No frills pellet stove?

[PCustoms]

Starting to think about heat for the winter...

House heat is primarily wood with forced hot air (propane) if I am traveling or let the fire go out. Got a lot of wood to clear from the lot so this is essentially $0, but 5-10 years later will have to buy.

Shop is in the basement. Current heat is an unvented propane unit, which predicably makes moisture. I want to replace that.

Option 1: wood stove.

Pro:
-free wood.
-Have a stove a may be able to use

Con:
-chimney pipe is $$$. Would need to run it outside (less efficient, less attractive)
-May not be able to use old stove (not currently listed, have to see what insurance says)

Option 2: Pellet Stove

Pro: -cheaper vent, can go out sidewall last I checked
-can watch consumption and decide if I can afford to heat the shop to play around
Con: -another fuel source, though plan to eventually change upstairs to pellets once wood is depleted.
-vent savings offset by stove cost

Option 3: propane

Pro: -line already installed
-easier venting options
-instant on/off ( if I need to use solvent for example)

Con: - not easy to monitor usage for the shop

 

[Jackfre]

Rinnai EX22 is your best bet for basement heat. It is DV and vent extensions are available to go up the wall and out with the supplied termination. Mini-splits are growing and definitely worth a look as in the summer it will dehumidifier the basement. Back in about 2008 when I was still in that market we figured that 5% of all the homes and apts in VT had a Rinnai. It is a very well known product by propane companies in your area.

 

[sparky 1971]

I have two pellet stoves, one upstairs and one in the basement. The unit upstairs is set up to only burn shelled corn, it works incredibly well and is extremely efficient, but... it's a $3500 St. Croix. My basement stove is a $1500 U.S. Stove and will burn anything. Corn and wood pellets mixed is what I use, but it can use cherry pits and soybeans among other things that I can't remember. That unit is a pig. It burns about 50% more than my other stove to produce the same amount or a little less heat and only holds half as much, 40lbs vs 90lbs. If I put it on heat setting #1 and fill it in the morning, there will still be fuel in it when I get home 10 to 12 hours later, but it's about out. On the really cold days, #1 just ain't enough and I put it on #2 if someone is going to be home. I have to call to remind the wife or kid to go dump some more fuel in it or it will run out before I get home. Also, because it's in the basement, the draft pipe runs about 6' vertical before it 90's to go outside. I think it's because of this that I can't run it on #3 for more than a couple of hours, #4 for more than an hour, and #5 for more than a few minutes. The stove can't burn the fuel fast enough because I can't get a good enough draft and the fire winds up getting snuffed out with an overflowing burn pot. Would I do it again? The St. Croix, yes. The U.S. Stove, nope. The only reason I have them is because I don't have adequate duct work. I have a 1700 sq ft house with six vents on the main level. There was an 16X40 addition put on in the 80's and no duct work run into it. I have plans to add the ductwork, but it will involve tearing out about 1200 sq ft of basement ceiling and I just don't want to do that right now. At least not until the kids are old enough that I won't send them to the basement to watch tv every night.

 

[chrispyny]

Is this thread strictly about heating the shop in your basement or your house as well from spillover heat into the house from the basement?
my comments on each.

wood stove: How old are you and are you fit enough to prepare wood for burning yearly? It’s obviously available to you, being in VT.
I live in upstate NY, and installed a Jotul c450 fireplace insert in 2013 as it was that, or brick up the fireplace. It was shooting cold air into my finished basement floor(raised ranch) and costing me heating money, even with flue closed. Glad i did it but feeding the stove *****. You bring in bugs from outside, bark and dirt, and you have to make frequent trips to the pile for wood. Good things are the wood was cheap to free for me and i have a lot stacked and split. I can heat my whole home with it. nothing beats the ambiance and crackle and feel of wood heat in the winter. Very comfy.

pellets. Do you have storage for pallets of pellets? Also prices have only risen per ton for Those. And lugging 40lb bags can ****. My significant other had a pellet stove in her rented house previous to moving in with me. Harmon somethin or other. It was a good stove by an american company. It SUCKED to have to clean every few days. The ash and soot stunk as the stove was efficient but never burned 100% of the pellets so there was always a mess after a full few days of burning. we would run it out of pellets and wait half a day for it to cool down To clean it. Scrapers, dirty vacuums, etc. Pellets end up everywhere no matter how careful you are. The good was good heat and a bag lasted a while. My least favorite heating method but i don’t dislike it.

