1935 Blackhawk No. 27CB Hot Box - Help Me Decide

[thehorse13]

I typically have no issue deciding what to do when it comes to preserving or restoring old stuff but this time I'm on the fence. All opinions are welcome.

I bought this little box off the bay for a staggering $2.25. It's certainly lived a full life and will require minor metal bending, sanding, some more bending and rust removal before it will be put in service again. I will sand and paint the exterior of the box so that it looks really nice again. What you can't see is that 85% or more of the exterior paint is gone.

It has a lot going for it. All the parts are there, all of the hinges and handles work, the fixed internal tray is remarkably straight and there are zero rot holes.

So what has me on the fence? The original label.

I have attached two pictures. The first is what it looked like after a very careful rub and the second is what's left of the original label now that all of the flakes have fallen off. There was no way to stop this and as you can see by the sharp black areas, a good amount has come off. Without question, there will be more label loss during the refresh process. The question is, should I preserve what's left or simply buy a replacement decal?

The purpose of this little box is just to hold my random BlackHawk stuff that does not belong to a set. I have no immediate plans to try and fill this set.

All of that said, what do you think? Preserve what's left or go for new?

 

[Farmer J.]

I think it's time for a new label.

 

[jabberwoki]

Document the old looks and redo it. It's well deserved.

 

[thehorse13]

Thanks fellas.

Does anyone here make these labels anymore? This is how it started out before shipping. I know it's hard to tell from this picture but a significant portion of the label is flaking to the point where nothing is holding it on. There was a pile of flakes that looked like red and gold glitter inside when I first opened the box.

 

[Cruzan80]

Mattblast does replacement labels for block grinders. Maybe he could do one? AFAIK, he doesnt do waterslide, but rather solid labels

Sent from my Phone 2 using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[Oldtuleguy]

I probably have a good one I can email you a good pic of. Jim's engine decals will make some if you send him a good pic.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Does anyone here make these labels anymore?

I have made my own with great results (in my own opinion...), if you want to try that. So has JoCo, also with great results.

Note that my method is meant to recreate the used decal, not a mint factory decal.

1. Take a high quality photo of the original decal.

2. Paste or Insert the image into a program such as Photoshop or Vizio or PowerPoint or anything with a grid so you can enlarge or reduce it to the exact dimensions of the original decal.

3. Print that on a high quality printer on high quality paper.

4. Cut it out out of the sheet of printer paper.

5. Distress the image in all the same places that it is distressed in the photo. In other words, rub, tear, or scrape the paper away in those places to make the frays and holes in the decal that the photograph reproduced actual frays and holes. I have used an X-Acto knife, a pin punch, and a small screwdriver.

5. When you've refinished your box and you do your final clear coat, place the decal on the lid when it's sticky.

6. When that is dry, rub the decal back and forth a few times with 0000 steel wool, it will rough up all the edges and holes you made.

7. Put another clear coat over that.

The used look is convincing to the eye and distracts from the hard-to-detect fact that it is not an original water transfer decal.

 

[thehorse13]

All great info. Thanks to all of you, I will have this little box cleaned up in no time.

 

[bmwrd0]

I would preserve.

It is only original once, and even with a partial label it is, in my opinion, 1000x better.

But, I am a patina man, and only repaint if it is at the point where others will through it in scrap.

 

[DD T/A]

I would preserve.

It is only original once, and even with a partial label it is, in my opinion, 1000x better.

But, I am a patina man, and only repaint if it is at the point where others will through it in scrap.

Gonna have to agree with you here.

 

[Farmer J.]

All great info. Thanks to all of you, I will have this little box cleaned up in no time.

Look forward to seeing that, and it will go well with the rest of your nice looking stuff.

 

[thehorse13]

I would preserve.

It is only original once, and even with a partial label it is, in my opinion, 1000x better.

But, I am a patina man, and only repaint if it is at the point where others will through it in scrap.

Gonna have to agree with you here.

This is the root of my fence sitting. I love original stuff and of course the patina but only up to a point. Once it starts losing the, "feel" then I start considering restoration/refresh. I know that sounds strange but a certain vintage vibe has to be coming from the item and almost like a soul, it can fade and become lost. I hope that makes sense.

