Bad result of code violations?.....with pictures.

[jtbinvalrico]

Skip to the pictures for the carnage.....come back up for the story if interested.

House was built 6 years ago and the pool was done at the same time. Fast forward to this week and every time the heater (Pentair UtlraTemp 110 heat pump) runs, it pops a breaker after about 5 hours of running, sometimes longer. I call the Pentair tech out. All the equipment checks out - capacitor is good, amp draw when running is within spec. I tell him it's strange that the whole thing runs for hours, but throws a breaker after the heat has been on a while - maybe a loose connection somewhere. He checks a few connections at the breakers and all looks tight.....We now have the most maddening of problems: intermittent and difficult to reproduce.

The tech says he has to pass it off to the electrician. No problem. This morning I have another look at the whole pad and wall, and think to myself that there's no way they shoved all those wires into this little plastic box - and why would they to begin with. Shouldn't this have been a straight shot from the pool pad breaker panel to the main in the garage? So I remove the cover off this 4" box.....looks like a damn car fire in there. Three of the four wires compromised. One of the hot wires baked all the way open and half the copper strands broken and splayed out. The pictures tell the tale.

I begin to triage and consider how to fix this - it's Florida hot, we leave town in four days, the dog is running around with a post-op cone on its head, and I gotta go back to work tomorrow. As I noodle the details, the wife finds an electrician (known, legit local outfit) who will be here in 1/2 an hour. The guy's eyes open wide when he sees the carnage. After assessing it, he tells me that a 60 amp breaker feeding 4 gauge wires (about a 100' run) is too small for a combination of the pool pump, heat pump, the blower for the hot tub, and whatever it takes to the electronics board and valves. But it ran for almost 6 years? He tells me undersized wiring, cycling on and off, with that load over the years took its toll.

Cramming all those wires in this little box can't be correct.....I don't know about the 4 gauge over that distance with that load. The electrician says it would be correct if the pool was heated with gas instead of a heat pump. The wife is uninterested in the several days I would spend pondering, solving, fixing, etc.....She wants it done pronto. What do they say, "good, fast, cheap.....pick two?" Running new wire, upgrading to 2 gauge from the main in the garage through the attic and whatever else needs to be done: I'll take good and fast for $4600.00. Ouch.

 

[mike93lx]

Holy ****.

Did the sparky look at the nameplates to determine needs or did he just decide it is undersized?
Based on the condition of that wire, I would tear it all out anyway, so upsizing is relatively easy at that point, but 4600 feels strong. Get a 2nd quote.

That feels like the "you want to swim this spring, right?" price

 

[Jeepster04]

Ehh..... I know people get annoyed when people say it, but I agree with mike.... $4600 sure seems steep.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

wow that j box is way too small for whats in it

 

[Innovate1]

You didn't say but it looks like copper wire. For copper #4 at 60A and 100' gives only 1.5% drop at 230V. That should be fine. Maybe a loose connector caused the overheating. Unless you need more than 60A I don't think the wire size is the issue. I also noticed the wires were wrapped with tape - looks like an attempt to salvage overheated wires at some previous time. What's the wire look like at the other end of the run or in the breaker box?

 

[rlitman]

Current is the same on both legs for a 240V load (yeah, I do see the one single pole breaker), yet the pictures clearly show one Polaris connector was badly cooking off everything around it. I suspect it wasn't properly torqued from day one.

 

[LXCam]

That isn’t undersized conductors. That stems from bad connections. Had your technician actually tested the voltage while under load he’d have seen the voltage drop at the equipment side.

And you need a new electrician too, he’s a *******

 

[tdkkart]

Too many wires in a small box, questionable screw-clamp splices, a bit of salt air causing some corrosion, not to mention probably some chlorine thrown in, then add some heat. Ding!! fries are done.
It's really no mystery to me why there's problems. The only thing that could have been worse would have been a few wire nuts thrown in the mix.

