Can some one look at my welds please?

[Leeboy20]

I have been installing my "pre-bent" roll cage i bought, the only problem, is they sent me the cage for a different year of car, so im having to do some chopping and adding. One of the largest gaps between two bars, i took a shot at doing some fill welds. Theres easy over 1/4 (probably 1/2) of gap, but i went side to side and filled it in. Im wondering if i should go over it again or grind some down and fill more? Any tips? ( i also plan on gusseting the areas) LeeBoy

 

[arkangel06]

first image R/H vertical you have hardly any penatration and a pin hole.

Clean it off and take some more pics would help but from what I see the flat looks alright but the vertical needs to be re welded Grind out as much as you can but leave enough theres no longer a huge gap and reweld. Are you mig welding tig or welding?

 

[Leeboy20]

Mig-ing ..... Thanks for that, but what the heck is a vertical and flat?

 

[arkangel06]

Mig-ing ..... Thanks for that, but what the heck is a vertical and flat?

flat is the weld on the top the vertical is the weld on the side

They mean the position the piece was welded in.

I would really fix your verticals and make them tie in better with the flats.

 

[Leeboy20]

I see what you see. The Flats are more smooth and melted into bot sides. The verticals look more like they are sitting on the surfaces. Should i turn up the heat? Wire speed? And why do i get those tiny lil balls splattered all over? Thanks for the advice

 

[trbomax]

Turn the heat and feed down a bit and slow down.Keep your gun more at 90 deg to the work,those puddles are formed when the nozzel is gets turned "into" the direction of feed at the end. Are you useing co2 or mix? co2 will spatter a lot more. Spray the area w/nozzel spray before you weld,the spatter will not stick.Also,when running downhand,the nozzel should be pointed up a bit so as to push the puddel in place.

 

[arkangel06]

The splatter is from holding the gun too far away from the work piece or having a dirty nozzle.

 

[Leeboy20]

Im using mix. Its a Lincoln 175-T 220 volt. For heat , it has A-E and a speed dial of 1-10. The steel is .095 ERW. I have it set at "C" and 3 1/2 . I think my problem off the bat is i have been welding more on a angle than the gun 90 degrees. That gap was pretty big though. How would i go about filling others such as this?

 

[trbomax]

Im using mix. Its a Lincoln 175-T 220 volt. For heat , it has A-E and a speed dial of 1-10. The steel is .095 ERW. I have it set at "C" and 3 1/2 . I think my problem off the bat is i have been welding more on a angle than the gun 90 degrees. That gap was pretty big though. How would i go about filling others such as this?

I have one of those that I hve on a cart ,mostly for light/medium duty work on smaller pieces. Its an exelent machine . I like it because its light and portable,but will do heavy work when it has too. Good all purpose machine.

Back to your problem though,are you useing 030 or 035 wire? Your setting is pretty good for 035. For filling,turn it down to about b-3. You have to trigger the machine on/off when filling holes,on 3 -4 sec,off 5 sec. The idea is to allow the metal to cool enough that it doesnt cave in on you. Too much heat will just blow it out. After the hole is filled and if there are no craters to clean up ,put a cover pass on it . When setting your feed there is no universal setting for any givenheat . What you want is as much feed as the heat and your speed can deal with without "stubbing" Stubbing is when the arc cannot burn down the feed and the wire shorts out against the base metal,just like with a stick machine.If the feed is too slow,the wire will burn off short and you will get a wop--woop--woop sound ,along with a lot of spatter and mess. Smaller wire will require more feed than larger wire at a given heat setting.

When you are filling what your pic shows,put all the fill passes on the pipe untill it bridges onto the edge all by itself. If you try to deposit any metal on that edge it will blow out worse.I would put a filler pass on that after the gap is bridged,then a cover to make it pretty,but not getting crazy with the heat on the edge untill the cover pass.

 

[Leeboy20]

I have been using .035 wire. When i played with b-3, it doesnt seem to melt into it...Maybe im going too fast. On the weld, i have already done, should i grind it right out to nothing? Or just just the surface down to even steel?

 

[trbomax]

I have been using .035 wire. When i played with b-3, it doesnt seem to melt into it...Maybe im going too fast. On the weld, i have already done, should i grind it right out to nothing? Or just just the surface down to even steel?

