Snap On Repo Traded Tools?

[Lucid Moments]

You actually have an F80 from my personal box, not from the one I bought a couple of weeks ago. I went through my box to see if the new one was needed, and found I already had two in there, so I pulled one extra out to sell! Since I don't remember where or when I originally bought that one, you've got a real twisted web to follow up on to make sure it is paid for. I don't think I bought it new, I bought my T72's new, but I got the F80's in trade somewhere. Plus, I've used the three I own interchangeably for a couple of years. How are you going to tell which one came from where?

However, in the case of the tools and box i bought, there was no registered lien on them (I actually did check) and the guys story checks out all the way. He was a good solid guy, millright, and the tools and the story all matched up. What I was amused by in my original thread was guys that thought I should somehow call corporate snap-on and ask them if the tools and box (no serial numbers) were paid for. How would Snap-on know that? How would they identify my non-distinctive tools from the millions of other identical ones they sell all the time? I just sent back my fhflf80 for warranty for chrome peeling. (Previous purchase, not from recent box) Is SO going to check that it's paid off before they send me the warranty one back? It's date coded 2018, so it's new enough maybe money is still owed on it? How would they tell it apart from every other one out there?

So, what if I was to sell my personal tool box and snap-on tools, which I have paid cash for, never on credit? To satisfy the due diligence that buyers should do, I should provide them with a affidavit of lien release, signed by the original seller (Snap-on). I'm almost amused enough to call Snap-on corporate, and ask them to sign a lien release on MY personal tools, so that I can sell them to a buyer with a clean record. I'd bet they won't do that. If they won't do that, how do you ever clear the potential lien on a box or tools that were originally bought from Snap-on? Maybe I could get my local Snap-on guy to buy my box for $1, and resell to me for $50 with a receipt to clear the title on it? Maybe finance the $50, let them file a lien, and then get a lien release when I pay the $50 off? Now we're starting to get ridiculous. The law doesn't require you to do stuff like this. It just requires you to act in good faith in not buying something that could reasonably be expected to be stolen.

Every time this whole topic comes up, it's amusing how much speculation there is. I'd love to find a case that I could read that actually allowed a judgement against a third party that bought snap-on tools in good faith from a previous owner who owed money to snap-on. Not on a large, identifiable thing like a scanner or tool box, but on individual, non-distinguishable tools. Not a scammer that bought a box knowing it was illegitimate, and got caught, but someone who bought in good faith. I don't think there's a court in the US that would rule in favor of the repossession of unidentified tools on a lien on a non-specific contract that just says "all tools branded Snap-on in possession of debtor". When the debtor isn't in possession, but a third party is.

In the similar cases I have had direct experience with (two that I recall) the dealer asked for the receipt, and paid the buyer back the exact amount on the receipt, and then took the tools. He then added the receipted amount to the original parties bill, and worked at collecting that through other means. One of those I was actually involved with. A friend that owned a pawn shop had taken in a nice upper and lower box, that I had agreed to buy for the failed pawn fee. We checked with the dealer first (I knew him personally), and found that the buyer had skipped town without paying. The dealer bought them back for the pawn instead. I had a similar situation I knew of where a friend bought tools from a fellow tech leaving town. The dealer bought back those tools for the receipted amount, and then sold them back to the tech to clear the title, but added the purchase price to the debtors bill, and subtracted what he sold them for from the total bill as required by law.

Exactly this

 

[M635_Guy]

You actually have an F80 from my personal box, not from the one I bought a couple of weeks ago. I went through my box to see if the new one was needed, and found I already had two in there, so I pulled one extra out to sell! Since I don't remember where or when I originally bought that one, you've got a real twisted web to follow up on to make sure it is paid for. I don't think I bought it new, I bought my T72's new, but I got the F80's in trade somewhere. Plus, I've used the three I own interchangeably for a couple of years. How are you going to tell which one came from where?

However, in the case of the tools and box i bought, there was no registered lien on them (I actually did check) and the guys story checks out all the way. He was a good solid guy, millright, and the tools and the story all matched up. What I was amused by in my original thread was guys that thought I should somehow call corporate snap-on and ask them if the tools and box (no serial numbers) were paid for. How would Snap-on know that? How would they identify my non-distinctive tools from the millions of other identical ones they sell all the time? I just sent back my fhflf80 for warranty for chrome peeling. (Previous purchase, not from recent box) Is SO going to check that it's paid off before they send me the warranty one back? It's date coded 2018, so it's new enough maybe money is still owed on it? How would they tell it apart from every other one out there?

So, what if I was to sell my personal tool box and snap-on tools, which I have paid cash for, never on credit? To satisfy the due diligence that buyers should do, I should provide them with a affidavit of lien release, signed by the original seller (Snap-on). I'm almost amused enough to call Snap-on corporate, and ask them to sign a lien release on MY personal tools, so that I can sell them to a buyer with a clean record. I'd bet they won't do that. If they won't do that, how do you ever clear the potential lien on a box or tools that were originally bought from Snap-on? Maybe I could get my local Snap-on guy to buy my box for $1, and resell to me for $50 with a receipt to clear the title on it? Maybe finance the $50, let them file a lien, and then get a lien release when I pay the $50 off? Now we're starting to get ridiculous. The law doesn't require you to do stuff like this. It just requires you to act in good faith in not buying something that could reasonably be expected to be stolen.

Every time this whole topic comes up, it's amusing how much speculation there is. I'd love to find a case that I could read that actually allowed a judgement against a third party that bought snap-on tools in good faith from a previous owner who owed money to snap-on. Not on a large, identifiable thing like a scanner or tool box, but on individual, non-distinguishable tools. Not a scammer that bought a box knowing it was illegitimate, and got caught, but someone who bought in good faith. I don't think there's a court in the US that would rule in favor of the repossession of unidentified tools on a lien on a non-specific contract that just says "all tools branded Snap-on in possession of debtor". When the debtor isn't in possession, but a third party is.