 

[tdkkart]

Appears, based on painted vs unpainted, there may have been some retro-fitting there recently, and I'm guessing they came up short on wire, which explains why they put in a junction less than 3ft from the ultimate termination point.
There's been trouble here before........

 

[Bert_]

Guessing a different panel was installed at some point? Just looking at the top painted conduit vs everything else unpainted. I would assume that's the reason why it got spliced.

It was definitely a connection issue not wire size. The ends of the wire are crispy but a couple inches away it looks better.

 

[jtbinvalrico]

The pool came with the house. Based on watching the build every week and the photo below, it looks like the electricians ran the wire from the main panel out to the pool pad and terminated it in that little box with the expectation that the pool builder would pick it up from there. That conduit running down the side of the house and that little box are buried in the stucco and painted. That explains the apparent distinction from there on as the wiring and conduits go and why it's not an uninterrupted run from the main panel to the pool panel.

My electrician looked at the data plates (photos below) on the pool equipment and suggested that the 4 gauge was too small.....I'm not sure if it makes much difference at this point. I have no confidence in the existing wire back to the panel and the unnecessary splices in the run, so its getting replaced with a home run. Insisting on 4 gauge vs following his recommendation for 2 gauge won't pull zeros off the estimate. Besides, I'd like to add a salt water generator at some point, so I'll never regret having the extra headroom.

It's definitely a case of "fast and good", and I'm paying through the nose for it. If I had time to shop prices I'd do it myself. If this scenario had revealed itself a couple months ago, I would've been able to source the wire, get good advice from you guys, pull a permit, wait for a permit, etc.....I just don't have the time. I've done this job before - you guys helped me get my 100 amp subpanel up in my shop, permit and all. It's frustrating knowing I could do this job for a fraction of that cost. But I need it done and they can do it all this week.

However, the house was built 6 years ago.....We have a 10 year builder's warranty. In my mind, this is the fault of the pool contractor. They're the ones who supplied the pool equipment and connected their pool panel to the wires run out to the pool pad by the electricians. I'm going to contact both the builder and the pool contractor with a letter and pictures. What do you think? I don't like that the electricians left such a small little box to make the splices in - they had to have known that connections would be made there. But I really don't like that the pool contractor knowingly made the connections, crammed them in that box and buttoned it up. Maybe when the math is done, 4 gauge is sufficient. But the math also limits box fill and requires these connections to be properly tightened.

 

[Norcal]

According to the data plate, 8 AWG THWN with a 70A breaker would have been fine, 42A minimum circuit amperes & 70A maximum overcurrent protection.

 

[jtbinvalrico]

According to the data plate, 8 AWG THWN with a 70A breaker would have been fine, 42A minimum circuit amperes & 70A maximum overcurrent protection.

That mess of burned up wires in the little box feeds the subpanel to the right of it and powers everything on the pad: pump, heat pump, blower, lights.....Seems that if it had been a quality 4 gauge run from the main panel to the pool subpanel with no garbage splices, this wouldn't have happened.

 

[jbfsr]

I would mount a new larger junction box higher up on the wall. 18" up, the wire might be ok. Then run new from new junction box.

 

[Jim greengo]

Loose connection,and 10lbs of **** in a 5lb bag.
Who signed off on the electrical inspection?

 

[Jim greengo]

I would mount a new larger junction box higher up on the wall. 18" up, the wire might be ok. Then run new from new junction box.

I'd pull every inch of it out of there myself.
From panel to sub panel.

 

[jtbinvalrico]

I would mount a new larger junction box higher up on the wall. 18" up, the wire might be ok. Then run new from new junction box.

That was my first thought....but I have no confidence in what I can't see and no time to troubleshoot it. At my old house, I got to the point where I wasn't surprised to see 30 years of prior owners' work behind the walls that routinely turned 30 minute jobs into day-long jobs. This is my first new-build house, and I have to say I'm sometimes not impressed with what I find.

Loose connection,and 10lbs of **** in a 5lb bag.
Who signed off on the electrical inspection?

