Tools of Japan

[Qualitytools]

In this case the ratchet has a separate spring and pawl for each direction, so I was able to swap out just one of the springs and compare it to the original by switching the direction switch.

I think durability is the main concern. Pretty sure that fitting weaker springs has a similar effect to adding years of wear/fatigue to the original springs.

Also, I think some/most people may prefer a more positive clicking sounding and feeling mechanism.

+ what mrspeed said.

Mr Lemons, First and foremost thank you for sharing your experiment. A couple points to bring up, a shorter spring may not be a softer spring due to the fact that it was cut. Second when you cut the conical spring did you cut from the larger end in order to maintain the proper collapse that you refer to in your post so that the coils collapse within each other rather than on top of each other?

 

[TuxThePenguin]

Mr Lemons, First and foremost thank you for sharing your experiment. A couple points to bring up, a shorter spring may not be a softer spring due to the fact that it was cut. Second when you cut the conical spring did you cut from the larger end in order to maintain the proper collapse that you refer to in your post so that the coils collapse within each other rather than on top of each other?

Unless it's a progressive spring and you cut off the softer portion of it, then cutting a spring isn't going to make it harder.

Which end you cut does not affect how the coils "stack" (or, rather, "don't stack") under pressure. You're either taking off the coils on the outside or the inside. Either way it doesn't have the effect that you mentioned.

That said, I agree with the overall tone of your post (at least what I am getting from it) that opening a ratchet and cutting springs is just crazy. I certainly would never be willing to give that a try, not even on the cheapest of the cheap ratchets. (I say this because I don't expect I'd be able to correct any design flaws in doing so.)

 

[mr.lemons]

Qualitytools - I may have miscommunicated and agree that cutting the spring does not affect the spring rate. The new spring was softer/weaker than the original straight out of the box before it was cut. I wanted to try both shorter and weaker springs.

TuxThePenguin - If it's possible to take something apart then I think we are obliged to do so, even if it ends in regret.

 

[toddmorr]

... opening a ratchet and cutting springs is just crazy. I would certainly never be willing to give that a try, not even on the cheapest of the cheap ratchets.

exactly why is it crazy? might have a downside depending on a specific situation, but so far it's all upside for me.

kinda like why we put headers on cars, aftermarket ignition systems, any number of things.....to tinker and improve.

 

[mrspeed]

TuxThePenguin - If it's possible to take something apart then I think we are obliged to do so, even if it ends in regret.

Yeah, taking apart my tools helps to justify having the tools I used to take apart the other tools.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

 

[TuxThePenguin]

exactly why is it crazy? might have a downside depending on a specific situation, but so far it's all upside for me.

kinda like why we put headers on cars, aftermarket ignition systems, any number of things.....to tinker and improve.

Crazy to think that we'd be able to simply improve the performance of the tool with such a simple modification, as if the manufacturer just threw any old spring in there and called it good...

Is there really any application where cutting a spring has ever improved a product?

Is it really worth busting a knuckle with a ratchet because you cut the spring in some strange attempt to try to improve the ratchet? If so, feel free, but... I'd rather not cause that situation to myself.

Yeah, taking apart my tools helps to justify having the tools I used to take apart the other tools.

That statement is gold. I love it.

 

[Samuel D]

A difficulty with ratchets is that one slip is generally fatal for the mechanism (and there’s the risk of injury to the operator). So it’s exceedingly important that the spring cause good engagement every single time.

Modifying the spring is not likely to improve on the designer’s balance of conflicting performance metrics (e.g. 100% reliable engagement over a reasonable lifespan versus low back-drag so that the ratchet serves its purpose in the first place) in any decent ratchet. I guess it’s possible that a really cheap ratchet would not be properly designed, but are you really likely to improve it by guesswork?

 

[mr.lemons]

Yeah, taking apart my tools helps to justify having the tools I used to take apart the other tools.

 

[toddmorr]

Crazy to think that we'd be able to simply improve the performance of the tool with such a simple modification, as if the manufacturer just threw any old spring in there and called it good...

obviously manufacturers don't throw any old spring in there, the engineer selects a spring based on *his* design priorities. His priorities and desired outcome differ from mine. So I altered the ratchet to match my preference. Totally logical, based on my priorities.

based on your logic we don't add lube to a dry ratchet new from the factory?