In the similar cases I have had direct experience with (two that I recall) the dealer asked for the receipt, and paid the buyer back the exact amount on the receipt, and then took the tools. He then added the receipted amount to the original parties bill, and worked at collecting that through other means. One of those I was actually involved with. A friend that owned a pawn shop had taken in a nice upper and lower box, that I had agreed to buy for the failed pawn fee. We checked with the dealer first (I knew him personally), and found that the buyer had skipped town without paying. The dealer bought them back for the pawn instead. I had a similar situation I knew of where a friend bought tools from a fellow tech leaving town. The dealer bought back those tools for the receipted amount, and then sold them back to the tech to clear the title, but added the purchase price to the debtors bill, and subtracted what he sold them for from the total bill as required by law.

As I said, no shade was cast or intended - it's a great ratchet! (I figured it might have been from your box actually) I just thought it was a strange kind of funny that I arrived in this thread the day the ratchet I bought from you arrived.

As for the rest, sometimes you don't know, and that's fine. I do believe in trying to be as straight as I can, and I'll pay a bit more for certainty on that point, but it's also not my job to protect SO. I'll do what diligence I reasonably can on whatever transaction I'm involved in and live with that. It's worked for me so far...

Now to see how long I can hold out getting an FL80...

 

[cm cm]

Who owes money on a box, and leaves it open??

 

[WittHay]

For as long as i can remember when you purchase a Snap-on box on credit you are renting to own. Snap-on owns the box until the last payment is made. Just the same as buying a piece of farm or construction equipment and different wording than a traditional personal use car loan. Usually called a Conditional Sales Agreement

When you buy a $4000 tool box , the dealer sometimes rolls the revolving account balance of say $800 into the extended credit (EC Loan) Those tools are added to the registered security agreement.

Any Snap-on tool box, scanner or other item bought on EC is not that persons property to sell for at least 2 to 4 years.

Other than that I have no first hand Snap-on or tool truck repo stories. Everybody I know trys to make payments on time and spend within their means.

 

[M635_Guy]

Have you not read or heard anything about the Civil Forfeiture laws in the US? Once you're on that side of the legal equation, you're effectively screw.

That's a dangerous game to play when you haven't protected yourself in writing.

I think most people have a poor understanding of laws in general, and even things like Constitutional Rights. I see lots of people squawk about their First Amendment rights and have no idea that doesn't mean you can say anything you want anywhere you want and have no repercussions. And it goes on from there...

As far as buying a box and a bunch of tools, I'd honestly expect to get a great deal on a "buy it all" vs. what the seller could get selling each thing individually, so it wouldn't necessarily set off any bells in my head. Before this thread I had no idea of the lien registration etc. Snap On uses. Honestly, my first impression was that it was a bit predatory, but I also get that it's a business model based on a business in a truck where the guy is making his living on it, the large number of tools a tech needs to do his work and the fluid nature of the merchandise.

Honestly, the whole business model puzzles me in any mid-sized city and bigger. I can't imagine I'd spend the money SO asks for their boxes/carts and some of their other offerings. (they make some excellent tools - the F80 I just got is manifestly different than anything I've got - but can't see the value-for money on many things they sell, even in a professional setting).

 

[liliysdad]

I dont think anyone here, at least not me, is arguing that the parties named on the contract are culpable...or even that the box itself is an indentured item. Where this thing falls apart, and what has been largely ignored by the Tool Truck Mafia is that a tools owned by a third party are not bound by these terms.

If I buy an empty SnapOn box from Joe, and put my SnapOn tools in it, my tools don't become party to the lien. The assumption of anything different is ludicrous. Further, the box is not "stolen property," its indentured....that's a civil vs criminal distinction. Just as a bank does have the standing to file a stolen vehicle report on a vehicle whose owner has stopped paying, a Truck Monger is not able to do the same with a box.

If a Tool Pimp repossessed a box, I would call that civil....if either party called me to sort the matter out,I would tell them both its civil, but the box stays with the possessor until a judge orders otherwise. If the Tool Pimp took the box, with tools owned by the third party not listed on any contract, I would have no problem charging him with larceny.

Around here, "Innocent Buyer" doctrine outweighs "Dirty Hands" every time. The standard is "Should a reasonable person have known...." Sans title, or other legal mechanism to transfer ownership, a reasonable person would have no reason to believe a transaction is anything but legal.

 

[jimindm]

I didn't go back and read pages from years ago, likely read it at the time.

I have had exactly four so dealers in my almost 40 years of buying tools. They have all been long time dealers or at least the route is owned by one.

I think many are getting confused about the way SO sells tools. Most of the time no dealer is sending a set of wrenches, puller set , or such tools through the corporate extended credit program. Many of these kinds of tools have no serial number and can not be traced.

Not only that, on the business side, snap on and that dealer both know that a good dealer should be able to keep on the truck account. No dealer will survive selling tools on EC through SO and just collect corporate money. They have to have cash flow. Corporate knows a dealer with no cash flow, will not be a dealer for long.

Tools with serial numbers are the more higher priced stuff. Not always as many of their battery powered stuff and air tools have them also. A lot of this stuff again can go either way, the dealer can cover it or it may go the EC route with corporate.

Bigger equipment almost always has a serial number. I am talking about stuff that costs thousands. Tool boxes, scanners and such. These sales almost always go through EC accounts.

What has not been mentioned in the last few pages is those items all have a value, and just like that car loan, are only worth what they can be sold for. I think that is why any other SO tool in possession is fair game.

