General Geoff
Well-known member
You were using a 24 tooth ratchet? Lower?
Even a 24 tooth ratchet would have half the swing arc of a 12 point socket on a fixed head, repositioning one point after every swing.
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For mechanics: 6 point and 12 point sockets
- Thread starter guitarbutt
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You were using a 24 tooth ratchet? Lower?
Even a 24 tooth ratchet would have half the swing arc of a 12 point socket on a fixed head, repositioning one point after every swing.
alexb2000
Well-known member
I had to look it up, the Snapon L872 has 32 teeth. Also important is the pinion yoke moves as well, so the swing of the ratchet isn't 100% because some is lost in the slop of the pinion yoke holder.
I expect my experience is the reason why most all the 3/4 drive chrome stuff is 12 point vs. 6.
Wrench97
Well-known member
Larger sizes usually fair better in 12pt because the contact area is larger.
I guess you did the pinion seal on the ground?
It's not normally a issue on a lift and I've used a pipe wrench on the yoke to hold it tight on the one or two I did for buddies on the ground.
On one I did have him move the stands from under the diff housing to the frame and jack it as high as the stands would go front and rear.
Mechanical Noise
Well-known member
I expect the reason is that 12 point uses less tool steel and works adequately.
Early carbon steel sockets were usually 6 point, the shift to 12 point came at the same time manufacturers started using chrome vanadium.
alexb2000
Well-known member
I did this one on the ground because Ford is/was 30 days out for some diff parts (COVID) and I didn't want it stuck on the lift. I ended up shipping in a Yukon kit because no one can have their truck down that long.
I used some really big jack stands and dropped the spare. I could sit under there comfortably. I'll actually do it this way going forward if there is any doubt on parts.
I had to machine a pinion holder for this one. I have an actual pinion holder tool, but it wasn't large enough for this bolt pattern.
seber
Well-known member
Somewhere in the outer reaches of my boxes there is a set of 12 point sockets. I haven't seen them in years. I certainly don't miss them.
General Geoff
Well-known member
Yeah but once you finish with one pull, you swing the ratchet back as far as it goes and just hold the socket clockwise with your fingers so it doesn't move back with the ratchet, until the pawl catches another tooth. A 32 tooth ratchet should have an 11.25 degree swing arc between teeth. With a 4 foot radius arm that translates to roughly 9.375 inches of swing arc between teeth. I can't imagine that would be too far to swing a ratchet under a truck that you have enough room to sit under.
The bigger the size, the less relative slop there is between the facets and the fastener flats. 12 point is also much more common in 1/2" than it is in 3/8" drive, and 12 point 1/4" drive is very unusual.
16again
Well-known member
Been using 6 points for years without issue. If I should find the need for a 12 point, I will purchase as needed.
Don1357
Well-known member
Sounds like you could use stronger breaker bars
My heavy duty breaker bar for 250+ ft pound axle and flywheel nuts has a 3/4" head. I have used it to break axle nuts with a 4' cheater bar. At that distance my 210 body weigh translates to 840 foot pound pressure, and that's dead weight before i start jumping on it. Why would I want to risk a fine ratchet wrench on that?
Then again if you don't have anything that exceeds 80 foot pound when freshly torqued, you could probably get away with ratchet wrenches.
General Geoff
Well-known member
Sounds like you could use stronger breaker bars
nah I have a 3/4" drive 40" breaker bar that I don't think I'll ever break
I use a rattle gun for axle nuts, or really anywhere that I can fit it!
I need a minimum of 150 just to torque the wheel nuts on two of my vehicles, to say nothing about the honda crank bolts I've removed over the years
(btw I use a ratchet adapter on a fixed beam wrench for torquing said wheel nuts to 150)
Don1357
Well-known member
I have sheared a 1/2" adapter on my 3/4" breaker bar while standing about 4 feet into an extension pipe. It cost me an adapter, not the bar itself. Chances are I would have sheared the square drive itself off a ratchet wrench. According to the last registration on the car that axle nut was last torqued during the Nixon administration. I managed to get it out so I didn't end up having to crack the drum in two. The joys of working on vintage stuff...