 

[toddmorr]

I guess it’s possible that a really cheap ratchet would not be properly designed, but are you really likely to improve it by guesswork?

improve is a relative term. If the priority is lower back drag at the possible expense of a shorter life span, then for me, yes that's an improvement.

Personally i'm not worried about wearing out a ratchet.

 

[rice rocket]

Any T-handle (sliding or not) or P-handle hex and torx tools from Japan worth checking out? I have a little bit of everything, Betas, PB Swiss, Wera, Bondhus, Daxkey, I like trying new stuff though.

I see Franks has the Kokens, that are welded and not sliding.

 

[Avenging Bankroll]

nothing

 

[Skin]

Any T-handle (sliding or not) or P-handle hex and torx tools from Japan worth checking out? I have a little bit of everything, Betas, PB Swiss, Wera, Bondhus, Daxkey, I like trying new stuff though.

I see Franks has the Kokens, that are welded and not sliding.

Its not specific to bit sockets but Koken does have one for wheels lugs but its 1/2" and can be adapted to any socket size. They also just released a Zeal version, 4711XZ.

 

[48548]

Its not specific to bit sockets but Koken does have one for wheels lugs but its 1/2" and can be adapted to any socket size. They also just released a Zeal version, 4711XZ.

That looks great... i have the regular one... might have to get that....

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

 

[Reed Prince]

It was Factory Gear's featured tool yesterday.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/7emLALvxQ5A" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[jonshonda]

I have been lucky enough to score some great deals on used Snap on ratchets over the years, now I am wanting to replace the craftsman sockets and extensions with something that has a tighter interface between the ratchet/socket/extension. And hopefully something that has easier to read lettering. Although a browse this thread from time to time, Idk that I am educated on what one of the better choices in sockets and extensions is at the moment.

I have the Koken Zeal as one of the better choices, is that still true?

 

[Ralf11]

Yes, tho the Snappy FDX sockets have easy to read lettering and a guy yesterday said they were a lot better than the older flank-drive...

 

[jonshonda]

Yes, tho the Snappy FDX sockets have easy to read lettering and a guy yesterday said they were a lot better than the older flank-drive...

I don't know if I want to know the price though! ZEAL is $130. Yeah I just looked. Too rich for my blood.

 

[pizza]

jonshonda,

i am happy with my koken zeal sockets, but i wouldn't say the lettering is super big and pronounced. if that feature is important to you, look at pics before you buy.

and as for extensions, check out their wobble-fix ones from their non-zeal line:

i'm probably going to buy some of those soon instead of the zeal ones. check out that knurling.

 

[Ralf11]

I don't know if I want to know the price though! ZEAL is $130. Yeah I just looked. Too rich for my blood.

the Snappy FDX sockets are too new to be on the used market much

and new you can only fit ONE into a 20 dollar bill

 

[jonshonda]

Yeah the snappy sockets aren't in the budget by any stretch of the imagination. That is why I am liking the thought of Koken and Zeal

 

[pizza]

ZEAL is $130.

what, specifically, is $130?

for example, this 3/8" set is about $70 shipped to the US right now: https://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B005I7HWM4/

 

[jonshonda]

^ I was looking at the 3/8 drive deep well on Frank's tools.

 

[pizza]

^ I was looking at the 3/8 drive deep well on Frank's tools.

if you order from frank, i strongly suggest emailing him first and asking him if he has the items you want in stock. if they're out of stock, don't bother. he has problems getting inventory in a timely fashion and ime misses the timeline estimates he provides. why wait weeks or months when you can get it in under a week from amazon? i understand covid blah blah, but fact is plenty of places have stuff in stock and don't miss deadlines. i'd happily give him business on what he has in stock though. he never wronged me, but thing is, i need the tools i order and can't wait an indeterminate amount of time for them.

