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Pipe vs. Tube bending, part II

jives

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In an earlier post asked about pipe benders, but was corrected on tube vs. pipe. Okay, but I still don't know what tool to use. I have a bunch of galvanized fence top rail, 1 5/8" OD, 16 gauge. Yes, these are the specs. I want to put about a 90 deg bend, 8" radius. What type (and cheapest) tool do I use, without resorting to a $1000+ machine? Pics would be helpful, because I noticed that part of my confusion is the use of different terminology. Press bending, rotary draw bending, mandrel bending, roll bending, compression bending, wiper die bending. Of course, then you have hydraulics, manual.. . ugggh. Then you have types of dies.
 
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rpcraft

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The difference between a pipe and tube bender is pretty simple, there is none. If a machine can bend a tube, it can bend a pipe.
The only exceptions to this would be for either very large or very small tubes and piping. The primary difference is are you bending tube or pipe.

If you are bending product that is thin wall for a tight bend like you are describing you will need a mandrel or some kind of inside material to support it and prevent a kink in your pipe. I have seen guys use a hot sand method (with PVC for example). I think you can use playground sound or whatever is cheapest, pack your pipe, cap it, and then bend away. Experiment on some extra or scrap material. I do not believe you need to heat the sand with metal pipe/tubing.

I have not personally crossed the line of actually doing it but just had the how to process floating in my brain for when I finally get down to busting out the tools and getting it done. I wish I could give you better advice and a recipe for success but that is kind of where my knowledge escapes me at this time.
 

p00p

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i've not seen residential use pipe formed to make a straight pipe into a bend. I've only created a radius for an area that used pipe by using fittings/couplers/etc.

For fencing, it's doable using a cheap manual car exhaust bender, but it'll leave a pressed in section at the radius.

Have you consulted with a local fence material supplier? They might have a quick solution for you.
 

jwilson645

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If you're just bending aluminum fence posts (pipe) then you should be able to do it with the Harbor Freight bender. I'm not sure how much of a bend you need so that could be your limiting factor with that bender.
 

GeoBruin

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I'll make it easy for you. Buy this Harbor Freight Pipe Bender.


Then, read/watch everything you can find on the internet regarding tips and tricks for getting better bends with it. I'm betting you can get the bends you're looking for with nothing more than some good technique and some patience, but if you decide you want to spend more money, there are lots and lots of "upgrades" you can do to this bender. SWAG offroad has a bunch of them but there are tons of other diy options as well.

Other than this option, you're going to spend $1,000 at a minimum on a tubing bender. But if you're not planning on doing a lot of bending in the future, the HF rig will get the job done.
 

rpcraft

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Just an odd, if you only need to do it once or a few times maybe you can take your piece to a good exhaust shop and they could bend it? It may have a depression in it on the inside of the bend but i doubt fence pipe is that much difference in diameter and save yourself buying any tool at all.
 

slowtwitch73

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Change your material or change your expectations.

Packing with sand, etc etc is a huge waste of time.

I would look at where you can just buy/get the bends.. think cutting apart a trampoline etc etc.

Or just take it to a muffler shop.
 
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jives

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I have looked at more vids on the HF hydraulic pipe bender and others than I can recall. My situation, more specifically, is that I have probably 100' or so of the heavy duty chain link fence top rail. (I also have an old trampoline that got caught up in a windstorm and folded in half. The curved pieces won't work for my first project, already thought of that!). I plan to use the pipe/tube of the chain link fence rail for some projects, not as part of a fence. I want to learn the techniques. And yes, one project involves a touch of welding, and I studied the techniques for welding galvanized.

I have thought of the muffler shop or local fab shop, but as I said, I've got a few projects in mind and want to learn.
 

GeoBruin

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I have looked at more vids on the HF hydraulic pipe bender and others than I can recall. My situation, more specifically, is that I have probably 100' or so of the heavy duty chain link fence top rail. (I also have an old trampoline that got caught up in a windstorm and folded in half. The curved pieces won't work for my first project, already thought of that!). I plan to use the pipe/tube of the chain link fence rail for some projects, not as part of a fence. I want to learn the techniques. And yes, one project involves a touch of welding, and I studied the techniques for welding galvanized.

