R410a Phase Out

[engineer2]

I remember back in the 70's building refrigerated air dryers in a factory. By the end of the day your brazing torch was burning green from all the refrigerant floating around. We used R12 or R22 for leak checks and then just vented it to the atmosphere.

 

[Firebrick43]

You've never seen a coil leak before?
I'm guessing you haven't spent much time in the HVAC business.
Theres a reason they sell replacement evap coils for cars also.
You were the 1 who brought up fuel injection,last time I checked I've never seen fuel lines running through the inside of any passenger vehicle I've owned.
Do you suppose there's a reason why the big chunk of steel between the engine bay and passenger area is called a fire wall?

Of course I have seen coils leak. a pin hole leak in a cars coil is going to stink you out with mercaptan, is it not? I pin hole leak will not explode because there is not the correct air/fuel mixture. It could catch fire if you stick a lighter down there to see what smelly gas is leaking I do imagine, but it would be a small little flame coming from the pin hole.

The firewall wall with lots of holes, some times quite large, with just thin plastic housings seperating you and the engine compartment. I mean, no one ever dies in an fire from a car accident? Either in a diesel truck, or a gas car, or an electric car right????

 

[bonneyman]

I remember back in the 70's building refrigerated air dryers in a factory. By the end of the day your brazing torch was burning green from all the refrigerant floating around. We used R12 or R22 for leak checks and then just vented it to the atmosphere.

Ohh, that was some phosgene and other bad stuff right there.
Sometimes when I was brazing there would be some residual freon leaking out and turning all green and purple. I re-oriented myself so the prevailing winds blew those things away from me. And some guys had cheapie box fans that they would use for that if there wasn't any wind blowing. Can't be too safe around that stuff.

 

[Firebrick43]

There are rules in the use of refrigerants that have been around for decades. Ammonia was a great refrigerant - it had almost 10 times the thermal efficiency of the CFC's that replaced it. But it had toxicity and flammability concerns. R-12 and R-22 are thermally stable up to relatively high temperatures. Made them much safer around people. Now we're being forced to accept a gas that's a step backwards in safety, because the greenies want to save the earth? That's what I'm bucking.

How many people were dying from ammonia refrigerants and its very specific air fuel ratio that it has to have to ignite? 15-28 percent in large places with small amounts of efficient ammonia?

Its that freon companies whispering in the EPA ear that the old refrigerant is bad, because it just went off patent. Its the freon companies that put out warning sheets on how dangerous(some were quite humorous) some refrigerants are because of flammability, to scare people, which contact their congressman and demand people out law such and such, then turn around and make a flammable refrigerant
themselves.

Lets see, that would be freonpyrophobia?

 

[engineer2]

It was usually just before quitting time and we never smelled any, but you never know...

 

[bonneyman]

How many people were dying from ammonia refrigerants and its very specific air fuel ratio that it has to have to ignite? 15-28 percent in large places with small amounts of efficient ammonia?

Its that freon companies whispering in the EPA ear that the old refrigerant is bad, because it just went off patent. Its the freon companies that put out warning sheets on how dangerous(some were quite humorous) some refrigerants are because of flammability, to scare people, which contact their congressman and demand people out law such and such, then turn around and make a flammable refrigerant
themselves.

Lets see, that would be freonpyrophobia?

I think you've been listening to too many Def Leppard albums.

 

[86turbodsl]

The whole refrigerant game is just that, a game and a racket. Do the research, see the connections.

 

[bonneyman]

The whole refrigerant game is just that, a game and a racket. Do the research, see the conn

I agree.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

OK, just did some research. Seems like Y1234R is the chosen solution for cars because - while R-134a dealt with the ozone depletion angle - it still has a high global warming potential. (The stated issue with R-410a) So, they came up with 1234 to address that. Only problem is it is flammable, though stated to be only slightly flammable. (This is the problem with R-32, the gas to replace R-410a). How can they put a pressurized flammable gas under the hood of todays hot cars? And what about crashes? They did summersaults trying to aleviate fears of it's flammability. That's my issue with R-32. I've seen house fire videos where the condensing unit gets enveloped in flames, and eventually pops. You've got close-in explosive damage and probably toxic by-products. But you don't have additional flammability concerns. I'm thinking though they modify the flammability codes and find a way to slip it on in.

Oh, and 1234 is 10X the cost of 134a. I expect R32 to be likewise golden compared to 410a.

As someone who proctored EPA exams, I can tell you it's mostly propaganda and profiteering. They didn't really know much of anything about the "hole" in the ozoner layer (and still don't know as much as they would like us to believe). I won't touch on the Global Warming thing as it's Political. The original concepts that drove the Montreal Protocal have all but been dismissed.

Flammable refrigerants have been an issue for decades. NONE of the "drop in" R12 replcements commonly sold for MVAC are UL listed, most are propane, hexane or some other flammable gas.

Any home HVAC unit will "pop" in a fire, regardless of refrigerant type. The oil that gets atomized usually will catch fire anyway. BTDT...

Tommy