Helping a friend, GFCI on a shared neutral??

[TT_Vert]

Basically I blew it and didn't think to run two neutrals for the two circuits in the same run and I have no way to pull another wire through the pvc conduit I used due to bends, etc. I had to pull a string through w/ a vacuum as my fish tape kept getting caught on the joints. I have 1 14 AWG wire feeding 3 outlets, one 12 AWG feeding a pump and the shared 12AWG neutral. Also I have the shared 14 AWG ground to all devices. Is there ANYTHING I can do short of running a neutral to get this functioning as I need it to function? I assume if I were to forego the GCFI breaker and put in GCFI outlets I'd still have the same issue correct? I'm so annoyed w/ myself for not considering I'd need two neutrals when using GCFI. This is feeding a pump which sits outdoors under a deck as well as outlets sitting under that same deck so I feel I need GCFI. What if I repurpose my ground as a 2nd neutral?

Thanks guys


Dave

 

[Terry D]

Basically I blew it and didn't think to run two neutrals for the two circuits in the same run and I have no way to pull another wire through the pvc conduit I used due to bends, etc. I had to pull a string through w/ a vacuum as my fish tape kept getting caught on the joints. I have 1 14 AWG wire feeding 3 outlets, one 12 AWG feeding a pump and the shared 12AWG neutral. Also I have the shared 14 AWG ground to all devices. Is there ANYTHING I can do short of running a neutral to get this functioning as I need it to function? I assume if I were to forego the GCFI breaker and put in GCFI outlets I'd still have the same issue correct? I'm so annoyed w/ myself for not considering I'd need two neutrals when using GCFI. This is feeding a pump which sits outdoors under a deck as well as outlets sitting under that same deck so I feel I need GCFI. What if I repurpose my ground as a 2nd neutral?

Thanks guys


Dave

if im reading this right, You have (2) hots sharing (1) neutral and (1) equipment ground. basically you have a multiwire branch circuit with 2 different sized hots. Remove the GFCI breaker and put the 2 hots on a 2-pole 15 amp breaker. You can then add GFCI receptacles on the other end with no problem. The GFCI will see the same current on the neutral as the hot

 

[TT_Vert]

if im reading this right, You have (2) hots sharing (1) neutral and (1) equipment ground. basically you have a multiwire branch circuit with 2 different sized hots. Remove the GFCI breaker and put the 2 hots on a 2-pole 15 amp breaker. You can then add GFCI receptacles on the other end with no problem

I need a 20A breaker and a 15A. I don't "NEED" the 15A breaker but i'm running 14AWG on that circuit. The pump is hardwired to a timer so I need to have that on a GCFI breaker. How would that dual pole breaker be any different than separate 15A and 20A breakers w/ GCFI outlets? Wouldn't the outlets still trip? She also wants to turn the 20A breaker off in winter and leave the 15A on. How horrible of an idea would it be to repurpose the ground as a neutral for the 15A circuit since it's 14AWG and use the existing neutral to just feed the 20A pump circuit/timer since it's a 12AWG wire. What are my repercussions for not grounding but retaining GCFI protection?

Thanks
Dave

 

[Terry D]

I need a 20A breaker and a 15A. I don't "NEED" the 15A breaker but i'm running 14AWG on that circuit. The pump is hardwired to a timer so I need to have that on a GCFI breaker. How would that dual pole breaker be any different than separate 15A and 20A breakers w/ GCFI outlets? Wouldn't the outlets still trip?

Thanks
Dave

When you have a multiwire circuit (2 hots sharing the same neutral)It has to be on a 2-pole breaker to disconnect both hots together. Its for safety and a code requirement. It has nothing to do with your GFCI breaker tripping. If you cant put GFCI receptacles on the other end, you need another neutral

 

[TT_Vert]

When you have a multiwire circuit (2 hots sharing the same neutral)It has to be on a 2-pole breaker to disconnect both hots together. Its for safety and a code requirement. It has nothing to do with your GFCI breaker tripping. If you cant put GFCI receptacles on the other end, you need another neutral

Terry, I had updated my post w/ a question regarding the repercussions of repurposing the ground as another neutral. is that an option? With this I believe I would then have GCFI protection on each circuit since they are now on separate neutrals but I no longer have a ground. obviously. The conduit and all boxes are PVC so they are non conductive.

