Horrific new slab pour, PROPER corrective action advise needed!

[Bretny]

OP, Looks like someone snapped a photo of your concrete finishers in action...

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1029309&d=1594138464

Lol....

 

[41plym]

In my humble opinion, for me replacement is the only fix.Even if I had to pay for it.

 

[farmall400]

In my humble opinion, for me replacement is the only fix.Even if I had to pay for it.

Same here. There is no way I could live with that.

 

[readhead]

I will agree with you Dave, in principal, however until the condition of the existing concrete can be established we are all speculating. I have erected two metal buildings over corrected foundations. It was a lot of work and in both cases the parties involved agreed that it would have been easier and less expensive to demo the first foundation while it was green and start over.

One of the buildings has been fine for twelve years but the other one started showing cracks and delamination within a couple of years. Now I am talking to the owner about jacking up the building so a new foundation can be installed. All kinds of issues can be in play here. Maybe the second building had poor soil prep. Who knows. But now the owner is paying big money to repair the repaired building.

 

[JP Chestnut]

****** job. No need to call the lawyer as the first horse out of the chute. Depends on what the contractors reaction to this is.

The reason why you consult an attorney first is to make sure you don’t unwittingly screw yourself over when corresponding with the contractor. For instance calling the guy to tell him the work is bad, rather than sending a certified letter using appropriate contractual language.

 

[zimmpz]

Simple question for the OP since it keeps getting mentioned, are you planning on installing a lift ?

Yes but it will be a smaller scissor lift and not a 2 post or something where the anchoring is more critical.

 

[see pictures]

Who did the concrete the same crew that is framing the shop? Why 5500 psi concrete?

 

[ptschram]

I wouldn't even consider retaining an attorney for this.

The contractor likely has little insurance and fewer assets.

It will cost you THOUSANDS and THOU$AND$.

What should have been a simple easement argument elapsed over nearly five years, cost $100K and ended up in Federal Court.

I am really sorry this happened, but the Court will likely not be any better of an experience for you.

 

[Lassen Forge]

You were expecting a Mustang (rightfully so), but they delivered a Pinto.

More like a Yugo... or a Trabant.

Anyway, keep us posted how it goes, I'm glad they're (at least for now) working with you... One thing I didn't think about originally (other than your base turning into gravel in a few years) was the finished elevation of your floor IF they cap it... it's going to put you 3-6" taller at the slab, meaning you'll need to re-engineer your driveway, your shop access, all of that...

Also something to consider - as (not if) the bottom slab disintegrates and comes apart you'll have a soft footing under whatever overlay they plan on doing... I can see 6 inches of mush under your new slab will give you nothing but problems with settling, cracking, etc... then you have a foot of mess to deal with, probably under your new building... (We dealt with this one time on a one-car garage , it was a freaking nightmare...)

Hopefully they'll bust it out, haul it off, and make it right. I'd kind of settle for nothing less... Good luck!

 

[zimmpz]

This isn't jabbing at anyone, or putting you all down, I'm trying to get a genuine understanding of what you are thinking.

Why, if the final product would look, act, and perform like the originally spec'd concrete floor, would you absolutely not want it? Enough that you would shell out $15,000+ more to not have it? Is this a ritually unclean situation, once you have seen it, you won't take it no matter if it's corrected? Is this like new house buyers seeing the house during construction, and refusing to buy because they saw dings in the wall and dirt in the tubs and now they won't buy it but will buy one just like it, with the same construction process, that they didn't see during construction?

If a properly constructed, new surface is placed over that rough base, and finished to original specifications, why would it be unacceptable? Other than it is "ritually unclean" due to the process it took to get to that final surface? A topped slab, done correctly, will be stronger than the originally spec'd floor, will have the same smoothness and flatness and finish, will have even more thickness for concrete anchorage, and will be a few more inches above grade, which isn't a bad thing because the dirt was too close to the finish floor on one side anyway on this slab.

The only detriment that I can see to a thicker, topped slab is there's more thermal mass, so there will be a slightly greater lag in the heat response. But, that will be balanced out with a longer cool-down, which is in itself a benefit.

