Which tig welder should I buy

[Monza Harry]

Dr. I agree find the best and adjust to your realities (price, space, etc.) I go with red for one good reason and one silly one. A customer came in to a local W.S. and was looking for a part for his 60+ year old Lincoln (my buddy was there) and I was there when he picked it up. No it wasn't still being made but Lincoln at that time didn't throw out old parts. That was 20 years ago, (today?) but that was an eye opener for my prospective. Silly one is it matches my colour scheme. I have been welding for about 45 years I am certified and weld for part of my job but I am far from your level of skill. I have a pretty fair knowledge base but lack the two handed co-ordination to do pretty TIG welds and your KB is impressive. You are definitely correct to give a full picture and then let those reading to make their descions with a good picture of what's what! Thanx for contributing! Harry

 

[sberry]

I will agree with Dr that the mig is the workhorse for auto body. In will disagree that price is the first and foremost concern for everyone else when we talk about economy. It's often about economy not about being cheap. There is a difference. But I think that quality is no longer the most sure bet over the long run today. I also disagree that hobby types are not interested in ROI , they most surely are.
I don't own any off brand, I bought 10 new machines,, I passed my first open **** all position, worked in nukes about the time Jake was born. At that time the only thing I ever seen something else other than red or blue was a Sears type thing, no one even knew what an import welder was.
Even as little as 10 yrs ago they were not a reliable alternative. As for dealers, not a single thing I need from them, none. I don't need the salesman, being blown by them, their service, nothing. It ain't anyone making fun of anyone's opinion but there are other pro welders on here.
I for one think the cars and most of that **** is a waste, if they want it they do and the same for top end welding equipment which I think is better than the car. Last 2 new machines I bought were blue too, the colors look pretty next to the red. As duck said,, there is some bias,, because I use them don't think everyone strikes an arc needs one in today's world.
I bet we would both agree that a 99$ flux unit ain't much a machine, I tried a couple for giggles, the cheapest machine is not good, no real surprise but new technology has brought the cost of survivable machines down, down to the point that the risk/reward margins have changed, the old cliches are no longer gospel. Even the welding store guy is admitting this,, he ain't gonna say it while a guy is drooling over a 6k unit with checkbook in hand,,, I can see it,,, wait, I got something for a grand does the same thing.
I am not disparaging the love for better stuff,, what my general argument is the insistence that it's somehow a better deal for some reason no longer relevant, it's an opinion and not a fact and may be statistically not accurate,, it's about the tool not how I feel about it or value.
Someone comes here and wants snap, wants blue don't see me talking them out of it, if they asking about value then it's a different question especially to part timers.
A good machine is not that much a cost to a pro shop employs men,,, it's way down on the list, not a deal breaker.

 

[dnschmidt]

If you want to learn a new skill go for the TIG. If you're tired of MIG go for the TIG. If you do aluminum you sort of have to go with the TIG. If you want to do real work on a car and you're not into metal shaping where you have English wheels and planishing hammers where the softness of the TIG weld actually matters since flap discs don't much give a **** as to how hard the weld is TIG actually ***** for autobody as many have mentioned above. I have both and I use both. But unless you're Ron Carville and making fenders from sheet metal TIG actually ***** and you're learning curve will be infinite. If you check out the fabrication series which is basically an all TIG channel. He's either repairing something made out of aluminum or doing pipes of some sort. Neither of these are normal autobody repairs.

 

[sberry]

