Dishwasher wiring- Hardwire vs plug?

[billconner]

people are getting dumber

amen! probably not true but sure feels like it.

 

[billconner]

I'm pretty sure every appliance in my home bears the seal of a NRTL, and maintained in a "list" by them, probably tested to a standard written under the auspices of UL. I'm a member of one UL standards technical panel (ANSI/UL 2344-2012 (R2022) - American National Standard for Material Lifts).

Of course none of these are law until a legislative body votes them to be.

 

[sparky 1971]

I'm pretty sure every appliance in my home bears the seal of a NRTL, and maintained in a "list" by them, probably tested to a standard written under the auspices of UL. I'm a member of one UL standards technical panel (ANSI/UL 2344-2012 (R2022) - American National Standard for Material Lifts).

Of course none of these are law until a legislative body votes them to be.

I found Intertek and CSA-US, but no UL. My range might be UL, but the wife was making cookies so I didn't bother looking.

 

[billconner]

Do you find what standard CSA-US tested it to? I grabbed our toaster because it was easiest (well - until I had crumbs everywhere) and it was tested by ETL to UL 1026, STANDARD FOR SAFETY FOR ELECTRIC HOUSEHOLD COOKING AND FOOD SERVING APPLIANCES

I don't know all the SDOs (standard developer organizations) but there are many, and I don't know how many of those standards are referenced by building and fire codes, but a long list. And I don't know how much of UL is testing and how much is standards development, but a major player in both.

 

[Jim greengo]

..and there are many other conspiracies.

I've been in business enough years to know everybody has friends,no conspiracy theory.
Some people just have bigger friends in higher places is all. Hahaha

 

[rancherbill]

I've been in business enough years to know everybody has friends,no conspiracy theory.
Some people just have bigger friends in higher places is all. Hahaha

Sad, that you think corruption is the norm and turn a blind eye to it.

 

[rancherbill]

Having been a participant in the process for a long time, not really. I can point to sections of the UBC and LSC that I wrote to get words for and shepparded through the process. I can also point to similar sections by manufactures and contractors and other special interests. Anyone can participate, submitting proposals and comments, speaking in hearings, and holding membership or seats on committees that ultimately vote on changes. It's really a kind of wonderful, democratic process.

So you're telling us that you made the decision. Just because you participated does not mean you made the decision.

I have made lots of presentations at home and my wife makes the decision. hahaha

 

[rancherbill]

Input that involves money changing hands behind closed doors has a lot to do with writing codes.

What a slap in the face for all the people who do this kind of work. My former SIL was on an industry specific group that wrote pipeline related regs and stuff.

You really astound me that you don't blow the whistle on all there CORRUPT people. Please post the names and organizations.

I worked for a company and we dealt with a company that had a crooked buyer. One call to the owner and the buyer was gone. the playing field was leveled.

 

[rancherbill]

The biggest reason is more profit than from the last code cycle. You can believe whatever you want, but there actually are some of us on here that deal with this **** day in and day out and have so for a number of years. (28 in my case). We have seen the evolution of the GFCI and the AFCI, and things might be getting a little safer because people are getting dumber, but they are getting more expensive exponentially compared to the lives that are supposedly saved. They can't hammer us with everything at once, that would be too obvious. But add them in a little at a time, here and there, and before too long, they are everywhere. Why did they wait until 2020 to require GFCI protection for 250 volt rated receptacles in the same places that 120 volt GFCI's are required, along with air conditioners? The answer is money, more of it to be specific.

Have you EVER participated in the process.

I used to rant about government until I got involved. Now my opinion is 100% changed.

 

[Norcal]

Manufacturers have friends in many places.

To sit on a code committee takes a lot of time and money, most people who have a interest in to sit on one, have neither the time nor the money to do so, so most are sponsored by manufacturers or organizations that does have the money to send people to act in their interest, AFCI's added in the 1999 NEC are a good example of skullduggery, they lied as to what they could do, and to this day have made the customers & users the beta test, most tripping in early models was due to the GFCI function then in in them, although at a higher level then the 6 ma in GFCIs, for those and other reasons I still call AFCI's "snake oil". I would have been cool with requiring GFCI's on most residential 120V circuits, as they are reliable & fairly cheap. I have not said dishwasher GFCI's are a bad idea, merely that it was crooked as to how they were included.