The original decal is going to be almost 100% gone by the time I'm finished and the exterior of the box has almost all the finish already gone. I'm left with an extremely solid restore/refresh candidate.

That said, it looks like through OldTuleGuy, I will have a path for a reproduction water decal. Thanks again goes to him.

Thanks to everyone who has responded. You've helped nudge me to the restore/refresh with a new water decal.

When I'm finished I will post some pictures here.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

This is the root of my fence sitting. I love original stuff and of course the patina but only up to a point.

That point, and the definition of that point, is the crux of the issue. That point is fuzzy and different for everyone.

This has come up many times before.

The completely roached box with cancerous rust spots, very little paint to no paint remaining, and no decal or only traces of a decal is as easy a call (strip, refinish, and re-decal!) to make as the near mint-y box with almost all original paint and a near-perfect decal (preserve as is!).

It's always the boxes in the middle that present the quandary.

I always lean toward preservation. But as anyone who has seen my "Barn Find" thread will know, I definitely have a "point" of no return. Like yours, mine is not scientific. It's not a 51% paint/desirable patina and 51% decal then keep as is kind of decision. It's more of a feeling.

In my opinion, if refinishing and re-decaling does more justice and honor to a vintage box and brand than preserving a finish that is more deleterious than admirable and preserving a decal that can hardly be read, I have no qualms about re-creating an original, more sustainable appearance. Not everything original and aged and worn is worth keeping that way. And every museum curator will tell you that, every reputable antique furniture restorer. But just like us amateurs, they all have their fuzzy decision points, too.

That decal is not only beyond saving, but not worth saving even if it wasn't crumbling. But that is based on MY "point".

 

[Farmer J.]

This is the root of my fence sitting. I love original stuff and of course the patina but only up to a point. Once it starts losing the, "feel" then I start considering restoration/refresh. I know that sounds strange but a certain vintage vibe has to be coming from the item and almost like a soul, it can fade and become lost. I hope that makes sense.

The original decal is going to be almost 100% gone by the time I'm finished and the exterior of the box has almost all the finish already gone. I'm left with an extremely solid restore/refresh candidate.

That said, it looks like through OldTuleGuy, I will have a path for a reproduction water decal. Thanks again goes to him.

Thanks to everyone who has responded. You've helped nudge me to the restore/refresh with a new water decal.

When I'm finished I will post some pictures here.

This debate always raises some interest.
Everyone has their opinions, and of course are to be respected. Ultimately it's YOUR box, and if your quality restoration pleases you that's the way to go. I will undoubtedly enjoy seeing it come back to life as I have a similar 'patina tolerance level' to you!
The restoration will become part of the history of the object. These boxes were manufactured in quantity, and there are some perfectly original ones still in existence so in this case a restoration is not destroying a unique historical record. It's not a one off work of art like an old master painting.

This box is very similar condition to one I recently posted in the Blackhawk thread. OTG said "Use it as it is" but when I look at it I think 'Pretty rusty, decal is gone, would look better with new paint'.

 

[Alienbaby17]

Like you I have a great appreciation for the originality of an item. However, I think I’m picking up on the vibe that you are looking for a little encouragement to “pull off the band-aid” and let this one go. I base this on you repeatedly mentioning that you don’t think there will be much of anything left after your minor restoration. Given your meticulous project history and obvious respect and reverence for these items I don’t think anyone is really going to fault you for using a reproduction decal. I definitely can relate to that moment of consideration and hesitation as you think of removing some history, I’ve been there numerous times. That said, I’d let this one go and I would only feel bad about it for a half-second.

Jay

 

[thehorse13]

Like you I have a great appreciation for the originality of an item. However, I think I’m picking up on the vibe that you are looking for a little encouragement to “pull off the band-aid” and let this one go. I base this on you repeatedly mentioning that you don’t think there will be much of anything left after your minor restoration. Given your meticulous project history and obvious respect and reverence for these items I don’t think anyone is really going to fault you for using a reproduction decal. I definitely can relate to that moment of consideration and hesitation as you consider removing some history, I’ve been there numerous times. That said, I’d let this one go and I would only feel bad about it for a half-second.

Jay

If I didn't know any better I'd say that it almost sounds like you know me very well.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Sent pics to jims engine decals. He usually does them pretty quick.