Yes, in an ideal world, the slab would be done right the first time. But, now, dealing with the reality of what is there, not what should be, does it have to be removed and replaced? Couldn't it just be corrected to the same performing or even better final product?

Thanks for all the insight Dave. I am working with an engineer and the current plan is to surface grind, shallow pin, lay down a bonding agent and grid #4 bar set mid depth in a 5 inch 5500 fiber slab on top of the existing "slab" as long as the current one doesnt show any honecombing and passes the sounding test and the leftover concrete passes a test at the local university lab. I understand this is probably overkill but I've always been a believer in the overkill is underrated mantra which in this nightmare will help me sleep at night. I looked into the legal route and it was ugly and months out which means a build next year as I live in Northern MN and winter is always right around the corner.

I hear a lot of tear out votes and they are not just online. I have yet to hear a reason why topping the slab is a worse idea considering the long, nasty and time consuming road with no certain outcome other than this shouldn't have happened and its all on the contractor argument. Which I understand and wish was a quick fix but my thinking this deep into this garbage scenario is I'd rather be screwed by a monkey rather than a gorilla as the Swedish bikini model I thought I would end up with turned out to be a fat Russian troll on life support. Its not ideal or what I want but a rational compromise seems like the best route unless I hear a valid rebuttal with reasons why its a bad idea and not just an opinion. I'm still very open to ideas but with a crew of engineers in my back pocket who seem to think I wont have any problems in my lifetime with this route and I get to stay out of court and get a shop this year its hard to say no unless you all think I'm walking deeper into a trap. Thanks again for all the support!

 

[larry_g]

Thanks for all the insight Dave. I am working with an engineer and the current plan is to surface grind, shallow pin, lay down a bonding agent and grid #4 bar set mid depth in a 5 inch 5500 fiber slab on top of the existing "slab" as long as the current one doesnt show any honecombing and passes the sounding test

If you go with this I would suggest that you pressurize the heat tubing before the process starts to confirm that it has no leaks. Then keep it pressurized during the process so that if the system is compromised then it can be dealt with before it is covered by a second layer of concrete.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Vintage Veloce]

If the topping solution works for you, that's cool. But be sure to review the actual difference in cost compared to removal and replacement. And to discuss the risks of the new topping project with the engineer.
And of course you want to be very confident the new top is done right and not just another layer of problems.
I'd really suggest being on site, maybe with your engineer for the second pour.

 

[TommyK]

I am not an expert on concrete like ssdave or LLWillysfan but I have been involved to one degree or another with the construction of several warehouse slabs over the years (like 50,000 + sf). In my limited experience, the engineers don't specify high compressive strength concrete to increase durability. They use shake on hardeners for that. I still have not heard a good reason why 5500 psi was spec'd. Pouring a 5500 psi topping slab sounds like history about to repeat itself. For any typical shop use 4000-4500 psi is the norm. We poured 4400 psi concrete when we built our shop and after 20 years of running every variety of track machine in and out of there it has held up pretty well.

 

[gnpenning]

OP I like how you are going about this. Ssdave has given some great insight. If the current slab tests out you won't find a better base material. Not sure why the 5500 but you can do whatever you want. I was looking at a job yesterday the guy is pouring a 8" slab for a 24×24 shop with nothing heavier than a pickup going on it, no hoist either. His money his decision. Won't change anything for me and He can sleep at night.

Keep the contractor working FOR what is best for you. You both will be happier in the end.

A base will make or break a great finish. Get the best base you can.

 

[ConCretin]

T I am working with an engineer and the current plan is to surface grind, shallow pin, lay down a bonding agent and grid #4 bar set mid depth in a 5 inch 5500 fiber slab on top of the existing "slab" as long as the current one doesnt show any honecombing and passes the sounding test and the leftover concrete passes a test at the local university lab. I understand this is probably overkill but I've always been a believer in the overkill is underrated mantra which in this nightmare will help me sleep at night.

To be frank, overkill is what got you into this mess. There is absolutely no need to use 5500 psi concrete on a garage slab.....none. A slab on grade is not a structural member. It depends on the base under it for support. From a structural standpoint, 2000 psi concrete would probably be fine. 3000 psi is standard. I recommend 4000 only because the added cement makes for a more durable surface. 5500 is not only overkill, it's likely to result in similar problems on the overlay if the temps are in the 90's again. We wouldn't even attempt it.