Use the edge of the wheel and put a nice fillet in there,dont cut it out.B-3 would work w/030,keep useing 035,better for gp use.

edit) I'm assumeing you have a small grinder.Use a wheel that the edges are rounded off and take the guard off so you can get in there.

 

[porphyre]

Is that the A-pillar?? I'm sorry, man, that is not safe. I wouldn't race a car with a cage that fit that poorly. You REALLY REALLY REALLY need to get a new drop bar that's cut to fit that angle correctly. Especially on what looks to be a right-front A-pillar. I assume that's a circle track car and I'm sure you know the right side takes a beating on a Saturday night.

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

Once you have it fitting better, you REALLY need to bevel the pipe to get full penetration of the base metal. You can have a gap but if you do, you should put a backer bar on it to obtain full strength of the joint.

 

[nate379]

What does the settings on the door say?

I have a 175-plus and I never have run it low like it seems you are doing. Even car sheetmetal E or F (goes to J I think)

 

[Spareparts]

Porphyre is correct that is to big of a gap for a roll cage, you should only have to make one pass for them joints. If you don't replace the tube al least put some gussets in there, I would recomment some 1" tubes at a 45 degree on both sides and make them fit tight, but I would also recommend replacement. If that joint breaks the cage is coming DOWN.

 

[trbomax]

I understand that this is only 095 wall,but it is extreemly rare that any pipe or tubeing is joined with one pass ,maybe exhaust pipe. 3 to 5 passes are common depending on the wall thickness.Same for flats or fillets ,multiple passes are a standard in the trade.Not trying to start a pi&%#ng match,but if that cage has to be inspected or certified ,then yes,all the joints should be fishmouthed and beveld,no gaps,then tig welded.

 

[Leeboy20]

So, i ground off the weld a bit. Should i grind more? Or fill it up? Also, heres my machine, what settings would you think to weld this ?

 

[tonydanzah]

problem is your using a lincoln

 

[trbomax]

So, i ground off the weld a bit. Should i grind more? Or fill it up? Also, heres my machine, what settings would you think to weld this ?

As far as the grinding goes,you will get much better results useing a 4 or 5 inch flexible disk and pad.,40 or 60 grit. A flexible disk and backer wont leave the flatspots,and makes it easier to blend.

Different people and styles,different settings I always liked to get in close with the torch and slow down as opposed to cranking up the heat and raceing accross the joint.I prefer to stack it as if it were tig'ed,others lay it out like caulk.I also did it for a living for 40 + yrs and never really had any ******* about what i did............................

 

[Griff93]

As others have mentioned, make the joint fit better first. You'll never get the proper strength by just filling in the gap. You should leave the reinforcement of the weld after you are done. Don't grind it off. If you can't/won't replace the tubes you should run some gussets. Really you should run them anyway.

 

[Leeboy20]

How bout if i do this?

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

The additional pipe will help but this is your life you are talking about. Adding more steel with badly fitting joints and that is bubble gummed in place is not the way to go. Can you get anyone local to you that can help with this project? You are not welding in body panels or adding an exhaust system.

This is a safety issue and needs to be right. It is not the place to learn how to weld.

 

[e-tek]

Is that .120 DOM tubing? Couldn't see that info in your posts....if so, you gotta have your machine up around E and maybe a 6-7 speed. Move your gun slowly back and forth while moving along weld plane to get that stacked look. You should practice on a scrap piece of the same tubing until you can see your weld become well-fused.

Here's a good source of info: http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/articles/index.php?page=article96.html

 

[e-tek]

The additional pipe will help but this is your life you are talking about. Adding more steel with badly fitting joints and that is bubble gummed in place is not the way to go. Can you get anyone local to you that can help with this project? You are not welding in body panels or adding an exhaust system.

This is a safety issue and needs to be right. It is not the place to learn how to weld.

I've said it before and I'll say it again....there's NO REASON not to learn to weld here - or anywhere for that matter. Once you take some practice runs and get good penetration, plus follow some decent tutorials (magazines, 'net, asking on forums like you have) most anyone can weld up a decent roll cage! The cage will get inspected and if it passes, it meets the minimum requirements. I welded my first cage and seen MANY other guys do it too.

