Show Your Vintage Knife

[piehammer]

Piehammer thanks for joining the discussion! Really like your Western and Case M3 Finn. The Westerns are really growing on me, as a group.

Thanks, wish they were in better shape.

 

[Provincial]

I attended an estate sale this morning. The photos made me think it would be slim pickings, but there was more interesting stuff there than I expected. Mostly small items which will be of use in normal activities.

The workbench had a back wall covered with pegboard, and on one hook I noticed a folding knife hanging from its bail. It caught my eye because it looked older, and despite some paint spatters and slight rust, it appeared to be of good quality.

I opened the blade, and the marking said "Imperial Prov. R.I. USA" The dot of the i is a crown. The edge, despite many years of neglect, is still quite sharp. The second blade has a screwdriver tip and the spine has a dip just past the groove for the nail mark. This blade has a lock, which is marked "press" to indicate how to unlock it. The scales are smooth and dark brown, with black highlights.

This knife seems to be of the same pattern as the military electrician's knives, but is of civilian origin. Imperial seems to have been one of the quality knife makers in the first half of the 20th Century, so my gut feeling on quality seems to have been correct.

I'm attaching some photos of the knife, and if anyone has more information on it, I will be grateful.

 

[JABgj]

My Mom gave me this old knife that belonged to my Grandfather. I would like to show it a little love. What is the best way to clean or condition the handle and sheath as well as clean the bit of surface rust from the blade. Don't want to do a big restoration, just keep it nice while it is in my care.

 

[gpw_42]

JAB, that Western is nice! I've never used it, but have seen a product called Flitz highly recommended for maintenance of knife blades. I think the best thing you can do for the stacked leather handle is nothing. Western made great knives, at least back to WW2. A little TLC and your grandfather's knife will be useful for your grandkids.

Provincial, that's a nice Imperial TL-29 pattern knife. I'll need to do some looking, but suspect that you're correct about it being civilian pattern. TL-29 knives are amazingly handy tools - until the Leatherman came out in 1983, per https://www.leatherman.com/leatherman-story.html they were the best "multi tool" that I know of.

 

[exmaxima1]

My Mom gave me this old knife that belonged to my Grandfather. I would like to show it a little love. What is the best way to clean or condition the handle and sheath as well as clean the bit of surface rust from the blade. Don't want to do a big restoration, just keep it nice while it is in my care.

That stacked leather handle is very much like those used on Estwing hammers years ago. I restored my hammer last year by sanding the leather to a uniform finish, and spraying it with poly varnish.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I rub a dab of Neat's Foot oil into my handles. I'm sure any leather preservative of your choice would work just as well. I soak blades in Evaporust or Metal Rescue just like any other rusty steel tool. I place them in an old wooden knife block to keep the handle out of the solution. You do not want to put the whole knife in. It will strip the leather of its dye.

 

[JABgj]

Thanks all for your comments on Grandpa's Western knife. Will give it a once over soon and put it back to work as soon as possible. This one will not rot in a drawer or a box.

 

[j.t.d.]

This my Hibbard Spencer Bartlett Our Very Best "HSB OVB" 2 bladed oversize folding knife. I purchased it 20 something years ago from the estate of a former hardware store owner. It is engraved S.S. Baker Co.

 

[Forgottonia]

This is my everyday pocket knife. It's got a 2" blade. I think it's an old Boy Scout knife. When I first started carrying it about a decade ago you could barely make out the words "Boy Scout" (or "BSA" or something like that). The markings are completely worn off now. I have no idea how old it is. I just like the way it fits in my pocket.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I lucked into this original Mercator K55K at the flea this morning.