I don't know who is advising you and maybe it doesn't matter if it's on your contractor's dime but I don't know what "honeycombing", "a sounding test" and "leftover concrete passes a test at the local university lab" has to to do with anything. If you are placing a new 5" slab, what difference does it make about the concrete slab underneath? It's obviously stronger than soil.

It your contractor is paying, carry on but it this plan is on your dime, I'd tap the brakes. The basic plan is fine but overkill is costly and unnecessary if your are paying the bill. Why surface grind a roughly finished slab? What is fiber and rebar going to accomplish? If i was paying, I wouldn't even bother with a bonding agent or shallow pins, whatever that is.

To me the biggest challenge is dealing with your existing floor drains. If you can figure that out, I'd throw up an edge form, lay some wire and place a good ole 4", 4000 psi slab and continue with the rest of the build. All that is required is good construction practices such as limiting mix water, controlling cracks and curing. Simple stuff.

 

[Balvar24]

If you go with this I would suggest that you pressurize the heat tubing before the process starts to confirm that it has no leaks. Then keep it pressurized during the process so that if the system is compromised then it can be dealt with before it is covered by a second layer of concrete.

lg
no neat sig line

I'd pressure test it now, if you haven't already.

 

[stillnostrebor]

To be frank, overkill is what got you into this mess. There is absolutely no need to use 5500 psi concrete on a garage slab.....none. A slab on grade is not a structural member. It depends on the base under it for support. From a structural standpoint, 2000 psi concrete would probably be fine. 3000 psi is standard. I recommend 4000 only because the added cement makes for a more durable surface. 5500 is not only overkill, it's likely to result in similar problems on the overlay if the temps are in the 90's again. We wouldn't even attempt it.

I don't know who is advising you and maybe it doesn't matter if it's on your contractor's dime but I don't know what "honeycombing", "a sounding test" and "leftover concrete passes a test at the local university lab" has to to do with anything. If you are placing a new 5" slab, what difference does it make about the concrete slab underneath? It's obviously stronger than soil.

It your contractor is paying, carry on but it this plan is on your dime, I'd tap the brakes. The basic plan is fine but overkill is costly and unnecessary if your are paying the bill. Why surface grind a roughly finished slab? What is fiber and rebar going to accomplish? If i was paying, I wouldn't even bother with a bonding agent or shallow pins, whatever that is.

To me the biggest challenge is dealing with your existing floor drains. If you can figure that out, I'd throw up an edge form, lay some wire and place a good ole 4", 4000 psi slab and continue with the rest of the build. All that is required is good construction practices such as limiting mix water, controlling cracks and curing. Simple stuff.

Sage advice.

Here in the prestressed plant we do large structural spanning members day in, day out that are engineered for 5000 psi at 28 days. We rarely design to 6kips at 28 days, and when we do it is something that is doing a lot more than a floor slab on grade.

My shop floor is a 4000 psi riversand mix, and we used admixtures to keep the WC ratio down, but still make it easy-ish to place. I do all kinds of heavy work on it and it looks as good as the day it was placed. My concrete contractor thought I was overkilling it, but I work in a precast plant and do mix designs for a living, so he gave me a pass.

Don't overthink it.

 

[crf731]

Working construction for,the last 30+ years, I’ve learned that everyone fks up now and again. Last week was your contractors turn at it in a bad way. What’s important is, how they deal with the fk up to make it right.

Throwing a fit and calling your lawyer isn’t going to get your garage done anytime soon and will just drag the process out filling the lawyers pocket with money that could have been spent on better things.

If you poor over the existing mess I’d be concerned about the joint between the two slabs and how, it would react to the heating of the bottom one. I’d really be concerned about it cracking if it wasn’t thick enough. Lastly nothing says that you are going to get any better of an outcome than you did with the first go around.

If it were mine, I’d lean towards getting a core sample done and having it broken to see if you got what you asked for in terms of concrete. If it is good, I’d go with grinding it smooth, then coating it with some sort of sealer, stain or that paint on **** with the flakes in it to make it look pretty.