You can not buy a car on 84 months, put 100k on the clock in two years, and expect to just give it back to the loan company and expect them to be whole. Same with anything else financed. If the value does not cover what is owed, some one owes that.

Now back to the business side again. The dealer is the authorized agent for the company. He is just the middle man. Corporate does not want him in the middle of it, other than satisfying there position. He is the one that puts a value on stuff.

Same idea with the used car. He gets what he can get to satisfy corporate. They put pretty good numbers on the repo stuff. Most likely the stuff will get sold by the dealer doing it. Corporate does not want it back, and some one will have to sell it.

The are a few good reasons why a shop owner would allow this to happen, in their shop. They are business owners also. They expect to provide a service and be paid too. No different than the tool guy. They more than likely have equipment that may have to be serviced by or updated my SO one day. Think the tools guy will be working with him much about that. Lastly an owner wants integrity of their employees. If that tech or others in the shop, are screwing the tool guy, when are they going to screw him. When is something going to come up missing in the shop or a customer vehicle.

Now corporate is not stupid. Their financial arm of the business, the one that is putting loans out there to people to buy their products certainly have some losses. No different than the buy here, pay here car sellers, or the furniture stores, or any one else that offers financing. They are going to have losses.

Last thing about that. As long as they get back what ever they loaned on, I think they are satisfied. I guess I have never heard of them ever going after some one ever. Honestly the value of what they would get in the end, if anything, likely would not be worth it. Lets be honest, the tool guys will be way far down the list, of people trying to collect from most of this type of people.

Now when it comes to third party I would guess how it is handled is any ones guess. I would bet that SO has seen their fair share of not paid for tools. They likely have a pretty good idea how to handle it by now and the best outcome for everyone.

One thing I would say is I think most people are a pretty good judge of character. Most people do have an idea what is right and wrong. If a deal is to good to pass up, you likely should pass.

Last thing I would say is I have been to a lot of shop auctions over the years. When it comes to higher priced equipment you bet some one asks if there are liens on it. It is always announced bore that item is sold. Again no auctioneer wants to get in the middle of this. You can bet he know what he is selling and know who he is selling it for. Just like anything else that is financed. I have seen them sell lots of financed stuff over the years, and they make the announcement that it may be selling on the "if", or they may know how much the lender is willing to let it go for.

 

[jimindm]

SSdave. I do not want to get in the between the two of you.

You make a valid point on small non identifiable tools. No numbers, how can any one trace ownership to them. Third party for sure, most of the time. Now if he tool guy showed up with the proper numbers on the box, and for the most part every tool in the box was on the lien, I think he may have something there.

Be honest, most of us could tell an impact that is a few months old. If the tool guy could show paper work about items that sort of match up, I think he would sort of have a right to them.

In no way would I think he has rights to anything, if is was blended in with a bunch of other tools in the box, but if it was just the suspect box and for the most part the suspect tools, he may have some leverage.

 

[liliysdad]

Again..this will vary (moderately) by state...

But a lien is largely unenforceable without positive ID. A toolbox or impact with a serial? Sure...

A set of wrenches that happen to be the same a SKU as those owned by the debtor, in possession of an unassociated third party? Get the hell out of here with that nonsense.

 

[Lucid Moments]

Again..this will vary (moderately) by state...

But a lien is largely unenforceable without positive ID. A toolbox or impact with a serial? Sure...

A set of wrenches that happen to be the same a SKU as those owned by the debtor, in possession of an unassociated third party? Get the hell out of here with that nonsense.

What I have said repeatedly.

 

[Coach James]

I have no idea what anyone rights are in these situations, but I asked my friend again what she would do. She owns two SO routes, and I asked what she would do.

She said they would first try to collect from the original buyer, including going to court. If unable to, they would repo the box from who had it, but they would offer a guy another used box at her cost. She also said they would not take the guys tools, that she wanted the box back, not to put a third party out of business.

I do not know if her way is legal or not.

Coach

 

[Bigblockyeti]

I think another part of the CYA protocol would be to limit how much the seller knows about you, even if it's not a great deal, doesn't mean there's automatically no existing lien. When I buy something used, I usually don't know much about the seller and they damn sure don't know much about me.

 

[liliysdad]

Now, you're edging into dishonest territory. You're saying that you have some inkling the tools aren't legitimate, so you are going to hide your identity so they can't be traced to you. You're not on good moral ground here, although this may be a practical way to get away from the law when the tools are discovered to be stolen or owed on.

I can see how you wound construe that...but I don't think its necessarily his intent.

A good policy with any transaction is to keep your profile low. I operate under this theory when buying or selling anything. Pay with cash, don't share any more info than necessary, don't create any unnecessary paper trails...not for dishonest nor nefarious means, there simply isn't any real benefit to doing otherwise.

 

[Bigblockyeti]

I can see how you wound construe that...but I don't think its necessarily his intent.

A good policy with any transaction is to keep your profile low. I operate under this theory when buying or selling anything. Pay with cash, don't share any more info than necessary, don't create any unnecessary paper trails...not for dishonest nor nefarious means, there simply isn't any real benefit to doing otherwise.

It's not my intent, thus the reason I phrased it the way I did. The seller is on a need to know basis and so am I, nothing more than that.

 

[Lucid Moments]

I will agree that I would never intentionally buy stolen items, or items that have a lien against them, but I disagee that I have a duty to search to find out. I have bought used tools on craigslist before and never knew the name of the person I bought them from and they never knew mine. Not because either of us were intentionally avoiding that but because that is the way craigslist works. We met in a public place, he showed me the tools and I showed him the money. Exchanged tools for money and left. Done that a few times now.

 

[M635_Guy]

I try pretty hard to not execute "eyes closed" transactions when buying something. The idea that I might encourage or support theft isn't something I want in my life. That might make me stupid, but I sleep well.

