germanwrenchguy
Active member
Looking at this Stahlwille ratchet. Noticed it doesn’t say Germany on the picture.
does anyone know if this ratchet is german made?
does anyone know if this ratchet is german made?
Stahlwille 515 Ratchet coo
- Thread starter germanwrenchguy
- Start date
KnurledNut
Well-known member
KCToolCo claims it is. The older one with the black handle had it stamped on the back of the ratchet. Not sure why they would remove it, but it sure does raise a hair.
www.kctool.com
Stahlwille 515 Fine Tooth Ratchet, 1/2" Drive | Stahlwille at KC Tool
Stahlwille 515 Fine Tooth Ratchet, 1/2" Drive Reversible 60 teeth, with 6 degree return angle 2-component handle DIN 3122/ISO 3315...
www.kctool.com
Dave455
Well-known member
Just a quick “heads up” guys - the German regulations regarding country of origin are not as strict as you might think.
I have some Saltus ratcheting wrenches (Sold by Saltus, not flex heads) that say “Saltus Germany” on them, despite clearly being made by Kabo in Taiwan which Saltus Confirmed. This is apparently quite legal in Germany.
I have some regular combination wrenches made by Saltus in Germany, and they actually say “Made in Germany”.
So, you have to be careful of the exact wording.
I suspect however, that the Stahlwille ratchet is German made. I have quite a bit, and it all is (except ratcheting wrenches, which are protected by patent).
I have some Saltus ratcheting wrenches (Sold by Saltus, not flex heads) that say “Saltus Germany” on them, despite clearly being made by Kabo in Taiwan which Saltus Confirmed. This is apparently quite legal in Germany.
I have some regular combination wrenches made by Saltus in Germany, and they actually say “Made in Germany”.
So, you have to be careful of the exact wording.
I suspect however, that the Stahlwille ratchet is German made. I have quite a bit, and it all is (except ratcheting wrenches, which are protected by patent).
The_Inspector
Well-known member
Some of the Hazet tools are manufactured in Slovenia (their screwdrivers are from Oplast) So wouldn't be surprised they outsource some of their tools to be made in this plant
Dave455
Well-known member
I think that if it says “Made in Germany”, that is beyond doubt.
If it just says “Germany” then it might or might not. Under U.K. law this would be deemed “misleading” if it wasn’t, but I understand this is acceptable under German regs!
All my Stahlwille ratchets have been clearly marked “Made in Germany” on the packing, so I would be surprised if any are not.
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This type of Ratchet does indeed have the MiG on the underside.
German law is indeed quite lax when it comes to COO, You actually only need to produce 51% of a Tools "Worth" in the country. However, just assembling it (Like in this instance, fitting the handle) wouldn´t be enough. When it comes to ratchets, building only some parts oversea would probably not make too much sense, since you still need some of the heavy machinery, still need to pay (expensive) German workers, and have to ship heavy parts around the world. Hence I find it quite unlikely that stuff like socketry makes use of this loophole.
Now when it comes to "Germany" on its own, it will stand for MiG, but there are exceptions, brands can have the Word in their name, and also put it on their tools, albeit in the exact same spot as in the logo. To be honest, those are usually those tools that scream cheap imported ****, but it is definitely deceiving.
Yes there are definitely black sheep among german brands, like Saltus. I´ve done quite a bit of research on them, their pliers sporting "GERMANY" are definitely MiG, made by OTRA, a small German manufacturer. Everything else seems to be imported though, the wrenches don´t even look close to what the actual ones from Solingen looked like. But too be fair, they don´t even have a proper website, and seem to be only sold by one shop, so this might be some shady stuff altogether.
When it comes to the German big three, Wille, Gedore & Hazet, Stahlwille seems to me like they care most about where their products are made. Their Screwdrivers for example are made by Witte rather than cheap Slowenian Oplast (Although they have some imported stuff in their Portfolio, like the ratcheting screwdrivers).
Gedore ships some of their socket sets with sockets from their factory in South africa, Hazet charges way too much much for their name, even on cheapo stuff like their Oplast drivers, so I usually go with team green (Plus, their chrome is the best of the three).
//Btw, I have been reading on this forum for quite a while, just couldn´t get myself to sign in, but this topic gave me a reason to share what I´ve found from German forums
German law is indeed quite lax when it comes to COO, You actually only need to produce 51% of a Tools "Worth" in the country. However, just assembling it (Like in this instance, fitting the handle) wouldn´t be enough. When it comes to ratchets, building only some parts oversea would probably not make too much sense, since you still need some of the heavy machinery, still need to pay (expensive) German workers, and have to ship heavy parts around the world. Hence I find it quite unlikely that stuff like socketry makes use of this loophole.