 

[thehorse13]

Sent pics to jims engine decals. He usually does them pretty quick.

That's fantastic news. Thank you again for the assist. I will have one of those on the way here as soon as he is finished making up a batch.

 

[Shelbylex]

Can anybody share how much Jim’s engine charges for decals? I might consider repainting my R series box in the future. Current paint comes off if you wipe it with paper towel... I guess it lived outside in the sun for some time

 

[DadsTools]

In trying to appraise this 'fuzzy' area to restore or not, or even if an artifact has value, I ask myself this:

Is it still what it is, or is it a case of what it once was, but is no more?

To add to this, it sounds like OP is planning on using this for excess artifact storage, not to actually use it as a working tool box.

I lean toward the side of the fence that thinks there's enough of this left to consider that it "still is" and not "was, but is no more." If it's going to store vintage Blackhawk artifacts, then I think the box as it is will go nicely with that application. Which in itself is an act of preservation, not restoration. Maybe add a liner for the bottom to separate the rust from the tools.

Right now it's genuine history.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

These boxes were manufactured in quantity, and there are some perfectly original ones still in existence so in this case a restoration is not destroying a unique historical record.

Great point, J. There are those in the WWII hobby who consider every last shred of canvas, every last lineman's belt, every last rubberized radio bag, and every last welding iron handle to be sacrosanct, and there are those, such as meself, who have no problem cutting those up to make a modern laptop bag (see Pic 1), which elicits more ooh and ahs and questions and dialogue in airports and elsewhere than I have ever gotten out of a Signal Corps Living History Display.

If I didn't know any better I'd say that it almost sounds like you know me very well.

That makes three of us! And well said by Jay, too.

Can anybody share how much Jim’s engine charges for decals?

He's very reasonable! I bought a Snap-on decal for the my K-21 for $13.00, and I didn't realize I was actually getting a set of 3 different decals for that price until they arrived. See Pic 2. Note that I distressed that. It arrived in perfect condition. He sells on eBay. Username jimenginedecals.

 

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

This is the root of my fence sitting. I love original stuff and of course the patina but only up to a point. Once it starts losing the, "feel" then I start considering restoration/refresh. I know that sounds strange but a certain vintage vibe has to be coming from the item and almost like a soul, it can fade and become lost. I hope that makes sense.

The original decal is going to be almost 100% gone by the time I'm finished and the exterior of the box has almost all the finish already gone. I'm left with an extremely solid restore/refresh candidate.

That said, it looks like through OldTuleGuy, I will have a path for a reproduction water decal. Thanks again goes to him.

Thanks to everyone who has responded. You've helped nudge me to the restore/refresh with a new water decal.

When I'm finished I will post some pictures here.

I agree with this school of thought. To me, an item can go past the point where it's worth keeping the original paint/patina. That's the point where it's worth doing a restore/refresh, as you put it, rather than keep it 100% original.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Sweet laptop bag

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Thanks, Otg. I'll post a few more photos in my "Barn Find" thread so I don't bogart Sonny's thread.

 

[Shelbylex]

Thank you, Lugz! It’s very reasonable. I will pul a plug at some point and will either pay for powder coating or professional respray to buy my box another 60-70 years!

 

[thehorse13]

Thanks, Otg. I'll post a few more photos in my "Barn Find" thread so I don't bogart Sonny's thread.

You should have never showed me that laptop bag. It gave me unholy ideas about cutting up the piles of old WWII surplus stuff that I have tucked away in the basement. What a great bag.

As for everything else, feel free to run the thread in any direction that you like. OTG has led me to a decal and made this thread a complete success along with everyone else who pitched in.

 

[thehorse13]

I wasted no time getting started on the rehab of this little tool box. Because of a rare set of events aligning perfectly, I was able to spend about 3 hours working on this project today.

For openers, the all original Nugget 30K set arrived on the scene to assist with the tear down. The 7/16th deep socket and free wheel ratchet made quick work of the handle removal process. All of the handle hardware is still bathing in a nice bowl of undiluted Simple Green.

One of the worst issues that the box had was that when closed, the right side of the lid was 1/2 inch higher than the other side. I'm unsure if someone used this thing as a step stool or if something incredibly heavy fell on it but the lid was tweaked pretty badly. After some body hammer kung-fu, the lid is laser straight again. It does have some metal pitting but I refuse to put body filler in there.