Propane. Is propane affordable for you in VT? Clean burning, easy to set a thermostat to, easy to regulate. Only rhing that ***** is, you are at the mercy of the delivery truck.
weigh your options. Let us know how it goes.

 

[PCustoms]

Is this thread strictly about heating the shop in your basement or your house as well from spillover heat into the house from the basement?
my comments on each.

Basement shop only, but toasty floors are always nice.

Plenty of storage for pellets, since this is basement and not primary heat all things you mentioned are OK by me. Concerns are reliability and long term parts availability. Lots of people "upgrading" working stoves that I suspect have issues and parts are NLA.

Propane is what it is I suppose. When it's my only option I make sure I'm with the lowest cost supplier, and I call for fills when prices are low. For accessory heat it just ***** not being able to track what I am burning.

For the house, I try to use wood as primary but as I said in OP the furnace is ready to go and takes the load when I travel, woodstove goes out etc. I'm in my 30's and well prepared to deal with the wood between saws, tractor and splitter. Currently have a face cord on the deck to dry out (wasn't stacked well and has been a wet summer). 2 cord in the woodshed that's been drying for several years, that's coming up next and will burn great, likely until February. Beyond that there is 4 cord sitting in racks that will burn now but should wait a year. I've got a couple more bucked ready to split now that it is cooling off. The big (24'+) oaks have a lot of wood per there but are a bear to move.

 

[Jackfre]

Toasty floors. When my shop was in my basement in the MA house and I knew I’d be working in there for the weekend I’d turn the Rinnai on Fri night and make that poor mans radiant system. It would completely change the comfort in the house.

 

[65ranchero]

As per my research looking into pellets there are different types on fuel you can use and it depends on what you buy as far as leaving unburned particles and the type of ash.
some types also will gum up the auto feed augers.
If you go pellet do your research !
And no I do not use a pellet stove it's not practical for my use.

 

[American Locomotive]

People I know swear by pellet stoves, but when I run the numbers it's really only marginally more economical than #2 fuel oil. It's often a wash, with oil heat sometimes being cheaper. I think most of the "cost savings" from pellet stoves really comes from the more centralized heat aspect. As in, you close the doors to rooms you don't want heat. While most people with forced-hot-air don't really have that luxury.

A friend of mine heats exclusively with a pellet stove, and it just seems like such a hassle. Like really the only benefit over wood is the pellet stove can modulate with the push of a button. But other than that, the process is extremely similar. Get multiple pallets of pellets, stack them all in the outdoor shed, lug the bags over to the little storage cubby near the house, stack a bunch of bags inside near the stove. When the stove runs out after 1-2 days, grab 3 heavy bags, cut them open, pour them into the stove. Spilled pellets everywhere when the bag inevitably tears. Huge pile of old plastic bags everywhere. When the inside pile runs out, you gotta go back to the shed, grab another dozen bags, stack em up, etc... Then after a week you need to shut the stove down, let it cool down for hours, clean it all out. Then you have occasional auger jams and feed issues.

Like seesh, I'd rather just have a wood stove and order a couple of cords of clean, split, dry wood for ~=60-70% the cost of pellets. From what I've seen, it's hardly less work than purchasing wood if the pellet stove is your primary heat source.

However....another friend of mine has a pellet boiler setup in his garage, tied to his house. This thing is fed by an automatic hopper feeder that holds at least 500+ pounds of pellets. So he doesn't even have to touch the thing for a week. IIRC, it also has easy ash clean out that doesn't even require him to shut the boiler down. Now that's a decent setup that actually reduces labor. Plus he has both oil, propane and pellet heat - so he can wheel and deal whichever is the cheapest in a given year.

But for you, I'd probably just get that direct vented propane heater or maybe look into a minisplit with some sort of "hyper heat" ability.