If you don't know the back story on these, you're in for a treat. "Mercator" is not the OEM, that's the brand name, Latin for trader. The Mercator K55K has been made in pretty much this exact style continuously since 1867. Originally by Heinrich Kaufman, which is the first "K" in the model number. The "55" is their original address, 55 Hochstrasse. The last backwards "K" is for Katze, from the logo, hence their street name: "Black Cat" knife or just "Cat" knife. Known as "Kaiser Wilhelm" knives in Germany in the 1920's even though there's no proof they were German Army issue. Single blade, spear point, lock back. The case is steel, painted high gloss black, most of it missing on this example. The lines in the cat and the lettering are typically gold. Extremely light, thin, and durable. They were a very popular souvenir item for returning GI's after WWII and that's how they grew in fame here in the US. Very common gangster and street gang knife in the 50's due to that and their weight, flat profile, easy carry, and looks.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

In 1995 Kaufman was bought out by Otter, and they've been faithfully made by Otter Messer ever since. Maybe too faithfully. A good dating tell on these is the spacer to protect the blade. Originally it was red-dyed wood as in my example. Now it's my understanding it's steel or some kind of hard composite.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

There are a lot of knockoffs out there, too. Gutmann Cutlery Company (G.C.CO.), in Mt Veron, NY, imported look-alikes made in Japan from the 50's through the 90's, for example. Boldly, they even used a similar but not identical stylized cat logo. I have one. Well-made. But not a Mercator.

 

[Shiftless]

Cool old knife, Lugz. Nice find.
Thanks for the detailed back story. I always learn something from your posts.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Cool old knife, Lugz. Nice find.
Thanks for the detailed back story. I always learn something from your posts.

You're welcome. My pleasure. And thanks. I was elated. I'm very tempted to do a light resto. Try to get rid of some of the blight on the blade, touch up the black paint, and rub some gold into the etched cat and model number.

As long as the thread has been bumped, I was rummaging around in my knife drawer, and I'm on a roll, I don't think I've posted this yet.






The PAL RH-36 was the first US military fighting and survival knife. Not the more famous Union Cutlery "Ka-Bar". Before the PAL RH-36, there was only the Mk 1 trench knife with the brass knuckle grip, which dated back to WWI. If you're wondering why it has a Remington Hunter knife model number, it's because this knife was made for many years leading up to WWII by Remington Cutlery, a division of the firearms company, as a hunting knife. In 1940, they sold their knife business to PAL, which was only making pocket knives at the time. PAL kept the RH-36 model number. At that time, sailors, soldiers and airmen were authorized to carry their own knives. The PAL RH-36 was such a popular sheath knife with all the country boys, that the PX started carrying it. That put it in the federal standard stock catalog. When the WPB needed a good fighting knife, they took notice. They asked PAL to make more and they asked PAL if they could send the specs to other knife makers, including Union Cutlery and E.G. Waterman. The Ka-Bar may get the lion's share of WWII glory, but without PAL (and without Remington Arms before that), there would be no Ka-Bar knife. 3baygarage posted a splendid example of a U.S.N. Mk 2 Ka-Bar in post #10. Levaughn and I posted EGW knives in post #55 and #59.

I think this is the first PAL RH-36 on the thread. It was produced throughout the war. After the war PAL sold stock parts to customers who made their own blades and assembled their own knives through at least 1950.

The pommel is rough cast zinc, which is early. Later knives had wooden guards and pommels, and those are mid- to late war. The blade is carbon steel. Stacked leather washer handle. The sheath is sewn and riveted.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

And as long as I am on the Remington topic, here is a Remington Union Metallic Cartridge (U.M.C.) RH-4 with a full tang clip point blade made between 1924 and 1933. The handle is Bakelite, which is fairly rare. These are much more commonly seen with jigged bone handles in a leather sheath, for hunting. The tang is a little buried on this one. I am not sure what market this black beauty was intended.

 

[Provincial]

I went to an estate sale Saturday that was closing down and would let you fill a paper shopping bag for $5.00. I grabbed a bunch of stuff out of the garage, and saw a crusty knife lying on the floor. It looked like the cheap imported "Boy Scout" knives with no logo on the side, but since I was paying by volume, rather than weight, I tossed it in the bag.



After I got a chance to look through the contents of the bag, it appeared that the knife wasn't a cheap one. All the parts, except the scales, are metal, and all the blades have quality chrome plating. The main blade is still very sharp! I did find a marking on the main blade: Imperial Prov. RI.



The can opener is marked "CanOpener Pat. Pend." and an internet search found that the patent application was in November of 1944, and the patent was granted in December of 1945. The same post noted that the Navy bought this model of knife during that time period. Only the Navy bought four-bladed knives with the pen blade. The Army versions had a punch in that position. The Navy called them "Utility" knife, the Army "Engineer" or "Camp" knife, and the civilian name was most often "Camp" knife.