 

[Sliceddeuce]

Help me out here....There are people that finance tools??

 

[M635_Guy]

Help me out here....There are people that finance tools??

Techs in shops

Why is that puzzling?

 

[Skin]

It's a matter of perspective.

I'm amazed that people finance cars. I've always paid cash.

I'm at the point now that I pay cash for houses that I build myself, so having a monthly house payment is an alien concept. I've done that for the last 3 I have built.

Depends how you allocate funds. Quite a few funnel their paycheck into retirement, pay their bills, then have money left over for whatever may come up (kids, education, vacations, renovations etc..). Generally you're not going to have 25-40k in cash lying around and, provided you have the credit history, financing a vehicle for 3-5 years at 1-2% is well worth the convenience. Especially after you factor in the cost of repairs to keep an older vehicle road worthy while trying to save up the full amount in cash.

 

[yardiron]

Help me out here....There are people that finance tools??

Techs in shops

Why is that puzzling?

When I retired from wrenching 12 years ago the average guy in the shop owed the Snap On guy between $5k and $10k, plus held a balance on several of the other tool trucks.

Personally I wouldn't ever go that route, if I can't afford it cash, I can't afford it period. There were enough guys going out of the business dumping their tools for cheap that deals were always there to be had.

When it came to guys selling off tools in the shop when they were quitting, most guys wouldn't touch anything that was owed on out of respect for the Snap On guy we had, but legally, if it wasn't serialized, it wasn't traceable and a Snap On guy couldn't touch it once it was out of the hands of the guy who bought it and owed him money. Many shop owners or managers though would really frown upon anyone buying tools that weren't paid for.

The most common deals were newbie techs who bought a ton of stuff through the local college program or tech school at a big discount who suddenly decided they didn't want to do it anymore.

When those kids bought their tools, there was no dealer involved and in most cases I suppose their parents sprang for the tools and tuition because most didn't stay in the program, and many just dumped their tools for cheap when they walked off the job. Most seemed to quit either when the weather got warm or just as hunting season began. Anyone with a few bucks in their pockets usually got a slew of tools and a box for cheap. Usually they dumped their tools and box so cheap that if there was something in the box that belonged to the Snap On man, I just gave it back him as a favor. The goodwill usually paid off ten fold in the long run.

 

[EMD710]

holy cow, I owed the tool trucks quite a sum at times but never into the thousands of dollars! these new youngsters today an instant gratification! all my tools are home in my small garage now taking up space. the wifey wants them gone maybe i should start a used tool truck hahah

 

[BDT/NWMN]

holy cow, I owed the tool trucks quite a sum at times but never into the thousands of dollars! these new youngsters today an instant gratification! all my tools are home in my small garage now taking up space. the wifey wants them gone maybe i should start a used tool truck hahah

Yikes,, I am thinking a bunch of us should chip in and get You one of those wifey diagnostic manuals..

Over the last 48 years, there have been three times when I parked My toolbox and took on other work. As a security blanket; it has always been there if or when needed.

 

[Skin]

holy cow, I owed the tool trucks quite a sum at times but never into the thousands of dollars! these new youngsters today an instant gratification! all my tools are home in my small garage now taking up space. the wifey wants them gone maybe i should start a used tool truck hahah

Truck tool inflation is insane so its not totally about irresponsible youngsters or instant gratification. Snap-on has bi-yearly increases for a total yearly bump of nearly 5-8%. Your bog standard 3/8" ratchet is $120 and a 10pc long combo set is around $500. 'Oh, you'd like a scan tool? Come bend over this counter and I'll show you what I have.' They've made it impossible to not have a bill for thousands even just equipping the basics.

Couple that with the fact that the average mechanic salary is 40-50k, with many places starting at hourly wages nearly identical to that of 20 years ago, and you get a recipe for a lot of debt.

Its literally the same problem with the higher education system in this country going from affordable with some savings and a job or two back in the 60s and 70s to now needing massive student loans that you're stuck paying for a decade or more after graduation.

 

[Wrench97]

I've been doing this a long time, while I have accounts on several tool trucks it's been over 40 years since I have owed any of them more the $500 for over a month. In fact I've had several call me when they are looking to move something reasonably priced for cash in a hurry. keeping a good rep with the tool man has more then payed off for me.
If you have a dealer and you are looking at something with a serial number on give him a call and ask him about it mine will call me back in 5 minutes with a answer as whether there is money owed or it's reported stolen or not.

 

[rsanter]

Typically if a car is going to get repoed, then there is paperwork that has to be filed.
Police can get involved to help regain that asset.
If the snap on guys really had the right to repo your tools then why don’t they just come over with the cops and the right paperwork and get it done.
I have only seen there they do it by pressure or harassment.

I agree that if it has a serial number on it then they have a leg to stand on, but for stuff that is not seralized.....good luck on that one. And if you tried to come take the stuff that rightfully belongs to me you will be leaving with the cops or in a box.

Now with that said, I cannot ever remember owing any tool truck guy more than $500, and I don’t ever remember buying anything that I could not pay off in just a couple of months.
I have been pressured so many times to buy the big toolbox, or buy that big set....bla bla bla. Not interested. Does not do me any good to make money if I have to hand it al over to someone else.
And I don’t care if the other three guys in the shop bought new toolboxes and it’s making my old one look bad, no I don’t need to play the keeping up with the jackasses game no matter how much the snap on guys like to push that angle.

This younger generation needs to learn about the relationship between work-earning-affording-budgeting. And not be so I want it now and I am entitled to it.

 

[yardiron]

.............................................................

