J H Williams vintage hand tools

[MR.X]

A few years ago I posted this mid 30's Williams Beryllium Copper wrench on a different thread and since then I've seen a Williams wrench that appeared to be much older that looked like it was Bronze, the patina looked Bronze, the lack of ANY rust and the type of dents (which also displayed no rust) where it was used to hammer on something also implied some sort of copper alloy. Does anyone know if Williams was making Bronze or Brass versions of their standard wrenches in the teens or 20's? I don't need a lot of advice about the magnetism of different alloys or thick plating considerations.

 

[JjKk40]

What's the number on it? The book has No.997 as a "Short" wrench.

Yup #997 as far as I can tell.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Surprisingly not mentioned or shown in the 1914 complete line catalog i have.

You think it's around that old?

I think it took them a long time to come off of standard wrenches and drop-forgings (eye hooks, lathe dogs, etc). They introduce the Vulcan Auto Tool in 1912, and the Demountable Rim Tool in 1914. Guessing late teens or 1920's. EDIT: Keep in mind that the first time a type of tool other than a wrench appears in a Williams 'Tools of Industry' catalog, it was 1941, and that was pliers, screwdrivers, and chisels. Not even any hammers. There are nothing but wrenches in the 1937 'Tools of Industry' catalog.

Does anyone know if Williams was making Bronze or Brass versions of their standard wrenches in the teens or 20's?

I do not, X. As you are doubtlessly aware, they proclaimed special order copper and bronze drop-forgings in the 1901 and 1912 catalogs, and they even have a special page in the back where they list the things they will do in copper and bronze, but wrenches are not one of them. Unfortunately, there is a huge gap in major catalogs in the public domain between 1912 and 1937 (both available at Internet Archive / International Tool Catalog Library (IA/ITCL)), and the 1937 is the first catalog I know of that lists the "Non-Sparking" wrenches by name and special part number, in their own section. There is a 1931 Superrench pamphlet on IA/ITCL, and it does not include any non-sparking, copper, or bronze wrenches or special order notes that I saw.

I don't need a lot of advice about the magnetism of different alloys or thick plating considerations.

You didn't mention a 'no grinding, it's toxic' warning.

 

[MR.X]

I think it took them a long time to come off of standard wrenches and drop-forgings (eye hooks, lathe dogs, etc). They introduce the Vulcan Auto Tool in 1912, and the Demountable Rim Tool in 1914. Guessing late teens or 1920's. EDIT: Keep in mind that the first time a type of tool other than a wrench appears in a Williams 'Tools of Industry' catalog, it was 1941, and that was pliers, screwdrivers, and chisels. Not even any hammers. There are nothing but wrenches in the 1937 'Tools of Industry' catalog.

I do not, X. As you are doubtlessly aware, they proclaimed special order copper and bronze drop-forgings in the 1901 and 1912 catalogs, and they even have a special page in the back where they list the things they will do in copper and bronze, but wrenches are not one of them. Unfortunately, there is a huge gap in major catalogs in the public domain between 1912 and 1937 (both available at Internet Archive / International Tool Catalog Library (IA/ITCL)), and the 1937 is the first catalog I know of that lists the "Non-Sparking" wrenches by name and special part number, in their own section. There is a 1931 Superrench pamphlet on IA/ITCL, and it does not include any non-sparking, copper, or bronze wrenches or special order notes that I saw.

You didn't mention a 'no grinding, it's toxic' warning.

so I looked in that 1937 catalog......that G34 wrench I posted was $16.40 in 1937?!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Dang. Like $~300 today.

 

[MR.X]

Dang. Like $~300 today.

Right!?

 

[Old Radar]

You didn't mention a 'no grinding, it's toxic' warning.

You got that right! Beryllium spheres were used in the upgraded dual inertial navigation systems in the B-52G & H models and had cautions associated with their operation. The electro-optical viewing system (EVS) used a Beryllium-backed mirror in it's steerable TV camera. Of course, its associated cautions were child's play next to the warning of lethal voltages that coursed across the face of the FLIR turret...