While this one could have been made and sold after the War, it would have to have been before the end of 1945, and it would have been exactly like the ones sold to the Navy.

I was thinking it was just a junker, and it turned out to be a very nice piece of history!

 

[exmaxima1]

You're welcome. My pleasure. And thanks. I was elated. I'm very tempted to do a light resto. Try to get rid of some of the blight on the blade, touch up the black paint, and rub some gold into the etched cat and model number.

As long as the thread has been bumped, I was rummaging around in my knife drawer, and I'm on a roll, I don't think I've posted this yet.






The PAL RH-36 was the first US military fighting and survival knife. Not the more famous Union Cutlery "Ka-Bar". Before the PAL RH-36, there was only the Mk 1 trench knife with the brass knuckle grip, which dated back to WWI. If you're wondering why it has a Remington Hunter knife model number, it's because this knife was made for many years leading up to WWII by Remington Cutlery, a division of the firearms company, as a hunting knife. In 1940, they sold their knife business to PAL, which was only making pocket knives at the time. PAL kept the RH-36 model number. At that time, sailors, soldiers and airmen were authorized to carry their own knives. The PAL RH-36 was such a popular sheath knife with all the country boys, that the PX started carrying it. That put it in the federal standard stock catalog. When the WPB needed a good fighting knife, they took notice. They asked PAL to make more and they asked PAL if they could send the specs to other knife makers, including Union Cutlery and E.G. Waterman. The Ka-Bar may get the lion's share of WWII glory, but without PAL (and without Remington Arms before that), there would be no Ka-Bar knife. 3baygarage posted a splendid example of a U.S.N. Mk 2 Ka-Bar in post #10. Levaughn and I posted EGW knives in post #55 and #59.

I think this is the first PAL RH-36 on the thread. It was produced throughout the war. After the war PAL sold stock parts to customers who made their own blades and assembled their own knives through at least 1950.

The pommel is rough cast zinc, which is early. Later knives had wooden guards and pommels, and those are mid- to late war. The blade is carbon steel. Stacked leather washer handle. The sheath is sewn and riveted.

Remington copied the Marbles "Ideal" knife prior to WWII, in particular the massive fullers, and AFAIK was just one of several suppliers of that style knife to Uncle Sam. While doing some research on my dad's old Marbles (the knife shown in Post #6) I found a note about how some soldiers were buying their own knives during and after the war.

 

[exmaxima1]

While on the subject of WWII sheath knives, one of the most coveted is the Randall knife. While I don't own a Randall, I have a homage version made by Blackjack Classic Knives (Mike Stewart). Mine has a 7" blade of 52100 steel. The edge is convex ground unlike Randall's concave version. Made around 1994 in Effingham IL, so not really vintage, yet the design goes back to the 1930's. I was fortunate to catch this one at a garage sale for $10---still has the original factory edge and will shave my arm.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Remington copied the Marbles "Ideal" knife prior to WWII, in particular the massive fullers, and AFAIK was just one of several suppliers of that style knife to Uncle Sam.

The only fixed blade "fighting knife" the US military used prior to 1942 was the M1 trench knife with the brass knuckles grip. Remington Cutlery didn't supply any knives to the US military during WWII. They sold out to PAL in 1940 as stated above.

According to the WPB Cumulative List of Major War Supply Contracts, PAL Blade had dozens of contracts worth $7.3M of which roughly maybe only a fifth were RH-36 "Sheath Knives" or "Fighting Knives" made for the Navy, Ordnance Dept, and QMC. They were certainly not the sole supplier. Union Cutlery (Ka-Bar) sold a healthy $2.9M worth, roughly half of which were "Sheath Knives" or "Combat Knives", for comparison. I already showed an E.G. Waterman on this thread, another prized M1 and M2 supplier. But Imperial and Utica alone made more M3's than all other knife makers combined. Marble Arms is not listed in the WPB reference. We know they made fighting knives for the USMC, at least, so it is probably a matter of volume. The reference only tracked contracts worth $50,000 or more. E.G. Waterman is not listed, either, almost certainly for the same reason. But people don't covet EGW's or Gladstones because they were the most popular or common.

It is my understanding that the PAL RH-36 was the model given to others. And their first contract does precede Union Cutlery's first contract. But I could be wrong. I'd have to go back to consult a few authoritative knife books on that point.