And while not wanting to ruffle "chicken littles" feathers (the sky is NOT falling...), it is EXCEEDING unlikely you are truly playing with your life here....while the likelihood of needing to rely on your cage is unlikley, the likelihod of it failing catastrophically is even moreso. Sorry, that's how I see it, because that's what the stats say.

Don't let anyone say you shouldn't learn to weld, or weld your own cage. Lots have. Lots will.

 

[Leeboy20]

Heres one of my tube to frame welds..I had it on E-7

 

[nate379]

There you go. Whatever setting you have there is what you need to be running.

As far as the gaps, I'd run a bead to fill the gap and then run another bead over the top of it. Root/cover pass I guess you'd call it? Dunno, not a pro welder.

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

e-tec,

This is one place that we just agree to disagree. I deal with structural welds on some fairly large projects that are done to high standards. At the least they are visually inspected with a good percentage being mag particle or UV dye tested. The critical welds must pass ultrasonic or radiographic testing. In this case, the pipe should fit well and be beveled to obtain a 45 degree bevel. It will not be a full penetration weld but can be a pre qualified partial pen weld. To be a pre-qualified full pen weld, you must either have a backer bar with a root opening or a backer weld that is arc gouged to obtain good base metal. neither one of those can be done in this case.

With this being thin wall tubing, it is not as critical and will work fine without the steps required for thicker material. There is still the safety issue involved however, and even though the odds are in his favor, the fact remains that he might need to depend on this cage for his life. A lot depends on what he is doing with it.

A drag racer might never have a crash in their entire career while a dirt tracker will have at least 2 or 3 in a season. A rock crawler will take a hit on the cage every time they go out. Poor welds might be able to take a hit, maybe even two but they will fail if pushed where a good quality weld will not. I don't have anything against someone learning how to weld, far from it, but I do not think that a roll cage is the appropriate place to learn the techniques required. Typical welds on a cage include down hand, uphill, downhill and overhead. That is a lot of new positions to learn if you have never done them before.

The last weld that he posted (cage to frame weld) looks OK but is also in the easiest position to weld in (down hand). If his weld in the other positions looked similar, I would still have a problem with the pipe fitment but would let it go due to the weld quality. In this case, both items are an issue and at least one of them should be corrected.

 

[Alcohol]

Go to www.nighthawkracecars.com under photos,,there are many pics. of various bends and welds to look at. You just need more welding time,,,have patience,,what you have done is really not all that bad.

 

[speed bump]

Is that .120 DOM tubing? Couldn't see that info in your posts....if so, you gotta have your machine up around E and maybe a 6-7 speed. Move your gun slowly back and forth while moving along weld plane to get that stacked look. You should practice on a scrap piece of the same tubing until you can see your weld become well-fused.

Here's a good source of info: http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/articles/index.php?page=article96.html

You can look at the first picture and figure out its HREW (not that it matters whether it Drawn over Mandrel or rolled and electrically welded) and he state it 0.095.

From the ground picture you can see that you arent tieing into both sides of the pipe well.

Out of curiousity if you run you finger over your beads how does it feel? Flat or concave and if concave which direction is it?

To the OP: Not knowing your level of welding knowledge this book may go slightly over your head in certain areas but it appears to explain standard pipe welding pretty well. Make sure you read the stuff on joint preparation and fitting pipe.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ci...&resnum=5&ved=0CCUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[porphyre]

e-tec,
[snip]
A drag racer might never have a crash in their entire career while a dirt tracker will have at least 2 or 3 in a season. A rock crawler will take a hit on the cage every time they go out. Poor welds might be able to take a hit, maybe even two but they will fail if pushed where a good quality weld will not. I don't have anything against someone learning how to weld, far from it, but I do not think that a roll cage is the appropriate place to learn the techniques required. Typical welds on a cage include down hand, uphill, downhill and overhead. That is a lot of new positions to learn if you have never done them before.

This is the point that needs to be taken away from this discussion. I think it's fair to assume the threadstarter is not working on a multimillion dollar NASCAR stocker. The roll cage he's welding is probably going to be used for many many years.