Couple that with the fact that the average mechanic salary is 40-50k, with many places starting at hourly wages nearly identical to that of 20 years ago, and you get a recipe for a lot of debt.

............................. .

Its worst that that around here, wages at the best shops are generally lower than they were 20 years ago, when I walked away from the business it was 5 years after the last dealer I worked for went under. I left there at $24/hr.
I got the same at another dealer, but they soon closed up, with no other local options I went to a private shop for less money. It worked out in a way since I didn't have to drive as far to work and I set my own hours there.
When the recession hit, the shop owner said he needed everyone to take a pay cut, I said no and walked away. These days guys at the local dealers are all under $20/hr with no flat rate guarantee, they pay for their own benefits, they pay for their uniforms, and some pay union dues. I was talking one guy the other day, he worked with me at one dealer about 25 years ago, he's near retirement now and is making $15.50/hr as an A rate tech at a dealer, he's their transmission guy there. He was bragging to me that he's going to retire right about the time he pays off his last new tool box. He said he broke down and bought a new two bank Master Series box after some kid they hired in the shop ran into his box and destroyed it a couple of years ago. He said he was down to only $3100 worth of payments.

Dealers these days are hiring anyone they can get to work cheap that has some resemblance of a tool box. They're hiring parts changers not techs. Most of the guys these days only know how to read codes and take guesses, if that don't work, they call the 'tech line' and let them tell them what to change next.
Even back when I was still at the dealership, this was starting to be the norm. Part of its brought on by dealers not wanting to pay for a real tech, and part because the manufacturers don't enforce proper training.
Years ago we had manufacturer training, you went to their facility, and learned each new model hands on and got paid for your training time. Now they tell you if you want training, do it at home on your own time. I don't blame guys for not doing it. Think about how much tools cost, figure that most guys are forking over $200-300 per week to the tool man, then figure how many are making less than $15/hr with no hourly guarantee, which may well lead to a guy only getting a 30hr pay check. Then take out taxes, health insurance, uniform costs, and union dues. On top of that he's got to buy gas to get to work, eat and likely support a family.
Its no wonder they can't find techs these days. Most don't realize but they would make better money flipping burgers or picking up trash.

When I first started turning wrenches, they paid us 50/50, meaning we got half the labor rate. Flat rate times were more fair, cars were simpler, the dealer paid our benefits, they paid for our uniforms, and we required far less tools that cost far less. That's no longer the case, now they pay you a flat rate per operation regardless, guys need thousands of specialty tools that often cost as much as he will likely make in a year. Plus he's got to pay for benefits, uniforms, and train at his own expense on his own time.

It makes me cringe to even take my truck back to a dealer for a recall these days, there's no telling who they may have hired to work on it.

 

[ttpete]

Its worst that that around here, wages at the best shops are generally lower than they were 20 years ago, when I walked away from the business it was 5 years after the last dealer I worked for went under. I left there at $24/hr.
I got the same at another dealer, but they soon closed up, with no other local options I went to a private shop for less money. It worked out in a way since I didn't have to drive as far to work and I set my own hours there.
When the recession hit, the shop owner said he needed everyone to take a pay cut, I said no and walked away. These days guys at the local dealers are all under $20/hr with no flat rate guarantee, they pay for their own benefits, they pay for their uniforms, and some pay union dues. I was talking one guy the other day, he worked with me at one dealer about 25 years ago, he's near retirement now and is making $15.50/hr as an A rate tech at a dealer, he's their transmission guy there. He was bragging to me that he's going to retire right about the time he pays off his last new tool box. He said he broke down and bought a new two bank Master Series box after some kid they hired in the shop ran into his box and destroyed it a couple of years ago. He said he was down to only $3100 worth of payments.

Dealers these days are hiring anyone they can get to work cheap that has some resemblance of a tool box. They're hiring parts changers not techs. Most of the guys these days only know how to read codes and take guesses, if that don't work, they call the 'tech line' and let them tell them what to change next.
Even back when I was still at the dealership, this was starting to be the norm. Part of its brought on by dealers not wanting to pay for a real tech, and part because the manufacturers don't enforce proper training.
Years ago we had manufacturer training, you went to their facility, and learned each new model hands on and got paid for your training time. Now they tell you if you want training, do it at home on your own time. I don't blame guys for not doing it. Think about how much tools cost, figure that most guys are forking over $200-300 per week to the tool man, then figure how many are making less than $15/hr with no hourly guarantee, which may well lead to a guy only getting a 30hr pay check. Then take out taxes, health insurance, uniform costs, and union dues. On top of that he's got to buy gas to get to work, eat and likely support a family.
Its no wonder they can't find techs these days. Most don't realize but they would make better money flipping burgers or picking up trash.

When I first started turning wrenches, they paid us 50/50, meaning we got half the labor rate. Flat rate times were more fair, cars were simpler, the dealer paid our benefits, they paid for our uniforms, and we required far less tools that cost far less. That's no longer the case, now they pay you a flat rate per operation regardless, guys need thousands of specialty tools that often cost as much as he will likely make in a year. Plus he's got to pay for benefits, uniforms, and train at his own expense on his own time.

It makes me cringe to even take my truck back to a dealer for a recall these days, there's no telling who they may have hired to work on it.

I remember working 50/50 back in the 1960s. I had a $110/week guarantee. The labor rate was $6/hour. But back then, you could fill a shopping cart to overflowing for about $35. Then, I got a salaried job at the Ford Engineering Center building test engines that paid $530/month with free Blue Cross and paid vacations. I worked 8 hours/day 40 hours/week. I retired with 35 years' service and a nice buyout.