When I permitted my garage subpanel, I followed the advice I got here and the NEC code. The inspector showed up, looked at one of my neatly prepared open boxes, didn't look at or open anything else, and signed off. Here, at least, there's little in place to ensure good work.

I'd pull every inch of it out of there myself.
From panel to sub panel.

Yup.

 

[Innovate1]

If it really is just an overheated splice (and it certainly seems to be) and there is a bit of slack on the other end (or maybe add a little in the box at the other end) you could pull it a bit and see if the rest of the wire looks good. If so you could cut back the burned ends and resplice as a temp fix. Then you would have more time to get supplies and redo things. Looks like you are maxing out the 60A supply so may need to up the 60A breaker a bit. Especially with adding more items. Unless there is some reason all the equipment can't run at the same time.

 

[sparky 1971]

This is just a guess, but the original electrical contractor probably intended for the junction box to come off the wall, maybe also shorten up the conduit to the next coupling back, and the panel mount in its place. Why the pool contractor did it that, nobody will ever know. It's too late now.

 

[mike93lx]

This is just a guess, but the original electrical contractor probably intended for the junction box to come off the wall and the panel mount in its place. Why the pool contractor did it that, nobody will ever know. It's too late now.

Looks like the pump would have obstructed access.

I bet the equipment was all placed by the plumber then the electrician came in after and got stuck with that layout

 

[yatg]

Who signed off on the electrical inspection?

The pool boy.

 

[sparky 1971]

Looks like the pump would have obstructed access.

I bet the equipment was all placed by the plumber then the electrician came in after and got stuck with that layout

I doubt any of the pool equipment would have been there yet. Maybe so, and that's why the box got installed. Either way, that box wasn't part of the original plan.

 

[Half-fast eddie]

“Dear pool contractor … see the attached pictures? … my lawyer will be in touch with you”.

 

[mike93lx]

I doubt any of the pool equipment would have been there yet. Maybe so, and that's why the box got installed. Either way, that box wasn't part of the original plan.

I was referring to why they didn't tie the sub into the conduit run

 

[jtbinvalrico]

If it really is just an overheated splice (and it certainly seems to be) and there is a bit of slack on the other end (or maybe add a little in the box at the other end) you could pull it a bit and see if the rest of the wire looks good. If so you could cut back the burned ends and resplice as a temp fix. Then you would have more time to get supplies and redo things. Looks like you are maxing out the 60A supply so may need to up the 60A breaker a bit. Especially with adding more items. Unless there is some reason all the equipment can't run at the same time.

I thought about this - a way to run just the pump until I had time to sort the rest. Plenty of merit in this idea.....If we weren't leaving town for 10 days and if I wouldn't spend every second worrying about unseen wires and unknowns.....It's fine. I'm fortunate to have saved so much over the years with DIY brake jobs, plumbing, and electrical that I can cover this easily. I gotta throw something in the pot from time to time. I'll make some effort in contacting the builders to see if they'll cover some of it. If not, I'll lodge the appropriate complaints, etc.....blah, blah, life goes on.

It's all a cautionary tale: Never take a clean looking box for granted. And I'm reminded here that it's so often the basics - grounds and shorts. I at least give myself a pat on the back for finding the problem after the first guy gave up.

 

[75gmck25]

Wouldn't this this code requirement apply for your 4 AWG wire junctions?
- Boxes and conduit bodies enclosing conductors 4 AWG or larger (under 600V) must be installed in accordance with the requirements in 314.28.
- For straight pulls, 314.28(A)(1) requires that the length of the box be at least eight times the trade size of the largest raceway.

Since that appears to be 1" conduit and a straight pull, it seems like you would need a minimum of an 8" x8" box for the junction. Or am I missing something?

 

[jtbinvalrico]

Great point.....I'm taking pictures of it all and I'm going to save that length of conduit and the box from the soffit down. The electricians will be here Tuesday and part of their plan is to drop conduit down from the soffit directly into the top of the pool sub panel on the exterior wall - what should have been done to begin with.