I will agree with Jake that there are a lot of people including,,, and maybe especially professionals that would benefit from better equipment. Most are not as good of managers as he is. I got a but should have bought new engine drive and then good inverter way back,,, has tossed good money on top of bad forever trying to fix junk for last 40 years in this biz. I bought too good on my first,,, one of the reasons I am sensitive to this process is have made a lot of buying mistakes over the years. If you asked me 30/40 yrs ago would have a different answer,, some due to the equipment, some due to bias, some from stuff I heard.
We were talking about this yesterday, today I am willing to accept a little more work for a lot of economy and oft the econ works better. If the pressure plate is working I am way more inclined today to simply replace the disk vs putting all new in, never had one fail doing that and not pleased with the remand dont work as good as the old one,,, we gonna save by tossing money at it to start with doesnt always work.
Back to the welder... in a busy shop the cost of the machine is darn near moot,,, new truck cost 10x the welder, last 1/2 as long, the man cost 5x the cost of the truck. These are expenses, can be depreciated, as the duck said, not the same to someone coming directly out of pocket or has to be saved for. In this case a good hobby can have return in salvage and repairs.
I was really tempted to get a 200 Dyn when they came out. They were so far ahead with adjustable freq. I got over it in a couple days as I already have a 300 Synchro and I dont really enjoy it or not enough to want to do work to pay for it... maybe the wrong approach but even though I am decent or better I dont enjoy it enough to care if that makes sense.
My biggest welding mistake was not doing pipeline,,, a place where high quality, production and hi inspection levels were rewarded. Lots of other places rewarded thru more work rather than more money.

 

[sberry]

I will agree with Jake that there are a lot of people including,,, and maybe especially professionals that would benefit from better equipment. Most are not as good of managers as he is. I got a but should have bought new engine drive and then good inverter way back,,, has tossed good money on top of bad forever trying to fix junk for last 40 years in this biz. I bought too good on my first,,, one of the reasons I am sensitive to this process is have made a lot of buying mistakes over the years. If you asked me 30/40 yrs ago would have a different answer,, some due to the equipment, some due to bias, some from stuff I heard.
We were talking about this yesterday, today I am willing to accept a little more work for a lot of economy and oft the econ works better. If the pressure plate is working I am way more inclined today to simply replace the disk vs putting all new in, never had one fail doing that and not pleased with the remand dont work as good as the old one,,, we gonna save by tossing money at it to start with doesnt always work.
Back to the welder... in a busy shop the cost of the machine is darn near moot,,, new truck cost 10x the welder, last 1/2 as long, the man cost 5x the cost of the truck. These are expenses, can be depreciated, as the duck said, not the same to someone coming directly out of pocket or has to be saved for. In this case a good hobby can have return in salvage and repairs.
I was really tempted to get a 200 Dyn when they came out. They were so far ahead with adjustable freq. I got over it in a couple days as I already have a 300 Synchro and I dont really enjoy it or not enough to want to do work to pay for it... maybe the wrong approach but even though I am decent or better I dont enjoy it enough to care if that makes sense.
My biggest welding mistake was not doing pipeline,,, a place where high quality, production and hi inspection levels were rewarded. Lots of other places rewarded thru more work rather than more money.

 

[sberry]

I think price is super important. The fact that qc has went way up and the price way down has taken a lot of pain out of entry and a huge incentive for people to get tools they need, they simply wouldnt buy if its too hi. DIY decisions are a lot based on ROI. We bought a couple tools with the intent of it being our use it would break even and if we had a chance under the right circumstances would do a couple wallet flushes. Used it once and found out we really dont need it and glad I didnt buy premium.
As for welding machines, I bought some new along the way. There is a lot of legacy and good will from a long history where value was really good, they were not scared to make a buck but the product was/is good, very good, long warranty with relatively good dealers, some had some weak areas but they were not farts in a whirlwind and looking back some might have been better than I gave them credit for at the time.
Welders were a value, they were not premium tool truck prices, they were not flea market but they were well designed and very well built and assembled. Lots 30. 40 yrs, hard to believe 50 and 60 still work and never need a minutes service including leads decades old. They were inovative and really didnt plan osolessence and service which they just as soon never provide you and they still that way.
They are or were so reliable I wouldnt bet on it not working or certainly the problem being the operator. As for service soon after, they really have thought this thru. Miller and Hobart put an 800 number on the box. There is a lot of self management in those outfits and they simply skip the lobby, the secretary, the message center all of it from the box of a new sale right to Hobart expert Daryle, etc goes right to his desk, most right to him, he answers and highly interested in any problem you got till you blazing away full speed.
Some I had minor problems with and some none. Engine drive had a couple minor things and local dealer isnt an engine man,,, really as easy to put a part on from the parts store and be on the way. I had a lug come loose in a little blue one and was an external type fix, guy even ask me,,, can you replace this, I said yes, he said,,, I gonna walk out and snag one from the line and hot shot it in the mail and seems like it was here the next day.
I remember a Bud bought a new 252 maybe and was in prep for a scheduled job and the thing quit. Its been a while and dont recall if it was serviceable or wasnt but he figured out it was the valve, the engineer was smart enough to read this up from what the guy said and sent it right out and it showed up next day. The economy is huge, 5 minutes on the phone, no book work, no chain of labor starting with the customer trucking it back to the loading dock etc.
I remember telling one slightly after the fact the box had a hole in it and he was about pissed it wasnt the first thing I told him about. Also over the time 1 machine had a screw loose or missing and they were not dismissive, genuinely wanted to know. Then,,, they dont email about it, first thing is he walks out on to the line to find out why.