 

[MR.X]

You didn't mention a 'no grinding, it's toxic' warning.

right on schedule.

 

[wrenchguy]

Bumping.
Received a nice No.7 engineers wrench today.
So now down to 2 needed for the "Silent Salesman" Senior Board.
Oval logo wrenches wanted with below part numbers.
No.1, single head engineers wrench, top row left.
(As luck would have it..... Its the smallest on the board.)
I'm thinking it may not have the oval logo????
994 spark plug wrench, may not have oval logo only the "W in Diamond" logo.
thanks 4 any help.

 

[Ricky Joe]

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[Ricky Joe]

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[wrenchguy]

Milled 1/2" for 1/4 USS nut. 4" long. Book shows 2 smaller than this.... I'm thankful I'm not looking for those.

 

[JjKk40]

If brand is not important to you for your user, I have one you can have.

Oh wow thats awesome man! No for a user at my work I don't mind on the brand.

 

[genog]

It was Williams Superrench Day at the Flea Market
Found these from multiple sellers and found some other cool old tools as well.

Refreshing change from the Same Ole Same Ole at the Flea Market
I am going to change things up and start going on Saturdays

 

[genog]

Also found a couple of DBE wrenches and a diagonal cutter

 

[GalaxyRat]

Here's my "Superjustable" I need to service. 12"

1968+ manufacturing date with black oxide finish. Not sure what stained it.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

Picked up this Vulcan 3/8-drive B-59 hinge head this morning. I think the bend in the shank is factory (the B-52 is straight), but I'll defer to 3bay on that.

 

[RTM]

Hey all

Just tossed this up in the Bell Systems thread. Seems Williams may have been a preferred provider for some of the BSP tools, as noted by the documents found with this search

site:telecomarchive.com/docs/bsp-archive/074/ "williams"

The search seems to break down if I remove the 074, which is the tools category

Armstrong, Billings & Spencer, XceLite, and Fairmont show up for a few also, but Williams shows up a lot in the 4 or 5 I've looked at.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I recently added a small and somewhat uncommon model (2023, 1/2" x 13/32") to my Williams obstruction wrench collection, found on my hands and knees pawing through the lowest layer on a Roto-Bin at a used tool buy/sell store. See Pics 1 & 2. These are fugly finish wrenches, but I take 'em as I get 'em, 'cuz they are not easy to find in the wild. Shown with the rest of the collection (2727, 2028-S, 2729, and 2731-A) in Pics 3 & 4. All Chrome-Moly Superenches.

 

[Cruzan80]

Quick question re. flex ratchets:

To tighten the head flopping, are these the same as the Snap-on 830 series, where you simply peen the bolt running thru the forks? Just got one in trade, and want to tighten down the head movement a bit. Would like a bit of stiff-ness, almost want it to stay put under gravity.

 

[d42jeep]

I found a couple of Williams ratchets at an estate sale today. The 1/2” drive ratchet is in the evaporust but I spent some time on cleaning up the 3/4” drive.
-Don

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Snagged some deep sockets on ebay

 

[d42jeep]

I received a care package from Username yesterday that included what has to be an incredibly rare 3/4” drive Williams plug that is a perfect match for the ratchet I picked up recently. Thanks again!
-Don

 

[Username already in use]

That one was rode hard, but I will ALWAYS pick up a drive plug at the flea. I was shocked to see the Williams on it when i found it. Glad it went to a good home.

 

[NYBODYMAN]

Picked up a haul of stuff today for cheap (see my post in the garage sale thread). A few SuperWrenches, a WIlliams 1/2" T-Handle, and a 1/4" JH Williams ratchet (top right)

 

[genog]

Got these recently from a dear friend

 

[Username already in use]

I found this 5/8" Williams branded combo this past weekend. First one of this style I've seen and it seems very similar to the Moore Drop Forging made Craftsman =V= combos.
Thoughts?

