Leviton panels and breakers

[AntonLargiader]

Has anyone used them? I haven't seen them mentioned here at all but they are certainly out there in the stores. Home Depot sells them but there is also a lot of stuff on eBay.

Aside from the styling, the big features seem to be the full plug-on design, availability of hydraulic/magnetic trip, and the availability of smart breakers (which can be controlled and monitored via an app).

The cost isn't that different than the others.

1-pole DF breaker - $40 and up
1-pole standard breaker - $7 and up
2-pole standard breaker - $18 and up
GFCI 2-pole - $76

And the load center costs are maybe a bit higher but nothing major.

Hydraulic trip is apparently a cold-weather thing. Eaton makes HT breakers but I'm not sure they are in the US.

Smart breakers are obviously going to be a lot more expensive, but that's only if you want them.

Full plug-on sounds cool. Seems to be an installation time saver, but I can see modifying circuits being a bit easier also. Not a big deal; my breaker-moving time has very little value to economize.

So, some different features at a similar cost to the other products that are out there. I don't know the construction details like bus material and plating.

https://www.leviton.com/en/products/residential/load-centers

Any experience?

 

[Norcal]

I would be worried they go away like the SQ D Trillaint, then all one has is a albatross.

 

[nadogail]

As a matter caution I would choose Seimens or Square D, just because they are brands I trust.

 

[jbwilkins]

Square D has a plug on natural now too, not getting a lot of use due to cost..

 

[AntonLargiader]

Square D has a plug on natural now too, not getting a lot of use due to cost..

They’ve had PON for a while in Homeline. Cleans things up a lot. I have one of those panels. But the Leviton system is full plug on. Hot and neutral. Wire the panel and then just add the breaker. Wires don’t come out when you remove a breaker.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

havent seen this panel before.

siemens also has PON now

 

[AntonLargiader]

Trilliant... that was an interesting read. Thanks for pointing that out; I don't think I'd run across that before.

Trust, brand reputation, obviously these are the barriers to entry for everyone. Leviton's been around a while and is pretty well respected, but they are new to this market segment and sure, I guess they could pack up and quit.

The smart breakers are probably the killer feature. Without them, it would just be a prettier panel than the others with slightly different (simpler) wiring and the availability of hydraulic trip which is sort of a niche thing as relatively few panels are mounted outdoors in severe conditions. There's a market for smart stuff, though, and energy monitoring is largely an unmet need IMO. Having it out of the box will be attractive to some people (but it will be expensive up front). I can see landlords appreciating this in rental units. Knowing if the sump pump isn't running, the well hasn't shut off in four days, the basement freezer GFCI is tripped... nothing wrong with that. Shut the well off* from your vacation house.

My limited personal experience with Leviton's smart stuff wasn't so good, but that was a few years ago.

Copper buss, according to their video.

Load centers themselves are a bit pricier than I realized at first, as the covers are sold separately (option of window or not). For a 20-space, it's $125-ish without a window and $175-ish with. But that's peanuts if someone is going to load it up with smart breakers at $75~90 a pop.

* EDIT: Originally said "Reset the GFCI" but you can't reset breakers remotely.

I would be worried they go away like the SQ D Trillaint, then all one has is a albatross.

As a matter caution I would choose Seimens or Square D, just because they are brands I trust.

 

[Norcal]

T&B bought the Challenger brand from Eaton and were selling T&B breakers as UL classified for all makes, then the whole product line disappeared, better to stick to known makes, IMHO.

 

[Jmellc]

I don’t recall seeing Leviton breakers. I like Square D mostly. QO if one can afford it, Homeline is good too. Eaton BR is fairly flood for a little less money. Eaton CH, tan handles, rates up there with QO, IMHO, but is pricey.

GE is today’s junk brand. I used to like Siemens but got a couple of raw deals from them. I only use them now when I have to.

I wouldn’t want to mess with Leviton. They could vanish like T&B did.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I don’t recall seeing Leviton breakers. I like Square D mostly. QO if one can afford it, Homeline is good too. Eaton BR is fairly flood for a little less money. Eaton CH, tan handles, rates up there with QO, IMHO, but is pricey.

GE is today’s junk brand. I used to like Siemens but got a couple of raw deals from them. I only use them now when I have to.

I wouldn’t want to mess with Leviton. They could vanish like T&B did.

Actually, Eaton BR is junk compared to GE. Remember, the BR line came from Bryant breakers and can be compared to Zinsco in terms of durability and functionality.