In the 2020 NEC the new requirements for GFCI's on A/C condensing units blew up in the NFPA's face, because they never consulted the manufacturers, or UL before adopting the requirement, and functioning while GFCI protected was never part of the standards they were tested to, & the inverters used to comply with government energy standards do not work well with GFCI's, so the equipment installed to code standards would not work, forcing jurisdictions that adopted the 2020 code to remove those requirements, and the reason is was added in the NEC is someone failed to comply with code standards when a A/C unit was installed by failing to properly ground it & some kids were electrocuted by touching it after a fault occurred & the lack of grounding meant the fuses/circuit breaker failed to open, since there was no path back to it's source.

 

[billconner]

So you're telling us that you made the decision. Just because you participated does not mean you made the decision.

No, I did not cast all the committee votes. But I earned the committee's respect and trust, am in fact much more knowledgeable and experienced in the particular subject, and presented well researched proposals. Representing the interests of not for profits probably makes it easier. And I learned a lot from watching the brighter, more highly paid, and better speaking industry representatives who do the same thing.

Of course the codes and standards writing I work on are model codes, and not law until adopted by a legislative body. So I have no part in that decision.

BTW, the code making process is not government. No elected representatives. Participation is voluntary. Some in fact do it as a part of their employment. I'm purely voluntary.

 

[Norcal]

BTW, the code making process is not government. No elected representatives. Participation is voluntary. Some in fact do it as a part of their employment. I'm purely voluntary.

Thank you for bringing that up as it is a important part of the conversation.

 

[sparky 1971]

Have you EVER participated in the process.

No, I have not. Have you?

I used to rant about government until I got involved. Now my opinion is 100% changed.

Obviously, the answer to my question is no because the CMP has nothing to do with government.

 

[sparky 1971]

What a slap in the face for all the people who do this kind of work. My former SIL was on an industry specific group that wrote pipeline related regs and stuff.

This thread has nothing to do with pipelines and the safety aspects of pipelines. It has to do with the fact that the electrical code keeps adding GFCI receptacles in places that they have never been required. Every three years, more are added in the name of "safety".

You really astound me that you don't blow the whistle on all there CORRUPT people. Please post the names and organizations.

I don't have the names of any specific people, but a quick Google search would probably yield results. How about companies instead of organizations. Siemens, Square D, Eaton, GE to name a few. This has nothing to do with corruption. It has everything to do with bottom line profit. There is no whistle to blow, nothing can be done except follow the rules. And do work without a permit.

I worked for a company and we dealt with a company that had a crooked buyer. One call to the owner and the buyer was gone. the playing field was leveled.

I really doubt anyone cares who you worked for, and it also has nothing to do with this topic.

I find it amazing that you really believe all these companies are really concerned about the average citizen. 90% of the GFCI and AFCI rules in the code is all about profit being disguised as safety.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Have you EVER participated in the process.

I used to rant about government until I got involved. Now my opinion is 100% changed.

Ummm this topic has absolutely nothing to do with government. The codes are not written by government agencies bodies or elected reps. If you think they are, then you clearly dont know what youre talking about.

But If you do know that they arent written by government agencies bodies or reps, then why muddy the waters with this comment? It serves no purpose here other than to add confusion to the discussion.

 

[billconner]

The system is not perfect. I recall a new NFPA standard for early streaming lightening protection. Final meeting for full membership to vote on the committees work. Someone had done their homework and distributed a handout showing that everyone on the committee was either on owner of the only manufacturer of these systems or a relative of an owner. Suffice it to say there is no NFPA standard on these systems.

It's a good system with appropriate checks and balances. I'd say much better at representing society than many elected representative bodies.