 

[sberry]

Its neat they are going to be sales competitive. New entrants might upgrade from imports once they get their feet wet. I do value the want to buy well, I know guys that do it, just wired a couple outlets for one bought a new blue gadget. Price wasnt first for him, his kids were not gonna miss a meal, he didnt have to painfully save a long time and didnt care about the return.
Could have parked an 800$ machine as well as 3K or 4, dont recall. The want wasnt based on any logic other than want and that is ok. I dont mean to insult that. But today as a going mechanical concern can buy a 2$ wrench 98% as good as a 22$ at a common store it changes the value, has the potential for the same work at a fraction of the cost, multiples and not margins.
15 years ago, maybe 10, it goes fast but a pos cost 60%, now good is 20/30 and some hand tools even less and battery technology has taken a leap,,,,, there is a leap on the hi end, there is sposed to be but I had to order a drill in 92 cost 150$, had a 3/8 chuck, weighed 2x as much as a new one I just buy at Walmart for 50, better, more power and am now kicking myself for buying 2 or getting them a couple years ago. I was agonizing about new pro stuff and may buy 1 new and another economy.
A 50$ drill back then was a toy and suitable for running sheet metal screws out for short time. 30 years later, better, 30% the cost, a whole pallet of them on the shelf.
Never have so many been able to afford so good. Over the last 35 yrs welder prices were stable for a long time and one of the reasons for all the new innovation was to drive prices up to the 211 compated to the Hobart 187 ir the Lincoln 180T that cost only about 50 more than it did way back then, went up 5 a year. They are so reliable dealers can discount without needing to handle warranty. A TSC guy told me,,, we got Hobart and Farmhand at the time,, said Farmhand, 5% of the sales, 95% of the problems. They shouldnt even sold them. Sears went down that road, duh, TSC should have said,, we got a little cheaper machine but we dont sell a bad one, take yur chances at Walmart for that or HF at the time.
HF has figured out to get off the bottom with this and by some reliable accounts got some good machines. Lincoln made so many models for a while, 100, 125, 140, they might have settled on the 140 now, the t version is a good machine, 5 speed stick, reliable and simple.
They are about like a buzzer, they made them a long time with no fundamental change, a little new plastic and different jackets, they shipped the T to the box stores and keep the C for dealers I think.

 

[sberry]

If a guy is staying in the shop where he has 240 the 190 is good and spool ready. The gun feels like a toy made out of scrap parts but that doesnt stop it from working quite well. All light and easy to use,, ha
I cant see any incentive to make it any cheaper now, as duck said,,, stabilized at least to some extent and how many new features can we build in to it and now include on a sub 300$ machine, efficient and MVP. Dont got to burn but a handful of sticks with one to be in the black.
One of the guys on Miller a shop owner also PM me and said,,,, dont tell these guys here but I also use those B&D grinders. Same thing, pre 1990 a Metabo was the king everyone used at work, they were 150, todays 30-50$ is serviceable in comparison, is something else better,,, maybe but no where near that cost, disposable is good as is cheap replacement,,, thats all a plus rather than a liability.