Again, if your hobbies and work don't encounter these sorts of problems I'm sure a good ratchet wrench will do for most. Me having a good set of breaker bars I rather use them than risk a ratchet.
2ndGearRubber
Well-known member
Why not just get an impact gun at that point? I have removed a couple axle nuts with hand tools, even a honda crank bolt. But why? Go buy a super electric impact or a top notch pneumatic setup and save your back.
In a shop setting, I only use big breaker bars for things that are stupid tight but also beyond corroded. The bar helps me control tightening/loosening to help grind the rust out of the threads, and I only need one hand, as the other is holding a torch.
840ft/lbs worth of force is much easier applied to glowing components.
In a shop setting, I only use big breaker bars for things that are stupid tight but also beyond corroded. The bar helps me control tightening/loosening to help grind the rust out of the threads, and I only need one hand, as the other is holding a torch.
840ft/lbs worth of force is much easier applied to glowing components.
Don1357
Well-known member
In the good old days I didn't have access to enough air. Nowadays I have a torque multiplier for them big nuts, it does 9-to-1 ratio so a mere 30 pounds on the tool turns into 270 pounds on the nut. Every time I have to use it it makes me happy.
Thescreensavers
Member
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- Dec 31, 2017
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- 17
When I first started wrenching I had no idea 6pt or 12pt existed, I figured that out once I rounded off a nut with a 12pt . I have purchased some socket sets that came with 12pts deals which come with points but, I hardly use them unless Im in a tight spot.
. I have purchased some socket sets that came with 12pts deals which come with points but, I hardly use them unless Im in a tight spot.nbpt100
Well-known member
With prices coming down and torque ratings going up a good electric impact is a must for any shade tree mechanic. IMHO. Ditch the air lines and high CFM compressors. The only issue at times can be access. Some bolts are not easy to access with an impact. In that case you are stuck.
Is it my gut feeling or is there some truth behind the sense that a large breaker bar can break off a stubborn bolt while a carefully used impact will get the bolt or nut off with out breaking anything. I don't know this for a fact but I have this as a gut feeling from a few years of wrenching experience. Does the impact action break up the rust better? sorry i'm a bit off of the main topic here.
In my early wrenching days I was told that 6 points were "stronger" and less liable to slip and that's why impacts sockets were 6 point. I liked the fancy enhanced broaching profiles and those were only on 12 points back then. Now even 6 points have fancy broaching.
On smaller sockets - typically 1/4" drive stuff - I've found 6 points slip less. (Like for cabinet screws). Bigger then say 7/16" I switch to 12 point.
So,
I tell people who ask me to use what they've got unless they're having a problem.
On smaller sockets - typically 1/4" drive stuff - I've found 6 points slip less. (Like for cabinet screws). Bigger then say 7/16" I switch to 12 point.
So,
I tell people who ask me to use what they've got unless they're having a problem.General Geoff
Well-known member
Oftentimes yes, the percussion of the impact action can break a fastener loose where a steadily applied high torque from a breaker or ratchet may twist the head off the same bolt.
Old Steamer
Well-known member
Over the years I've rotated all my 12-points out for 6-points. I still have the 12-point sockets but seldom use them.
Yep I’ve preferred 6pt for years, especially here in the rust belt. That said I do have a set of 12pt metrics for the few times I run into them...although last time I couldn’t find them and ended up buying another set. When I was cleaning up I found the original set and gave the new ones to my son. And to go real old school I have a set of 8pts around somewhere too.
logical
Well-known member
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nbpt100
Well-known member
I have done the same for the most part.
I am still keeping my 12pt. You never know when they will be of use.
When I bought my 1st socket set from Sears back in the mid 80's most of the sockets in there were 12PT. Even some of the deep sockets. At the time I did not know any better but figured things out after I made some problems worse.
Anyone expecting do good variety of work especially engine, specialist equipment or high end aftermarket fasteners quite simply needs some level of 12pt coverage.
