HamAndEggs
Well-known member
I already have a surge protector in my main panel (Generac ATC) and one in my first electrical panel. Is spending the $75 each for Intermatic AG3000 surge protectors on my main AC and 2 mini splits worth the cost?
HVAC Surge Protector - Yay or Nay?
- Thread starter HamAndEggs
- Start date
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Surge protectors always spark debate. Imo, they are cheap enough that if they even have a chance at protecting equipment costing thousands, it's worth it.
How far away from the panel are the compressors?
OP
HamAndEggs
Well-known member
Yeah, I had a thread before asking about ones in general and it got very, very long
Each AC is about 90ft from the house sub panel, and the house sub panel is probably another 90ft from the main panel
Main AC is 8/2 Romex on a 40a DP breaker, Dual head Mini Split is 12/2 Romex on 20a DP breaker, and single head mini split is 12/2 Romex on 15a DP breaker
2/0 Cu SER between the house sub and the main
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Those are long distances. Mine are on the opposite side of the house as well, quite far from my in-panel surge protectors.
Supply house has them for about 65 each. I think I'm going to grab two for my a/c's.
Supply house has them for about 65 each. I think I'm going to grab two for my a/c's.
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Vicdog
Well-known member
Ya well now you have to do it anyway cause you asked about it!
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Disregard my comment about warranty. It's complete ********
If your connected equipment becomes damaged while using the AG3000, please follow the claim process below: 1) Process an insurance claim with your homeowner’s insurance policy. 2) 3) Send the AG3000 back to lntermatic for evaluation and testing to: Intermatic Warranty Coordinator, 7777 Winn Road, Spring Grove, IL 60081 Upon receipt of the damaged AG3000, lntermatic will investigate whether the AG3000 had a defect in material or workmanship that led to the damage to your equipment. If the findings determine there was a defect in material or workmanship, lntermatic will cover any costs beyond your homeowner’s coverage up to $7,500.00.
OP
HamAndEggs
Well-known member
Wow. That really is BS!
Makes me question the product
Makes me question the product
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
So don't plan on getting hit and you need nothing. This one trick insurance companies hate.
Metal-Marc
Well-known member
Same as driving your car. Don't get hit and forget about paying for insurance.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
how do you get hit by lighting?
in terms of LIGHTNING hits, thats what grounding rods, plates or UFERs are for and they're already required by electrical code so....
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The words in that warranty are pretty standard. I dont think many people understand surges and the reason for surge devices very well.
I wonder how many people think that if they experience a nearby lightning strike that kills some of their household electronics, that they can file a claim with the surge device manufacturer. Obviously that kind of surge is going to exceed the specs on the surge device and void the warranty. It would be pretty hard for someone to claim that a surge that was big enough to destroy a surge protector was actually smaller than the max specs for the device. And if it was true that the surge was bigger than the device can handle, why would anyone expect the device manufacturer to pay up?
These types of devices are made to handle every day surges, like when the fridge kicks on, or when you're using the welder, or whatever moderate surge comes down the line. The effects of these types of surges are cumulative on your electronics.
Surge products can do that work very easily for long periods of time, so the manufacturer knows that he's safe to offer the warranty money.
Warranties are made in the marketing department, not in the engineering department. You shouldn't think that a warranty is any indication of how good a product performs or how well it's made. A warranty is a SALES tool.
CD
I wonder how many people think that if they experience a nearby lightning strike that kills some of their household electronics, that they can file a claim with the surge device manufacturer. Obviously that kind of surge is going to exceed the specs on the surge device and void the warranty. It would be pretty hard for someone to claim that a surge that was big enough to destroy a surge protector was actually smaller than the max specs for the device. And if it was true that the surge was bigger than the device can handle, why would anyone expect the device manufacturer to pay up?
These types of devices are made to handle every day surges, like when the fridge kicks on, or when you're using the welder, or whatever moderate surge comes down the line. The effects of these types of surges are cumulative on your electronics.
Surge products can do that work very easily for long periods of time, so the manufacturer knows that he's safe to offer the warranty money.
Warranties are made in the marketing department, not in the engineering department. You shouldn't think that a warranty is any indication of how good a product performs or how well it's made. A warranty is a SALES tool.
CD
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
huh? that makes no electrical sense.
when the fridge or welder kicks on, it creates a voltage sag aka brown out, not a surge. its a heavier momentary inductive load on the line so voltage drops due to increased amperage. neither would create a surge so that is a horrible example.
But lighting rods generally are not
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
whoops missed that. no such thing as LIGHTING rods.... now for lightning, thats what ground rods, plates, and UFERs are for.... did ya think they were for something else?
rlitman
Well-known member
I'd say the right answer to this choice depends on your location. If you're a HAM radio operator in the lightning belt, then yeah, spend your money on lightning rods. But if you're in a typical residential home, a lightning rod is probably a waste of money. There's a reason that insurance companies don't normally give discounts to customers with them.