As for Remington Cutlery copying Marble's design, I'd never heard that before. I'm tempted to consult an authoritative knife source on that, too.

 

[gpw_42]

The only fixed blade "fighting knife" the US military used prior to 1942 was the M1 trench knife with the brass knuckles grip.

Expanding on Lugz' comment above, the US Army's first "issue" knife was the M1880 Hunting Knife (not a fighting knife, but...), shown here with a 3rd pattern scabbard. Source: https://collegehillarsenal.com/image/cache/catalog/D/EWSK-1189-1-1500x1000.jpg They were also available with an iron guard, but collectors tend to favor the brass.



Provincial, thanks for sharing your USN utility knife. That thing is in remarkable condition!

Exmaxima, that Blackjack is a fine knife, and a good copy of a Randall Model 1-7, congrats on what must have been a coup to buy at a garage sale. What we know as the RMK Model 1 was first made in 1943, with the Model 2 and Model 3 in 1944 and Model 4 in 1945.

 

[exmaxima1]

.......

As for Remington Cutlery copying Marble's design, I'd never heard that before. I'm tempted to consult an authoritative knife source on that, too.

I'm not an expert either, but I think this article makes a convincing argument:

The Story Behind America’s First Hunting Knife

How Webster Marble turned the hunting knife into a must-have piece of outdoor gear.

www.fieldandstream.com

 

[Provincial]

"Provincial, thanks for sharing your USN utility knife. That thing is in remarkable condition!"

Thanks, GPW_42!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Good article, exmaxima. I'll see what Shively, Price, or Trzaska has to say when I can get to them.

 

[gpw_42]

Recently picked up this USN marked knife from the auction site, and today I bypassed this post-war Camillus TL-29 which was ground into a bottle opener.

The USN knife was made by Ulster, and has seen better days. But it's uncommon enough that I paid more in shipping than purchase price to get my hands on it.

 

[d42jeep]

Recently picked up this USN marked knife from the auction site, and today I bypassed this post-war Camillus TL-29 which was ground into a bottle opener.

The USN knife was made by Ulster, and has seen better days. But it's uncommon enough that I paid more in shipping than purchase price to get my hands on it.

Nice one. I have a Navy FSN marked knife but that’s the first one I’ve seen with the USN marked on the handle. Cool find no matter the condition!
-Don

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Recently picked up this USN marked knife

Nice

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Found a couple vintage knives I liked at the flea this morning.

Here's the first, a self-proclaimed "FISH KNIFE" No. 103 fish knife (just in case you forgot what it was for...) with a shallow clip-point main blade and a sawtooth secondary with a pry tip and a bottle opener at the heel. I like it because the shape when closed resembles a lure. Pressed steel scales. Overland was a major importer. Made in Germany.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I was really excited about this amber-colored pocketknife,



It is a vintage souvenir from the city of Munich, a city I got to know and love very well when I lived just north of there, during a three-year assignment to Field Station Augsburg. The scene depicted in the artwork under the clear scale is Lady Bavaria, a towering statue in front of Ruhmeshalle, the Bavarian Hall of Fame, which dates to 1850.





The flip side is ever more iconic.



The monk, found on everything from coats of arms to old coins and flags, is the eponymous symbol of Munchen, which translates as 'Home of Monks', and Gruss Aus Munchen literally means 'Greetings From Munich'. The church depicted at the bottom is the Frauenkirche, built in 1468, and nearly destroyed in WWII. Its twin onion domes are the most famous and recognizable part of the Munich skyline.



Ironically, but not surprisingly, it was made in Solingen, which is a city in North Rhine-Westphalia. I don't know what C.A.M. is, but they have other souvenir knives. I have seen one depicting the Tower of London on one side and Buckingham Palace on the other, for instance.

 

[gpw_42]

Lugz, I like your fish knife - that's pretty cool. Looks like it'd fit in a pretty small tackle box, too.

Doubt those souvenir knives sell as well today as they once did. I'm assuming here, but guessing that proportionately few folks carry pocket knives today, compared to the past. It's become a bit of a "thing" at church that I generally, habitually, almost always have a knife in my pocket, in a congregation most of the men are vets.