 

[yardiron]

Around here, 50/50 pay was gone by around the mid 1980's. By the 90's, most shops only guaranteed 35hr pay, and by the mid 90's the guarantee was gone but the hourly rate was up to $23.50 for an A rate tech. By 2002, all the better paying dealers had closed, those remaining were only paying $15 to $18/hr with no guarantee and no benefits. A top guy was lucky to take home over $300/week after deductions. These days that hasn't changed much. Guys are still making the same money they made 20 years ago, or less if they haven't 'advanced' any as a tech, plus they have to pay for everything out of pocket. The majority of the local dealers are in the $10 to $15/hr range now. A few dealers also now treat techs as sub-contractors and charge them a weekly 'rent' on the lift and bay they use. This got rid of the unions and made each tech a sole proprietor. (This also complicates things at tax time). A few even stopped deducting taxes, leaving it up to the tech to do that on his own as a sub contractor/sole proprietor. Its just another way to get back some of what they pay them. On top of that they have to pay their own insurance on their tools. The dealer does nothing other than to 'let' them work there and make them money.

At the way things have been going, they may just get back to that $6/hour rate.

I can't imagine this all has done much for the tool business either, with wages down, techs with any sort of money few and far between, its no wonder they're so hard to find these days. Any tech making only $12-$15/hr who goes out and signs his name to a $24,000 tool box and even as many tools seriously needs to step back and think about his career choice these days. A two bank 31" deep box that was $4k in 1986 would now cost over $17K brand new.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

4k in 1986 about 9400 today, the money just isn't worth anything anymore. A double bay KRL is basically that, and epiq is closer to $13k. List prices, I wasn't born in '86 so I can't comment if that was street/list for a 4k double bay. Would those have had friction slides? Or were those they years it was optional?



Tool cost and requirements absolutely can lock techs out of certain jobs. It also changes how shops/techs work. Why buy tools to change control arm bushings, just sell the whole arm? IMO most aftermarket arms are junk, so I prefer the former. But most local places I see don't even consider bushing replacement an option. No one skilled enough to do it and no tools to do so. Even the local dealers are starving for talent. The old timers are drying up, and young people generally won't work in the conditions the trade expects for the pay offered. One can certainly make a good living in this field, but it's not all sunshine and smiles.



Sadly I'm not surprised hearing about "rent" paid on bays, or the similar. The industry will continue to get worse before it improves. Few want to fix anything. People just want to drive things into the ground and get another payment, management wants "Stats" and sales numbers, techs want to get their flag hours or ticket dollars. Diagnostics will finally break the industry IMO. When the average "mechanic" can't trouble shoot a basic headlight circuit on a 20yo car without guessing at parts, how do we expect them to deal with the new garbage? I used my Pico today, and charged diagnostic time, for a car that got run so low on oil that the VVT stuck, pulling it out of time (intake cam stuck 40 degrees off). The fix? 3/4 of the oil capacity being filled, clearing the codes. Difference is I can say with confidence the timing is still on after the VVT had some oil to get moving again. Nobody does that kind of testing in my area. Fill it up, clear the codes, tell them it's getting an engine soon. That's after 3 shops couldn't figure it out.

 

[Wrench97]

Its worst that that around here, wages at the best shops are generally lower than they were 20 years ago, when I walked away from the business it was 5 years after the last dealer I worked for went under. I left there at $24/hr.
I got the same at another dealer, but they soon closed up, with no other local options I went to a private shop for less money. It worked out in a way since I didn't have to drive as far to work and I set my own hours there.
When the recession hit, the shop owner said he needed everyone to take a pay cut, I said no and walked away. These days guys at the local dealers are all under $20/hr with no flat rate guarantee, they pay for their own benefits, they pay for their uniforms, and some pay union dues. I was talking one guy the other day, he worked with me at one dealer about 25 years ago, he's near retirement now and is making $15.50/hr as an A rate tech at a dealer, he's their transmission guy there. He was bragging to me that he's going to retire right about the time he pays off his last new tool box. He said he broke down and bought a new two bank Master Series box after some kid they hired in the shop ran into his box and destroyed it a couple of years ago. He said he was down to only $3100 worth of payments.

Dealers these days are hiring anyone they can get to work cheap that has some resemblance of a tool box. They're hiring parts changers not techs. Most of the guys these days only know how to read codes and take guesses, if that don't work, they call the 'tech line' and let them tell them what to change next.
Even back when I was still at the dealership, this was starting to be the norm. Part of its brought on by dealers not wanting to pay for a real tech, and part because the manufacturers don't enforce proper training.
Years ago we had manufacturer training, you went to their facility, and learned each new model hands on and got paid for your training time. Now they tell you if you want training, do it at home on your own time. I don't blame guys for not doing it. Think about how much tools cost, figure that most guys are forking over $200-300 per week to the tool man, then figure how many are making less than $15/hr with no hourly guarantee, which may well lead to a guy only getting a 30hr pay check. Then take out taxes, health insurance, uniform costs, and union dues. On top of that he's got to buy gas to get to work, eat and likely support a family.
Its no wonder they can't find techs these days. Most don't realize but they would make better money flipping burgers or picking up trash.

When I first started turning wrenches, they paid us 50/50, meaning we got half the labor rate. Flat rate times were more fair, cars were simpler, the dealer paid our benefits, they paid for our uniforms, and we required far less tools that cost far less. That's no longer the case, now they pay you a flat rate per operation regardless, guys need thousands of specialty tools that often cost as much as he will likely make in a year. Plus he's got to pay for benefits, uniforms, and train at his own expense on his own time.

It makes me cringe to even take my truck back to a dealer for a recall these days, there's no telling who they may have hired to work on it.

What part of Jersey is that, the 1970s part? It's not that bad in south Jersey(except maybe the Vineland/Millville depressed area) nor across the river here in SE Pa.

 

[jimindm]

A lot of truth in this thread.

