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Table Saw HP Downgrade?

Tuhlmann

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Planning a new woodshop. I finally have a space where my tools will not need to be mobile/foldable/portable/etc. Looking at new table saws with a sub-$2000 budget. I currently have a Bosch 4100 on the gravity stand. It's been good to me but I want more mass, refinement, repeatability, & precision. I have 220v power available, and I think I want a hybrid or higher-end contractor saw with a heavy cast iron table and good dust collection characteristics.

3 HP seems to be at the very top of my budget, if at all, with most units sporting 1.75-2 HP motors. My 4100 has a 4 HP motor @ 3650 RPM. I know HP isn't the "be all, end all" of saw characteristics, but how can a guy expect superior performance from a saw with less than half the HP? Is it all just better efficiency? What else am I missing? I'd be pretty miffed to drop two stacks on a fancy saw that ends up feeling anemic compared to my budget portable saw.
 
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dscheidt

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Tuhlmann;8439816My 4100 has a 4 HP motor @ 3650 RPM.[/QUOTE said:
No, it doesn't. It's got 4 HP the same way a vacuum cleaner does. It's probably 1HP.
 

CallumRD1

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I can run my Bosch 4100 off a 120V 15 amp breaker with dust collection, lights, and someone using the drill press all at the same time. So it's not drawing anywhere near 15 amps. Probably less than 1 hp. I don't know where they get 4 horsepower for the product description as a horsepower is 746 watts, and power is just current times voltage, so the absolute maximum power draw possible without tripping a 120V 15 amp breaker is 15*120 = 1800 watts, which is 2.41 hp. Don't get hung up on the advertised power of the saws.
 

American Locomotive

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As others mentioned, the actual real "usable" power of your Bosch will be around 1HP or less. A true 2HP hybrid saw will have much more power than your saw.
 

RKA

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You won’t be able to brag to your neighbor about your 1.75hp cabinet saw, but it will put a smile on your face every time you use it. Take a look at what grizzly has to offer. And is good dust collection budgeted for separately?
 

finn

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Any saw spinning a blade in air is using virtually zero hp. Peak hp is generated only when the saw blade is buried in hardwood and rpm is beginning to drop.
 

jar944

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Look for a used 220v cabinet saw (powermatic pm66, delta unisaw, grizzly g1021, etc.) any of those should be well under your budget and a huge upgrade from your bosch.

You will be amazed at what a 220v 2hp to 3hp induction motor will cut through.
 

exmaxima1

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Look for a used 220v cabinet saw (powermatic pm66, delta unisaw, grizzly g1021, etc.) any of those should be well under your budget and a huge upgrade from your bosch.

You will be amazed at what a 220v 2hp to 3hp induction motor will cut through.

And even those saws have wildly disparate ratings. My 60's era Unisaw has a 3hp motor that draws the same amperage as my buddy's brand new 5hp Unisaw. The motor on my saw is even physically larger than the newer 5hp. Basically you can't judge saws on power ratings.
 
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Tuhlmann

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......And is good dust collection budgeted for separately?

It is, but I’d much rather prefer to include it in that budget. That’s a whole ‘nother world I need to explore. I only have experience with a Shop-Vac setup, and it is generally not a positive experience. Thought I’d tackle the fun purchase first. Buying a dust collector feels like buying socks and underwear...
 

Max

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A cabinet saw has much better dust collection than a contractor’s saw. The contractor’s saw has the motor outside, so no matter what you do there is a hole for the belt and some kind of kludge for when you need to tilt the blade (which moves where the belt goes). I used one for years, and it’s workable, but also a PITA.

A cabinet saw would also move to (generally) a higher HP motor, a larger top, and more table mass - and of course larger/better trunnions. Probably a better fence as well.

Around here you can get a used PM66 or Unisaw for 1K if you look a bit, 1.5K most of the time, and 2K always. Grizzly is an ok option if you want new, in that case I’d try to stay with Taiwan sourced saws rather than PRC.

Even with great dust collection inside the saw, you’ll still get sawdust from the blade itself. I have one of these and it’s great: https://www.thesharkguard.com/shop/ Make sure you get the 4” version...


- Max
 

turbowoodworker

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HP is nice but there are other important characteristics of a good TS. Good for you (OP) getting the chance to upgrade. Ultimately with a little homework, this next move should make you happy in your future woodworking, and improve outcomes, quality of work. Not to mention safety improvements.