BR is below GE....

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

The smart breakers are probably the killer feature. Without them, it would just be a prettier panel than the others with slightly different (simpler) wiring and the availability of hydraulic trip which is sort of a niche thing as relatively few panels are mounted outdoors in severe conditions. There's a market for smart stuff, though, and energy monitoring is largely an unmet need IMO. Having it out of the box will be attractive to some people (but it will be expensive up front). I can see landlords appreciating this in rental units. Knowing if the sump pump isn't running, the well hasn't shut off in four days, the basement freezer GFCI is tripped... nothing wrong with that. Shut the well off* from your vacation house.

Seems more like a gimmick in most cases. How many homeowners want this and are able to set it up? How many will continue to use it?

 

[AntonLargiader]

Wanting it? If it's pitched right, owners will want it. This is the age of Smart Things. How many people want power monitoring like Sense or Neurio? This is a way they can have it.

For new construction, which will be the overwhelming share of sales, there will be nothing to set up for the homeowner. He will load the app, let it discover the breakers, and that's all. Maybe configure some alarms if he's super into it. The builder (or electrician) can watch it for the first few weeks after CO, too, although I'm sure all of you are convinced you would never do that. And it will probably hardly ever get actually used after that in that sort of diagnostic way, but it can send alerts and so forth if there's a problem.

So, gimmick, maybe that's in the eye of the beholder.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

No way will those be used for track homes (too expensive), which are the majority of new housing construction in california.

maybe some custom homes will get them...

 

[stickshift]

Wanting it? If it's pitched right, owners will want it. This is the age of Smart Things. How many people want power monitoring like Sense or Neurio? This is a way they can have it.

For new construction, which will be the overwhelming share of sales, there will be nothing to set up for the homeowner. He will load the app, let it discover the breakers, and that's all. Maybe configure some alarms if he's super into it. The builder (or electrician) can watch it for the first few weeks after CO, too, although I'm sure all of you are convinced you would never do that. And it will probably hardly ever get actually used after that in that sort of diagnostic way, but it can send alerts and so forth if there's a problem.

So, gimmick, maybe that's in the eye of the beholder.

Given that people are willing to drop a couple of hundred dollars on aftermarket monitors and turn their panels into a rat's nest of CTs and wires, it seems to me there is a market for smart monitoring built right into the panel.

On that topic, I can't believe the PoCos have moved so slowly on this and allowed all these energy monitoring companies to gain market share. Seems to me PoCos could dominate this market - they have the huge built-in advantage of having a meter at everyone's house.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Given that people are willing to drop a couple of hundred dollars on aftermarket monitors and turn their panels into a rat's nest of CTs and wires, it seems to me there is a market for smart monitoring built right into the panel.

On that topic, I can't believe the PoCos have moved so slowly on this and allowed all these energy monitoring companies to gain market share. Seems to me PoCos could dominate this market - they have the huge built-in advantage of having a meter at everyone's house.

One huge glaring issue with that- NETWORK SECURITY. Most PoCo equipment is either NOT exposed to the internet or behind double firewalls and adaptive security appliances making monitoring data hard to get to the customer.

 

[brewchief]

I can see some want for a smart breaker, why not just build one that fits an existing panel? Having a breaker that could monitor usage and send an alert if tripped would be nice but I really only see the need in certain circuits.

Power company in my area has a device that will read power consumption via the smart meter in real time, costs a couple bucks a month.

Sent from my SM-T510 using Tapatalk

 

[Norcal]

Actually, Eaton BR is junk compared to GE. Remember, the BR line came from Bryant breakers and can be compared to Zinsco in terms of durability and functionality.

BR is below GE....

The BR interiors are a Challenger design,& used Zinsco mains at one time, above 125A, hence one the reasons I call them "Zinsco II", the old Bryant interiors were even more funky.

 

[slow]

There are some cool design elements of these panels, I believe they will be successful. I like the concept of plig on breakers and built in smart monitoring per circuit

 

[AntonLargiader]

I can see some want for a smart breaker, why not just build one that fits an existing panel?

Well, Leviton didn't have an existing panel to be compatible with and this is something they wanted to do, so they did it on their own terms (with the full plug-on and enhanced appearance). Now that you mention it, though, I am a bit surprised that SD or Eaton hasn't come out with smart breakers. But Leviton has been in the Smart space for a while and the others haven't AFAIK.

@slow, I agree... the full plug-on is neat. Given the choice, I think I would prefer to fully wire the panel without breakers every time.