I have thought of the muffler shop or local fab shop, but as I said, I've got a few projects in mind and want to learn.
Wait, so in all of your studying of the HF bender, you have determined it won't work for you? What aspect falls short?

Also, you've never specified how good the bend needs to be. Is a little kinking okay or no?
 
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TurnipTruck

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I once used a bender similar to the HF above on some exhaust tubing (2-1/4”? 2-1/2”?) and it just kinks.
Your thin-wall tubing is essentially EMT conduit, so any grooved bender that the tube fits tightly in should work. Any bender with point loads (like above) will just kink.
If conduit hickey benders went up to 1-5/8, that would be your cheapest new option, but they don’t AFAIK.
 

dr_clyde

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All pipe is tube but not all tube is pipe. It all boils down to how is the material measured and categorized. Tubing is typically measured by the OD and the wall thickness, and usually will be within a few thou if what it is called. So a 1" tube with a 16ga wall will be dang close to 1" OD with a 16ga wall.

Pipe on the other hand is a system where multiple components are designed to interface with each other. It helps to think of the pipe sizes as gages instead of any sort of dimension, as 1" pipe doesn't measure 1" anywhere on it. The ID will be close, but it is still oversize. So think of it is #1 gage pipe instead of 1". Pipe is standardized under the NPS system, called the Nominal Pipe Size. Which is basically a fancy way of saying "eh, it's close to 1" so we'll call it 1". Back in the early days of iron pipe the ID was very very close to being on inch sizes, and over time has drifted to what we have now. Kinda like how a 2x4 isn't 2 anythings by 4 anythings nowadays, even though it used to be.

Pipe wall thickness is measured by a ratio of diameter to wall thickness called a schedule. The bigger the schedule, the thicker the wall for a given pipe size. Schedule 40 is standard wall, sch. 80 is heavy, sch. 10 is light. They go way up and way down in schedule, but at no point does the OD change. This is so threading tools, fittings and so on can be used on multiple different schedules. Pipe is often used to carry a product of some sort, but it is not what it is exclusively used for. Tubing is also used to convey liquids and gases, and pipe can be used in structural or other applications.

Bending tubing/pipe is a complex and tool intensive process to do well. It doesn't really matter what you're trying to bed, what matters is that you have the correct tooling to make the bends. Different benders and tools are optimized for different material sizes, thicknesses and bend radiuses. Good tube working equipment is expensive because it is hard to make good bends without good, dedicated tooling.

When you're making a bend, you're simultaneously stretching the outside of the radius and compressing the inside. All the while, the sidewalls are attempting to collapse. If the wall is too thin, you'll collapse the tube. If the dies don't support the side walls you'll collapse the tube. If you try to bend a tighter radius than the tooling is designed for you'll collapse the tube. It all has to be used in harmony together to get the desired result.

All this to say there really isn't a way to get nice consistent bends on a large variety of tube geometry with one tool. Each radius uses either a unique die or special adjustable dies on expensive equipment. The cheap hydraulic benders do an OK job of putting an offset kink in sch. 40 pipe, but they're pretty **** at doing much else.

What you have is either 1-5/8" x 16ga tube or 1-1/4 x sch 5 pipe. Neither of which is going to bend nicely without the right tool. I was trying to bend 1-1/2" x 16ga ss tube the other day in my JDSquared bender with the correct dies and it still wanted to kink after about 45 degrees on a 5.5" CLR, and this was because 16ga wall was too light to be bent at that radius with that tool. I can't see you getting good bends out of the pipe you have without spending some coin on nice tools or really going through a lot of effort.


This is all for BENDING mind you, ROLLING is a whole nother can of worms. That's effectively bending an infinite number of tiny bends on a variable radius die to make a gradual hoop or arc. You can sometimes get a shape easier on thin wall by rolling gradually and sneaking up on it vs a hard bend. Depends on your part and desired geometry.
 

The Tool Tyrant

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You have a couple of factors to take into consideration.
1) How nice do the bends need to be?
2) How many bends are you planning to make?