A 1/2" drive set 10mm to 22mm will be useful and cost is like 30 to 60 bucks for pretty decent taiwan effort or perhaps less if go used or china mainland.
12pts also better as seal, bearing, bush drivers when in a pinch . They also handy in tight space scenarios not just in relation to clock position but for fact easier slip on a blind fastener and also damaged hex scenarios where 6 point won't fit and no space force it on, can also work as extractor sockets by hammering them on a damaged/deteriorated hex much like extractor sockets (useful on keyed wheel nuts for example)
A 1/2" drive set 10mm to 22mm will be useful and cost is like 30 to 60 bucks for pretty decent taiwan effort or perhaps less if go used or china mainland.
12pts also better as seal, bearing, bush drivers when in a pinch . They also handy in tight space scenarios not just in relation to clock position but for fact easier slip on a blind fastener and also damaged hex scenarios where 6 point won't fit and no space force it on, can also work as extractor sockets by hammering them on a damaged/deteriorated hex much like extractor sockets (useful on keyed wheel nuts for example)
Bubba Fett
Well-known member
6-point is less likely to round off a nut or bolt, so I would say they are essential for sockets. 12-point sockets are rarely used except for the odd 12-point fastener.
However, most would agree that a 12-point wrench is better, since there are twice as many positions to engage the fastener, which is important. That said, I honestly rarely use wrenches unless the space above the fastener is too tight for a socket/ratchet handle.
Then again, I am not a mechanic. I just do occasional work on my own vehicles, so my opinion probably doesn't count for much.
However, most would agree that a 12-point wrench is better, since there are twice as many positions to engage the fastener, which is important. That said, I honestly rarely use wrenches unless the space above the fastener is too tight for a socket/ratchet handle.
Then again, I am not a mechanic. I just do occasional work on my own vehicles, so my opinion probably doesn't count for much.
FSrepair&fabrication
Well-known member
90% of what i do is 6pt, but i carry a few 12point sets for certain things. 1/2 drive shallow metric from 10mm-32mm, standard from 3/8 to 1 1/8. I also keep a few snap on 5/16 and 8mm deep in 3/8 12 point for turbo bolts ( snap on chrome deep are the only kind that can fit in certain recesses) and i keep a few because those bolts get so seized its not uncommon to crack a socket.
Semi-hole mechanic
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- Feb 2, 2017
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- 1,026
I'm just a DIYer who lives in the rust belt. All of my 1/4" annd 3/8" are 6 pt. My shallow 1/2" drives are all 12pt., but my deeps are all 6pt. If I think I need a 6 pt. in 1/2" drive I use an impact as long as space allows.
Wrench97
Well-known member
Back in the day of 8.2l Detroits when we updated the head bolts from 14mm to 16mm I use to have 4 Snapon 1/2" 12point chrome sockets to get through 1 head gasket job. They finally came out with a 12pt 16mm impact socket and it lasted 3 or 4 cyl head jobs..............
marineman
Well-known member
Newer 15 liters still chew them up in a hurry. To the op, I wouldn't worry about 12 point right away, on the heavy stuff the only 12 point I see are under the valve cover which you won't be doing right away. Only exception for me is a 1/2" driveline socket.
Sent from my SM-G970U using The Garage Journal mobile app
Sent from my SM-G970U using The Garage Journal mobile app
FSrepair&fabrication
Well-known member
Same thing on Cat 3406c with the 3/4” 12 point head bolts. Theres a few i cant get a 3/4 drive or an impact on and i can crack a few 1/2 drive chrome sockets in short order. Pawn shop to the rescue on that one, i just keep a few craftsman around at all times and replenish them as they break.
coljar
Well-known member
As someone else said, I have both, but I'll use 6 point most of the time. My dad preferred 12 point, one of the few thing we disagreed on.
I can only think if one time I needed to use a 12 point metric socket on a 6 point fastener. I was working on something on my 2013 Dodge Challenger and a 12 point gave me more room the loosen it.. but for the life of me I don’t remember exactly what I was doing. I bought that car new and had to perform so many repairs on it over the years that it’s all a blur.