow block at the end of the lead screw to align it with the ways horizontally. As time went on I also added a cam lock kit to the tailstock for around $25, a 4 jaw chuck for $80, and a quick change tool post kit for $159. Here is a video I made of the quick change tool post kit

When I was done with it it worked really well. One of the machinists at work liked my finished lathe so much that he bought one and tweaked his up as well so he would have a portable lathe.

I just watched the video I linked and realized that I added metric button head Allen screws on the cross slide and compound wheels. Go to ace hardware they should have them in stock. Stops you from smashing your knuckles on the hex head bolt it comes with.
I added the piece of leather to catch the swarth from falling onto the ways and leadscrew. The small lathe seems to catch a lot of swarth onto the leadscrew.

 

[DavidR8]

Thanks gents, I’m super excited to get my lathe.
I was was watching a series by Aussie Shed which put a bit of fear into me.

He remachined the V-groove (I’m sure there’s a proper term for this) on the cross slide so it better fit the way, spent literally tens of hours sanding the cross slide on the ways to get everything fitted together.

I was thinking “crikey, I have no ability to mill anything, how will I get this thing into shape?”

He may be trying to achieve a very high level of precision and accuracy which is likely beyond my ability to use. At least at this early stage in my learning.

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