 

[reader2580]

One huge glaring issue with that- NETWORK SECURITY. Most PoCo equipment is either NOT exposed to the internet or behind double firewalls and adaptive security appliances making monitoring data hard to get to the customer.

There are certainly secure ways to move that data from the highly secure network to customer facing servers.

 

[u2slow]

Home Depot pushes a LOT of Leviton product already, so they likely fetch better margins on it that competing brands.

Not for me thanks. I have more traditional/industrial tastes in electrical supplies. Basic & bulletproof... hopefully inexpensive.

 

[Jmellc]

Actually, Eaton BR is junk compared to GE. Remember, the BR line came from Bryant breakers and can be compared to Zinsco in terms of durability and functionality.

BR is below GE....

Not in my experience. I’ve had GE breakers go bad in a few days, sometimes several from the same box. I’ve had their neutral & ground bars break when forming #4 or 6 wire to them. I give GE bottom rating. BR isn’t my favorite but I do think they are better than GE, at least in my experience. But things can change too. It’s been awhile since I worked with them. Last couple of years, I have worked sites with mostly Square D. I now work in a factory with mostly Square D & some Siemens. We replace far more Siemens than Square D.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Home Depot pushes a LOT of Leviton product already, so they likely fetch better margins on it that competing brands.

Not for me thanks. I have more traditional/industrial tastes in electrical supplies. Basic & bulletproof... hopefully inexpensive.

hmmm

my home depots dont stock these leviton panels and never have... they must be behind...

Not in my experience. I’ve had GE breakers go bad in a few days, sometimes several from the same box. I’ve had their neutral & ground bars break when forming #4 or 6 wire to them. I give GE bottom rating. BR isn’t my favorite but I do think they are better than GE, at least in my experience. But things can change too. It’s been awhile since I worked with them. Last couple of years, I have worked sites with mostly Square D. I now work in a factory with mostly Square D & some Siemens. We replace far more Siemens than Square D.

Go bad in what way?

Ive worked on numerous GE panels, both newer and older and never see the kind of failures I see on Eaton BRs- mainly burned up breakers right at the bus stabs... the bryant breakers were the same...

 

[stickshift]

There are certainly secure ways to move that data from the highly secure network to customer facing servers.

Exactly. It's a software problem.

 

[Norcal]

Most residential panels in CA are meter/mains installed outdoors, so no demand for the Leviton panels.

 

[AntonLargiader]

I don't see how that would change the demand. If anything, the hydraulic trip breakers are aimed at uses other than indoor residential, and the copper buss bar are well suited to outdoor use. The energy monitoring and other features are just as valid outdoors as indoors.

It's not just an interior residential product. They have solar-ready meter pans and GFPE breakers.

 

[Jmellc]

hmmm

my home depots dont stock these leviton panels and never have... they must be behind...



Go bad in what way?

Ive worked on numerous GE panels, both newer and older and never see the kind of failures I see on Eaton BRs- mainly burned up breakers right at the bus stabs... the bryant breakers were the same...

Nuisance tripping with light loads, sometimes tripping when energized.

Yes, I have seen some of your issue with BR, but have seen it with Siemens & GE as well.

 

[AntonLargiader]

my home depots dont stock these leviton panels and never have... they must be behind...

I don't think my local one stocks the stuff either.

It was only released in maybe 2019 so I don't know who carries it in stock. Most of the stuff is on Leviton's Amazon store (cheaper than their official online store) and there's also Pacific Coast Breaker listing most items for less than the Leviton Amazon store. But most supply houses aren't going to show up in online searches.

 

[reader2580]

There seems to be a lot of hate for BR breakers. I hope I have nothing to worry about as I just bought an Enphase solar combiner that uses BR breakers.

One crazy thing about this combiner is Enphase states you can use Eaton BR210, BR215, or BR220 model breakers, but Enphase also sells the breakers. The breakers from Enphase are over $100 each, but you can buy the breakers at a big box store for about $10 each.

 

[Norcal]

There seems to be a lot of hate for BR breakers. I hope I have nothing to worry about as I just bought an Enphase solar combiner that uses BR breakers.

One crazy thing about this combiner is Enphase states you can use Eaton BR210, BR215, or BR220 model breakers, but Enphase also sells the breakers. The breakers from Enphase are over $100 each, but you can buy the breakers at a big box store for about $10 each.