 

[sparky 1971]

AND, If this safety **** wasn't about money, Leviton wouldn't have started making panels. The story I got in code class was that there was an argument about AFCI's, whether they should be a breaker or wiring device (new construction, I know there are AFCI receptacles.). The breaker manufacturers won out, so the device manufacturers were missing out on a **** ton of money. That is why Leviton started making panels. I haven't seen one, and I wouldn't use one, but they are available. I don't know if anyone else is making panels at this time, but I'm sure it's coming.

 

[rancherbill]

Ummm this topic has absolutely nothing to do with government. The codes are not written by government agencies bodies or elected reps. If you think they are, then you clearly dont know what youre talking about.

But If you do know that they arent written by government agencies bodies or reps, then why muddy the waters with this comment? It serves no purpose here other than to add confusion to the discussion.

What I was referring to is all the people who say that there is nothing but corruption and acquiescing to the profit motives of the companies.

They have never done anything other than ***** and slander the people who do the work.

These bodies are quasi governmental. Specific regulatory functions have been delegated to these bodies. Look up the function and role relating to quasi governmental.

 

[rancherbill]

This thread has nothing to do with pipelines and the safety aspects of pipelines. It has to do with the fact that the electrical code keeps adding GFCI receptacles in places that they have never been required. Every three years, more are added in the name of "safety".

I don't have the names of any specific people, but a quick Google search would probably yield results. How about companies instead of organizations. Siemens, Square D, Eaton, GE to name a few. This has nothing to do with corruption. It has everything to do with bottom line profit. There is no whistle to blow, nothing can be done except follow the rules. And do work without a permit.

It has to do with the integrity of process of setting standards and the comment about my SIL is relevant to the character of the people.

You have made libelous comments about these companies. You really should be specific in your allegations. Please post the minutes from the meeting where they are adding location for devices. I want to see where there is corruption. I suspect there will be reams of technical data and reliablility figures.

 

[rancherbill]

This thread has degenerated into what I call bar talk. When you don't understand the process you quickly get a comfortable explanation and got with it. In this case is that it's all money related.

Another example is everybody know how to run their employers business better. If you have actually done it the phrase "it is much easier to sign the back of the paycheck than the front".

I am out of this thread. I cannot stand the assumption that there is a great conspiracy to only make money for the companies.

 

[sparky 1971]

It has to do with the integrity of process of setting standards and the comment about my SIL is relevant to the character of the people.

Whatever it was your SIL did for the pipeline still has nothing to do with GFCI's, unless the pipeline people are on the electrical code making panel.

You have made libelous comments about these companies. You really should be specific in your allegations. Please post the minutes from the meeting where they are adding location for devices. I want to see where there is corruption. I suspect there will be reams of technical data and reliablility figures.

You seem to know a lot. Why don't you post the minutes from the meetings that prove they are actually all about safety. And you are the one spouting off about corruption.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

What I was referring to is all the people who say that there is nothing but corruption and acquiescing to the profit motives of the companies.

They have never done anything other than ***** and slander the people who do the work.

These bodies are quasi governmental. Specific regulatory functions have been delegated to these bodies. Look up the function and role relating to quasi governmental.

What is quasi governmental? The NFPA is NOT a government agency.... youre just muddying the waters inferring it is

 

[sparky 1971]

This thread has degenerated into what I call bar talk. When you don't understand the process you quickly get a comfortable explanation and got with it. In this case is that it's all money related.

Almost everything is about money. But I do know every inspector that I deal with and am really good friends with two of them, one of whom apprenticed under me, and the other I went to high school with. They go to code meetings and actually get to talk to people on the code making panel while I just have to take the update classes. The instructor for the classes I take has been on a CMP and still communicates with others that still are. He made a career out of being a manufactures rep, (he's retired from that now), so I'm sure when he tells us about how much more money each of the companies he represented made each time the code was changed, he wasn't just blowing smoke.

Another example is everybody know how to run their employers business better. If you have actually done it the phrase "it is much easier to sign the back of the paycheck than the front".

Finally, you have made a statement that is factual. I run a business, so I know all about signing the front of the check vs. the back.