 

[pb57]

Something else to consider is resale. In the 80's I had a welding/machine shop and bought a new at the time miller 250 mig. I used it for 5 years, then switched professions and became a deputy sheriff. I had an auction and the miller 250 brought what I paid for it new. Fast forward 30 years and I recently retired from law enforcement and am back into welding/machining/restoring so it was a no brainer for me to get a miller 252 mig. I love buying American when I can and always proven quality. Paul

 

[gearhead1]

Of course there are Lincoln and Miller, now Everlast and AHP are popular along with a bunch of imported ones which are probably coming from the same 3 to 4 factories. I was contemplating an Everlast or AHP, but a guy at work bought a Lincoln TIG 200 for home. It wasn’t much more than an Everlast and cheaper than the Miller Diversion. The Miller Diversion does not have much adjustment nor does the Hobart EZ Tig 165. It appears the Miller Econotigs became the Miller Diversion 180 and Hobart EZ Tig 165 after Miller bought Hobart and redid the line-up.

I have a Miller 180 Mig and have always used that on body panels without issue.

I personally would use a Mig on body panels but if you really want a Tig, I would look at a Lincoln TIG 200.

 

[pbon]

Are you better off with no tools or with cheap tools? It’s impossible to get the job done with no tools. It’s sometimes frustrating to get the job done with cheap tools but you usually can get it done. Sometimes you have to buy tools twice because you need it now and can’t afford a good tool; later if you can afford it you might buy a better version of the same tool. buy the best. I am not going to buy a $3000 welder unless I can demonstrate to myself that I have the need and will use it. Years later, I am still getting buy with my HF Mig and Tig, and have not yet felt like The $3000 welder would really benefit me. I still hope to get there. When I do, maybe I will sell the cheap stuff cheap to help someone else get started. To me, whatever loss I take on it does not matter — it’s part of my education.

 

[dr_clyde]

Are you better off with no tools or with cheap tools? It’s impossible to get the job done with no tools. It’s sometimes frustrating to get the job done with cheap tools but you usually can get it done. Sometimes you have to buy tools twice because you need it now and can’t afford a good tool; later if you can afford it you might buy a better version of the same tool. buy the best. I am not going to buy a $3000 welder unless I can demonstrate to myself that I have the need and will use it. Years later, I am still getting buy with my HF Mig and Tig, and have not yet felt like The $3000 welder would really benefit me. I still hope to get there. When I do, maybe I will sell the cheap stuff cheap to help someone else get started. To me, whatever loss I take on it does not matter — it’s part of my education.

See, that's the crux of the issue. I would rather hire a job out than buy cheap tools. I would rather not have the tool than own a cheap one. If I can't justify owning a good one, I can't really justify one at all and am better off either renting or hiring out.

If I'm going to bother doing it, I want good tools. If I can't afford the tools, I hire the job done. I get immense satisfaction from owning good quality things.

Some guys would rather putter around with the cheap stuff, and that's fine. I don't have the patience for that. Life's too short to be mad at my stuff for not working like I want.

Every time I've bought the cheap stuff, I've regretted it. Every time. Even the "ok" stuff I have from HF or wherever irritates me every time I use it. I'm willing to admit that most cheap things function. Some of it pretty well. And the value is probably pretty good. But it still leaves me wanting. I want that extra little bit of fit and finish. The small extra gain in performance. The long tail of the bell curve on diminishing returns. The pride of owning the good one.

I don't wear a watch because I can't justify the Omega I would really want. I'd rather not wear a watch than wear a Timex, even though the Timex is a perfectly fine watch. It's just not an Omega. But someday, when I have a bit of extra unspoken for cash, I might just splurge on that nice watch.

Obviously there are compromises made every day or I'd be constantly broke or have nothing. I kinda have to pick my battles. But in things I consider "heirloom" possessions, I like to get stuff that I'm proud to own and pass on someday. I have my great grandfather's Snap-on socket set he bought right after WWII ended, and they will be still able to be used when I pass them on someday.

Most people aren't built like me I've determined. And that's fine. My solution isn't for everyone. But I feel like there needs to be an argument made occasionally for people like me. I don't think any less of the guys who can't or won't justify the extra spend for the nicer stuff. That's their choice in this free world. The bulk of the world doesn't think like me.

I just like what I like, and folks can feel free to ignore my free advice.