I'm gathering all this to present to the pool contractor and the builder. So please, feel free to point out the code violations and what should have been done here. I knew right away that the box-fill rules weren't followed. Any other information will help. I intend to ask these people to cover these costs. If I get any push-back I'll take it up the appropriate chains, document accordingly, and follow it where it leads me.

*Fixed the title of this thread…

 

[wyliesdiesels]

whoever installed that mess should be fixing it for free.... if 2 trades installed it, make them fix it together....FOR FREE

 

[wyliesdiesels]

That mess of burned up wires in the little box feeds the subpanel to the right of it and powers everything on the pad: pump, heat pump, blower, lights.....Seems that if it had been a quality 4 gauge run from the main panel to the pool subpanel with no garbage splices, this wouldn't have happened.

i think Norcal was thinking this only fed the heater, and he would be correct on the sizing if that were the case...

 

[Norcal]

i think Norcal was thinking this only fed the heater, and he would be correct on the sizing if that were the case...

I was.

 

[jtbinvalrico]

whoever installed that mess should be fixing it for free.... if 2 trades installed it, make them fix it together....FOR FREE

That’s my intention. Unfortunately, contacting and going rounds with these people is going to take time - the money I’m paying the electrician buys me a safe fix and the time I need to deal with these companies…..Furthermore, having a licensed pro do the work under a permit bolsters my position, although it lightens my wallet a bit in the interim.

I plan to identify to these two companies clear code violations with pictures, carnage, and a professional repair to prove it. I think it’s crystal clear that the pool company erred in making the connections and shoving them into that box….As to the electrician used by the home builder, it appears they used a correct gauge wire - but is the conduit proper? Is using that little box in any way or stage of completion proper? If the pool builder was expected to splice into those wires but use a different, proper box, why stucco and paint the conduit and little box into place to begin with? Was that supposed to be a temporary protection for the 4 gauge while they were doing stucco and before the pool guys got there a couple weeks later?

To be clear, the house and pool were built together, with maybe a few weeks between various trades coming and going. The pool company was the builder’s chosen sub-contractor.

As y’all can see, I need to tidy up my arguments into some concise points….

 

[Half-fast eddie]

To be clear, the house and pool were built together, The pool company was the builder’s chosen sub-contractor.

Clearly there was one person in charge, one person who knew the total scope, and was onligated to properly coordinate.

 

[theoldwizard1]

wow that j box is way too small for whats in it

Your opinion please !

Did the undersized j box cause the problem or the undersized wire or the combination of the two ?

 

[Toomanytools?]

That’s my intention. Unfortunately, contacting and going rounds with these people is going to take time - the money I’m paying the electrician buys me a safe fix and the time I need to deal with these companies…..Furthermore, having a licensed pro do the work under a permit bolsters my position, although it lightens my wallet a bit in the interim.

I plan to identify to these two companies clear code violations with pictures, carnage, and a professional repair to prove it. I think it’s crystal clear that the pool company erred in making the connections and shoving them into that box….As to the electrician used by the home builder, it appears they used a correct gauge wire - but is the conduit proper? Is using that little box in any way or stage of completion proper? If the pool builder was expected to splice into those wires but use a different, proper box, why stucco and paint the conduit and little box into place to begin with? Was that supposed to be a temporary protection for the 4 gauge while they were doing stucco and before the pool guys got there a couple weeks later?

To be clear, the house and pool were built together, with maybe a few weeks between various trades coming and going. The pool company was the builder’s chosen sub-contractor.

As y’all can see, I need to tidy up my arguments into some concise points….

I have my doubts you will get very far with the previous contractors, especially after you have gone and fixed the problem. That said it doesn't hurt to try. Make sure to get the present electrician to write down what he saw as the problem or code violation(s), why things failed. Good luck hope it works out.

 

[Half-fast eddie]

I have my doubts you will get very far with the previous contractors, especially after you have gone and fixed the problem

If thevproblem had not been promptly corrected, the house could have burned down.

 

[rlitman]

If thevproblem had not been promptly corrected, the house could have burned down.

