Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
I noticed a lot of people said to say this. Does that mean you're off the hook if you tell them oh it was already there when I bought the house. They can't go after you or the previous owner?
Unpermitted work - it was there when i bought the place.
- Thread starter Hobby_Man22
- Start date
the current home owner is probably the one on the hook to bring it up to standards etc, then you may be able to go after the previous owner(s)
mark-NJ
Well-known member
No inspector is going to just walk in & look around, so there's nothing to worry about in that regard. (Now, if the work in question is unsafe, that's a different situation altogether).
On the other hand, if you're doing renovation work, the previous work isn't grandfathered, so you'll be changing it out anyway.
So no matter how you look at it its sort of a moot point, no?
On the other hand, if you're doing renovation work, the previous work isn't grandfathered, so you'll be changing it out anyway.
So no matter how you look at it its sort of a moot point, no?
billconner
Well-known member
Have to determine whether the work is fine but unpermitted, or not up to code. Of course, if it's a hazard, probably want to address that right away. Beyond that mark-NJ is right.
Innovate1
Well-known member
I have heard of an inspector there for one thing (reinspection) wanting to look around the place to see what they could see. The owner managed to say the rest of it had already been inspected and showed them the door. But I wouldn't be suprised in some places if the inspector was there for something else they might try to look around at least the immediate area to see what else might be an issue. Where I am they don't seem to look for trouble so it really depends on the attitude of the inspectors. What sort of issues are you talking about? If it's not obvious it was new work and it looks reasonable very few places are going to go to the trouble of looking up past permits. Locally I have heard of people adding bathrooms or finishing a basement and getting caught when they sell because it's obvious it was done. But in other areas people have converted a detached garage to a house without a permit and apparently somehow got the records updated - no idea how they managed that.
acer66
Well-known member
When I did an addition to my place a deck that was in place when I bought the house caught the inspectors eye and he flagged it.
Reason being that the way it was build and the material that was used it was never up to code.
So I did a bit of research and at least around here it will be only grandfathered in if was up to code when it was build.
Reason being that the way it was build and the material that was used it was never up to code.
So I did a bit of research and at least around here it will be only grandfathered in if was up to code when it was build.
acer66
Well-known member
One of the inspectors I had at my place saw a new barn erected on my neighbors property and instantly knew that no permit was pulled and went right over there after he was done at my place.
jar944
Well-known member
Assuming it doesn't look like pure hackery, or blatantly is against code (current or former) then no inspector is going to notice.
It's not like they pull a list of every permit and have pictures of the entire place at the time of construction to compare to.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
I wonder why they wouldn't.
Jim greengo
Well-known member
Depends on what kind of inspector you're dealing with,and what the violation is.
jar944
Well-known member
They have other things to do, and pictures don't exist.
You are over thinking this.
driftpin
Well-known member
I can't agree with the first sentence. As to the second, that is exactly what an inspector might do, if they have doubts about permitted/unpermitted work.
The first sentence, that first phrase is certainly correct. The second, 'pictures don't exist' in south Florida, in many circumstances, is not, if it's visible to the exterior. See below.
As a FL-licensed plans examiner and fire inspector, and a planner, now retired, I can provide info from my experience.
Exterior photos of the houses and other buildings are on the county property appraiser's website, for anyone to see. There are aerial photos and street-level photos providing pictometry, done for the government beside the Google-manufactured street views. I am not advocating this: you want to spy on your neighbor you can't stand, examine the historical record of aerialstreet photos of a parcel, and then compare that to the viewed-by-anyone list of approved permits, also on-file. It's possible that the electronic records don't go-back much more than the 1990's or 1980's, things longer-ago than that may need to be researched on microfiche.
If I was in-doubt about something on a property during an inspection, going back to the office and doing a permit search is what I'd do. It's not that I'm looking for violations, but for instance if there's an addition and the permit history and the on-file floorplan schematics don't show it, you need to act on what was found (unpermitted work) or what wasn't found (permits and inspections, and a finaled-out permit/certificate of occupancy). Referral to another city or county department is the usual route.