 

[Qualitytools]

what, specifically, is $130?

for example, this 3/8" set is about $70 shipped to the US right now: https://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/product/B005I7HWM4/

That was the first set of KOKEN sockets I purchased and I liked them so much that I ordered the deep socket set also. I love the fit and finish as well as the rail they come on.

 

[jonshonda]

Thanks pizza, that is a great idea!

Qualitytools can you elaborate on what you liked so much about them?

 

[pizza]

i know you asked QT, but here's some info for you

zeal is designed for working on modern vehicles (tight spaces). they trimmed the fat on everything, including the tolerances. makes for a nice, tight fit everywhere through the fastener-socket-(adapter-extension-spinner)-ratchet system with minimal slop. and the sockets really do fit snugly on bolts, so there's a bit less damage to them. the ratchets have low backdrag. if you're working on real rusty stuff all the time, i've heard maybe the zeal sockets aren't ideal though because of the tighter fit.

regarding regular koken vs zeal ratchets:

The regular ratchets are pretty much the Japanese equivalent of Snap On. There are a huge number of variations available. Short, regular, long, fixed head, flex, roto, standard or quick release, and a choice of three different handle designs.

I’ve got a fair few of these, and much as I like my Snap On tools, I have to admit that the KoKen are very good. Are they ‘amazing’? No, just very good! Are they as good as Snap On? I would say ‘not quite’. However, here in the U.K. I can get a KoKen ratchet for about a third of the price that I would pay for a Snap On, so perhaps the value is pretty amazing!

The Z Series / Zeal is a special range of tools specially designed for automotive work on modern vehicles. The tools are slightly more compact, and built to tighter tolerances, both between the fastener and the socket, but also between the parts that make up the system.

If you have Z series / Zeal sockets, then you really should be using a ratchet from the same series to drive them. You will find the fit is superb and the tools all work well together.

If not, you’re probably better with a regular ratchet. You don’t get the huge variety of ratchets in the Z series that you do in the regular lineup, and I prefer an all steel handle, which are not available in the Z Series either.

If I was only going to buy one KoKen ratchet it would probably be the 3/8 drive roto head with the knurled handle [guessing Dave means the 3776N]. Awesome tool. Superb quality, the heavy knurling means you can use it like a ratcheting driver, and has a heft and balance unlike any other tool!

Whichever you get - enjoy!

a little video about zeal:

zeal catalog
http://www.koken-tool.co.jp/en/panflets/KOKEN201810EN.pdf

other koken catalogs
http://www.koken-tool.co.jp/en/catalog.html

a thread about zeal socket snugness
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=277956

they also make my favorite universal joints:

and check out these wobble-fix extensions (not from the z series):

i have a set on the way. they look cool, and i've heard good things, but i haven't used em yet

 

[mr.lemons]

and check out these wobble-fix extensions (not from the z series):

i have a set on the way. they look cool, and i've heard good things, but i haven't used em yet

Wobble Fix Extension Bar 'Invented by Ko-ken.'

Anyone know, did Ko-ken invent two position (wobble + locked on) wobble extensions?

 

[Dave455]

i know you asked QT, but here's some info for you

regarding regular koken vs zeal ratchets:

Wow, I’m being quoted! I’ve made it!

Pizza - yes, the 3/8 roto ratchet I referred to was the 3776N. It’s still one of my favourite ratchets. If I’m going to do a job (usually a non automotive job) and am just taking one ratchet it’s usually that one. I use it for everything from machine setting to winding coach screws into walls! It’s so versatile

Since I wrote that not much has changed.

KoKen has increasingly become my “go to” make if I suddenly need a tool. That’s partly because my U.K. dealer pretty much gives me a “next day” service, and partly because the KoKen tools I’ve bought have always done what I’ve asked.

It’s also partly because Snap On have become so costly in the U.K. now that I struggle to justify the cost. Don’t get me wrong, I love the Snap On that I have, but whereas the prices were once not too bad (especially the specials), they have now rocketed out of my range for most tools.

Some KoKen tools would be my choice irrespective of price. Their hex and Torx bits spring to mind. They’re as tough as any and tougher than most. The variety of sizes and styles on offer is boggling, and the price is affordable. Koken hex, torx, XZN etc now outnumber everything else in my shop. (Hazet are second).