Now when it comes to "Germany" on its own, it will stand for MiG, but there are exceptions, brands can have the Word in their name, and also put it on their tools, albeit in the exact same spot as in the logo. To be honest, those are usually those tools that scream cheap imported ****, but it is definitely deceiving.
Yes there are definitely black sheep among german brands, like Saltus. I´ve done quite a bit of research on them, their pliers sporting "GERMANY" are definitely MiG, made by OTRA, a small German manufacturer. Everything else seems to be imported though, the wrenches don´t even look close to what the actual ones from Solingen looked like. But too be fair, they don´t even have a proper website, and seem to be only sold by one shop, so this might be some shady stuff altogether.
When it comes to the German big three, Wille, Gedore & Hazet, Stahlwille seems to me like they care most about where their products are made. Their Screwdrivers for example are made by Witte rather than cheap Slowenian Oplast (Although they have some imported stuff in their Portfolio, like the ratcheting screwdrivers).
Gedore ships some of their socket sets with sockets from their factory in South africa, Hazet charges way too much much for their name, even on cheapo stuff like their Oplast drivers, so I usually go with team green (Plus, their chrome is the best of the three).
//Btw, I have been reading on this forum for quite a while, just couldn´t get myself to sign in, but this topic gave me a reason to share what I´ve found from German forums
The_Inspector
Well-known member
I've got quite some collection of German tools (Being Dutch, German tools are relative cheap here compared to lets say Snap On) I really like Hazet for the wrenches and ratchets, more then Wille, just feels more finished. I don't like their screwdrivers though. Like you said they are cheaply made Oplast, rather have Wera for just a bit more. I read on some German forums Stahlwille also outsources some parts to Taiwan (guy who works at Stahlwille), apparently steel and the rough shaping is cheaper over there after it will be shipped to Germany for final finish.
I have read the post regarding the outsourcing at well a time ago, and to be honest, I can´t say for sure if it´s fake. Might absolutely possible, but I kind of doubt they could keep something like that a secret? (Especially with the obsession over COO some Tool-nerds have)
But I´ve done a little digging, Stahlwille themself claim "100% made in G.", but as we know they sell some rebranded items like their ratcheting spanners, which are clearly made in Taiwan, so this statement might not be all that trustworthy.
On the other hand, when you take a look at their locations, they have a factory that goes under "SWM Werkzeugfabrik" where their VBW pliers are produced. (There is a really cool video from "Sendung mit der Maus", a German educational show aimed at kids, which shows how they produce their pliers, beginning from a hunk of steel). And when you enter their website, you´l find this:
Which basically translates to: SWM uses exclusevly steel from european Steel mills
And if we click one slide ahead, we see this:
Which seems like a Stahlwille 13 wrench. So I´d dare say the person stating Taiwan as COO was just a troll.
But I´ve done a little digging, Stahlwille themself claim "100% made in G.", but as we know they sell some rebranded items like their ratcheting spanners, which are clearly made in Taiwan, so this statement might not be all that trustworthy.
On the other hand, when you take a look at their locations, they have a factory that goes under "SWM Werkzeugfabrik" where their VBW pliers are produced. (There is a really cool video from "Sendung mit der Maus", a German educational show aimed at kids, which shows how they produce their pliers, beginning from a hunk of steel). And when you enter their website, you´l find this:
Which basically translates to: SWM uses exclusevly steel from european Steel mills
And if we click one slide ahead, we see this:
Which seems like a Stahlwille 13 wrench. So I´d dare say the person stating Taiwan as COO was just a troll.
And those Slovenia screwdrivers are kind of **** IMO. Spend your money on Vessel or anything else really.
Dave455
Well-known member
I own some of those drivers.
Oplast are quite a major screwdriver manufacturer, and like any such firm, they offer different grades of tool, as do Hazet.
Yes, the very cheapest Hazet screwdrivers are ”generic” Oplast that have been rebranded. They’re not top end, but neither is the price. I think the last I saw were about €12, for a set of six, so you get what you pay for.
The better grades of screwdriver, such as the “Trinamic” are different entirely, They’re also made in Slovenia, but they’re really quite decent. Hard handles, very decent steel in the blades, very nicely forged and ground, and the design is unique to Hazet
Here are some of mine. They’re nice to use and have proved durable. Are they as good as the previous yellow handled tools? Maybe not, but then little is!
The_Inspector
Well-known member
I guess you could be right, trolls everywhere. Still I think Willie and Hazet make amazing quality tools, even if they make them in Taiwan I would still buy themI have read the post regarding the outsourcing at well a time ago, and to be honest, I can´t say for sure if it´s fake. Might absolutely possible, but I kind of doubt they could keep something like that a secret? (Especially with the obsession over COO some Tool-nerds have)
But I´ve done a little digging, Stahlwille themself claim "100% made in G.", but as we know they sell some rebranded items like their ratcheting spanners, which are clearly made in Taiwan, so this statement might not be all that trustworthy.