 

[RTM]

I'm assuming here, but guessing that proportionately few folks carry pocket knives today, compared to the past. It's become a bit of a "thing" at church that I generally, habitually, almost always have a knife in my pocket, in a congregation most of the men are vets.

Up until the pandemic, I almost never left the house without a pocket knife. Most people at work were always amazed that I always have one. Out of a group of 100, I think 4 of us always carried something. Now I almost never leave the house, so the knives are buried in a pile of other junk by the door.

The Gerber utility knife things comes out for garage tasks.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I've been carrying a knife since I was a young teenager. The only time I don't have one on me is flying. Nothing crazy. It's just the way I grew up, where I grew up, and who I grew up with. But the Munich Souvenir is going in the display case.

 

[JimDon]

I also grew up carrying a pocket knife at all times. As I grew older and left an office environment for an outside construction environment, I went from a pocket knife to a lock back in a belt sheath cause I found this line of work just calls out for a heavier bladed knife. Now that I only have the use of my right arm, I have found that my switch blades, and power assist knives are even more valuable than ever. Cheers, Jim Don

 

[Macduf]

 

[Macduf]

A camillus single blade. Odd blade shape
A Mercador . Only one I've seen without a blade lock

 

[Provincial]

I'm another person who always carries a knife. I started in grade school, and still carry in any non-prohibited area. I'm another one who advanced to a lock back for work, but I also carry a small Swiss with scissors, file/screwdriver, toothpick, and tweezers that supplement the blade. I use the extra blades quite often.

I forgot I had the Swiss on me when I went to an event that had metal detectors. I moved it to a sock, and passed without setting it off. I suspect that it is common knowledge how to pass the metal detectors!

 

[555]

l like knives. I like them a lot and have collected a bunch. I have a propensity to collect advertising knives but just about any old knife will peak my interest. Here's three from my collection.
The very shiny stainless knife is a Zippo and was presented to me by the Sergeant Major of the Army Glen E. Morrel in 1983. The old bone handle Case and the simulated bone handled Boy Scout knives came from a friend who owned a junk store.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I like them a lot and have collected a bunch.

You've come to the right thread! I look forward to seeing more.

...presented to me by the Sergeant Major of the Army Glen E. Morrel in 1983.

Morrel's Morals! That is way better than a freakin' commandant's coin!

 

[Duke74]

I will post pics. Do swords and bayonets count?

 

[Private Lugnutz]

So I've got this side yard with a patch of English ivy surrounding a small sitting area made of old slate with an old iron pergola on it. The ivy has always been a pain, growing fast and aggressively, trailers diving under the soil, spreading to fences, that needs constant trimming. Or what I do which is let it go too long. Then the job becomes immeasurably more unbearable with hedge trimmers. I've been casually looking for a good cheap bush axe, and I almost bought a cheap kitchen cleaver last week.

Today I bought a machete at the flea market with that danged ivy patch in mind. I noticed that it might have some interesting etching on it, but my intention was still purely utilitarian. It is well made, not loose, and quite hefty, with a stacked leather washer handle and a serious Fierce Eagle head pommel. Best of all, it was $10.

I tucked it under my arm and proceeded to continue making my rounds. I didn't get 30 feet before someone asked me where I got it. Twenty minutes later, the seller at another table asked if he could look at it. On my way out a guy said, "Nice machete."

Why yes, yes it is.

It was too long for my Evaporust bin, so I wrapped it tightly and carefully in rags sopping wet with Evaporust and left it outside for a few hours.

It's marked "HECHO EN MEXICO." That side of the blade also depicts four lions with mountains behind them.

On the flip side, an inscription surrounded by fancy filigree reads: "CUANDO ME VEAS RELUCIR PREPATE A BUEN MORIR," which means more or less, "WHEN YOU SEE ME SHINE, PREPARE TO DIE WELL."

Now I'm having second thoughts about whacking the ivy with it.

 

[saukit]

Lugz that thing is freaking awesome! I think you should attack the patch of ivy while yelling the motto! I have a much newer and way less cool machete from Brazil that was given to me a long time ago by a co-worker. He went on and on about how the machetes from South America are made from "springier" steel than the ones they sell up here. Mine will chop through a 4" diameter branch in a few minutes when it's sharp.