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DeWalt Powerstack Batteries

Renegade1LI

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I’m in Home Depot and see the dewalt rep, i asked her when the 5ah powerstack batteries are being released, she said January 23. Having bought a bunch of the small ones which work really well with their atomic line, it would be nice to have a more powerful version. She said their real world testing has shown the new batteries cut charging time significantly, if true that’s great need less batteries, plus saves the time to swap out. Nice to get more run time per charge without extra weight, also says more power, i see some reviews but haven’t watched any yet, hopefully they’re that good. I’m not going to preorder but will try a couple when they’re available.
 
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MOS3522

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Wow I didn't know about these and I just bought some 6 and 5 AH batteries on the buy-get free. I should probably return those while I still can and hold out for these.
 
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Renegade1LI

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Wow I didn't know about these and I just bought some 6 and 5 AH batteries on the buy-get free. I should probably return those while I still can and hold out for these.

I would keep this since you got the free tool, preorder says they’re shipping mid December.

 

American Locomotive

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If those prices are accurate, this is an absolute disgusting joke of a product. We live in a world where lithium battery prices are down to $130/kWh, and these new batteries have a retail cost of $1750/kWh

BNEF-Figure-1-Volume-weighted-average-pack-and-cell-price-split_WP.png


For the same price as that 2-pack of 5AH powerstack batteries, you could have five 5AH "traditional" batteries, two chargers, two carrying bags and enough left over for a cup of coffee.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M19SKOP/?tag=atomicindus08-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KWRM5Z4/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Anyone who buys these powerstack batteries at those listed price is a fool. There is no way being 40% thinner is worth a 120% increase in price.
 

mike93lx

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If those prices are accurate, this is an absolute disgusting joke of a product. We live in a world where lithium battery prices are down to $130/kWh, and these new batteries have a retail cost of $1750/kWh

BNEF-Figure-1-Volume-weighted-average-pack-and-cell-price-split_WP.png


For the same price as that 2-pack of 5AH powerstack batteries, you could have five 5AH "traditional" batteries, two chargers, two carrying bags and enough left over for a cup of coffee.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M19SKOP/?tag=atomicindus08-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KWRM5Z4/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Anyone who buys these powerstack batteries at those listed price is a fool. There is no way being 40% thinner is worth a 120% increase in price.
There will be sales and package deals, for sure.

If someone deems the thickness and increased current is worth it, so be it.

I have no practical need for them, but still want one.
 

American Locomotive

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You have to read the footnotes. All of their claims say "vs. DEWALT DCB205 battery, not in application,".

That's short for "While yes these batteries are capable of delivering more instantaneous power, none of the tools on this platform can actually make use of that extra power". Which makes sense, since all of the current tools will have been designed around the existing batteries. For the vast majority of users, these batteries will provide the same exact run time and tool power as the existing 5.0 batteries.

You're paying a 120% premium for a slightly thinner battery. They aren't even any lighter than the existing 5.0 batteries.

I like DeWalt, but this is just absolutely egregious.
 

DIYNY

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I paid $100 for two 1.7 Ah batteries off Ebay, I still think it was too much. Retail price of $129 is crazy.
 

mike93lx

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You have to read the footnotes. All of their claims say "vs. DEWALT DCB205 battery, not in application,".

That's short for "While yes these batteries are capable of delivering more instantaneous power, none of the tools on this platform can actually make use of that extra power". Which makes sense, since all of the current tools will have been designed around the existing batteries. For the vast majority of users, these batteries will provide the same exact run time and tool power as the existing 5.0 batteries.

You're paying a 120% premium for a slightly thinner battery. They aren't even any lighter than the existing 5.0 batteries.

I like DeWalt, but this is just absolutely egregious.
Pretty sure TTC showed some benefit from them
 

Jim greengo

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I actually prefer the 2ah batteries in most of my dewalt stuff.
A 5ah battery weighs about as much as my impact I'm thinking,makes it pain to carry around to zip sheetmetal screws in.
I bought 1 of those rapid chargers a while back,came with 4 2ah batteries.
I think I gave $200.00 for it and the batteries,it also charges my 5ah batteries.
The only time I ever really need the 5ah batteries is if I'm drilling lots of 3/4-1" holes in studs when wiring a house,even my porta band and big right angle drill work fine on the smaller batteries most of the time.
 