Thanks
Dave

 

[Terry D]

Is the pump for a swimming pool.

You should be able to use a 2-pole GFCI breaker. It has to be 15 amp though since you used # 14 for one circuit

 

[TT_Vert]

Is the pump for a swimming pool.

You should be able to use a 2-pole GFCI breaker. It has to be 15 amp though since you used # 14 for one circuit

Yes it is. The problem is my neighbor wants to be able to switch the two off independently which is why i was bringing up re purposing the ground.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Basically I blew it and didn't think to run two neutrals for the two circuits in the same run and I have no way to pull another wire through the pvc conduit I used due to bends, etc. I had to pull a string through w/ a vacuum as my fish tape kept getting caught on the joints. I have 1 14 AWG wire feeding 3 outlets, one 12 AWG feeding a pump and the shared 12AWG neutral. Also I have the shared 14 AWG ground to all devices. Is there ANYTHING I can do short of running a neutral to get this functioning as I need it to function? I assume if I were to forego the GCFI breaker and put in GCFI outlets I'd still have the same issue correct? I'm so annoyed w/ myself for not considering I'd need two neutrals when using GCFI. This is feeding a pump which sits outdoors under a deck as well as outlets sitting under that same deck so I feel I need GCFI. What if I repurpose my ground as a 2nd neutral?

Thanks guys


Dave

youve created all sorts of code issues here with the different sizes of wire. Terry addressed most of them.

Why did you use different gauges of wire?

the #14 ground wire limits you to 15a breakers. There is no way around this.

The #14 also limits you to 15a breakers like Terry said

 

[Terry D]

Yes it is. The problem is my neighbor wants to be able to switch the two off independently which is why i was bringing up re purposing the ground.

That pump requires a insulated ground to it by code for safety, you have to keep the ground

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Terry, I had updated my post w/ a question regarding the repercussions of repurposing the ground as another neutral. is that an option? With this I believe I would then have GCFI protection on each circuit since they are now on separate neutrals but I no longer have a ground. obviously. The conduit and all boxes are PVC so they are non conductive.

Thanks
Dave

Is the pump for a swimming pool.

You should be able to use a 2-pole GFCI breaker. It has to be 15 amp though since you used # 14 for one circuit

Yes it is. The problem is my neighbor wants to be able to switch the two off independently which is why i was bringing up re purposing the ground.

since this is for a pool, you need to be very very careful here. The room for shock potential is high. you CANNOT abandoned the ground and run without it.

If they want the ability to control the circuits individually, you reall should have them on separate circuits.

Also, its best to run the pool pump and associated equipment off a subpanel setup just for the pool.

 

[Terry D]

How are you switching them on and off, by the breaker?

 

[TT_Vert]

youve created all sorts of code issues here with the different sizes of wire. Terry addressed most of them.

Why did you use different gauges of wire?

the #14 ground wire limits you to 15a breakers. There is no way around this. The #14 also limits you to 15a breakers like Terry said

My initial goal was to have one 15 amp circuit and one 20 amp circuit. I didn't consider the fact that they could not share a neutral for GCFI. Is installing a ground rod under the deck out of the question here?

 

[TT_Vert]

How are you switching them on and off, by the breaker?

That was her plan. She's worried about having her pump powered all year long. I can flip the power off at the timer itself if need be if that is her concern.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

My initial goal was to have one 15 amp circuit and one 20 amp circuit. I didn't consider the fact that they could not share a neutral for GCFI. Is installing a ground rod under the deck out of the question here?

For what purpose? As an equipment grounding conductor/in place of the ground wire you want to repurpose?

IF so, ABSOLUTELY NOT. a grounding electrode is NOT the same as an equipment grounding conductor. They are 2 different animals. A grounding electrode will NOT provide a low impedance fault current pathway.