Good luck with it, and keep us updated on what the outcome is.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Looks like the company owes you a new slab, & pex etc.

X2. That's why you only hire bonded, insured contractors.

Tommy

 

[Hilltopmasonry]

X2. That's why you only hire bonded, insured contractors.

Tommy

The problem is that most people don’t understand how bonds work and unless The contractor specifically purchased a bond for that particular project then saying you have a bond is useless

A bond is basically an insurance policy that generally needs to be purchased for each project

Of course there are many, many different types of bonds

So saying that a contractor is bonded is kind of like saying That a person is insured.....are we talking health insured? Life insured? Car insured? Long term care insured? Simply saying that you are bonded is too vague and a purchased bond needs to be specific to the job

The proper bond is a performance bond

A performance bond, also known as a contract bond, is a surety bond issued by an insurance company or a bank to guarantee satisfactory completion of a project by a contractor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jnicol6600]

It's the plant's fault. However, your concrete contractor should be the one dealing with them, not you. You deal with the concrete guy and he deals with the plant. That's how it should work, anyways.

This is what I would say also.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

The problem is that most people don’t understand how bonds work and unless The contractor specifically purchased a bond for that particular project then saying you have a bond is useless

A bond is basically an insurance policy that generally needs to be purchased for each project

Of course there are many, many different types of bonds

So saying that a contractor is bonded is kind of like saying That a person is insured.....are we talking health insured? Life insured? Car insured? Long term care insured? Simply saying that you are bonded is too vague and a purchased bond needs to be specific to the job

The proper bond is a performance bond

A performance bond, also known as a contract bond, is a surety bond issued by an insurance company or a bank to guarantee satisfactory completion of a project by a contractor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for clarifying. A performance bond was exactly what I meant.

Tommy

 

[kelpaso1]

I don't understand the guys saying it can be fixed. This job is a whole ***********, The concrete plant screwed up, the contractor also for not refusing the loads knowing it was not right. If I paid 15G for a pad I would demand a remove and redo from a different concrete placing company. One of the worst jobs I've ever seen.

 

[Vintage Veloce]

The problem is the potential gap between "demand" and "get". In a perfect world, the solution would be to wave a wand, the old would go away, and the new would appear, perfect and at no cost to the owner.

Unfortunately, in the real world, the cost of tear out and replace is quite a bit of money to everybody involved, and may make it tough to bridge between what should happen and what does. We don't know the financial end of this at all.

Well said. It's not fair and not just, but sometimes you have to work things out.

A couple years back, I had a concrete pour I was very unhappy with. It ended up being serviceable, but it definitely wasn't what I specified or expected. Luckily I was present and stepped in and forced them to make some adjustments that prevented a complete disaster. In my case, the problem was all with the finishers, and I told the finishing foreman I was upset, and eventually he admitted I was justified in my disappointment. And he finally asked what I thought I should pay. He was a one man band who had hired a bunch of guys on his word, and I know if I paid him nothing (which was what he deserved) it would be a real problem for him. On the other hand I did NOT get what I was promised either. If I remember correctly, I decided to pay him half, and we parted both unhappy.
In the end, the concrete works, but I am unhappy with it every time I look at it.

The bottom line is that concrete is a thing that is VERY hard to fix after it goes wrong. And unless the contractor has very deep pockets, they will walk long before they tear out a pour after it has gone wrong.

Specify something that is possible (be sure that high PSI concrete is really necessary). Be there yourself and have someone present who really knows their stuff and can fix or stop things before they become unrecoverable.

To you it might be the garage of your dreams, but to the contractor, it's just another job.

 

[Dumber than lumber]

I sure wouldn’t want the guys that did that to be fixing it.

What he says. Times 2.

 

[PugetDude]

Guess I don't understand where the guys who are telling you to bend over, grab your ankles and take it- accept a totally f'd up slab, expect the same crew to do a better job on a half-*** pour over the top of it, and smile while you're reciting "Thank you sir, may I have another?"

This is more about the integrity of the contractor whose crew ruined this slab stepping up and taking care of his mistake than the customer accepting a compromise that may or may not perform over time as expected.

Also the OP needs to forget about 5500PSI concrete for the new (or overlaid) slab, IMO . It's not helping the situation.