 

[sberry]

I have done it both ways. I have found some I like as good or better for certain things or to dupe for convenience. Convenience is probably my first consideration, second is duty cycle or severity, 3rd is cost to some extent. I do so much different stuff would be about impossible to hire out. We have a steep learning curve, lots of stuff the first time, for a while tech was out racing us. I didnt need a studio camera to make a utube and the 1 I did get at the time was better than we were.
I got chain drive cumalongs but I found I actually prefer a 4T 50$ wire. You can gety a cumalong cheaper but its not the same, its not that its really "better" so much but so much heavier that we dont overload it. The cost would make it disposable in some events. Dont ruin my good stuff riding it around.
I replace a bunch of screwdrivers recently and to tell the truth I like the ones I got as well as any I ever used. A guy may have a favorite I understand that. We have kind of systemized some stuff and simply settled and said,,,, this is what we are going to use. I bought 8 new Stanley knives on sale a month or so ago. At 4 a piece I felt different about wholesale replacement and duplication and one of the critical concerns was seeding them out and stocking the cabnit, replacing any damaged, having enough to dispose of anything faulty.

 

[sberry]

I live out in the sticks. Shopping is more difficult. I am an hour away from box stores but have someone in the area 2 or 3 times a week. Lots I go for brand, I got a thing for 440 Channelock, 7, 10 and 11R Vise Grip. If my little wire feeder turned in to a cinder tomorrow would probably buy a brand one, not sure it would be blue as I simply dont need the features.
I was tired of not having a load tester. I dont recall how much one was from the truck, someplace else I priced one and always figured, well I will find good ole used one. Finally hit the send button on the HF thing for 50$ and I must have tested 200 batteries with it.
To me it aint no good if it doesnt work no matter how cheap it is. My thing is I used to toss a lot at some of the better stuff in the prototype stage or didnt flush it out at the point I invested, not that I wouldnt simply bought better or cheaper but different and found myself committed with things that didnt return their potential.
The choices were not as good as they are today either. Same class welder on smaller footprint machines had 3KAC, then 6, then 8 now they all got 10 and some better. I got 2 SA200, best engine drive machines made, 1 I bought new when I was a sprout and after the fact went and bought another small footprint machine which I did use.

 

[sberry]

I can remember when a guy had to fix about everything came from HF, mail order, never even hear of a store and before that Sears, they has some good and some losers. Had a bud got some of it and it wasn't impressive.
At 25 I would have been on the same wave about quality, at 35 wouldn't have got much argument, at 45 waz looking for more economical and easier aqusition so it wasn't so guy wrenching and at 60 now have some real history with a lot of it. I have went the circle, decided it didn't make as much difference as I thought it would.
I was to a bud the other day, he shopped off the truck the last 35-40 years and just stumbled in to a HF. Got a new big chest, every time he opens a drawer he bout cums all over himself, says,, I can't believe this was only 650, my last box was 6500.
No one even considered something like that back in the day. I paid that then for a Sears and it wasn't their top li e, better box today for the same dollars, today's dollars, even at modest salary can own it outright for a week pay.

 

[sberry]

This is about lime politics, same type of choosing sides, the math even looks similar, even the same kind of arguments. I got to wonder if we did a blind test with a 1000 Stanley sockets put in professional boxes. If the real results would match an opinion poll about how many of them would bust and how many fasteners would meet there demise from damage from the tool?
Think the margin of error would be similar to a political poll?
Similar to the opinion that everyone uses a cheaper wrench dicks around with an inferior tool. My economy tools work well, they been proven, wouldn't have them if they didn't. This is different than faulty or inadequate. My good tools work too.
HF now has some good welders, local welding stores are now carrying econo machines. Guy says hobby types are buying the blue, it's shops buying the others and they been out for a while and not carrying them back in. No one would have thought real welders would use a 400$ multi machine.
Nothing wrong with buying top shelf but I am really impressed with near the bottom as of late. The 200$ drill should work well and ask me a couple years ago if a 50$ one was any good and I would have said no. 50$ drills for most of my career were junk, not the same today. Ask me 5 yrs ago if I would be reaching over my Milwaukee to get the PC I would have said no way, no how, never happen.
Not sure that will happen with welding machines but might be wrong if I said never.
Lots of guys like me probably got a North star water pump tool. Most probably used it once. Even dealer guys couldn't wear one out, got mine delivered along with the pump, Calvan or Lisle maybe. Best one in the world would have simply cost more. Not going to march it up to the dealer cause I won't buy a 40$ tool. I can see it being different if I had to buy a 400$ for 1 off job.
I got a couple Lisle things I wasn't impressed with, auto parts guy wants my biz, didn't even blink when I returned them. Returned a half a dozen tool in my career, maybe,, but the Calvan and the Napa worked like it was sposed to. It doesn't have the finish of some of the rest but it didn't eat much after the fact.