No offense, but it's obvious this is over your head. Please, PLEASE get a qualified competent electrician to help you with this.

One wrong move and you can end up killing someone.

 

[Terry D]

I have a question for Wylies, can you GFCI protect both hots on a MWBC with a 2-pole GFCI breaker. I know you can share a neutral with 2-pole AFCI breaker

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I have a question for Wylies, can you GFCI protect both hots on a MWBC with a 2-pole GFCI breaker. I know you can share a neutral with 2-pole AFCI breaker

not sure I understand you question.

Do you mean without a neutral?

 

[Terry D]

not sure I understand you question.

Do you mean without a neutral?

With sharing a netral

 

[wyliesdiesels]

With sharing a netral

yes why? Thats whats used for 120/240v hot tubs...

 

[Terry D]

yes why? Thats whats used for 120/240v hot tubs...

I just wanted to make sure, I thought so, but he could put a 2-pole 15 amp GFCI breaker in the panel and this would work

 

[BFBOB]

Don't see if you said, but if it's solid conductors could you perhaps re-run the wire, but use stranded THWN for easier pulling, and get the proper number and sizes of hots, neutrals and grounds??
.. and the clear pulling juice works really well.

 

[TT_Vert]

Thanks for the concern and being gentle about it lol. I know enough to get myself in trouble. I do more PCB/SMC stuff than residential electric. But now that I understand how the GCFI works by referencing current draw between live and neutral I understand why two breakers on one "reference" neutral is an issue. With that said, I'm going to see what the current draw on her pump is. Using this 2 pole GCFI which will reference the same neutral for both hots should work I would think. I'll just have to tell her that it she wants to kill power to the pump she will have to flip the master on/off at the timer itself rather than at the breaker. I just need to see what sort of current consumption I'm dealing with on this pump. I did use solid THNN and it was a pain in the **** to pull. I'm glad i'm not an electrician. it wasn't that it was so tight, it was more everything was getting hung up on the joints. Even the straight joints.

I ended up going on youtube (My wife did actually) and finding how someone used a shop vac to draw a vacuum and pull string through. I was very skeptical of this but it worked.

 

[7635tools]

As stated above, they all should have been #12 wires but you don’t need a 2 pole breaker for what you want to do. You can put a handle tie between the two breakers so you can still have a 15a and a 20a breaker. You just have to be able to shut both breakers off at the same time for safety reasons and a handle tie will do this. Breakers need to be stacked one on top of the other for this to work. Or if you want to change the wire just use one of the #12’s as a pull wire and pull in new wires. A lot easier with stranded. If you think it’s that tight to pull, you can lube up the wires and it should go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dscheidt]

My initial goal was to have one 15 amp circuit and one 20 amp circuit. I didn't consider the fact that they could not share a neutral for GCFI. Is installing a ground rod under the deck out of the question here?

Swimming pools have a long article of the code for a reason: if you do it wrong, people die. Every word in article 680 is written in blood. Your questions show a profound lack of understanding. Get a professional to do this, before you kill someone.

 

[7635tools]

I should add that if you use the handle tie in the breakers then you can put a gfi receptacle outside. The shared neutral from the breakers doesn’t matter at that point. Where’s the disconnect for the pump? You can turn the pump off right there. By code you need a disconnect for the pump if it’s not within sight and 50’ from the panel.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TT_Vert]

As stated above, they all should have been #12 wires but you don’t need a 2 pole breaker for what you want to do. You can put a handle tie between the two breakers so you can still have a 15a and a 20a breaker. You just have to be able to shut both breakers off at the same time for safety reasons and a handle tie will do this. Breakers need to be stacked one on top of the other for this to work. Or if you want to change the wire just use one of the #12’s as a pull wire and pull in new wires. A lot easier with stranded. If you think it’s that tight to pull, you can lube up the wires and it should go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for all the input guys. Just trying to better understand here. Mind you this was all wired up before w/ no GFI at all and one 12/3 NM so anything i do is a step in a better direction IMO. The pump was right next to the pool before but now I've moved it 20' away to the outside perimeter of the deck for her. No outlet is within 6' of the pool either. We are in an unincorporated farm land where the codes are actually very lax. Not that that is good but it's not like in Chicago.