Maybe. Years ago I had a neighbor who had a similar failure in their power mast. They lost a bunch of siding, as did their neighbors, but thankfully the house didn't burn down, though it could have had nobody called the fire department as soon as they did.

 

[mike93lx]

If thevproblem had not been promptly corrected, the house could have burned down.

That doesn't mean they will pay for it.

 

[Bucko]

I have my doubts you will get very far with the previous contractors, especially after you have gone and fixed the problem. That said it doesn't hurt to try. Make sure to get the present electrician to write down what he saw as the problem or code violation(s), why things failed. Good luck hope it works out.

My thoughts as well. The pool builder is likely no longer in business or changed his LLC a few times since that pool was done. If the pool was part of the total home build and fell under the umbrella of the builder you may have a shot but they will try and say someone must have messed with it after it was done. You would need documented proof that the wire was undersized not just a educated guess from the sparky wanting to get $4600 from you.

 

[jtbinvalrico]

Both companies are still in business. Both are large known outfits that have been in business for a long time here. I documented the build from day one. I have an extensive file of photographs of all stages of construction showing things as they were then and as they are today: Unchanged.

Fair question on the wire size....But my position centers on the role both entities played in shoving all that wire into that small box. They would no doubt point fingers at each other. They would no doubt assert that the wire was correctly sized. They would likely say they should have had the opportunity to fix it.

If the filter pump could run independently, I'd have no problem simply shutting down the heater and associated breaker and letting them noodle and pick it apart......But the filter pump is connected via the pool subpanel to that one set of 4 gauge wires from the main panel 100 feet away, and it shares that with the heater and other equipment. There's no scenario where I can safely run just the filter pump while things drag out....Could I shut it all down, let the pool turn green and fix that later? No: Green soupy pools are a code violation here.....Could I drain the pool and give everyone time to ponder it? No: Fixing a popped pool would make all this look like a cake walk.

Perhaps they'll tell me to pound sand.....One thing my $4600 gets me is time. With the pool up and running, with no smoldering small fire in a plastic box on the side of my house, with the County and HOA not fining me over a green pool, with no popped pool disaster on the horizon.....I've got time to contact a lot of entities and people. Someone will have to decide if doing the right thing here is a sound business decision or not. After they do the job tomorrow I'm in no rush.

 

[Bucko]

Both companies are still in business. Both are large known outfits that have been in business for a long time here. I documented the build from day one. I have an extensive file of photographs of all stages of construction showing things as they were then and as they are today: Unchanged.

Fair question on the wire size....But my position centers on the role both entities played in shoving all that wire into that small box. They would no doubt point fingers at each other. They would no doubt assert that the wire was correctly sized. They would likely say they should have had the opportunity to fix it.

If the filter pump could run independently, I'd have no problem simply shutting down the heater and associated breaker and letting them noodle and pick it apart......But the filter pump is connected via the pool subpanel to that one set of 4 gauge wires from the main panel 100 feet away, and it shares that with the heater and other equipment. There's no scenario where I can safely run just the filter pump while things drag out....Could I shut it all down, let the pool turn green and fix that later? No: Green soupy pools are a code violation here.....Could I drain the pool and give everyone time to ponder it? No: Fixing a popped pool would make all this look like a cake walk.

Perhaps they'll tell me to pound sand.....One thing my $4600 gets me is time. With the pool up and running, with no smoldering small fire in a plastic box on the side of my house, with the County and HOA not fining me over a green pool, with no popped pool disaster on the horizon.....I've got time to contact a lot of entities and people. Someone will have to decide if doing the right thing here is a sound business decision or not. After they do the job tomorrow I'm in no rush.

I'm totally with you on getting it taken care of and not having it hanging over you.

Try and get your electrician to write up a very detailed bill. Hopefully he will put things in like undersized wire used, too many wires in the junction box, code requirements would be a plus. Since you are going for a complete new run, try to have him disconnect the line from the sub panel and the main panel so you can save the "evidence" intact.