YMMV

Again, Good luck with the rest of the build.

 

[ConCretin]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the OP accept defective work. The question is whether an acceptable repair can be achieved given the financial reality that he has paid the contractor and it's not known what that contractor is willing or able to do to fix it. If the contractor steps up and agrees to remove and replace the slab and all the radiant, insulation, etc. within it, well that's perfect.

But if the contractor is not bonded and after a long and costly legal battle doesn't have the assets to support a judgement, the OP is in worse shape than he started. We are all just discussing options. It's not as simple or quite frankly very helpful to suggest that the OP just demand a new slab and that will fix everything.

Btw, to those saying that it's the concrete suppliers fault, that has yet to be proven and is unlikely to be. A small inexperienced crew placing 5500 psi concrete at 11:00 am in 90 degree temps is a much more likely cause. Unless the batch tickets indicate a long delay d between batching and delivery, this isn't on the supplier.

With regard to performance bonds, My experience was that bonds were purchased on a project by project basis but have learned on here that some states require a contractor to obtain a blanket type of bond that covers all their work as a condition of their contractor's license. That apparently doesn't apply to this case.

 

[Bigblockyeti]

With regard to performance bonds, My experience was that bonds were purchased on a project by project basis but have learned on here that some states require a contractor to obtain a blanket type of bond that covers all their work as a condition of their contractor's license. That apparently doesn't apply to this case.

I had a similar situation where a contractor decided he had the job when I shook his hand and thanked him for his time then destroyed 200-300 trees when a couple dozen needed to be removed. This was going to be our home build and the guy is broke as a joke so the only option would have been to go after his state minimum $15K bond, which apparently is a blanket type for a GC. We still have time as it happened 10/18 but it probably isn't worth the headache. I can still transplant other trees from various parts of the property to reforest the landscape that he raped. I believe there's a three year statute of limitations for acting on that bond, I don't know if it's from when the work occurred or when he forfeited his licence in 10/19.

 

[Kevin54]

After tossing my cookies from seeing the slab, and slamming down a few shots of Jack....talk to your contractor, have him grind it level, then have him pay for having the complete slab tiled with the tile of your choice after the building is up. The depressions will be filled with a leveling agent. And you won't lose much thickness of the slab from grinding. Then after the garage is up, you'll have a nice tiled floor to be proud of. I'd hate to go through all of the trouble of ripping it out, new forms, new pex, drains, and so on. I thing it could be a win actually.

 

[Bobthetractor]

And, the cost of that bond is 3 to 5% of contract cost, and will be passed on and paid by the customer.

I've never paid more than 1.5% for a Payment and Performance bond. Job size matters as does the past history of the contractor

The problem is that most people don’t understand how bonds work and unless The contractor specifically purchased a bond for that particular project then saying you have a bond is useless

A bond is basically an insurance policy that generally needs to be purchased for each project

Of course there are many, many different types of bonds

So saying that a contractor is bonded is kind of like saying That a person is insured.....are we talking health insured? Life insured? Car insured? Long term care insured? Simply saying that you are bonded is too vague and a purchased bond needs to be specific to the job

The proper bond is a performance bond

A performance bond, also known as a contract bond, is a surety bond issued by an insurance company or a bank to guarantee satisfactory completion of a project by a contractor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As someone that has called bonds. Its a giant PITA and no one wins but it does serve as an incentive to fix mistakes. I prefer a Letter of Credit but ultimately its the same legal mess so you end up at the same point.

On the consumer side, your best stick is to check references and not pay until the job is complete assuming its a week or less. I will agree to pay for materials once they are delivered if they ask. Also, for the love of god just because a contractors truck says "licensed and insured" Doesn't mean they are. Usually if they put their license number on the side of the truck its valid but I've seen instances where a guy borrows someone else's so check the individual/company names. Ask for a copy of their ACORD but if you aren't named as an additional insured your coverage is likely nonexistent or limited. This gets state dependent but its easy to check.