mike93lx

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I actually prefer the 2ah batteries in most of my dewalt stuff.
A 5ah battery weighs about as much as my impact I'm thinking,makes it pain to carry around to zip sheetmetal screws in.
I bought 1 of those rapid chargers a while back,came with 4 2ah batteries.
I think I gave $200.00 for it and the batteries,it also charges my 5ah batteries.
The only time I ever really need the 5ah batteries is if I'm drilling lots of 3/4-1" holes in studs when wiring a house,even my porta band and big right angle drill work fine on the smaller batteries most of the time.
I like the 2's on my impact and drill too, but they don't last for **** on the recip and circ saws, plus my high torque has noticeably more power with the bigger batteries, especially the 6's that use 21700's
 

Jim greengo

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I've got a small circ saw,I think it's like 6 1/2".
Works good for chopping things off,but I've got a mitre saw for mass production type cutting on 2x4s and 2x6s.
I never really liked cordless recip saws,they just dont have the power of my corded milwaukee.
So when my cordless dewalt recip saw disapeared,i wasnt terribly heart broken.
Since i bought a dewalt cordless right angle drill a few months ago,I hardly ever drag out my heavy *** corded Milwaukee super hawg anymore.
 

mike93lx

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I've got a small circ saw,I think it's like 6 1/2".
Works good for chopping things off,but I've got a mitre saw for mass production type cutting on 2x4s and 2x6s.
I never really liked cordless recip saws,they just dont have the power of my corded milwaukee.
So when my cordless dewalt recip saw disapeared,i wasnt terribly heart broken.
Since i bought a dewalt cordless right angle drill a few months ago,I hardly ever drag out my heavy *** corded Milwaukee super hawg anymore.
I have the same 6.5 and used it for the walls and roof of my shed build with lots of bevels. When you really bury the blade, the bigger batteries matter.

I chose to use it over my obviously far more powerful corded circular saw so I wouldn't be dealing with the cord.

I've tended to prefer corded for stuff like these saws as well and really like my Bosch recip, but the flexibility of not having cords is just too appealing.
 
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Renegade1LI

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I bought 6 power stacks on special a few months ago, they work great for drill and impact, router not bad. I like how light the drill is with the small battery, it depends on what you're doing. As far as price, it's wait and see if they discount them, I will try a set, if no good you have 90 days to return. I like to run my own comparison that way I know if it's better or not for what I do, jmo.
 

mike93lx

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I bought 6 power stacks on special a few months ago, they work great for drill and impact, router not bad. I like how light the drill is with the small battery, it depends on what you're doing. As far as price, it's wait and see if they discount them, I will try a set, if no good you have 90 days to return. I like to run my own comparison that way I know if it's better or not for what I do, jmo.
Wow, 6 is a commitment. Business or personal use?
 

dnschmidt

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MY ADVICE: WAIT. It's the new, improved marketing ******** used to justify the hefty price for every new product ever introduced. Next year at this time the prices will come down significantly. Also, unless I really needed them I would not buy any new Milwaukee batteries as they are going to have to respond to FLEX (who was first to use these pouch cells) and DeWalt.
 

decableguy2000

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I have 2 of the power stacks. They defiantly have their place. Use them mostly on my ratchet or impact driver. For the most part every thing else get a 4-8Ahr battery. I may try a 5 when they come out. Just won't pay MSRP.
 

finn

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I only use the larger batteries for things like the circ saw and sds drill, or any tools that run more or less continuously.

For drills, drivers, and impacts, I choose the smallest battery available. I would much rather stop for a few seconds to swap out a battery than work with a 6.0 or larger battery. Long term productivity is best when I match the battery to the task at hand, including the fatigue factor.
 

david3921

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The ad also says they have "2X lifespan". If true, then the cost is (kind of) cut in half because they last twice as long. BUT, is this a guarantee?
 

American Locomotive

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The ad also says they have "2X lifespan". If true, then the cost is (kind of) cut in half because they last twice as long. BUT, is this a guarantee?
This number refers to the number of complete discharge/charge cycles.

Tool manufacturers typically define "End-of-Life" for a battery when it has 70% of its nameplate capacity left - typically after around 500 complete charge/discharge cycles. ...but realistically, how many of us have ever worn a lithium battery down to this point from normal use? The old NiCad/NiMH batteries - sure. However, I have personally never worn out a lithium ion tool battery to the point where I've noticed diminished capacity. I have seen batteries completely fail (or hold only seconds of charge), but that's not what this number refers to.

I think the average homeowner would be hard-pressed to hit 500 charge/discharge cycles on a lithium power tool battery, especially if they have like 3 or 4 batteries. I still have 10 year old Makita 18v batteries still trucking along just fine. Even if you completely discharged and charged the battery up every day, it'd take 1.5 years to wear it down to the 70% point.

Commercial use might be a different story though....
 