As GeoBruin stated, the HF compression bender will PROBABLY do the job, although you would need to use the 1-1/4 pipe die as 1-1/4 pipe OD measures 1.660 which is a bit larger than the 1.625 tube. Also, the C/L radius may not be close to what you want and may be too tight to make a nice wrinkle free bend on 16 Ga. (.065 wall) material.
You can see 2 of our Ercolina rotary draw benders in my avatar that we use all day bending aluminum tubing and they do an excellent job...but we still have to factor in tube diameter, wall thickness and bend center line radius to determine if we can achieve a quality bend with the given parameters.

All you can do is give it a try and if your not too picky, it may work for you. Of course a bender with larger CL radius and TUBEING dies will do a much better job, but also more $$$
 

cannuck

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In an earlier post asked about pipe benders, but was corrected on tube vs. pipe. Okay, but I still don't know what tool to use. I have a bunch of galvanized fence top rail, 1 5/8" OD, 16 gauge. Yes, these are the specs. I want to put about a 90 deg bend, 8" radius. .
Then you have types of dies.

It's the radius that will get you. You need to find a die with that radius or settle on a different radius.

Believe it or not, there ARE actually Hickey type benders for 1 1/4 EMT that MIGHT work. EMT is about 1.510 OD, and their radius is around 9" Not sure how tightly the die matches the tubing diameter. Electricians bend this stuff (essentially 16ga) all day long with few or no kinks or internal support. IF you can find someone with such a large radius dies (8") you would really want to do this with a draw type of bender. Squashy types (muffler shop or HF el cheapo) will need internal support and even then might kink (this is very thin wall, but similar to auto exhaust ERW). There are some really nice EMT draw type benders that you should be able to rent or get time on, but not sure what the radius will be (close to what you want from what I remember) but again smaller tube diameter dies.

BTW: anything that will do the job well is likely to be in the thousandS of dollars unless you can make dies yourself (got a big lathe with 16" swing????)
 
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jives

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Wait, so in all of your studying of the HF bender, you have determined it won't work for you? What aspect falls short?

Also, you've never specified how good the bend needs to be. Is a little kinking okay or no?
Yes, with all my study, the main question is if the 16 ga wall thickness it too thin. It is interesting to note the number of mods to the HF hydraulic compression bender to bend what looks to be thinner wall. The sand trick, making inserts for the dies for a better fit, heating the tube, the bend-move-bend-move trick, and so forth.

I guess I may need to bite the bullet and see how well the HF bender works. Look for used on FBM and give it a shot. . . .
 

slowtwitch73

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That top rail is not great stuff... free yes... good for bending not so much.. toxic fumes if you weld it most likely.

It'd be great for making cattle guards etc.
 
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Daveyclimber

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Essentially what you are working with is exhaust tubing. You would be best served with a tube bender with the appropriate die. The manufacturers have different radius dies available for each tube size. These benders are expensive. You may get by with a cheap harbor freight type bender but expect deformation in the tube as pipe OD on 1-1/2 pipe is slightly different. You would likely have to fool around and experiment a fair bit to have an acceptable outcome.
 

Joemctag

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All pipe is tube but not all tube is pipe. It all boils down to how is the material measured and categorized. Tubing is typically measured by the OD and the wall thickness, and usually will be within a few thou if what it is called. So a 1" tube with a 16ga wall will be dang close to 1" OD with a 16ga wall.

Pipe on the other hand is a system where multiple components are designed to interface with each other. It helps to think of the pipe sizes as gages instead of any sort of dimension, as 1" pipe doesn't measure 1" anywhere on it. The ID will be close, but it is still oversize. So think of it is #1 gage pipe instead of 1". Pipe is standardized under the NPS system, called the Nominal Pipe Size. Which is basically a fancy way of saying "eh, it's close to 1" so we'll call it 1". Back in the early days of iron pipe the ID was very very close to being on inch sizes, and over time has drifted to what we have now. Kinda like how a 2x4 isn't 2 anythings by 4 anythings nowadays, even though it used to be.

Pipe wall thickness is measured by a ratio of diameter to wall thickness called a schedule. The bigger the schedule, the thicker the wall for a given pipe size. Schedule 40 is standard wall, sch. 80 is heavy, sch. 10 is light. They go way up and way down in schedule, but at no point does the OD change. This is so threading tools, fittings and so on can be used on multiple different schedules. Pipe is often used to carry a product of some sort, but it is not what it is exclusively used for. Tubing is also used to convey liquids and gases, and pipe can be used in structural or other applications.