I would question the employers essentially renting a stall, and the tech being a sub contractor. You are an employee or a contractor, not both. Each one has its own rules.

As a sub contractor, you must be able to choose hours worked. If some one is telling and expecting you to work certain hours. You are an employee.

Knowing this is the internet, I doubt there is any first hand knowledge of this happening.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

A lot of truth in this thread.

I would question the employers essentially renting a stall, and the tech being a sub contractor. You are an employee or a contractor, not both. Each one has its own rules.

As a sub contractor, you must be able to choose hours worked. If some one is telling and expecting you to work certain hours. You are an employee.

Knowing this is the internet, I doubt there is any first hand knowledge of this happening.

Businesses usually muddy the lines in their favor as best they can. Obviously it's all second hand internet lore, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least to hear a shop charging "rent" on a bay. Hair salons charge for a chair, same idea. Same idea as being a "commission" or "flat rate" mechanic, but you work a schedule of 50+ hours non-negotiable.



Where I work - Gloves, grease, wiring supplies, aerosol products, electrical tape, scan tools, lab scopes, it's all on me. My first employer didn't even stock zip ties, RTV, crush washers, or hose clamps. No PB Blaster or brake-clean either - buy it yourself. Doing a radiator? If you change the clamps, they're coming out of your pocket. Doing an oil change? Replacing the crush washer comes out of your pocket. Packing wheel bearings? The shop might have a nasty oil pail of contaminated dusty grease. I buy all my own for any application required; I'm not eating a comeback because they ****** shop grease was 40 years old.

The current shop scan tool where I work is an OTC, which is updated to 2004 and has a damaged OBDII connector. I supply all the scanners/scopes and update them. On the flip side, I hold all the cards then, and get 100% of that work. Not that anyone else could do it anyways.



I'm waiting for the day the shops ask me to chip in on the customers bill.

 

[Skin]

Wow. I've heard of 1 for 1 on shop supplies where guys would be "issued" 1 pack of gloves, rags, or a can of brake clean per week or job but that's a first hearing that you have to pay for it all yourself. If they're still billing customers a shop supplies fee and aren't funneling that directly into your paycheck I think i'd be sorely tempted to contact some media outlets since that's effectively 2 way theft.

No surprise on community scan tools, or really tools in general, being busted or neglected to hell. Even when they're not broken there usually isnt enough of that scanner or special tool to go around so its either eat the time or buy your own.

 

[yardiron]

The problem I always ran into was missing 'shop' tools. You would go to the tool room for some special tool and its either locked in someone's box who wasn't working the same schedule or it was outright stolen and long gone. The same went for shop manuals. One dealer I worked for realized that tools could be shipped back for parts credit, so the tools that were shipped to the dealer never even made it to the tool room.

Most shops would supply things like grease, being I generally worked at dealerships, the grease was always OEM. Chemicals were hit or miss, they would supply only what the OEM offered. Gloves were on you, zip ties were something you just grabbed out of the parts department. Most shops in thse days just billed a generic $15 charge for misc. shop supplies on every ticket other than basic oil changes.
With some brands, the scan tools were completely proprietary and the software for many systems simply wasn't available to the aftermarket. There was no choice but to use the OEM scan tool or diag. equipment. At one dealer I worked at I had my own scan tool for all three brands, they were issued to us by the OEM and engine manufacturers. Engine manufacturers often mandated who could work on and which repairs were authorized or not, not the dealership.

I quit two dealers in my day over them wanting to 'rent' the space we worked in. One dealer tried to charge us a flat rate for the use of the lift bay, and another tried to charge techs a percentage of their hours (they wanted to deduct 10% of the labor time off every bill to cover use of the lift, lights, and shop supplies). They also started to charge techs for use of the brake lathes and alignment racks. The first time any dealer did that I backed my truck in and loaded my stuff up and just left.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Wow. I've heard of 1 for 1 on shop supplies where guys would be "issued" 1 pack of gloves, rags, or a can of brake clean per week or job but that's a first hearing that you have to pay for it all yourself. If they're still billing customers a shop supplies fee and aren't funneling that directly into your paycheck I think i'd be sorely tempted to contact some media outlets since that's effectively 2 way theft.

No surprise on community scan tools, or really tools in general, being busted or neglected to hell. Even when they're not broken there usually isnt enough of that scanner or special tool to go around so its either eat the time or buy your own.

Yeah, unless you have a mcjob or are some big shot whose gonna get a new job easily off the press, that's how you get blacklisted. We've had frantic managers and the owners of shops calling telling us not to hire someone so because they turn them in for something blatantly illegal or unethical. I worked at a place where company policy was dump the oil filters in the dumpster. This was during the Obama Administration, not some 60 year ago place. Didn't drain them or bag them. The original policy was to double-bag them like a homeowners supposed to do when they do a single oil change on their personal vehicle, but bags were deemed too expensive as time went on. Most of them just exploded anyway since they were filled with 80 filters being tossed over the side of the dumpster.


I'm a full believer in the tragedy of the commons. I dont loan tools, I either get you unstuck, or I do the whole thing because it's become a nightmare. Shop stuff gets destroyed because nobody cares. It's funny watching the covid19 scare hype these businesses into buying the PPE they should be supplying anyways. My employer is still buying single cases from local sources, 6 boxes at a time. I'm low on my, and now using theirs as harbor freight is backordered since they donated all of their inventory. Nobody has even price checked bulk shipping a couple hundred boxes. Medical supply companies if you're willing to buy more than 50 boxes at a time can drop your price competitive with Harbor Freight. They're actively spending extra money trying to not buy too many gloves, because when this goes back to normal it's down to one box again for the entire shop for a month. It drives me nuts because I feel like these supposed businessman don't have a clue about what their costs actually are. These are the same people that would rather buy drain plugs for $5 a piece from Napa then an assortment of a hundred for 50 bucks.