I assume you are saying use standard 15/20A breakers w/ the handle tie? Doing this doesn't give me GFI on the pump circuit then which has the pump hard wired to a timer. I need the GFI at the source which is why I had two GFI at the panel itself feeding them. The pump is about 25' from the panel but not within sight.

From the other poster, I'm confused why I "should" have run all 12AWG when my plan was to have 2 separate circuits, one 15A and one 20A. I sized the neutral at 12AWG since it was feeding both the 15 and 20A circuit. But in reality, all current will flow on the single neutral back to the box correct so that may an issue as well, no?

Thanks
Dave

 

[Terry D]

Thanks for all the input guys. Just trying to better understand here. Mind you this was all wired up before w/ no GFI at all and one 12/3 NM so anything i do is a step in a better direction IMO. The pump was right next to the pool before but now I've moved it 20' away to the outside perimeter of the deck for her. No outlet is within 6' of the pool either. We are in an unincorporated farm land where the codes are actually very lax. Not that that is good but it's not like in Chicago.



I assume you are saying use standard 15/20A breakers w/ the handle tie? Doing this doesn't give me GFI on the pump circuit then which has the pump hard wired to a timer. I need the GFI at the source which is why I had two GFI at the panel itself feeding them. The pump is about 25' from the panel but not within sight.

From the other poster, I'm confused why I "should" have run all 12AWG when my plan was to have 2 separate circuits, one 15A and one 20A. I sized the neutral at 12AWG since it was feeding both the 15 and 20A circuit. But in reality, all current will flow on the single neutral back to the box correct so that may an issue as well, no?

Thanks
Dave

You can use a 2-pole 15 amp GFCI breaker and it will GFCI protect both lines. You will have to install separate switching elsewhere. Or if you want the GFCI protection outside and still want the pump hardwired, then you are going to have to use a dead front GFCI. Why not just put the pump on a cord, so you can bring it in for the winter. I usually put the GFCI protection out at the pump. I personally don't like GFCI protecting conductors underground.

There is nothing lax about codes for a swimming pool. Pools are pools whether in the city or country

 

[wyliesdiesels]

As stated above, they all should have been #12 wires but you don’t need a 2 pole breaker for what you want to do. You can put a handle tie between the two breakers so you can still have a 15a and a 20a breaker. You just have to be able to shut both breakers off at the same time for safety reasons and a handle tie will do this. Breakers need to be stacked one on top of the other for this to work. Or if you want to change the wire just use one of the #12’s as a pull wire and pull in new wires. A lot easier with stranded. If you think it’s that tight to pull, you can lube up the wires and it should go.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No he cannot since he is using a shared #14 for the EGC. A #12 EGC is required for a 20a breaker

 

[TRWham]

Because the EGC is too small, if you really need 20 A for the pump there is nothing to be done except run new wire. You can continue to wrestle with this conundrum, or save a lot of time by just admitting defeat and pulling in the correct wires now.

What size is the conduit?

 

[TT_Vert]

1/2" sch. 40

 

[EngineerNate]

Re-pull with a dedicated neutral for each circuit and a 12 gauge ground and be done with it. I'd pull all 12 stranded... Cheaper to buy more of one gauge rather than a mix.

5x 12ga stranded thhn in 1/2 pvc is 22% fill. That should be an easy pull if you haven't gone crazy with bends.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

 

[Ohmthis]

I’m adding another part that hinders pulling wire in PVC. Using a pull string cuts into the pipe. Depending on how many bends he has the string digs into each bend and friction cuts the pipe. I’d use the wire to pull in the new wire. Use a **** ton of wire lube, dish soap makes great lube. Listen to the people above about taking this situation as a black and white area with pools. I’ve wired several pools and the codes are very direct and to the point for safety reasons.

 

[nadogail]

IMHO, Stuffing the toothpaste back into the tube might be easier than what I imagine correcting your situation will be. Good Luck.