 

[dr_clyde]

I never said the cheap stuff doesn’t work. I just said that I don’t want it.

I’m glad your stuff works for you. It wouldn’t for me, and that’s why we have different opinions to express.

 

[sberry]

It likely would work for you, you want something better.
It would be a bit different if I came at this from working on my hobby Jeep or Camaro. My background is in at, heavy equipment, oilfield and structural Ironwork. Probably worked in a dozen shops similar to yours too at one point.
I have seen guys work with pitiful junk, some made it work, some needed help.
I got friends work with stuff too junk for me, mostly old and worn, beyond its time and almost any replacement would be better.
At my place I have had masters, still do occasionally, they never say we need better tools.

 

[dr_clyde]

It likely would work for you, you want something better.
It would be a bit different if I came at this from working on my hobby Jeep or Camaro. My background is in at, heavy equipment, oilfield and structural Ironwork. Probably worked in a dozen shops similar to yours too at one point.
I have seen guys work with pitiful junk, some made it work, some needed help.
I got friends work with stuff too junk for me, mostly old and worn, beyond its time and almost any replacement would be better.
At my place I have had masters, still do occasionally, they never say we need better tools.

No. You don’t understand. It wouldn’t work for me because I wouldn’t buy it. I have no interest in owning it.

It’s not about function. It’s not about saving money. It’s not about value. I don’t care if the cheap screwdriver from the flea market works just as good as my Wera or SO or PB Swiss.

I like what I like. I won’t buy it if I don’t.

You’ve said yourself, if you won the lottery, you’d drop your tools and never look back. If I won the lottery, there would be some very happy tool and equipment salesman in my town.

We’re in it for different reasons. To me, the tools and equipment are just as important as the work. I’d choose a different career if I couldn’t use nice tools.

 

[sberry]

My perspective regards the actual tool. My experience is similar to others have used similar. It's really as much fact as opinion. I watched this a bit when I first came on forums. The China ratchet in 3/4 from the fleas was junk, agreed, early deep HF impacts metric were bad, cheap locking pliers no good, tubing wrenches have issues, a couple others come to mind but it's pretty rare.
I really ain't talk I g to you in this sense, I get it you don't want it, that understandable . I thought I had a golden arm at one point too,

 

[dr_clyde]

It’s not a “golden arm”. My tools don’t make me any better or worse. My hard work, practice, interest in learning, and experience informs my skills, not my tools.

Only a fool blames his tools for his failures.

Could I do my work with cheap import stuff? I’m sure I could. I would get no satisfaction from owning them and I sure as hell wouldn’t want customers to see them. I take pride in what I’ve worked hard for.

 

[sberry]

I got to agree about a couple things. Like you said, no experience with it and you are buying for a different reason, it's not bad just different. But like the start of this thread the guys asking these questions likely are interested in value. I stay out of a lot of threads especially if they are not about that or if the price is irrelevant.
You would be correct about the lottery, could care less about tool vendors, some enjoy all that and only have some educated guess as why.
I don't care to wear a watch either and no amount I had would change that. My interest is really in utilities,, can I match the need and the man with the want or the problem. I used to do without cause I didn't or couldn't spend. Economy has been a Godsend for that. I have parked a lot of expensive stuff, some no longer needed, some wasn't right when I got it. I find some trial well worth helping the learning curve and often improves a better purchase providing it'd needed after that.
We were looking at a 700$ tool the other day, another 7 large for a pump. Found a little pump I had and found a fitting to solder to a hose barb to make the tool. All in service before we could order it, only one thing it won't do and we don't need to do it.
It's a bit the same with the accys for a lot, simply don't need to do all it can do and am willing to cut an adapter in the chop saw provided we ever need to adopt it for use on a rolls.