In every product category there has to be someone at the bottom, Eaton BR is it in the residential/light commercial panels, just like a Yugo in automobiles.

 

[reader2580]

In every product category there has to be someone at the bottom, Eaton BR is it in the residential/light commercial panels, just like a Yugo in automobiles.

Does being at the bottom of the half dozen or so current breaker manufacturers mean it is a bad product to be avoided at all costs? I don't think it is like Federal Pacific where just about home inspector would recommend a new panel.

I personally have three Siemens panels in my house and garage. A big part of why I stick with Siemens is because I had an ITE Gould panel in my house at purchase time and bought a bunch of Siemens AFCI breakers for that panel. I replaced the ITE Gould panel about six weeks ago and stuck with Siemens to reuse the breakers. I buy only the Siemens panels with copper bus.

 

[u2slow]

The Home Depot website is full of the Leviton panels
https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/ca...eaker-panels/breaker-panels/f/leviton/qrd-uv5

There seems to be a lot of hate for BR breakers.

I suspect the problems (and hate) stem from original Westinghouse design/manufacture. The bus itself is very similar on other brands of panel. It would really, really surprise me if modern breakers manufactured for those panels carry over the original Westinghouse problems.

 

[American Locomotive]

Just saw these Leviton panels for the first time at HD today. They seem pretty neat, with cool features. I like the completely "wire-less" breakers that just plug-in. Makes making changes easier and safer. The "Smart" breakers are obviously nifty for those really interested in monitoring their energy, although they apparently require a $200 base-station module to actually communicate with your network.

My main concerns were with price (they're pretty proud of it), and Leviton's long-term commitment to the product line.

I'll also give them that the breakers are very pretty. Much less industrial looking than typical Square D or Siemens stuff

 

[beemerphile]

I'm going to give them a go on my new house build. I already have the Leviton panel for my shop. Yeah, I didn't know when I bought the "reasonably priced" panel that it did not include the cover. After that, not so economical. Breaker pricing is all screwy now anyway thanks to AFCI. We are downsizing from big house, big shop, 40 acres to little house, little shop, 3 acres compliments of two heart attacks on my part and a number of health issues for my wife. I'm trying to upgrade the elegance and use experience along with the downsize so that it nets out positive in quality of life. I can't hide the panel in the new house. I'm gonna be looking at it. Might as well like it - plus the nerd factor.

 

[Norcal]

Buy plenty of extra breakers if the whole line takes a **** you’ll be sitting pretty instead of paying through the nose for breakers like the now defunct SQ D Trillaint line.

 

[beemerphile]

It is my nature to assemble lifetime spares. I have thought of finding a way to neatly and legally lay in some wiring slack in case I have to do a panel replacement later - a couple of extra turns inside an adjacent wall panel that could be unfastened and brought into the panel space. Nothing in the code says I have to take the shortest path to the panel. The key would be making the extra length fairly easy to access. In my case the backside wall of the panel will be inside a laundry alcove.

 

[cmandp]

I like the look of these Leviton panels but after dealing with a Square D Trilliant panel I'm hesitant. At least the enclosure is metal and has stand wire entry holes that break away.

And beemerphile I'm with you on providing extra slack. I also do to try and accommodate last second changes or use changes later.

 

[andyvh1959]

Really? Smart breakers controlled by an app? App controlled toilets can't be far behind (Alexa, flush). I must an old school luddite as I see no reason or benefit for app controlled breakers. Smart phones are already way too intrusive into our daily lives and only getting worse.

Alexa is everywhere: Kohler’s smart toilet brings voice assistant into bathrooms

Your toilet just might have answers to your most pressing questions -- if you own the Kohler Numi 2.0 Intelligent Toilet. The toilet with Alexa built right into will be on display at CES 2019.

www.digitaltrends.com

 

[rlitman]

Really? Smart breakers controlled by an app? App controlled toilets can't be far behind. I must an old school luddite as I see no reason or benefit to app controlled breakers. Smart phones are already way too intrusive into our daily lives and only getting worse.

Ok, here's somewhere I could use it. I have an outlet beside an exterior stairwell that I plug snow melting mats into. I would love for a breaker that I can remotely control to turn on during snow conditions. I replicated that functionality by attaching a RIB relay to my panel, and having it control the power feeding that outlet, and controlling it via a WiFi controlled relay (I don't trust these cheap imported devices to control line voltage for a 20A circuit; they're really just made for lamps, so I used a properly rated relay for the current switching).

I would love remote access to the breaker controlling my compressor.