Weight and stability. Heavy is good.
An improved, strong straight fence.
Straight, heavy table with good miter grooves (also larger surface is better).
Cabinet and some hybrids have improved pulleys, and sometimes multiple belts to decrease vibration.
(Can consider aftermarket miter guide or build a good sled).

Just a word about having adequate horsepower for the job. I will use a "far end of the spectrum" example where HP and safety interact. Trying to rip 8/4 hard maple is very difficult. This is where weight and HP interact. Underpowered saws require one to lean into the workpiece creating a potentially dangerous condition. This was one of the greatest changes I noted when going from my good quality contractor's saw to a 220v 5HP Unisaw , was the ease with which I could cut hard, thick material. Now if you never do that type of task, you can feel comfortable with a smaller saw.

I'm betting, with the OP's budget, there is adequate room there for a good hybrid saw.
 

Voi

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A cabinet saw has much better dust collection than a contractor’s saw.

I agree. Get a cabinet saw or a hybrid for better dust collection potential.

Also, the only contractor saw I ever adjusted was a pain with the table mounted trunnions. I understand there are aftermarket adjustment pieces for table mounted trunnions but I do not have experience with them.

I don't pay much attention to woodworking equipment anymore so I'm not sure how common cabinet mounted trunnions are anymore with hybrid saws.
 

seber

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As a casual woodworker I found two hp to be a bit light on occasion in my Unisaw. Eventually I found a 3hp motor that fit. I never felt the need for more than that. On the other hand, that 3 hp is actual not the advertised garbage they are putting out today. As mentioned before, Check the wattage and calculate the actual hp. In general, small motors will be less than 87% efficient. Also, be careful about current draw. Starting current is much higher than running current. You need a little overhead on the circuit size.
 

jar944

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And even those saws have wildly disparate ratings. My 60's era Unisaw has a 3hp motor that draws the same amperage as my buddy's brand new 5hp Unisaw. The motor on my saw is even physically larger than the newer 5hp. Basically you can't judge saws on power ratings.

Power factor and efficiency.

A 5hp induction motor is 5hp. 80to 100 year old 1hp motors are the size of 10hp units now. Though amperage is a reasonable approach. Assume 5amps per hp @ 240v
 

jar944

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As a casual woodworker I found two hp to be a bit light on occasion in my Unisaw. Eventually I found a 3hp motor that fit. I never felt the need for more than that. On the other hand, that 3 hp is actual not the advertised garbage they are putting out today. As mentioned before, Check the wattage and calculate the actual hp. In general, small motors will be less than 87% efficient. Also, be careful about current draw. Starting current is much higher than running current. You need a little overhead on the circuit size.

Combination blades tend to be the worst offender and exaggerated the need for higher horsepower motors.

Stick to a low tooth count rip blade and a high tooth count crosscut (full width kerf) and even 2hp is usually sufficient.
 

jar944

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Around here you can get a used PM66 or Unisaw for 1K if you look a bit, 1.5K most of the time, and 2K always. Grizzly is an ok option if you want new, in that case I’d try to stay with Taiwan sourced saws rather than PRC.

- Max

Not sure of the OPs location but at least where I'm located you can buy cabinet saws (uni or pm) all day long for 1k. $500 if you wait for a deal. I picked up my most recent pm66 for $650 and it included a 1hp 3 wheel powerfeeder.
 

skorpio

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The portable Bosch jobsite saw is likely using a brushless or universal motor which are typically rated at peak HP, any heavy contractors saw, hybrid or most certainly true cabinet saws are using induction motors which are rated as continuous duty HP. The jobsite saw likely converts the AC wall current to DC to control the direction of the motor and is very much like the motor in a hand held power tool. The induction motor uses a capacitor to kick the motor in the right direction when it starts because without it it would just randomly spin in in whatever direction it happened to be the path of least resistance from where it stopped (this is not true of 3 phase induction motors but that's a whole other subject). The 220V 3HP motor alone in my '90s vintage Delta Unisaw weighs about as much as the whole Bosch jobsite saw and requires a magnetic contactor start switch to turn it on. The inrush current of an induction motor will make the life span of a typical mechanical switch fail in a pretty short time span unless it is seriously beefy. This is why electrical wall switches often have a HP rating stamped somewhere on them, this is specifically referring to HP ratings of induction motors and not motors in general. The two types of motors are really apples and oranges.