 

[sberry]

We could probably do lunch together without a problem, neither of us would be looking for the dollar menu.

 

[sberry]

I happened to ask the auto parts guy, why you trying to sell me a 300$ fuel pump insteaf of the 150 one,, he says cause ee dont like the warranty on the 150 unit, I asked him, how many you had to warrant,, well none.
The prevailing wisdom is I wouldn't wanna do it again appear to be a lot of correlation due to cost, the 65 was in a white box and the same as the 150. spending more, well, I am replacing the last one as it is at the time and the 65$ one I put in has been working 10 yrs now. Doesn't a

 

[sberry]

I think you are doing exactly what you should, it is right for you. I also think cause it's psychological doesn't mean it's not real. Doing things cause you want to is good. Its a good characteristic in business people. I have seen the place and it's a good right match. Got some nice stuff and some big good pieces at the right price.
I actually agree with your decision to buy new, good brand name welding machines. A new 5k unit isn't a gut wrenched to you, it shouldn't be and with steady work the juice between it and junk be returned in a month or even a single downtime event,, maybe not the whole cost always but the difference or spread so to speak.
Jake may not think I understand his point but I do, may e from another perspective but I do. I would say for him and some others similar is really accurate, a true value added salesman would keep their mouth closed and play up to it.
A lot of guys would set on the couch if it wasn't for wants. It's a great motivator. Race tracks are full of company owners live for that. Worked for a guy that lived for Corvette. Kind of a pig in one but he was a guy didn't know squat and despite himself made a lot. He couldn't wait to get out of the place at the day and had some corvette deal to do. Seen it with snowmobiles, dope and casinos, simply wanting to use fine tools is good. That's the economic sense.it makes more than anything else.

 

[dr_clyde]

I should point out that I don’t advocate just throwing money at problems, nor do I think that the most expensive thing is automatically the best.

I obviously find a return on my spend. To ME, the long tail of diminishing returns is usually worth the money. I generally find the juice is worth the squeeze on premium, heirloom products.

I am fine with saving money when it’s appropriate. I’m pretty frugal when it counts. I also find that shopping smart, making the right deals and being willing to wait will net you incredible deals and value on premium products.

 

[sberry]

I don't think you should jam up your place with cheap import. But customers could really care less, no one picks thru our stuff to see what brand is on it. If they look they would see Milwaukee, Mohawk, red wine and blue, all well used and orderly all ready to flip a switch in pit stop time.
They would find a staple in hand tools, strip, channels. Weiss.

 

[sberry]

Yes, I am sure you are frugal. Your management skills are very good. I also know you don't toss money. You focus well where it hits the road.
My only point with this is purely mechanical. I am looking to see where I changed my mind over quite a long term with this. I don't know duck face well but I suspect he been there and watched this. His term stabilized is rather profound especially considering diminishing rate of returns so to speak, aspect ratio might apply some with this and it changes by application. So that is somewhat fluid.

 

[gearhead1]

I agree with dr_clyde to some degree. I’ve had too many bad experiences with cheap stuff. I agree the overseas stuff is much better than it used to be. I have some overseas stuff, but certain things, I’ll pay a little more for the peace of mind, like the Lincoln TIG 200. It might be made overseas, but I bet I can get parts for it 5 years from now and I can get it repaired at my LWS if need be. To me it’s worth the extra $300 - $400 over an Everlast for that.

 

[sberry]

If a guy asked me in the 90's I wouldn't have thought the cost of the generic tool would have went so far down I would say no way. As little as 15 yrs ago it appeared the battery cost would rise. I am still in awe at how well a 30$ grinder and a 50$ battery drill work. Drill is so light it feels like a toy at first. I like the feel fit and and all of nice stuff, we expect that, no one ever expected this consumer tool would get this good at that cost, never would have fully predicted this future and the math of it all is historical especially with modern vendors to go along with it.
Local hwd used to have 1 on the shelf and bend a guy over it, supply houses were some better if they wanted to be but Wal-Mart has a whole pallet selling it on margins vs multiples.