I am out of this thread. I cannot stand the assumption that there is a great conspiracy to only make money for the companies.

Goodbye.


Those assumptions are based on fact. The fact that GFCI protection keeps getting added in places that aren't necessary. A kitchen countertop outlet 12' away from the sink needs GFCI, but another that is 6'1" away and not on the countertop is ok to not have any GFCI? Give me a break. What are the chances that a built in microwave less than 6' away gets dropped into a sink full of water while still plugged in? Garage ceiling receptacles that are switched and intended to be used for lighting need to have GFCI, but hardwire them and it's ok to have a regular circuit? Sump pumps, how many basements have flooded due to a tripped GFCI? I have no idea, but I do know of three, so I would guess the number is in the hundreds, if not thousands. What about a garage or basement freezer? Up until just a few years ago, we could install a single receptacle without GFCI protection in a GFCI specified area just for freezers and refrigerators. Not anymore. I also know of a few people that lost hundreds of dollars worth of groceries due to a tripped GFCI. Before 2020, only unfinished basement receptacles needed GFCI protection, but throw up some sheetrock and the need for a GFCI went away. How come it took until 2020 tp require all basement receptacles to need GFCI protection? It might just have something to do with all of the basements that are getting finished during initial construction and the equipment manufacturers thought they were missing out.

I've already stated that I have no problems with GFCI protection within 6' of a sink and outside and have those in my own home. I also don't care about general use receptacles in a garage, but I don't have any of those.

Another fact is that businesses are in business for one thing and one thing only. To make money. If you don't agree with that, there is no hope for you.

 

[TRWham]

AND, If this safety **** wasn't about money, Leviton wouldn't have started making panels. The story I got in code class was that there was an argument about AFCI's, whether they should be a breaker or wiring device (new construction, I know there are AFCI receptacles.). The breaker manufacturers won out, so the device manufacturers were missing out on a **** ton of money. That is why Leviton started making panels. I haven't seen one, and I wouldn't use one, but they are available. I don't know if anyone else is making panels at this time, but I'm sure it's coming.

You do realize there is also a functional difference here regarding how much of the wiring system is protected? With AFCI breakers, all of the wiring is protected, but with AFCI devices, the cable between the panel and the first device is unprotected. With GFCIs it's not as big a risk, but for arc fault protection, there is some chance that a problem (e.g. an errant nail or a chewing rodent) occurs in that first length of cable and there would be no protection.

 

[TRWham]

New construction guy here.

We are required to have the dishwasher on a gfi.

We are required to have an accessible disconnect for the dishwasher that does not require tools (ie can’t unscrew toe kick panel, unscrew junction box housing, etc).

The solution in my neck of the woods is to provide a gfi outlet in the base cabinet of the sink then use corded plug on the dishwasher.

We been doing it this way now 5-6 years?

Same here for new or renovation. We will provide one receptacle for the DW and another for the disposer, usually each on a separate circuit. Some disposers are on air-switches and some on wall switches. I suppose a wall switch would serve as a disconnect if it were hardwired, but for consistency we still install a receptacle.

I just converted my personal DW to cord and plug when we replaced the ~ 15 year old Kitchen Aid with a new Bosch. For the record, I would say the Bosch somewhat outperforms the KA (Whirlpool) and it was great until the pump seal failed.

 

[sparky 1971]

You do realize there is also a functional difference here regarding how much of the wiring system is protected? With AFCI breakers, all of the wiring is protected, but with AFCI devices, the cable between the panel and the first device is unprotected. With GFCIs it's not as big a risk, but for arc fault protection, there is some chance that a problem (e.g. an errant nail or a chewing rodent) occurs in that first length of cable and there would be no protection.

I totally, completely, 100% understand that even though I don't agree with anything AFCI related. The whole point of that part of my post was to show why device manufacturers, Leviton specifically, got into manufacturing panels. They got into making panels to get in on the scam that is AFCI protection in order to maximize profit. The code changes are all about profit disguised as safety. I thought that was pretty well laid out in the rest of the post.