 

[kelpaso1]

A friend of mine heats exclusively with a pellet stove, and it just seems like such a hassle. Like really the only benefit over wood is the pellet stove can modulate with the push of a button. But other than that, the process is extremely similar. Get multiple pallets of pellets, stack them all in the outdoor shed, lug the bags over to the little storage cubby near the house, stack a bunch of bags inside near the stove. When the stove runs out after 1-2 days, grab 3 heavy bags, cut them open, pour them into the stove. Spilled pellets everywhere when the bag inevitably tears. Huge pile of old plastic bags everywhere. When the inside pile runs out, you gotta go back to the shed, grab another dozen bags, stack em up, etc... Then after a week you need to shut the stove down, let it cool down for hours, clean it all out.

My back hurts even more reading that LOL

Like seesh, I'd rather just have a wood stove and order a couple of cords of clean, split, dry wood for ~=60-70% the cost of pellets. From what I've seen, it's hardly less work than purchasing wood if the pellet stove is your primary heat source. Lots of guys selling split hardwood here.

Yep, and don't have to worry about pellet shortages we sometimes get here. Lots of guys selling split hardwood here for $300/cord. I don't even use 2 full cords here per fall, winter, spring, so heating with wood is cheap.

 

[Showkey]

People I know swear by pellet stoves, but when I run the numbers it's really only marginally more economical than #2 fuel oil. It's often a wash, with oil heat sometimes being cheaper. I think most of the "cost savings" from pellet stoves really comes from the more centralized heat aspect. As in, you close the doors to rooms you don't want heat.

Agree^^^^^^^^^^

Think that number thing must be carefully watched with propane vs pellet as well.
Pellets hay day was when propane sky rockets to $4.00/gallon……..today pellets might not pass the spread sheet test when its all added up.

My basement shop is cool in the winter. I added a small 45k btu 95% single stage furnace running on Nat gas 7 years ago before prices on furnaces went up. If I was propane I would do the same today.

Example of what I installed not the same brand but the unit was FEDEX to my door.
PVC a venting, plenum and duct work was minimal. Think mine was less $800 all in again a few years back.

 

[Jackfre]

People that have them seem to like them, but I just don’t get pellets. Source the pellets, transport, carry, store, protect from the elements and rodents, transport into house, load, which is a two person job as one lifts the 40# bag and the other hold the shop vac to catch the inevitable dust, dispose of the bag, clean it regularly and then listen to the damned thing because they are noisy. Also make sure you use all the stored pellets per season as pellets swell with humidity and you can end up with kitty litter, or mold. I had a customer up in the NW who has sold several thousand pellet stoves over the years and now always asks the question before selling a new couple. “How old are you?” He asks the couple and then to the lady, “can you handle 40# bags up in the air to load this thing if anything happens to him?” So[me storm out of the store, but he is right to ask the question. I see pellets as a nice hobby. Are you looking for a new hobby?

 

[1redTA]

option #4

mini split in the ground level of the house

 

[Showkey]

option #4

mini split in the ground level of the house

Must buy be the best one made $$$$ for those OP VT winters. VT like Wisconsin winters that would be option 10 on my list not 4. Especially since the OP has enjoyed the comforts of wood, propane and pellet heat.

 

[PCustoms]

I'm not spending money to install a mini split in my basement.

Options are wood, pellet, gas or electric.

 

[PCustoms]

Looking at my wood supply I've got this winter ready to go, next winter stacked drying and 2 years out ready to split.

Spent some time this weekend "exploring" my septic, this winter I am going to drop another 80' oak to avoid root issues near the field. May drop a similar sized maple. Those 2 trees are probably another winter of wood.

 

[brianh]

A few years ago I got a free pellet stove I generate a lot of sawdust so I figured I would try to make it run on sawdust since I make a lot of it. I increased the auger speeds had to port out the auger feed for more volume and fabricated the top auger so the sawdust would not pack up and jam. Was about to give up a few times but now it runs great. I added a hot water coil to pick up more heat the exhaust temp was 350 after the coil and radiator it is around 200. Keeps my 2400 sq ft R38 insulated shop in the mid 50's during the winter perfect for me.