In Florida in the jurisdictions where I worked and according to the ordinances and codes, the responsible party is the registered property owner. If you buy a parcel with multiple permitting and enforcement violations, you inherit them. It is not uncommon for a new property owner being afforded time to close-out issues such-as still-open permits and unpermitted work but to think that "I'm grandfathered-in!" is naive at best, and probably costly to resolve at worst. I can't tell you how-many times the most-expedient manner of resolving an issue was to remove the unpermitted work. Decide to 'fight city hall,' and the daily fines can become financially-onerous, very-quickly, once a notice of violation or a citation is issued. In extreme cases, I saw fine accruals in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Because Florida is a domicile homestead state, you are allowed to remain in your homesteaded dwelling and cannot be forced-out except when the structure is condemned for life safety reasons. Commercial and industrial parcels have no-such protection. I am not an attorney, so there may be other circumstances involved, but this is from my professional experience.
I always recommend a prospective property owner to get release of lien letters from all governmental jurisdictions and utilities prior to purchasing a property.
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Innovate1
Well-known member
Varies all over the place. Had a house we got a permit for moving to a lot to replace an old house that we knocked down. it was in sad shape and bought a house that was moved from a street they were doing a substantial widening of. Got the permits, had foundation, electrical, plumbing inspections and I don't remember what all. Owned it with another family member. I went off to work halfway across the country and the house never had it's final inspection. We sold it years later with no issue. As I said, this varies hugely. Best to get some local information if you are concerned about something.
jack stand
Well-known member
I feel sorry for you guys that live in places where this over reach occupies your thoughts and has you living in a state of almost paranoia.
acer66
Well-known member
I do not see it as overreach on default and I just deal with it in a solution oriented manner, thats all.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
The only thing I did was add an hvac and an extra sub panel about a year ago both are up to code but no permit and I can see why they didn't bother getting permits. I didn't care at the time but now that I'm adding a second building on the property I'm wondering if they will notice these things especially since the hvac is right next to the breaker box. Kind of hard to not see the ac condenser next to the breaker box.
Feralghoul88
Well-known member
See it however you want, but any kind of restrictions to what I do on my property short of something that will likely cause me to damage my neighbors property is none of the local governments business. They are just like HR and job safety people, a bunch of people overpaid and desperate to justify there existence and exercise the tiny bit of power they feel like they have.
billconner
Well-known member
For it not to affect your neighbor you'd have to sign away your using the taxpayer funded fire department and agree to demo it before selling the land.
So if you sell your house and someone dies from a electrical problem that you wired and never got inspected, you are fine with that? It's your property, you do what you want to?
What about the other side, what if one of your family members buys my house and dies because I thought I knew how to wire in a outlet or something? Oh well it was my property when I wired it, not my problem.
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billconner
Well-known member
I swear I read in FHB or JLC of a jurisdiction that allowed it owner builders to build whatever they wanted but required to demo it before selling the property.
I have read you can ignore codes in my Alaska outside municipal jurisdictions but if not built to code and inspected, banks won't issue loans to you or prospective buyers.
I have read you can ignore codes in my Alaska outside municipal jurisdictions but if not built to code and inspected, banks won't issue loans to you or prospective buyers.
rlitman
Well-known member
The purpose of a permit/inspection process is to ensure that the owner isn't screwed by a shady contractor performing shady and/or dangerous work. Going beyond that IS overreach.
However, I'll make an exception for certain obvious deficiencies. That deck mentioned above is one good example. Falling decks have killed way too many people, so I can easily understand an inspector taking note of that.
driftpin
Well-known member
No, I'll disagree with you. As a career firefighter/paramedic fire service instructor and fire inspector, now retired, I've seen many examples of work that was done where the result was life safety issues. It happens in residential, commercial and industrial occupancies. We have to use the permit process because too-many people would ignore proven, safe building practices without them, to save $. Every time I attend in-service seminars there is a focus on what's happened in places like The Station nightclub fire (100 deceased, insufficient means of egress and lack of flame-retardant finishes) in Rhode Island, and the Charleston N.C. Sofa Super Store fire which has brought to light how quickly light bar joist construction can fail catastrophically, which in this case cost nine firefighters their lives when the roof collapsed. They were inside searching for people supposedly trapped inside, which turned out to be bogus.
rlitman
Well-known member
Except that government oversight does not end with a permit, and commercial and industrial locations are subject to more than just a C of O, and annual (or perhaps even more frequently) safety inspections by fire marshals are a thing. Because that works.
But more importantly, you're advocating an ad-hoc inspection regime that's rife for corruption and selective enforcement, because it turns a blind eye to just about every example of unpermitted work, EXCEPT for those rare cases where the owner seeks a permit for something unrelated. And that's why we end up with scumbag owners hiding their work. Because they understand that once you bring an inspector in, you may be opening up a can of worms.