Same goes for spark plug sockets, and as you mention, universals. I think the Z Series / Zeal double jointed universal is a tool unique to KoKen! I don’t have a huge amount of Z Series / Zeal as yet, but that’s mainly because I love the variety of the regular tools so much. This may change...!

 

[Avenging Bankroll]

nothing

 

[superautobacs]

No they didn't invent it. Felo has a similar extension bar in their R-Go 1/4" socket sets. It's just marketing.

https://www.kctoolco.com/felo-61681-wobble-extension-100mm-x-1-4/

I'm sure others also have a similar extension bar.

I haven't come across any other socketry manufacturer that explicitly states it. Have you? Genuine question.

It's not just Ko-ken USA; it has been stated in Ko-ken Japan's own literature.
I learned this over a decade ago and never questioned it. At the time, I read that manufacturers were producing similar items under license agreement. I dunno

 

[Avenging Bankroll]

nothing

 

[Samuel D]

What does Felo making something have to do with Koken inventing it? These are unrelated things.

 

[Avenging Bankroll]

nothing

 

[mr.lemons]

Engineer NK-36 'nippers' + Ko-ken 13139 3/8" square to 1/4" hex.

Fit and finish on the nippers looks very good to me. The dipped handles have a satin type finish, giving them a nice smooth feel.

Skin pinching feature under the pivot.

Probably been talked about before but, Tsunoda look very similar to Engineer. Wondering if Tsunoda make them both?

The Ko-ken bit adapter is stamped 'Made in Japan' on the other side. Loose (ish) hold on bits, so I'm guessing that bits may sometimes stick in fasteners rather than the holder.

Can someone who uses impact drivers tell me if I'm more likely to round out soft Allen heads with an impact or with a hand ratchet? Talking about disassembly, when the bolts are over tightened or corroded. In this case, 5mm bolts.

Edit.. also some wise words from the Ko-ken catalogue.

 

[beelsr]

ime, over-torquing and loose engagement are the main round-out/snap factors. using an impact with appropriate 'trigger squeeze' and 'dwell time' is the best way to break something loose. those little allen heads aren't lugnuts.

the baby brother 12v in your pic should be fine, the 18v beast impact will rip the head right off. DAMHIK...

 

[pizza]

Engineer NK-36 'nippers' + Ko-ken 13139 3/8" square to 1/4" hex.

Fit and finish on the nippers looks very good to me. The dipped handles have a satin type finish, giving them a nice smooth feel.

those look nice. do you have a favorite diagonal cutters? so far, mine are probably the journeyman series from klein. https://www.kleintools.com/catalog/journeyman-series/journeyman-pliers

i usually reach for the 8" angled head J248-8. nws fantastico is nice too, but i like the klein a little more. seems to cut thinner stuff more evenly and completely.

the klein 9" J2000-59 is also nice, but lately i'm not using it as much. for bigger jobs, now i usually use knipex cobolt 71 32 200

Can someone who uses impact drivers tell me if I'm more likely to round out soft Allen heads with an impact or with a hand ratchet? Talking about disassembly, when the bolts are over tightened or corroded. In this case, 5mm bolts.

not sure, but if you ruin a cap screw, there's always koken nut twister and similar tools.
turbo socket seems like a good option to me: https://omegatec.com/tscs3813b-3-8-square-drive-turbo-socket-13-piece-set.aspx
i'm ordering a set next time i run into a situation like that.

 

[mr.lemons]

those look nice. do you have a favorite diagonal cutters?

I seem to be on a never ending quest to find my favourite pliers and cutters so it keeps changing. Think the Channellock CHL728 that I recently picked up may become my favourite for general use.

I've not tried Klein pliers/cutters. Don't think I've every seen a pair other than in pictures. Would definitely like try them. Prices here are not great though.

 

[pizza]

it's also interesting that there's a JIS logo on those engineer diagonal cutters.
i thought that e.g. vessel doesn't put that mark on their tools because JIS doesn't license its mark out anymore? or maybe that's just for the (obsolete?) cruciform driver JIS standard?

 

[mr.lemons]

Yeah, I noticed that.