 

[PCustoms]

A few years ago I got a free pellet stove I generate a lot of sawdust so I figured I would try to make it run on sawdust since I make a lot of it. I increased the auger speeds had to port out the auger feed for more volume and fabricated the top auger so the sawdust would not pack up and jam. Was about to give up a few times but now it runs great. I added a hot water coil to pick up more heat the exhaust temp was 350 after the coil and radiator it is around 200. Keeps my 2400 sq ft R38 insulated shop in the mid 50's during the winter perfect for me.

Well that certainly puts a new option on the table!

 

[kelpaso1]

A few years ago I got a free pellet stove I generate a lot of sawdust so I figured I would try to make it run on sawdust since I make a lot of it. I increased the auger speeds had to port out the auger feed for more volume and fabricated the top auger so the sawdust would not pack up and jam. Was about to give up a few times but now it runs great. I added a hot water coil to pick up more heat the exhaust temp was 350 after the coil and radiator it is around 200. Keeps my 2400 sq ft R38 insulated shop in the mid 50's during the winter perfect for me.

What a waste of time. A simple fan where you have the rad would result in the same or better performance. Air to air heat transfer is much more efficient than that cluster you got going on.

 

[Showkey]

^^^^^^^^^^Not to mention any failure could lead to super heated water/steam release !!!!!!

 

[PoorUB]

I had a wood stove in the basement for a couple years. It was in the house when we bought it. Best part is I got free, split wood. All I did was tune up my brother-in-law's chainsaws and he would bring me a pickup load of wood. A couple hours in the shop and all the wood I wanted.

I used it for two years then tore it out and sold it. I don't miss the mess and the hassle one bit.

I wouldn't put in a pellet stove either!

 

[brianh]

^^^^^^^^^^Not to mention any failure could lead to super heated water/steam release !!!!!!

The system is not pressurized but what else would I expect on here.

 

[brianh]

What a waste of time. A simple fan where you have the rad would result in the same or better performance. Air to air heat transfer is much more efficient than that cluster you got going on.

Ok explain your method. There is a fan behind the radiator but thanks.

 

[Showkey]

The system is not pressurized but what else would I expect on here.

If the water in the coil fails to flow for any reason……..it will boil. That’s all I am saying………
That can happen in any boiler ( hot water setup).

 

[kelpaso1]

Ok explain your method. There is a fan behind the radiator but thanks.

What I'm saying is, the water in the rad is only 200 degrees max. The air temp coming off the top of the wood stove itself is in the area of 4-600 degrees. you are actually cooling the air with the rad than simply blowing the hotter air coming off the stove itself without the rad.

 

[Jackfre]

There was a lot of these type systems done back in the 70’s. A good fellow, Bill Hollabaugh made the Holly-Hydro Heater. It was about a 8” piece of steel 2x6 tubing placed in a fireplace or stove and they worked well. The other method was to make a double wall vent pipe to go above the Wood stove to capture the heat from the hot flue gases. The later made a bunch of hot water but also made vast qty’s of creosote due to the reduced stack temps. The Holley was great but all I did were on closed loop systems and required an expansion tank and relief valve(S). I would put multiples in line. These things faded out over time, or maybe I faded out.
Brian, that is pretty cool. I wouldn’t use direct copper there and as it is non-pressurized it is sorta safe…for the original operator.

 

[American Locomotive]

What I'm saying is, the water in the rad is only 200 degrees max. The air temp coming off the top of the wood stove itself is in the area of 4-600 degrees. you are actually cooling the air with the rad than simply blowing the hotter air coming off the stove itself without the rad.

Your implication is that the wood stove some how has the same (or greater) volume of hot air convecting off its surface. That is not even remotely true. It's about surface area. The pellet stove only has so much surface area exposed to the combustion chamber. That radiator has more surface area than the entire pellet stove.

Pellet stoves are reasonably efficient, but 25-30% of their heat still goes out the exhaust pipe. The fact that he measured a reduction in flue temperatures indicates he increased the overall stove efficiency. Granted, low flue temperatures come with their own issues, such as creosote and soot build up.

 

[kelpaso1]

Your implication is that the wood stove some how has the same (or greater) volume of hot air convecting off its surface. That is not even remotely true. It's about surface area. The pellet stove only has so much surface area exposed to the combustion chamber. That radiator has more surface area than the entire pellet stove.