Bending tubing/pipe is a complex and tool intensive process to do well. It doesn't really matter what you're trying to bed, what matters is that you have the correct tooling to make the bends. Different benders and tools are optimized for different material sizes, thicknesses and bend radiuses. Good tube working equipment is expensive because it is hard to make good bends without good, dedicated tooling.

When you're making a bend, you're simultaneously stretching the outside of the radius and compressing the inside. All the while, the sidewalls are attempting to collapse. If the wall is too thin, you'll collapse the tube. If the dies don't support the side walls you'll collapse the tube. If you try to bend a tighter radius than the tooling is designed for you'll collapse the tube. It all has to be used in harmony together to get the desired result.

All this to say there really isn't a way to get nice consistent bends on a large variety of tube geometry with one tool. Each radius uses either a unique die or special adjustable dies on expensive equipment. The cheap hydraulic benders do an OK job of putting an offset kink in sch. 40 pipe, but they're pretty **** at doing much else.

What you have is either 1-5/8" x 16ga tube or 1-1/4 x sch 5 pipe. Neither of which is going to bend nicely without the right tool. I was trying to bend 1-1/2" x 16ga ss tube the other day in my JDSquared bender with the correct dies and it still wanted to kink after about 45 degrees on a 5.5" CLR, and this was because 16ga wall was too light to be bent at that radius with that tool. I can't see you getting good bends out of the pipe you have without spending some coin on nice tools or really going through a lot of effort.


This is all for BENDING mind you, ROLLING is a whole nother can of worms. That's effectively bending an infinite number of tiny bends on a variable radius die to make a gradual hoop or arc. You can sometimes get a shape easier on thin wall by rolling gradually and sneaking up on it vs a hard bend. Depends on your part and desired geometry.
Yes to all this and since you want 90 degrees, with a roller you can take a piece of your tube to a shop that is . say, twice the finished length you need. They’ll roll it to your radius and you should have the bend be “perfect” for more than your 90 degree section. You can cut off the ends, including the “imperfect” end you’re always gonna have,and you’ll have your desired piece. It should be uniform throughout but NOTE that the cross-section will not be perfectly round. How close will depend on you material and your radius.
 

Joemctag

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8” radius, 1-5/8 tube sound like maybe not possible with shop equipment. Not an expert.
You can buy a lot of 90 degree pipe and tube elbows in various rather small radii. That’s what a lot of fab shops would do.
 

Walkers

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Save your money. That fence rail is not bendable in any fashion that is affordable. You can have a muffler shop squish a corner in it, but they look terrible. You would need a mandrel bender to make a smooth bend. That HF pipe Kinker is a worthless piece of **** as well. You would be much better off cutting miters and welding the piece you want.
 

AA/FC

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I'm not going to quote anyone specifically in this thread but anyone who says you can bend pipe and tubing with the exact same setup is either lying, or speaking with zero experience.... or both. Because anyone who has ACTUALLY tried to bend "tubing" in a "pipe" bender knows exactly how well that works. lol. Sure, a pipe bender can bend tubing but it won't really be nicely "bent" it will be "kinked". The easiest way to turn a bunch of nice "tubing" into a pile of scrap metal is to try bending it in a "pipe" bender. This topic has been debated on the internet since the begining of forums. People have tried ALL kinds of tricks and methods to bend tubing in a pipe bender with almost zero success. Bottom line..... if you want to bend tubing and you care about the looks of the finished product, then DO NOT put your tubing into a pipe bender because you will not be happy with the results.
 

Monza Harry

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I'll make it easy for you. Buy this Harbor Freight Pipe Bender.


Then, read/watch everything you can find on the internet regarding tips and tricks for getting better bends with it. I'm betting you can get the bends you're looking for with nothing more than some good technique and some patience, but if you decide you want to spend more money, there are lots and lots of "upgrades" you can do to this bender. SWAG offroad has a bunch of them but there are tons of other diy options as well.