For permits and inspections to be helpful across the board, they must perform a beneficial service to owners, not be a tax.
jar944
Well-known member
Some places are less on top of things than others. This was a active house listing in Pittsburgh from a flipper. Inside was just as bad. It just gets worse as you look.
Rittman brings up a good point, the inspector only sees inside the house (or around the house depending) if they are asked to inspect. You can violate every code imaginable inside and no one will know.
Rittman brings up a good point, the inspector only sees inside the house (or around the house depending) if they are asked to inspect. You can violate every code imaginable inside and no one will know.
LeonardY
Well-known member
If you bought the house and the previous owner disclosed something done without a permit or was discovered by your home inspection. You are on the hook. If you discovered after you purchased the home that work was done without a permit, you can go after the previous owner and the realtor. You will have to prove the realtor was aware of the un-permitted work.
I know someone that bought a house and was told an addition was not permitted. He bought it anyway. He got the sale price reduced because of it. When he moved, he had to disclose that the addition was not permitted and it was now his problem. I can't remember the resolution.
Here is why I am glad for inspectors. A neighbor was cutting back a slope in his backyard. He a commercial real estate guy. He was cutting back an engineered slope. Homes are above it. The day the concrete trucks showed up to pour the retaining wall. An inspector showed up to inspect a patio cover next door. He looked over the fence and went to the first truck. Found out there was no permit and sent 4 full concrete trucks back. The neighbor did not have any engineering done for the retaining wall. Putting the properties above in jeopardy.
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Locally our building dept is so slammed and short staffed that they are not cruising old permits or structures for compliance. Now, my friend had a visit from Code Enforcement this week because someone dropped a dime on him, and he is just screwed and I hate to say it but fairly so. He pulled a permit for a barn which was never finaled and built a three story house. How long ago? Well when the inspector pulled up he was putting up the scaffold to re-roof the place, so 25 yrs? He is now having to prove time period of construction to determine what code level, ‘97, ‘03, ‘08, ‘14 he must comply with. Fortunately, he has As-builds and Engineering on the place and it is beautifully built Post and Beam. At minimum he will have to re-do the leach field. At maximum they can condemn the property. I think it will cost him at least a couple hundred k. Just look at back property, school taxes and penalties. He is “Ever the Rebel,” and he is now getting bitten in the posterior over it. He now must work with the County to show progress on the property. With care he can buy himself years with moderate effort. They do not want to throw him out but he has to make progress. Not a pretty picture at his 75 yrs.
I agree with what you were saying also.
My own opinion there’s too many anti-rule people out there.
I was in the fire department also, only a volunteer, I remember one house fire the people I just bought the house had an inspection done two days after they moved everything they owned into the house the house burnt down, some of the fuses were the type that look like a roll of dimes, The previous owner must’ve been having problems because instead of fuses there were just two pieces of pipe in there, obviously the pipe didn’t trip like a fuse would
IME, a big part of building/permit enforcement is linking the offender to the infraction at a specific time. I.e. caught in the act, or soon afterwards.
Pointing fingers 2, 5, 10 years after the fact rarely goes anywhere. Codes and bylaws keep changing. People go out of business, move away, pass away, etc. Also, many real-estate dealings have a 2 year limit on disclosure of modifications... no permits or receipts, no evidence. A home is largely an as-is, buyer-beware purchase despite the extra bandaid measures.
Pointing fingers 2, 5, 10 years after the fact rarely goes anywhere. Codes and bylaws keep changing. People go out of business, move away, pass away, etc. Also, many real-estate dealings have a 2 year limit on disclosure of modifications... no permits or receipts, no evidence. A home is largely an as-is, buyer-beware purchase despite the extra bandaid measures.
Innovate1
Well-known member
My guess is that they aren't going to care about that as long as it looks like it was done properly. But it's just a guess. No way to tell what your local conditions are. Is this really going to change your plans? Do what you (or the owners) want to do and then you will know if they notice. When I recently built a detached garage here and ran power and gas from the house they didn't even look at the house end of things. But they seem pretty lax here. Then again, I think it was obvious I was doing things better than code.
OP
Hobby_Man22
Well-known member
I was going to pull an electrical permit after the second building was built but it sounds like they want me to pull the electrical permit the same time that I pull the building permit. Seems kind of dumb. It doesn't matter I guess.