 

[zimmpz]

More good input and constructive criticism! For those asking why 5500 I feel the need to explain myself and I now realize I know more about concrete now than I did before. I am not an expert on concrete which is why I hired someone. I work in the airline industry and after rolling around on beautiful old slabs that have been beat to hell by large aircraft and AGE equipment I asked a guy who worked at the facility what it would take to have that as my floor and he ran me through what he did to repair a concrete pad in the hanger and he laid 5500 and did some surface work but I don't know what it was. In my ignorance wanting the same slab I have beat the piss out of for 14 years I was unaware that working with it was playing with the devil. I figured the guy with all the references knew and he obviously was terribly inexperienced with this material. I guess my want of a little cool factor and feeling of familiarity was a bad idea especially combined with a bad contractor so I'll take the heat for that I guess.

I will not be perusing anything legal unless he doesn't do the honorable thing and make the repair approved by an engineer. That road isn't a guarantee to get me what I want and will cost me another year and continue to make my life hell throughout that time. Plus the risk of an actual financial setback in these times REALLY does not interest me.

2 engineers, the contractor, another concrete contractor and myself will be having a meeting of the minds at 130 tomorrow afternoon to set up the final plan. If the engineers feel comfortable moving forward with a repair and lay out a plan I can be a little happier with I will move forward.

I am not very familiar with tiled garage floors or other coatings so if anyone has any opinions on what to finish it with I'm all ears. It will be used as a personal shop with some decent sized equipment in it. Carbide skis on my sleds might be the biggest threat but I can just use good practice and dollies to roll them around. easy oil clean up will be a big selling point. appreciate your thoughts! I'll update after tomorrows meeting.

 

[B T C]

It's like 1:35. We need an update.

 

[jetranger]

It's like 1:35. We need an update.

LOL... exactly!

 

[zimmpz]

It's like 1:35. We need an update.

I didn't realize I had such loyal followers! We all met and the contractor tried to smooth things over while the engineer chiseled away at my dried out play-doh slab surface. The engineer said grind 2 inches off the top and then if it passes a compressive strength test we can lay a 5 inch reinforced slab on it and all sleep better at night. I'm praying the concrete underneath is good and the engineer seemed to be confident that it would be. They never lifted the pex off the bottom so a weird victory there in that they shouldn't grind through my tubes. I'm looking forward for the nightmare to end and to put all of this nonsense in the past pending the compressive testing goes well. Lots of lessons learned and egg on everyone's face but I still hold on to some optimism as does the engineer. I will continue to update after the grind, thanks again everyone and enjoy the weekend!

 

[Vintage Veloce]

I am not very familiar with tiled garage floors or other coatings so if anyone has any opinions on what to finish it with I'm all ears.

There are lots of guys here who know more about tiles than me... but it can work great IF you get the right tile and install it properly. For instance, most tile is very slippery compared to concrete... so you want to be careful about that. And if you want to be able to drop a hammer on it without it cracking, again, that involves careful choices. All I am saying is, don't just sling some tile in there: using tile in a working garage is a whole decision tree of it's own.

 

[rustyjames]

I didn't realize I had such loyal followers! We all met and the contractor tried to smooth things over while the engineer chiseled away at my dried out play-doh slab surface. The engineer said grind 2 inches off the top and then if it passes a compressive strength test we can lay a 5 inch reinforced slab on it and all sleep better at night. I'm praying the concrete underneath is good and the engineer seemed to be confident that it would be. They never lifted the pex off the bottom so a weird victory there in that they shouldn't grind through my tubes. I'm looking forward for the nightmare to end and to put all of this nonsense in the past pending the compressive testing goes well. Lots of lessons learned and egg on everyone's face but I still hold on to some optimism as does the engineer. I will continue to update after the grind, thanks again everyone and enjoy the weekend!

Grind off 2"? And then pouring 5" on top seems nuts. That's a lot of grinding and I can't see any purpose that'll serve. It would probably be cheaper to start over.

 

[The Cobbler]

Fingers crossed for you. !

 

[MOwens]

I imagine by grinding they mean using a planer much like what they use to grind down roadways and curbs before overlaying with asphalt. Not the grinders we use to polish and clean floors. It will leave a rough but level surface that has to be overlayed.

 

[nh_yota]

Sounds like there's enough f*** ups to go around with that abortion.

 

[rjacobs]

grind 2 inches off the top

In for video of this...