Other than this option, you're going to spend $1,000 at a minimum on a tubing bender. But if you're not planning on doing a lot of bending in the future, the HF rig will get the job done.
I'm sorry if this offends anybody but those benders are for Conduit, period that is a malleable material which bends nicer than fence post/top rail. My father had one [he has now past on] but the bender/tubing kinker remains I can't find it a home for 10 cent on the 2005 dollar, their reputation precedes them! I have personally tried it with fence rail and it will kink it at about 15* I'm about to sell the jack or repurpose it onto my tubing roller along with the round dies and throw the rest out! Swag Off Road has add-on's for the tubing rollers but I haven't seen anything for these canoe anchors [not even good enough for a row boat]. Harry
 

GeoBruin

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I'm sorry if this offends anybody but those benders are for Conduit, period that is a malleable material which bends nicer than fence post/top rail. My father had one [he has now past on] but the bender/tubing kinker remains I can't find it a home for 10 cent on the 2005 dollar, their reputation precedes them! I have personally tried it with fence rail and it will kink it at about 15* I'm about to sell the jack or repurpose it onto my tubing roller along with the round dies and throw the rest out! Swag Off Road has add-on's for the tubing rollers but I haven't seen anything for these canoe anchors [not even good enough for a row boat]. Harry
You're right. I was mistaken about the Swag upgrades. They are for the tubing roller.
 

AA/FC

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I'm sorry if this offends anybody but those benders are for Conduit, period that is a malleable material which bends nicer than fence post/top rail. My father had one [he has now past on] but the bender/tubing kinker remains I can't find it a home for 10 cent on the 2005 dollar, their reputation precedes them! I have personally tried it with fence rail and it will kink it at about 15* I'm about to sell the jack or repurpose it onto my tubing roller along with the round dies and throw the rest out! Swag Off Road has add-on's for the tubing rollers but I haven't seen anything for these canoe anchors [not even good enough for a row boat]. Harry
If you're talking about "rigid conduit" which is actually "pipe" then yes, you are correct. But if you're talking about EMT conduit, which is actually tubing, then you are incorrect. There is a reason why it's specifically called a "pipe bender" because it's ONLY designed to bend "pipe". "Tubing" does not fit correctly in "pipe" bending dies. Tubing and pipe are measured differently and therefore do not share the same OD.
 

boom_bap

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If you're talking about "rigid conduit" which is actually "pipe" then yes, you are correct. But if you're talking about EMT conduit, which is actually tubing, then you are incorrect. There is a reason why it's specifically called a "pipe bender" because it's ONLY designed to bend "pipe". "Tubing" does not fit correctly in "pipe" bending dies. Tubing and pipe are measured differently and therefore do not share the same OD.
This is the correct answer. Dies will not be the right diameter. Pipe benders kink tube, you want to draw it around a die.
 
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jives

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Yeah, the JD Squared and Hossfeld style benders. . . not happening. Next summer perhaps I'll try and make something crude.
 

dr_clyde

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Bending tubing correctly and neatly really can't be done without the correct tools, and unfortunately for the hobby guy the right tools aren't cheap.

JDSquared is about the cheapest "good" bender you'll run across.

If you're not willing to stomach the price, your best bet is to hire out the work you need done.

For what its worth, most shops won't want you to bring your own material. Just bring a print, tell them you want a quote and let them supply materials.
 

theoldwizard1

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I'll make it easy for you. Buy this Harbor Freight Pipe Bender.


Then, read/watch everything you can find on the internet regarding tips and tricks for getting better bends with it. I'm betting you can get the bends you're looking for with nothing more than some good technique and some patience, but if you decide you want to spend more money, there are lots and lots of "upgrades" you can do to this bender.
The key to nice looking, no-kink, bends is the proper mandrel !
 

zmotorsports

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Dr. Clyde pretty much nailed it on all accounts.

In my opinion, pipe is for getting water to your home and tubing is what you build **** out of. ;)

If you want it to look halfway decent you'll need the proper tools and for the occasional use it can get quite expensive for the home hobbyist. Don't waste your money on that HF POS. My brother tried one and after giving him fits for days he brought the material he bought a second time over to my shop for bending.

If you can't stomach the cost for the equipment then pay someone to bend the material and you will be much happier in the end with the outcome.
 
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