Innovate1
Well-known member
Getting all the permits at once is standard everywhere I have been. It is sometimes cheaper for permits that way and I would think the actual cost of work too. There are time limits on permits - often a year but have seen 6 months so be aware of that. If you really plan to do the electric down the road and put absolutely no electric in now perhaps you could do two permits.
You can insist on anything you want. I know getting our (large) municipal government to do that won't happen around here. And your lawyer will argue it is not worth paying him his $400 an hour to try to get it.
beemerphile
Well-known member
...until you sell your homespun DIY disaster to someone else or a visitor or emergency responder is injured because of your non-compliance. Codes and inspections might not be necessary if everyone was competent and conscientious, but this is a pipe dream. Inspections also protect the non-savvy owner from bad or dangerous work done by an unscrupulous contractor. Unlike ill-considered code changes (such as AFCI that was pushed into the NEC before the hardware was even functional by the manufacturers who stood to gain from it), the only code inspectors that rankle me are the ones that either don't know what they are talking about or have Barney Fife Syndrome.
driftpin
Well-known member
Yes it certainly is 'ad-hoc,' because the definition of that is 'as-necessary.' Code, ordinances and statutes each control requirements for things to be done, i.e., 'if A then B (and in many circumstances C, D, and so-forth.' Home rule says local governments call the shots on many things. However, state statutes for instance determine what chapters of professional associations are used and then what years' adoptions are codified. Periodic review of standards leads to continual updating due to the work of industry professionals as more data becomes available. Things can change over time, and they do. Sometimes it takes years for defects to come to light, but once they do, the standards review committees expend due diligence, and the state legislatures almost-always follow their recommendations.
A black eye in Florida was a standard adopted for periodic review of high rises put in-place but then later removed after a couple of years due to pressure from certain groups who maintained the expense to comply was financially burdensome. Years later, Champlain Towers South in Surfside happened. The death toll for that is currently 98.
The adoption of sprinklered building systems in existing high-rise occupancies which currently do not have them is another example of powerful lobbying groups blocking what would certainly be a huge improvement in life safety here in Florida. It continues to be prevented from implementation, after decades.
It was not my primary objective to gig a registered property owner for anything I saw while on inspection for permitted work undergoing the required site inspections for compliance with approved, permitted plans. Like anything, if an unscrupulous individual chooses to act criminally, that is their personal choice. If an administration allows such behavior, action taken to identify such behavior, and to refer it to the appropriate authority is the path to be taken. I know of at least one local charter revoked from a south Florida government, resulting in its dissolution by state government because of its actions.
driftpin
Well-known member
If you would post your community in-which you reside, I would be happy to search for the release of lien procedure, including the explanation why it's done, and what is the cost.
How do you "know getting our (large) municipal government to do that won't happen around here?" If you were to have an enforcement action taken against your property, with you as RPO, where you were assessed a fine, via a lien, upon payment you would receive a release of lien letter. Of course, the property needs to be brought into compliance and to be inspected and passed to stop the fine from accumulating further.
I worked daily with the person who did the release of lien letters for our county agency covering nearly 2 million residents. That release of lien means any financial obligation has been satisfied under that agency. Recovery by the agency for any outstanding financial obligation covered by the terms of that letter was then a moot point, it rarely happened, but it did. I once advised an attorney making a property purchase to follow the release of lien procedure, they chose to ignore the advice. After closing, they had to remit several thousand dollars for an unsatisfied debt on the property. If they had received a release of lien against that entity, they would have been off the hook for that amount. A real estate attorney is supposed to handle those issues for a closing, but sometimes it is not performed. Caveat emptor.
I get a kick out of guys like the one you quoted, "my property, I'll do what I want to"
What happens when I do what I want to on my property and his family member is injured or killed because my half *** electrical work?
beemerphile
Well-known member
Dey jes' be dead.
tdkkart
Well-known member
Boy, would ya look at the workmanship on that gem.Some places are less on top of things than others. This was a active house listing in Pittsburgh from a flipper. Inside was just as bad. It just gets worse as you look.
Rittman brings up a good point, the inspector only sees inside the house (or around the house depending) if they are asked to inspect. You can violate every code imaginable inside and no one will know.
If the goof had spent just 5minutes at the "How to build a deck" book at Home Depot, and used any sense at all...........
This is why inspections have to exist.
I have no clue what you are saying.
Thats what i did. Didnt have money for the GC to do anything but the structure. Building and electrical are 2 different authorities here.