 

[d42jeep]

Here are comparison pictures of =v= wrenches of the same size. They look mighty similar to me right down to the shape of the raised pad.
-Don

 

[SkyPuncher]

Just some info on those Williams - From Alloy Artifacts

The Raised-Panel Style​

Some time around the mid 1950s Williams adopted a raised-panel style for some of their wrenches, in particular the box-end and combination wrenches. This style featured raised panels on both sides of the shank, with highly polished panel faces and box ends.


The raised-panel style is illustrated in catalog No. 302 from around 1956, and the same catalog shows open-end wrenches in the "ribbed" style. (See the 1729 Ribbed Open-End Wrench for an example.)


The raised-panel style was in production for only a relatively brief period and was soon replaced by the flat-shank style. (See the later section on the Flat-Shank Superrenches for examples.) By 1959 the combination wrenches were shown in catalog No. 503 in the new flat-shank style, and by 1960 the catalog No. 504 was showing the box wrenches with flat shanks as well. Based on these catalog references, the manufacturing dates for the raised-panel style are approximately 1954-1958 for combination wrenches and 1954-1959 for box wrenches.


As might be expected from the short production period, wrenches in the raised-panel style are relatively uncommon.

 

[Username already in use]

Thanks Don. Maybe I should cross post it over to the Crowntop thread?

Edit: Thanks for the info @SkyPuncher

 

[four.cycle]

Maybe this is a stupid question - I don't know anything at all about Williams - but why would a tool manufacturer make new dies and tool up to produce a wrench that was a dead-on lookalike of a contemporaneous product being made by a competitor? For only four years?

That doesn't make sense.

Judge Judy 101: "If it doesn't make sense, it can't be true."

 

[SkyPuncher]

Not sure it helps but Williams did make certain tools for Craftsman throughout the years, but I don't think wrenches.

 

[Username already in use]

Maybe this is a stupid question - I don't know anything at all about Williams - but why would a tool manufacturer make new dies and tool up to produce a wrench that was a dead-on lookalike of a contemporaneous product being made by a competitor? For only four years?

That doesn't make sense.

Judge Judy 101: "If it doesn't make sense, it can't be true."

Pretty much exactly what I was thinking. Makes no sense to forge a near identical wrench.

 

[four.cycle]

^ Exactly. Those guys who make the dies don't work cheap. That's a major investment tooling up to make a different design tool.
Why on earth would they do that? Doesn't make sense. Makes even less sense when you scroll up and down that page at Alloy-Artifacts and look at the various other patterns/designs Williams was using during that same era on wrenches.

Maybe I'm crazy and I have a wild imagination, but I'd say "outsourced from MDF".

Just my two cents.

(* FTR: I've disagreed with Judge Judy on a lot of her rulings, but on the "doesn't make sense" thing - she is absolutely correct. *)

 

[SkyPuncher]

Here is a quick, easy to get to example I have of a Williams and Williams made Craftsman 8 in 1 wrench.

 

[Username already in use]

@SkyPuncher interesting. So, I suppose it’s plausible that Williams was making some combos for Craftsman. Perhaps the contract with Sears stipulated a wrench that looked identical to what Moore was producing for them.

 

[four.cycle]

^ I'd be real curious about what kind of forging marks we'd find on those two pieces Sky Puncher posted.

Off the top of my head, it's easy to believe that Sears would outsource an oddball item like that from an alternate supplier - they bought one item from Midwest - the "Adjust-a-Box" wrench.

It's difficult to believe that Williams would tool up to produce an item identical to that of a competitor's, put their own name on it, and produce it for only four years.

 

[SkyPuncher]

four.cycle, yep they did outsource those oddballs for sure and that is one of them! It's to bad better records where not kept for all the dealings back in the day, but they probably never would've imagined there would be nerds like us interested!

 

[genog]

I helped a friend of mine organize a future Estate Sale.

There was a fair amount of Williams stuff.
Big Superwrenches (1-1/16" and up), the biggest ones were gigantic
Screwdrivers, which I haven't seen Williams screwdrivers before

Punches and chisels which, I guess a person can't have enough of, so I grabbed a few along with some Protos

 

[genog]

A friend of mine really liked Williams tools
He had quite a few which were all users
Here's one of his hammers which I found to be kinda cool