I'm most worried about the fitment of the tubes. Even if a weld fails or partially fails, a well fitted tube can still provide some small protection by getting jammed into it's location by whatever impact broke the weld. A poorly fitted tube isn't going to do that.

Good luck!

 

[sporkedtospec]

Heres one of my tube to frame welds..I had it on E-7

This picture doesn't look like your prepping/cleaning the joint prior to running the bead?
The metal needs to be clean and free of any contaminants (paint, rust, whatever) that could be mixed in the puddle. At the very least use a wire brush.

 

[e-tek]

There's some really good info in this thread.

The reason I asked if it was DOM is because that is the only tubing I think should be used for cages.

 

[arkangel06]

Heres one of my tube to frame welds..I had it on E-7

Try not to start and stop as much.

 

[e-tek]

Heres one of my tube to frame welds..I had it on E-7

As previously noted, this is a nice weld. E-7 is the sweet-spot. You can tell it has good penetration and the HAF (heat affected zone) is even. If you can get the rest to look like this (also as noted: harder to do upside down!), you're golden!

 

[p_mori7]

The angle and curvature need to be better scribed together to eliminate that large gap. You can't weld into thin air. Use a pencil to scribe the curve of the piece you are mating to onto the cut piece. Grind away to the line. Your gap will be much smaller.

While visiting my uncle's farm several years ago, he showed me a large crack on one of the 'arms' for the loader on his tractor...he couldn't get a weld to hold there, he tried 'covering the gap' with multiple passes...would alway break again...so I ground it out clean, pounded a thick nail lengthwise into the gap, and welded everything solid. A McGyverized field fix for sure, but it has never come apart.

I would for sure put a gusset over the top of that angle joint if you can't shorten the material.

Tubing to frame weld looks better, personally I would probably gusset that as well.

Clean all parts down to bare metal before attempting to weld.

Keep your ground clamp close to where you are welding, also clean the area for the ground.

Apply 2 or 3 tack welds first, clean 'em off, check placement & fitment, if all good zap it all the way around and take your time.

Good Luck with your project !

 

[v7guy]

I can't really add much here, pretty much everything that can be said has been.
The gaps need to be closed up, make sure you thoroughly clean the joints, bevel the end of the fishmouths a bit. tack it and weld it in.

I generally like to waste some metal by welding vertical or on my back (especially if it's been awhile) just so I can become reacquainted with the position. there are sometimes I won't weld for a month or more though. maybe you should take a few minutes and practice a bit more before you put the cage together.

 

[bkg]

Is that the A-pillar?? I'm sorry, man, that is not safe. I wouldn't race a car with a cage that fit that poorly. You REALLY REALLY REALLY need to get a new drop bar that's cut to fit that angle correctly. Especially on what looks to be a right-front A-pillar. I assume that's a circle track car and I'm sure you know the right side takes a beating on a Saturday night.

If there's any gap, it makes no difference how good someone is at welding, the cage is worthless. I agree with prophyre...

The only way to fix this cage is to throw it away. Sorry it sounds harsh... your life isn't worth being stubborn over a cage.

 

[bkg]

There's some really good info in this thread.

The reason I asked if it was DOM is because that is the only tubing I think should be used for cages.

or Chro-Mo.

 

[ironheadtom]

I do have some stock car experience, and have been watching this thread a bit. My 2 cents is this.... no matter what the application, that cage is a piece of safety equipment. I've seen some really bad accidents (on and off road) where the cage saved someone's ***. I agree with the guys that say this is not the place to learn. I don't mean to be rude or offensive at all, but if it was me, I'd cut that thing out and throw it away and let someone experienced do it. I also agree that the parts need to fit right first. I know it's not what you want to hear, but there it is. Also, if you were doing any type of organized racing, you would never get through tech, anyway.

 

[Leeboy20]

Heres a question. What about if i cut the section out where the bad fit is and sleeve it with 1 1/2 tubing, drill it and add the 1 3/4 back over it and weld it up and make it a good fit? I heard that properly sleeved tubing is stronger than the stock tubing? Theres only really 2 bad fits, and if i could sleeve them, im in business without throwing the cage away..