 

[yatg]

Leviton also got into it so they can sell smart stuff.

The Leviton Smart Load Center

The new load center from Leviton features smart circuit breakers that have Wi-Fi connectivity built in.

www.leviton.com

 

[kayp]

New construction guy here.

We are required to have the dishwasher on a gfi.

We are required to have an accessible disconnect for the dishwasher that does not require tools (ie can’t unscrew toe kick panel, unscrew junction box housing, etc).

The solution in my neck of the woods is to provide a gfi outlet in the base cabinet of the sink then use corded plug on the dishwasher.

We been doing it this way now 5-6 years?

If the dishwasher is on its own breaker, does that count as easy to disconnect? My dishwasher is in my kitchen island so it is hardwired through the floor to the basement (as with the drain), but on its own switch. My new dishwasher has a junction box.

 

[mike93lx]

If the dishwasher is on its own breaker, does that count as easy to disconnect? My dishwasher is in my kitchen island so it is hardwired through the floor to the basement (as with the drain), but on its own switch. My new dishwasher has a junction box.

Unless the panel is within site of the dishwasher, no, but the switch may be sufficient

 

[Norcal]

If the dishwasher is on its own breaker, does that count as easy to disconnect? My dishwasher is in my kitchen island so it is hardwired through the floor to the basement (as with the drain), but on its own switch. My new dishwasher has a junction box.

It needs to be fitted with a breaker lock out in order to be considered a disconnect, so LOTO can be done when servicing, LOTO = Lock Out Tag Out, the chance of a service tech doing LOTO in a residence is slim to none, but still needs to be in place. Every breaker MFG makes them but some makes are easier to find then others.

 

[kayp]

It needs to be fitted with a breaker lock out in order to be considered a disconnect, so LOTO can be done when servicing, LOTO = Lock Out Tag Out, the chance of a service tech doing LOTO in a residence is slim to none, but still needs to be in place. Every breaker MFG makes them but some makes are easier to find then others.

Thanks for replying. Doesn't turning off the breaker switch count as doing that? I don't understand what happens with LOTO that is different from shutting off the power.

 

[mike93lx]

Thanks for replying. Doesn't turning off the breaker switch count as doing that? I don't understand what happens with LOTO that is different from shutting off the power.

It is a lock out... You can prevent it from being turned on again by another person. Flipping a switch does not do that

 

[dave*99]

Thanks for replying. Doesn't turning off the breaker switch count as doing that? I don't understand what happens with LOTO that is different from shutting off the power.

As Mike says it LOCKS.

 

[sparky 1971]

Since it's hardwired there is probably plenty of romex under the dishwasher. Disconnect the romex from the dishwasher and run it into the cabinet next to it (sink if it's there in the island) and into a metal box, mount a receptacle there, (a GFCI if you really want to be code compliant), put a cord on the dishwasher and plug it in. Or leave it as is and worry it. I put a cord on mine because it seems like every four years I'm installing a new DW and was tired of laying on the floor trying to connect the romex in that tiny junction box.

 

[bwringer]

Geez, I sure am glad this conversation didn't turn into some obscure code nerd war...


Anyhoo, last time I got drafted to install a dishwasher, it came with a plug. This honestly seemed like a pretty good idea to me, and so I spent the measly $4.12 or whatever it was for a box and outlet (we had to go back to the home store anyway for plumbing gubbins) and installed that under the sink nice and neat. The instructions didn't say anything about a GFCI, but it's been a few years.

 

[gahrajmahal]

Ok folks, this is a timely thread for me as I am waiting on a delivery of a new dishwasher to replace our approximately 10 year old one. It currently is hard wired and after reading this thread I think I’d like to add a plug and a receptical.

What specifically do you all recommend?

For a box?

For an outlet?

Links and photos would really be appreciated!

 

[sparky 1971]

Ok folks, this is a timely thread for me as I am waiting on a delivery of a new dishwasher to replace our approximately 10 year old one. It currently is hard wired and after reading this thread I think I’d like to add a plug and a receptical.

What specifically do you all recommend?

For a box?