Pellet stoves are reasonably efficient, but 25-30% of their heat still goes out the exhaust pipe. The fact that he measured a reduction in flue temperatures indicates he increased the overall stove efficiency. Granted, low flue temperatures come with their own issues, such as creosote and soot build up.

No, the air is 3 times hotter from the stove itself. Basic, The stove also has way more thermal mass than that radiator.

 

[American Locomotive]

No, the air is 3 times hotter from the stove itself. Basic, The stove also has way more thermal mass than that radiator.

Thermal mass is irrelevant. We're talking energy transfer here - not energy storage. Yes, the air convecting off the stove will be very hot - but very little air is actually moving. When you point a fan on a wood stove, you don't magically have 600 degree air blowing all over the room. The 5% of 600 degree air mixes 95% room-temp air. This is because the top of the pellet stove is extremely limited in surface area and thermal conductivity.

How much and how fast you can transfer heat from an object depends on three things:
- The thermal conductivity of the material
- The temperature of the material
- The surface area you are conducting too/from.

A typical pellet stove will have what, 5-6 square feet of "hot" steel surface? On the other hand a typical copper or aluminum car radiator will have ~70 square feet of surface area. Furthermore, steel is a very poor conductor of heat. Copper has 8x more thermal conductivity per unit area than steel, aluminum about 4x. So that radiator is equivalent to a wood stove with 280-560 square feet of surface area.

Next, the amount of energy you can transfer is determined by your thermal conductivity and the temperature of the fluids/gases involved. Most of the stove's surfaces are only in contact with the relatively cool ~500-600 degree flue gasses. His copper coil being directly impinged by the 1200-1400 degree fire.

 

[PoorUB]

If the water in the coil fails to flow for any reason……..it will boil. That’s all I am saying………
That can happen in any boiler ( hot water setup).

It is an open system. Does a boiling pot on your stove explode and shoot super heated steam all over the kitchen? The worst I see if it failed is melted copper tubing in the fire box.

As long as he keeps water in the silver pot above I don't see much chance of a catastrophic failure, and even if the water ran out there is such a small quantity in the tubing it would simply boil off. No spectacular explosion of steam. With a water coil like he has there is no capacity of water to create a huge explosion. I would be willing to bet you could drain the system of all the water, fire up the pellet stove, get everything up to temp and add water and you might get some bubbling in the pot from steam releasing, until the water coil in the burner cools back down. At least nothing catastrophic.

 

[Showkey]

It is an open system. Does a boiling pot on your stove explode and shoot super heated steam all over the kitchen? The worst I see if it failed is melted copper tubing in the fire box.
.

Maybe a slight variation from the OP.
My thought if the (edit) Brian insurance company did an inspection…….they would issue a policy cancellation letter in 24 hours.

My neighbor got a cancel letter for having a pellet stove in his shop without any modifications. His only remedy was removing the unit from the property, not just removed from service.

 

[stillnostrebor]

I have that exact same pellet stove in my shop, running as a pellet stove. The fire box is isolated from the outside surface, as the hopper is above it. There is almost no surface heat from my stove except from the glass front... you can lay your bare hand on it everywhere else and it is cool to the touch. The only way you could capture additional heat from it would be a system like the one depicted, or a system like a "Magic Heat" that was in the exhaust stream.

IMHO of course.

 

[stillnostrebor]

Maybe a slight variation from the OP.
My thought if the OP insurance company did an inspection…….they would issue a policy cancellation letter in 24 hours.

My neighbor got a cancel letter for having a pellet stove in his shop without any modifications. His only remedy was removing the unit from the property, not just removed from service.

This is a high possibility as well. My insurance choices are limited. We have a pellet insert in our home, which they all seem ok-ish with. Free standing stoves are touchy whether pellet, wood, etc.

 

[PoorUB]

My neighbor put a wood stove in his garage. It was there through the winter and I notice it is gone. So either the city or his insurance told him to remove it.

Some cities are tough on them, no wood or pellet stoves. Then insurance can be another ******.

Also, I don't feel the stoves are inherently dangerous, but many of the installer/operators are!