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mike93lx

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Personal use, part of my travel wood working kit, i hate having to switch batteries. It’s nice to have 3 or 4 tools with the batteries in ready to go.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I have a whole bunch of batteries too, it was more about committing to the cost of the power stacks that I was referring to.

Not having a battery for each tool you are using for a project plus a couple spares is very annoying.

Random aside, how's that brushless circ saw? I have the brushed version and it's useful for a couple things, but power and battery life are not on that list
 

acer66

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I actually prefer the 2ah batteries in most of my dewalt stuff.
A 5ah battery weighs about as much as my impact I'm thinking,makes it pain to carry around to zip sheetmetal screws in.
I bought 1 of those rapid chargers a while back,came with 4 2ah batteries.
I think I gave $200.00 for it and the batteries,it also charges my 5ah batteries.
The only time I ever really need the 5ah batteries is if I'm drilling lots of 3/4-1" holes in studs when wiring a house,even my porta band and big right angle drill work fine on the smaller batteries most of the time.
I hear you, I use tools for a living and I rather have tools with small as possible battery because I carry them around all day.
While I use them for work I do not need big batteries or big tools for most of the time.
For me it is more important that the tool is light which is why I use a 6 1/2” circular saw.

When I started switching platform like 10years ago I ended up with a few 1.5 and 2a battery and I had no use for them besides lights.
That changed when I got a drywall gun where weight counts even more.

Sometimes a big battery helps to balance to help though.
The DeWalt framing nailer is a good example which is very top heavy with a small battery so I use the biggest I have which is a 6a iirc.
 
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Renegade1LI

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Oh, don't get me wrong, I have a whole bunch of batteries too, it was more about committing to the cost of the power stacks that I was referring to.

Not having a battery for each tool you are using for a project plus a couple spares is very annoying.

Random aside, how's that brushless circ saw? I have the brushed version and it's useful for a couple things, but power and battery life are not on that list

Very happy with the saw, this one i use for trim and light work so the small batteries are ok. For anything more I’ve been using the 6ah flexvolt batteries or a 5ah xr the saw really performs at its best With the bigger batteries.

I just picked up a dewalt 7 1/4” for work, after a week the crew i gave it to asked for the 6 1/2” saw instead. It seems the 6 1/2 has better balance plus the blade on the left just makes it a comfortable sae to use.
 

American Locomotive

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Keep in mind that the new powerstack batteries are not any lighter than equivalent AH "standard" battery. The 5AH standard battery is 1.4 pounds, and the 5AH powerstack is also 1.4 pounds.

The energies per "unit weight" of lithium batteries are pretty consistent regardless of cell type. The polymer pouch cells are just able to cram more "battery material" in a smaller package.
 

acer66

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Keep in mind that the new powerstack batteries are not any lighter than equivalent AH "standard" battery. The 5AH standard battery is 1.4 pounds, and the 5AH powerstack is also 1.4 pounds.

The energies per "unit weight" of lithium batteries are pretty consistent regardless of cell type. The polymer pouch cells are just able to cram more "battery material" in a smaller package.
Yeah, when I read that they have the same weight they dropped off my list.
 
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Renegade1LI

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There are some good battery deals in ebay, just bought four 5ah batteries for 200$ delivered. New and current year, just have to look and be patient.
 

duneslider

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I'm curious how 5ah in one battery equates to more in a different 5ah battery? 5ah is 5ah no matter how you look at it? Seems like a lot of marketing BS to me? I also haven't seen any data showing that pouch style cells have better "output" than typical 18650 cells. Now, they could be using a higher quality cell, or higher quality construction that could net a bit higher output.

I am guessing this is still involving a high amount of BS and marketing magic.
 

mike93lx

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I'm curious how 5ah in one battery equates to more in a different 5ah battery? 5ah is 5ah no matter how you look at it? Seems like a lot of marketing BS to me? I also haven't seen any data showing that pouch style cells have better "output" than typical 18650 cells. Now, they could be using a higher quality cell, or higher quality construction that could net a bit higher output.

I am guessing this is still involving a high amount of BS and marketing magic.
5ah is capacity. It doesn't speak to discharge rate

Some batteries use 21700's (like the Dewalt 6's), which can discharge faster than a 18650. Why can't a pouch be different?
 

GeoBruin

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I'm curious how 5ah in one battery equates to more in a different 5ah battery? 5ah is 5ah no matter how you look at it? Seems like a lot of marketing BS to me? I also haven't seen any data showing that pouch style cells have better "output" than typical 18650 cells. Now, they could be using a higher quality cell, or higher quality construction that could net a bit higher output.