 

[sberry]

I will agree the 3 or 4 notes might well be worth the difference over the Everlast. Most of my point is at some different equipment with different markup rates. I now use a grinder I used to pay 100$ for. Blindfolded couldn't tell them apart. Run the same, new one last longer ever with a lot better cord. Its 20% the cost till you get to propriety where there is a perceptible difference.

 

[sberry]

Pliers and clamps gave lagged a little but I think that's a lot due to some loyalty with the fact clock and grip were not outrageous all the way and still competitive, can't build a knockoff at a tempting cost. But screwdrivers, combo wrenches, sockets and adjustable work well and are brutally guff, wrenches wayyyy so.

 

[sberry]

I like the new Stickmaye 200. The price of the dc had been creeping up, it's now a 200A machine and the 160 is the same cost as the old style AC. The Everlast a 100 less.

 

[sberry]

This is kind of coat tail. Actually one of my decent skill sets is spending other peoples money. I am super pragmatic about it.
A friend worked at a golf course, it was steady and for a part of a lot of days could simply put on headphones and ride around for a good part of the day, he didnt mind mowing and operating.
But the boss liked the casino on the weekends so they had to bankroll that and a couple times a year the guy took off and put the GF in charge. Gary used to go to her, look at these rentals all the way along, a bunch of cost assosiated with this,, a saw or a mower and said it took her all of 3 minutes to send him to the store with a check saying,,, get a good one.
One I did ordered one of the 100$ HF scrapers, owner said,, wtf, we could have kept 2 stoner laborers here? They were done the first afternoon with tool, made about 10X on that fugger in a week,, ha

 

[sberry]

I love modern shopping,,, so much less long term planning in some sense. It takes a little shopping, I got a woman does most of it for me. The cameras and stuff make it so easy.
Its a little easier to buy better stuff when there is some specialty. Our **** we often dont know what we are doing and makes investment tricky, we can now follow it farther down the chain and often just in time shop.
Back in the day Sears was the ticket. Some hardwares and larger auto parts stores, and then was lying to the secretary about sposed to get a check and head to the Sears. Even called a guys wife and had him badgered in to the flea to get some stuff. Strangely enough never had a guy outright fire me for that. I had employees thank for it.
I outright say,,, this was just stupid and we had downtime yesterday in the hours for half a dozen men cause we aint got some wrenches and a couple hammers everyone shares, duh.

 

[sberry]

My stuff has a yearly cycle with a little bit of contracting tossed in. If it pays for itself in a year in expense its a no brainer. Like a lot of guys do aqusition as dictated by events. They make a better shovel than that razorback thing at HD but not at that price and weight and it can be had off the shelf without a dealer visit.

 

[sberry]

Seems there was another brand of welder a guy named Steve was selling, did a good job. HTP maybe, it had and maybe still had some attractions. Lot of guys said they really liked it, never ran one. As to what tig, there are some qualified guys on here got it narrowed down some, I woundnt mind seeing some consensus pic on it and a couple air comp models that had proven out well. Need the 5 hp 2 stage economy enough there would be some incentive to step up from the singles. I am a firm believer a guy should invest in comp and a wire feeder with a bit of long term view. They aint good if they aint adequate, does a 63 yr old retiree gonna fuss over old cars need pressure oil and 50K hr life between ohauls?

 

[sberry]

My philosophy to some extent, a 190 wire feed is 300 more than a 140 at 500$. Its twice the machine for roughly 50% more. The fact it can do alum with a spooly may make the math even better. A lot of times better to me isnt always better but simply more power. A strong guy bent on abuse can overload a 8 amp grinder, 11 probably not. **** last so much longer due to load %.

 

[sberry]

I think there is a tig some got that gives everything but a happy ending for 800 or so. It might be on my short list to get warmed up over and if a guy was a buy sell type might upgrade from there.
If it was a wire feed question might still have a hard time prying me away from a Hobart or Blue if a guy wanted all the features.
I use the old, not going upgrade just or the sake of it. Might be a bit different buying new. Might be different for all in one. If I gonna run the **** out of it would just as soon have 2 simple machines vs one fussy one. It cost about the same and a guy can do portable stick in this scheme.

 

[BigMike782]

Cary, you seem to be having a nice conversation with yourself.