A few body shop 101 techniques were used today, one of which is running a bloc sander along flat areas where you know metal work is needed. You'll immediately see the spots that are lower than the flat surface. All of the little imperfections like this will be hammered out. I must have done a half dozen already but there are a few left that require attention.

As many of you know, the original decal was destine to die in the process. Literally the first hammer hit resulted in over 90% loss of the original. The band-aid has been torn off and I look forward to getting a nice new water decal.

At the end of day one, it may not seem like much but sanding all of the intricate lines of an art deco toolbox is a lot more work than you'd imagine. In the coming days, I want to get the last few spots sanded and the few remaining dings hammered out. From there I have to lay paint on this little guy before the weather gets too cold. In case you have an eagle eye, I plan on leaving the very small round hole that someone drilled in the side. I have a large speeder that may be poking out of that hole. If I didn't have that speeder, I would have welded that hole shut.

As a special prize, I happened to be driving past a garage sale that was closed for the day. A nice lady was throwing out boxes of items so I decided to stop and see if they had any old towels. I always scavenge shop supplies when I can and this was a promising pile.

Instead of finding shop supplies, I found a handful of 1920s Bonney tappet wrenches. Probably half the set is missing but who is going to complain? There are a few Herbrands in there as well. All in all, a perfect fall afternoon.

 

[Shelbylex]

Nice, thehorse 13! Congratulations on the shield logo wrenches for a great price!!! Great save!!!

It honestly bothers me sometimes: people throw away old tools instead of just listing them for free on CL or even just putting them on the sidewalk. So much history is being wasted and lost...

 

[DD T/A]

This is the root of my fence sitting. I love original stuff and of course the patina but only up to a point. Once it starts losing the, "feel" then I start considering restoration/refresh. I know that sounds strange but a certain vintage vibe has to be coming from the item and almost like a soul, it can fade and become lost. I hope that makes sense.

The original decal is going to be almost 100% gone by the time I'm finished and the exterior of the box has almost all the finish already gone. I'm left with an extremely solid restore/refresh candidate.

That said, it looks like through OldTuleGuy, I will have a path for a reproduction water decal. Thanks again goes to him.

Thanks to everyone who has responded. You've helped nudge me to the restore/refresh with a new water decal.

When I'm finished I will post some pictures here.

This is also absolutely true.

You can't drive a HEMI Cuda that is rusted in half, has all broken windows, and the engine is running on 5 cylinders. At some point ya gotta call it a day and just restore the darned thing.


My problem is when you finish an item worth good money, you worked for value and satisfaction.
When you painstakingly restore a toolbox with niche market and therefore little money value, you are doing lots of difficult work using products that aren't free and you're doing it all for satisfaction.

I'm pretty sure you already know all this though.


EDIT: Your progress looks great, I wish I had them metal working skillz. I could really use them with my car work.

 

[thehorse13]

Nice, thehorse 13! Congratulations on the shield logo wrenches for a great price!!! Great save!!!

It honestly bothers me sometimes: people throw away old tools instead of just listing them for free on CL or even just putting them on the sidewalk. So much history is being wasted and lost...

You don't know how right you are. I used to have access to the town dump way back when I was a teenager. The stuff that I pulled out of there would make your jaw drop. Some of the items are worth 5 figures today. I only wish I could have saved more but my parents finally put their foot down.

This is also absolutely true.

You can't drive a HEMI Cuda that is rusted in half, has all broken windows, and the engine is running on 5 cylinders. At some point ya gotta call it a day and just restore the darned thing.


My problem is when you finish an item worth good money, you worked for value and satisfaction.
When you painstakingly restore a toolbox with niche market and therefore little money value, you are doing lots of difficult work using products that aren't free and you're doing it all for satisfaction.

I'm pretty sure you already know all this though.


EDIT: Your progress looks great, I wish I had them metal working skillz. I could really use them with my car work.

Yes, this is an excellent comparison and one that I also happen to have more experience with than I care to admit. Restoring cars is something I'm all too familiar with, especially the sweat equity that goes into doing the job properly.

As for the metal work skills, that just comes with time and suffering. You learn ten things after making one mistake. Multiply that out over decades and you get the idea.