Even "rated" the "same", stalling the Bosch with a regular thin kerf blade is probably not all that difficult to do, stalling a 4HP 220V cabinet saw is really, really difficult to do, like challenge worthy. The downside of this is that if the jobsite saw were to get a cut tweaked and wedged into the back side of the blade it'll probably stall out and make a loud humm before it trips it's overload protection or the breaker of the circuit it's plugged into, the cabinet saw will, without missing a beat, hurl the wood across room at highway speeds like a helicopter blade being released from the attached aircraft. If your hands happen to be "ANYWHERE NEAR" the blade when this happens they may very well get dragged into the blade. This is why THE most important piece of safety equipment on a table saw is the splitter or riving knife, without it where you THINK your hands are can change way faster than you can possibly react.

Also kinda wanted to point out too that the term "Cabinet Saw" has traditionally meant a saw whose mechanical workings are all mounted to the Cabinet. Meaning the "table" is just a top on that cabinet and is not mounted to any powered mechanicals or blade adjustment mechanism it's just independently mounted to the cabinet and "floats" so that adjusting squareness of it is just loosening a few bolts and rotating it within the slop in the mounting holes. In a contractors saw or a hybrid saw the mechanicals are hung from the table top and the "cabinet" is basically just a box supporting the whole assembly. In one you adjust the top to the blade and in the other the blade to the top. I also want to point out that this is "traditionally" what this meant and what "hybrid" was intended to indicate, a saw that sort of looked like a cabinet saw but was constructed like a contractors saw, though marketing departments have started to blur that definition.
 
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Tuhlmann

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Great info guys, thank you. I hadn’t considered a used machine, but maybe I will dig around a bit to see what’s out there. Anything in particular to watch out for?
 
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Marctrees

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Main thing is quit thinking "New", and start thinking ideally USA made, and include 1940's through 1960's for some real bulletproof real industrial grade multi generation quality stuff.

Rockwell/ Delta, Powermatic, Canadian made ( not the newer asian) General, and some others can't think of now.

Even some 60's to early 80's Sears craftsmans w the outboard belt drive motor ( $150-250) can accept a good aftermarket fence ($400) and end up more than adequate for most guys saw.

If you are agreeable to learning and going on a quest, you will end up w something you will be proud to own and use... not some new **** from china.

Do you want a large extended table for sheet goods ? or a more standard table?

Be aware anything used w a 52" fence can be made smaller if needed.

3 phase will require a VFD, nothing to be scared of.


A few current possibles examples -

https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/for/d/sheboygan-powermatic-65-table-saw-used/7105343765.html

https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/tls/d/caledonia-jet-contractor-saw/7103174546.html

https://greenbay.craigslist.org/tls/d/green-bay-table-saw/7093990923.html

https://madison.craigslist.org/tls/d/morrisonville-powermatic-phase-table-saw/7091664955.html

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/csw/tls/d/watertown-powermatic-10-table-saw/7085399517.html

Marc
 
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Marctrees

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American Loco is correct, there are possible problems... that's why for a newbie it may be best to find something under power from an honest seller.

Only problem is alot of these old machines are purchased by flippers at auctions, so they know no personal history, and often cannot be run before purchase.

But if you find something that grabs you, alot of us here can help you, at least as far as possible being remote.

Marc
 

RKA

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Great info guys, thank you. I hadn’t considered a used machine, but maybe I will dig around a bit to see what’s out there. Anything in particular to watch out for?

That’s the rub (well one of them). You have to have a way to transport it. You have to live in an area where old iron isn’t priced like gold. You have to drop your cheeseburger if an interesting option pops up in a price range that’s agreeable. And it needs to be within a reasonable distance where you’re okay walking away if it’s less than what you want. You have to know what wear items need to be inspected or what damage could be inflicted by user error. And you need time and patience.

I would love to outfit my shop with tools made before the age of off shore manufacturing, but having a new tool shipped to my door with a warranty all ready to run is worth more to me. I still lust after some restored tools you see here. It’s a labor of love for some. But knowing me, if a tool is a project that has to be completed before you can use it for a project, it may be sitting a while. You have you to be realistic and honest with yourself and decide if it’s something you can or want to entertain.
 
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Marctrees

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Bosch 4100 specs shows 15a, actually pretty good for a portable saw.

Ballpark truth is 1.5 hp. (edit- I may be low, others comment please)

Majority of the older saws, some are smaller hp, I talked about are true 3hp, some are 5, so they need 230v

The whole thing is the "Old Arn" stuff basically lasts for multiple generations, normally only needing after many years/ heavy use arbor bearings/ motor ... ALL readily available cause they used common parts.