I am guessing this is still involving a high amount of BS and marketing magic.
Different battery chemistries have different characteristics. Within the typical moniker "Lithium Ion" are (for example) lithium cobolt oxide and lithium manganese. The former have higher energy densities, so you get more capacity for a given size. The latter have higher allowable discharge rates so you can draw higher current from a smaller battery (and safely charge them faster). Meanwhile Lithium Iron Phosphate cells can recharge more times before their capacity is degraded.

Creating power tool batteries has always been about balancing the best size, weight, capacity, power delivery, recharge rate and life span. Choosing different Chemistries will indeed yield different performance charastice. Also, to date, we've been using existing cell formats (18650, 21700 etc.) and just creating packs based on stacks of these cells.

These new cells are lithium polymer cells which use dry solid electrolyte instead of a liquid electrolyte, which allows them to take different shapes than the typical dimensional cylinders. To that end, these cells have likely been created specifically by Dewalt for use in tool batteries which means Dewalt could also spec the chemistry to best suit the needs of power tools.

With all that said, it it completely reasonable to believe that these new purpose built batteries will be able to outperform the previous generation of batteries in the metrics that are important to tool users.

The best example I can give is voltage sag. When you draw power from batteries, the voltage drops. The more current you pull, the more the voltage drops. Let's say you have a li-ion pack that's measuring 21 volts hot off the charger. You slide it in your high output tool and pull the trigger, the voltage may sag down to 18 volts. Once you drain some capacity out of it, it's now measuring 18 volts under no load. Now when you pull the trigger, it sags down to 15 volts. Eventually, you get down to where the tool (or battery's) low voltage protection kicks in and shuts of the tool. You would say the battery is "dead".

The thing is, different battery chemistries are more or less susceptible to voltage sag. One may sag to 95% of the nominal voltage while another sags to 80% under the same load. So two batteries with the same "capacity" on the label (5 Amp Hours for example) may be able to deliver different amounts of "work" because one will trip the low voltage cut off sooner while the other keeps working.
 
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duneslider

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5ah is capacity. It doesn't speak to discharge rate

Some batteries use 21700's (like the Dewalt 6's), which can discharge faster than a 18650. Why can't a pouch be different?
All Li-ion batteries are basically capable of the same discharge rate (within some limits). I have no idea what tool manufacturers are limiting the C-rate to. 21700's do have a slightly lower internal resistance and therefore at a higher C-rate they would be able to produce slightly more "power". I don't have any info to show how much of a difference this really makes in the real world because nobody is telling what they are allowing out of the batteries. I don't know if the limiting factor is the BMS in the battery, or some sort of safety circuitry in the tools. My guess is both but I have no idea. At the end of the day pouch cells are not "revolutionary" as DeWalt claims, they are the first I am aware of to use them in power tools but they aren't new or more special. You do have much more liberty to have them made in a shape you want, and they can be more compact than cylindrical cells but they are not revolutionary, they are more expensive to produce though! They do seem to have a more durable case on the pouch which is a good thing, normally the foil pouches are not very durable.

Most li-ion battery capacities I am aware of are listed based on a 1c rate but that doesn't mean they are going to be used at a 1c rate. They could be used at a .5c rate or a 2c rate, or something else, or variable.

I think their capacity claim is misleading, they have lots of "exceptions" to their claims. This does not mean they aren't using a higher quality cell and higher quality parts to make the battery which could lead to a better performing battery. I personally think it is a lot of BS and Marketing catch words. A higher capacity cell can have a higher C-rate than a lower capacity cell. This is a reason why you tend to see a performance increase with the 5ah batteries over a 1.5ah battery. I am only finding test results on the 1.5ah version too and not anything higher in capacity.

DeWalt is not using a different battery chemistry here from what I can see. Lots of reasons for not doing that at the current moment but the chemistry is the same in these pouches as it is in the cylinders. There seems to be at least one website calling these batteries Lithium Ion Polymer batteries but I can't find anything official from Dewalt on the chemistry and I am not sure what a Lithium Ion Polymer battery is? On the dewalt battery itself it is called a Lithium Ion. If it were a Li-PO battery I would be intrigued but I would think if it were they would be marketing it as such? So, until I see some evidence from Dewalt that it is something besides Li-ion, I am gonna have to assume it is Li-ion. Li-po tends to be a safer technology and if that is what they were using I would think they would be claiming it. There are different ways to make pouch cells and some are better than others and maybe that is what is going on here, normal pouch cells I have used I would not use in a power tool. I am very open to more info on these and would love to know more about what the actual cells are they are using.
 
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Renegade1LI

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So I'm talking to the dewalt rep again, now she says the 5amp might be in the store next week. She also said it's available online but there are no promos yet, possibly the week after christmass.
 
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