On the other hand, when you take a look at their locations, they have a factory that goes under "SWM Werkzeugfabrik" where their VBW pliers are produced. (There is a really cool video from "Sendung mit der Maus", a German educational show aimed at kids, which shows how they produce their pliers, beginning from a hunk of steel). And when you enter their website, you´l find this:
Which basically translates to: SWM uses exclusevly steel from european Steel mills
And if we click one slide ahead, we see this:
Which seems like a Stahlwille 13 wrench. So I´d dare say the person stating Taiwan as COO was just a troll.
Ditto on Hazet. I don't own any of the cheap ones but their impact ones are amazing. And they have taken a lot of beating and abuse, the flat ones used as a chisel with 1.5kgr sledgehammer. And the phillips ones fit very well. You have to buy the ph3 separately though, not in the kit.I own some of those drivers.
Oplast are quite a major screwdriver manufacturer, and like any such firm, they offer different grades of tool, as do Hazet.
Yes, the very cheapest Hazet screwdrivers are ”generic” Oplast that have been rebranded. They’re not top end, but neither is the price. I think the last I saw were about €12, for a set of six, so you get what you pay for.
The better grades of screwdriver, such as the “Trinamic” are different entirely, They’re also made in Slovenia, but they’re really quite decent. Hard handles, very decent steel in the blades, very nicely forged and ground, and the design is unique to Hazet
Here are some of mine. They’re nice to use and have proved durable. Are they as good as the previous yellow handled tools? Maybe not, but then little is!
Oplast can make some fine screwdrivers, I have a few Unior labelled ones, they will definitely do the job. And while they don´t seem to hold up as well as my PB swiss, they are much cheaper, without being all that worse. Great when working on cheap, rusty fasteners.
Those Hazet look nice as well, especially those with the single component handle. However, to me it is kind of sad that they are using their renowned name to sell cheap, low quality tools, like the 12€ set (according to most amazon reviews I´ve read, never seen one of those tools in person, so I couldn´t know for sure)
Those Hazet look nice as well, especially those with the single component handle
. However, to me it is kind of sad that they are using their renowned name to sell cheap, low quality tools, like the 12€ set (according to most amazon reviews I´ve read, never seen one of those tools in person, so I couldn´t know for sure)Dave455
Well-known member
I totally agree!Oplast can make some fine screwdrivers, I have a few Unior labelled ones, they will definitely do the job. And while they don´t seem to hold up as well as my PB swiss, they are much cheaper, without being all that worse. Great when working on cheap, rusty fasteners.
Those Hazet look nice as well, especially those with the single component handle
I don’t have the Hazet branded €12 driver set, but I do have the Slovenian made Gedore (shown here in a box I keep in one of my vehicles).
They are about the same price, so I suspect may have the same blades, and I have to say they are really not bad. Snap on or PB Swiss quality? Perhaps not! An acceptable “mid price” quality? Definitely!
I’ve actually used these a fair deal now, and they’ve really been fine. Much like gMaxx, I don’t want to use my best drivers on every job. I have several “grades” of screwdriver, and use what’s appropriate!
The_Inspector
Well-known member
Did anyone knew that the Allen key tools are made bij https://www.inbus.de, just found out today. They are like half price as if you were to order them from hazet
Hazet Markup is crazy. They buy their pliers from OrbisWill (which is absolutely fine) but you overpay a lot. like literally twice as much, compared to a brand like Atorn, which sells exactly the same pliers. Oh no, they aren´t the same, Hazet sells the cheapo option (rough surface, no chrome) while Atorn usually sells the polished chrome versions. Unless you really like the colour, I see no reason to buy anything but socketry from them.
Dave455
Well-known member
Yes, it’s fairly obvious from the distinctive shape of the holders that they are made by Inbus.
I seem to recall that this cropped up a while back, and there were some issues with the quality of the Inbus tools. It’s a shame, as I have some Inbus cap screws amongst my stores, and they are first class quality.
Given the easy availability of decent Allen keys (PB Swiss, Wera, Wiha, Bondhus and Eklind all come to mind) I see no reason to buy the Hazet/Inbus.
I suspect however, that a proportion of Hazet customers are commercial buyers who want everything from one place.
You are correct, no tool maker can make all the tools it sells, Hazet is good for sockets, ratchets and wrenches which it produces in house. But the trend is for everyone to offer everything, thats why it *has* to have screwdrivers and pliers.