This is my subjective opinion, but an old for example Unisaw ($500 - 1K in nice condition) that has no visible abuse can actually last a few hundred years in moderate use. Decades and even centurys longer than any new sub 2k saw.

Possibly a moot point though, by then we will have sharks w laser beams on their heads cutting wood in every shop

Marc
 
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Marctrees

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That’s the rub (well one of them). You have to have a way to transport it. You have to live in an area where old iron isn’t priced like gold. You have to drop your cheeseburger if an interesting option pops up in a price range that’s agreeable. And it needs to be within a reasonable distance where you’re okay walking away if it’s less than what you want. You have to know what wear items need to be inspected or what damage could be inflected by user error. And you need time and patience.

I would love to outfit my shop with tools made before the age of off shore manufacturing, but having a new tool shipped to my door with a warranty all ready to run is worth more to me. I still lust after some restored tools you see here. It’s a labor of love for some. But knowing me, if a tool is a project that has to be completed before you can use it for a project, it may be sitting a while. You have you to be realistic and honest with yourself and decide if it’s something you can or want to entertain.


VERY VERY good accurate post.

Every sentence is reality.

Marc
 

tarbellb

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I really took a hit switching from the Dewalt 20v to the Milwaukee 18v!





bahhahahhahaaaa
 

American Locomotive

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Bosch 4100 specs shows 15a, actually pretty good for a portable saw.

Ballpark truth is 1.5 hp. (edit- I may be low, others comment please)

Marc
Most contractor saws (including that Bosch) have a brushed, universal motor. Universal motors have very, very bad efficiency. Usually around 50-60%. That means nearly half of the power gets turned into heat.

So realistically, a 15A brushed saw is around 1HP at best.
 

bubinga

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Look for a used 220v cabinet saw (powermatic pm66, delta unisaw, grizzly g1021, etc.) any of those should be well under your budget and a huge upgrade from your bosch.

You will be amazed at what a 220v 2hp to 3hp induction motor will cut through.
This, I got a deal on a Plug and play 47 unisaw, Took the jet-loc fence off and put a Bis. on.
 

jar944

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That’s the rub (well one of them). You have to have a way to transport it. You have to live in an area where old iron isn’t priced like gold. You have to drop your cheeseburger if an interesting option pops up in a price range that’s agreeable. And it needs to be within a reasonable distance where you’re okay walking away if it’s less than what you want. You have to know what wear items need to be inspected or what damage could be inflicted by user error. And you need time and patience.

I would love to outfit my shop with tools made before the age of off shore manufacturing, but having a new tool shipped to my door with a warranty all ready to run is worth more to me. I still lust after some restored tools you see here. It’s a labor of love for some. But knowing me, if a tool is a project that has to be completed before you can use it for a project, it may be sitting a while. You have you to be realistic and honest with yourself and decide if it’s something you can or want to entertain.

Used machines and project machines are not one and the same. They can be projects but they dont have to be if you buy a machine in good order.

You do sometimes need to drop everything for a deal though.
 

240sxguy

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It is, but I’d much rather prefer to include it in that budget. That’s a whole ‘nother world I need to explore. I only have experience with a Shop-Vac setup, and it is generally not a positive experience. Thought I’d tackle the fun purchase first. Buying a dust collector feels like buying socks and underwear...

There's a very nice Grizzly cabinet saw for sale near Madison right now. I have an old uni saw and absolutely adore it.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/149524849814675/
 
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Marctrees

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I have read tha a 3ph vfd advantage is ability for much faster blade braking... NO personal experience though.

single ph saws normally sell for more than 3 ph ( all else being equal) , and the typical price diff ballpark pays for a VFD... so far as I understand $ wise it's roughly a wash.

Marc
 

bubinga

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bubinga

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There's a very nice Grizzly cabinet saw for sale near Madison right now. I have an old uni saw and absolutely adore it.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/149524849814675/
Heck yeah.
Plug and Play for $600.00

https://scontent-ort2-2.**.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/p720x720/92588113_3057994054244602_6477659303481180160_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_sid=3b2858&_nc_ohc=_ag6os15bIgAX9AqQrD&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.**&_nc_tp=6&oh=310394c4f9c26259e36c788b84da326f&oe=5EB6E7C1
 
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