RACO 4" Galvanized Steel Square Electrical Box

The RACO® four-inch two-gang Galvanized Steel Square New Work Box is 1-1/2 inches deep. It features 1/2- and 3/4-inch knockouts for a variety of wiring applications. It's recognized by contractors for its versatility in commercial and residential applications.

www.menards.com

and this

RACO 1-Gang Galvanized Steel 1/2" Raised 4" Square Electrical Box Cover

The RACO 4" Square Exposed Work Cover has one duplex receptacle opening. Includes two nuts to use with your device screws to mount device.

www.menards.com

or this

RACO 1-Gang Galvanized Steel 1/2" Raised 4" Square Electrical Box Cover

The RACO 4" Square Exposed Work Cover has a 1.406-inch diameter receptacle opening. Includes screws to mount device to cover.

www.menards.com

For an outlet?

Legrand® Pass & Seymour® 15-Amp White Commercial-Grade Duplex Outlet

These sturdy receptacles offer excellent value. They deliver rugged, lasting construction that hold up in a high-use commercial environment, while still maintaining the look of a traditional outlet. They are also ideal in residential applications where the outlets are regularly being used, such...

www.menards.com

or this

Legrand® Pass & Seymour White 20-Amp Heavy-Duty Side Wire Single Outlet

These sturdy receptacles offer excellent value. They deliver rugged, lasting construction that hold up in a high-use commercial environment. This outlet is ideal for use where a second outlet would not be needed, such as behind an appliance like a refrigerator. All 20 amp straight blade outlets...

www.menards.com

Links and photos would really be appreciated!

Above is what I would recommend and use for myself. If being code compliant is at the top of the list you will need this

Pardon Our Interruption

and this

Pardon Our Interruption

EDIT: W(hy)TF do the links say pardon our interruption?

 

[mike93lx]

RACO 4" Galvanized Steel Square Electrical Box

The RACO® four-inch two-gang Galvanized Steel Square New Work Box is 1-1/2 inches deep. It features 1/2- and 3/4-inch knockouts for a variety of wiring applications. It's recognized by contractors for its versatility in commercial and residential applications.

www.menards.com

and this

RACO 1-Gang Galvanized Steel 1/2" Raised 4" Square Electrical Box Cover

The RACO 4" Square Exposed Work Cover has one duplex receptacle opening. Includes two nuts to use with your device screws to mount device.

www.menards.com

or this

RACO 1-Gang Galvanized Steel 1/2" Raised 4" Square Electrical Box Cover

The RACO 4" Square Exposed Work Cover has a 1.406-inch diameter receptacle opening. Includes screws to mount device to cover.

www.menards.com

Legrand® Pass & Seymour® 15-Amp White Commercial-Grade Duplex Outlet

These sturdy receptacles offer excellent value. They deliver rugged, lasting construction that hold up in a high-use commercial environment, while still maintaining the look of a traditional outlet. They are also ideal in residential applications where the outlets are regularly being used, such...

www.menards.com

or this

Legrand® Pass & Seymour White 20-Amp Heavy-Duty Side Wire Single Outlet

These sturdy receptacles offer excellent value. They deliver rugged, lasting construction that hold up in a high-use commercial environment. This outlet is ideal for use where a second outlet would not be needed, such as behind an appliance like a refrigerator. All 20 amp straight blade outlets...

www.menards.com

Above is what I would recommend and use for myself. If being code compliant is at the top of the list you will need this

Pardon Our Interruption

and this

Pardon Our Interruption

Nah, a handy box and an aliexpress gfci is plenty.

/s

 

[sparky 1971]

I actually installed two GFCI receptacles in (2-1/8" deep) handy boxes today. It wasn't bad, but I had forgotten about the handy cover screws going through the mounting holes for the GFCI. Take the cover off and the GFCI will come out. P.O.S.

 

[Snapped-off]

I installed a single outlet under the counter fed from a gfci directly above it. It's not on a dedicated circuit, but the dishwasher gets run at the end of the night anyway. I didn't see a reason to hardwire it.