The fabrication and tooling needed for making sockets/ratchets and wrenches vs screwdrivers vs pliers is completely different.
I would never get a rebranded Hazet pliers, I would get Knipex for slightly lower price and exceptional quality. But as was said, their made by Oplast screwdrivers are good and at decent price, so why not?
Oplast also makes the screwdrivers for Gedore.
Every brand is good at something and never at everything.
Dave455
Well-known member
I think it depends where you are.
From Germany, I’m seeing a small premium over comparable tools, but not huge, and you can probably eliminate that if you opt for the special deals.
I’ve seen the Hazet branded pliers and I wouldn’t describe the finish as rough, in fact it is quite decent. Chrome is an option you can choose. Not everybody wants it. Compared to the Knipex, The Hazet grips are nice, and the heads are polished all over.
Bear in mind, that just because a particular maker manufactures for several brands, it doesn’t mean that all the products are the same. Different customers can choose different quality, depending on their budget.
I’ve seen the Atorn pliers and I wasn’t impressed. They were quite rough. I’m pretty certain they are from a different maker than the Hazet ones, possibly NWS?
Dave455
Well-known member
Yes, all the same company.
They sell the Knipex under their own name, and use Orbis for tools that are being supplied to industrial customers, or under contract to other brands.
The Orbis tools are good quality, but in my experience only offer a small saving compared to the Knipex. If you’re placing a big order, I suspect it’s different.
A lot of British electronics / telecoms suppliers offer Orbis pliers, sometimes in specialist patterns that are obviously made to order.
Sure it´s only like a 9€ difference. But given this price range, that´s still +45%. And if we compare it to pretty much the same pair of pliers (just different finish option), we get +70%
I do think that´s a lot, given that it comes from the same factory, and is supposedly the same product. Might Hazet pay more to get better quality? Maybe? I surely can´t rule it out. But then why not go with Knipex, given they own Orbis, they´d probably not make worse pliers.
Now to be clear, I´ve never seen a pair of Atorn pliers in real life, might order a pair just for fun. Btw, the one you posted is also made by Orbis, just a different product line, supposed to be more optimized.
The_Inspector
Well-known member
I live in Holland and Knipex are cheaper than Hazet or most other premium brands. For now only got pliers from Knipex and Tsunoda, was looking where tool companies outsource their tool making in some occasions. This forum has a lot on knowledgeSure it´s only like a 9€ difference. But given this price range, that´s still +45%. And if we compare it to pretty much the same pair of pliers (just different finish option), we get +70%
I do think that´s a lot, given that it comes from the same factory, and is supposedly the same product. Might Hazet pay more to get better quality? Maybe? I surely can´t rule it out. But then why not go with Knipex, given they own Orbis, they´d probably not make worse pliers.
Now to be clear, I´ve never seen a pair of Atorn pliers in real life, might order a pair just for fun. Btw, the one you posted is also made by Orbis, just a different product line, supposed to be more optimized.
On the first page they even show you what handle types you could order as a reseller.
Dave455
Well-known member
Yes, 9 Euro’s difference, for which you get a slightly different tool, a polished head and a different grip.Sure it´s only like a 9€ difference. But given this price range, that´s still +45%. And if we compare it to pretty much the same pair of pliers (just different finish option), we get +70%
I do think that´s a lot, given that it comes from the same factory, and is supposedly the same product. Might Hazet pay more to get better quality? Maybe? I surely can´t rule it out. But then why not go with Knipex, given they own Orbis, they´d probably not make worse pliers.
Now to be clear, I´ve never seen a pair of Atorn pliers in real life, might order a pair just for fun. Btw, the one you posted is also made by Orbis, just a different product line, supposed to be more optimized.
On the first page they even show you what handle types you could order as a reseller.
Is it worth it? Only the customer can decide, but at least he has a choice.
Bear in mind also, that in the U.K. and Europe we are relatively spoilt regarding choices. We have the option of getting “similar” products to big brand names, at lower prices (provided we know about them - Garage Journal is a big help) but in some countries there may not be the choice!
Edit - as a matter of interest, most of my newer pliers are Knipex. I find them consistently good quality, and the prices are reasonable, so I’m basically with you on the value issue.
One guy I know with the Hazet is a huge VW bus fan, and Hazet seems to go with VW’s like bacon with eggs! I could tell him that he could get comparable quality for less money, but he’s not going there!
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Dave455
Well-known member
I don’t think you can go very far wrong with either Knipex or Tsunoda. Both are high quality, and reasonably priced in Europe. You could spend much more but not get better tools.I live in Holland and Knipex are cheaper than Hazet or most other premium brands. For now only got pliers from Knipex and Tsunoda, was looking where tool companies outsource their tool making in some occasions. This forum has a lot on knowledge