 

[M635_Guy]

Yeah, unless you have a mcjob or are some big shot whose gonna get a new job easily off the press, that's how you get blacklisted. We've had frantic managers and the owners of shops calling telling us not to hire someone so because they turn them in for something blatantly illegal or unethical. I worked at a place where company policy was dump the oil filters in the dumpster. This was during the Obama Administration, not some 60 year ago place. Didn't drain them or bag them. The original policy was to double-bag them like a homeowners supposed to do when they do a single oil change on their personal vehicle, but bags were deemed too expensive as time went on. Most of them just exploded anyway since they were filled with 80 filters being tossed over the side of the dumpster.


I'm a full believer in the tragedy of the commons. I dont loan tools, I either get you unstuck, or I do the whole thing because it's become a nightmare. Shop stuff gets destroyed because nobody cares. It's funny watching the covid19 scare hype these businesses into buying the PPE they should be supplying anyways. My employer is still buying single cases from local sources, 6 boxes at a time. I'm low on my, and now using theirs as harbor freight is backordered since they donated all of their inventory. Nobody has even price checked bulk shipping a couple hundred boxes. Medical supply companies if you're willing to buy more than 50 boxes at a time can drop your price competitive with Harbor Freight. They're actively spending extra money trying to not buy too many gloves, because when this goes back to normal it's down to one box again for the entire shop for a month. It drives me nuts because I feel like these supposed businessman don't have a clue about what their costs actually are. These are the same people that would rather buy drain plugs for $5 a piece from Napa then an assortment of a hundred for 50 bucks.

It doesn't surprise me much that people don't give a **** about the shop equipment/etc. if their shop isn't taking care of them and is essentially scraping off the top of their own guys. I've been with the same shop for over 20 years because I know they're scrupulously honest, are super-fair with their shop rates and I know they're good with their guys. On the other hand, my buddy who is a master tech and was the shop lead for a premium German brand went from having an awesome, highly productive, highly efficient, high customer-sat shop to "I'm getting the f@(& out of here" when corporate started drastically changing how they made money (was a 40% pay cut for him just to start) and began nickle-and-diming the crew. All their best techs (starting with him) left within a few months. He's still in touch with a couple guys who work there and it's a dumpster fire.

I do not understand running something that way. Stay right with your guys and mostly they'll stay right with you. Hell, another guy I know who wrenches told me a story a long time ago about the guys in the shop having a "chat" with a new guy who was playing loose with the cars and with shop equipment, etc. He was better for a while, started doing it again and the guys essentially chased him out of the shop. They defended their employer.

Maybe I'm naive, but if I had a shop that's what I'd want - a good bunch of guys doing good work in a good place and everyone making good money.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

That's how I see it. The more profitable and efficient the shop is, the more they can pay me.

I want good shop equipment so i can make money with it. Try doing evap work without a smoke machine. I just want to fix stuff. Where I'm at now seems generally acceptable, always more they could do. Programming will be the next big hurdle. No tech is going to pay subscription costs and reflash equipment and collect 20 bucks of a flat rate diag charge. Shops are going to have to step up. I lost 2 cars this week due to reflashing requirements. Either that or mobile diag and flashing is going to get huge.

 

[Coach James]

Businesses usually muddy the lines in their favor as best they can. Obviously it's all second hand internet lore, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least to hear a shop charging "rent" on a bay. Hair salons charge for a chair, same idea. Same idea as being a "commission" or "flat rate" mechanic, but you work a schedule of 50+ hours non-negotiable.

Hair salons do that, but the hair cutters set their own hours. The ones where the boss sets hours, pay their cutters hourly. Any shop doing that with techs is breaking the law and the IRS would nail them for it. Still, some place might do it anyway hoping to get away with it.


Coach

 

[Tallpilot]

That's how I see it. The more profitable and efficient the shop is, the more they can pay me.

I want good shop equipment so i can make money with it. Try doing evap work without a smoke machine. I just want to fix stuff. Where I'm at now seems generally acceptable, always more they could do. Programming will be the next big hurdle. No tech is going to pay subscription costs and reflash equipment and collect 20 bucks of a flat rate diag charge. Shops are going to have to step up. I lost 2 cars this week due to reflashing requirements. Either that or mobile diag and flashing is going to get huge.

It seems like Autologic/DrewTech/Opus has this figured out. Reflashing equipment/subscriptions are pretty cost prohibitive for the average shop (bad ROI, especially if they work on all makes) and a crappy deal for a flat rate tech to babysit a laptop for 30 minutes (even worse if it bricks a module - who pays?). Rent the machine for $90/month, tech hooks it up to the car and moves on to another job, Opus handles the flash remotely for a flat fee.

You can add $125 to a customer's bill as a line item and still beat dealer pricing and inconvenience. Like everything else, this requires educating customers on what needs to be done and building trust. Things any independent shop should be highly focused on if they want anything besides brake/suspension work.

http://www.drewtech.com/RAP/capabilities.html

 

[Tica]

As far as any interests Snap On retained in the tools - it would depend on the financing agreement and if they had filed a UCC financing lien at the time of sale.

Technically - unlike a vehicle with a VIN or equipment with a serial # - it could be problematic to positively identity any hand tools sold under a financing agreement. Perhaps they do have a unique numbering system - I am not a Snap On user. If he defaulted, the financing agent (maybe a web bank) would try to recover from him. If the tools were disposed of or sold - the seller could be investigated for defrauding a secured creditor. I doubt if anything could be done to a buyer of tools without an identification #. That said - I doubt it would be pursued. I don't know if Snap On carries its own accounts or uses a third party.