Your post got me thinking. I didn't show what the box lid looked like when I got it vs. now. To the average person it looks underwhelming but to the guys and gals who live this stuff, they know what goes into getting metal back into proper order.

 

[Farmer J.]

I didn't show what the box lid looked like when I got it vs. now. To the average person it looks underwhelming but to the guys and gals who live this stuff, they know what goes into getting metal back into proper order.

Oh yes, that looks very neat. Yours has come out much better than this one my son beat back in to shape with a big hammer in the field!

 

[thehorse13]

It's been a busy day. We have the first coat of paint on the handles and the box. You may notice small circles on each side of the lid. Those are there from the factory so I left them alone. As with all things painted black, you'll see every last imperfection but this little box had many removed. Overall, I'm happy with it and once the new decal is on there I will post the finished results.

In case you're wondering, one more coat of paint will go on before I declare this adventure a success.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Looks good. Nice save!

 

[DD T/A]

It's been a busy day. We have the first coat of paint on the handles and the box. You may notice small circles on each side of the lid. Those are there from the factory so I left them alone. As with all things painted black, you'll see every last imperfection but this little box had many removed. Overall, I'm happy with it and once the new decal is on there I will post the finished results.

In case you're wondering, one more coat of paint will go on before I declare this adventure a success.

By the way, the lid was much less strait than I had noticed, you really had to fix that for it to be usable and not look cattywampus.

 

[thehorse13]

Looks good. Nice save!

Thanks. I hope that Jim gets that decal up on the bay before too long. I'm almost ready for it.

By the way, the lid was much less strait than I had noticed, you really had to fix that for it to be usable and not look cattywampus.

Yea, the poor thing had a lot of dings, dents and the lid was not usable in the shape that it arrived. Fortunately, I'm pretty handy with body hammers and a dolly so this old box will be in service for who knows how many more decades to come. It will outlive me, that's for sure.

 

[thehorse13]

Here is what a $2.25 Blackhawk box looks like after being beaten back into shape. You may notice that the finish is satin black rather than gloss. This is because every example of original Blackhawk paint that I've seen on these boxes looked to me to be a satin black finish.

The final step will be the water decal. Once I acquire one, I will post a set of before and after photos.

 

[Farmer J.]

Wow, that does look good now, well done. The satin black has a nice gentle sheen, and allows just a few traces of the old dents and ripples to show and illustrate that this is an item which has seen some honest service before it needed refinishing. You added a new chapter to it's history.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Sonny,

Looks terrific! Well done.

You may notice that the finish is satin black rather than gloss. This is because every example of original Blackhawk paint that I've seen on these boxes looked to me to be a satin black finish.

With good reason, Mr. Good Intuition. All the older style tools, too! After Blackhawk started using Chrome Vanadium and introduced the Lock-On detachable socket drive system, which was all chromed, they started advertising all the older fixed socket wrenches and Quick Disconnect (Q.D.) era detachable socket drive stuff, all of it carbon steel and finished in black enamel, quite literally, as "Satin Black" wrenches. The entire "Satin Black" line was the legacy stuff in the back of the catalogs after 1930, with all the new "Chief" line stuff in the front.

 

[thehorse13]

Sonny,

Looks terrific! Well done.


With good reason, Mr. Good Intuition. All the older style tools, too! After Blackhawk started using Chrome Vanadium and introduced the Lock-On detachable socket drive system, which was all chromed, they started advertising all the older fixed socket wrenches and Quick Disconnect (Q.D.) era detachable socket drive stuff, all of it carbon steel and finished in black enamel, quite literally, as "Satin Black" wrenches. The entire "Satin Black" line was the legacy stuff in the back of the catalogs after 1930, with all the new "Chief" line stuff in the front.

And there we have it. I should have done the leg work on my own but at least I can say that my eye is still sharp enough to spot the proper color pallet. Thanks for filling in the blanks and for kudos. We're almost done with this little guy!

 

[y'sguy]

Horse!, that came out great! A thorough job indeed. I often use satin black or a satin finish too. One way that I have been taught by show car painters is to use regular finish chassis black as a base color (which is gloss) and then a second coat of clear satin finish. It ends up being satin but has a depth and deep luster to it. And the satin still helps hide my inabilities as a body man!