Having done the research and worked on a sizable commercial lightning rod install project, I can say that UL 96A and NFPA 780 are designed solely around protecting your building from being set on fire by lightning, with no regard to the electrical damage induced currents can produce within the building. IEC 62305 at least expects that a lightning protection system will only divert 50% of a lightning strike's energy, but that leaves your building's materials to handle the other 50%, and IEC requires surge protection for this exact reason. The takeaway is that if you install a lightning protection system coupled to your building (and not something like you find with NASA rockets or power substations where totally isolated towers are used) without surge protection, expect your electronics to be fried.
Most modern refrigerators and air conditioners use VFDs on the compressors. Their rapid input current switching causes many surges per second, and yes, those can cause cumulative damage to motor windings (via insulation breakdown, as well as bearing spalling due to stray currents). There's a reason why many newer electric motors have "inverter duty" ratings now. Simply put, having an SPD near the source can greatly improve your device's longevity.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
thats odd. i recently looked at several refrigerators and upright freezers in home depot. not one had a VFD. nor did any of the window air conditioners (2 ton/24K BTU) i looked at buying... in fact, i cant recall any of the appliances having a VFD... now my washer on the other hand has a VFD, but it does not cause any surges on the line...
In any event, in the event of a lighting strike, I would rather have a lighting rod on the roof, than a surge protector on my refrigerator. If the building burns down, the refrigerator would be the least of my worries.
mcbane
Well-known member
Everyone buys surge protectors for lightning but the only time I know for sure that a surge protector worked at my house was a result of a floating neutral issue. Two surge protectors died during that incident. An outlet strip got smoked but put up enough of a fight to trip a 20A branch circuit breaker. And a main panel surge protector also got smoked but managed to trip the breaker on the generator. The main panel protector featured melted plastic and lots of soot inside the panel. No appliances in the house were destroyed so I got my moneys worth out of the surge protectors.
Metal-Marc
Well-known member
You clearly need a fireproof refrigerator.
rlitman
Well-known member
You have equipment capable of measuring surges on the line? I've got several oscilloscopes, but nothing that can capture a surge, though I've been to labs that have such equipment.
Why do you think not one has a VFD? All LG refrigerators use their "linear compressor", and that's inverter driven. Samsung refrigerators use "digital compressors". What do you think that means? Did you see any refrigerators by Panasonic, GE, Haier, Electrolux or Sharp? Yeah, you saw VFD refrigerators.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
yup my fluke meters will....
none of the fridges had linear compressors or digital compressors, which isnt even a compressor at all. its digital cooling with circuit boards. a friend of mine had one of those and the board burned up so many times
rlitman
Well-known member
Let me stop you right there. That's ALL BS. I have plenty of meters that measure inrush current. That is NOT a surge!
The Fluke MDA-550 will measure motor shaft voltage (via carbon brushes) caused by some of the VFD issues I mentioned above, but that $8500 meter will won't measure transients. The Fluke 1746 will count transient events but not characterize them for $7000 and up. The Fluke 435 II will capture transients, but their entry level meter that does this feature is $9500. Nice kit if you've got it:
Samsung "digital compressors" are not solid state. They use VFD to drive the compressor at 7 different speeds. EVERY single refrigerator you see that meets Energy Star requirements has a VFD board in order to do so! They all have for several years now. As for solid state cooling, nothing serious uses Peltier boards. The biggest things I've seen that use them are under-desk and car trunk coolers. Peltier cooling is terribly inefficient, due to heat conduction across the junctions.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
Wait where did i say anything about measuring in-rush current?
Also, the unit i just bought does not have a VFD in it.
Sounds like you're already protected. It also sounds like from the responses above that it does you little good if you have one and your equipment gets wrecked anyway. So I wouldn't bother.
Or better, a fireproof enclosure with an integrated surge-protector for the refrigerator...
MBfreak
MEMBER EMERITUS
Standard electrical theory and knowledge is of little use in understanding the effects in a house electrical system.
In short, the peak is so fast that the surge arrestor limits the terminal peak voltage to a rating decided by the rating of the arrestor,
20 "cable"meters away the travelling wave will give a very high reflective peak voltage when coming to a change in impedance, like an open switch, electric motor or such. The reflective voltage will be around twice pk/pk of the travelling peak voltage, which after even a few meters of cable will be substantially higher than the "arrestor clamping voltage"
No DVM, regardless of price, will capture the peaks which have rise times of µseconds. A fancy memory scope will, if a well designed HV probe is used.
Ola
In short, the peak is so fast that the surge arrestor limits the terminal peak voltage to a rating decided by the rating of the arrestor,
20 "cable"meters away the travelling wave will give a very high reflective peak voltage when coming to a change in impedance, like an open switch, electric motor or such. The reflective voltage will be around twice pk/pk of the travelling peak voltage, which after even a few meters of cable will be substantially higher than the "arrestor clamping voltage"
No DVM, regardless of price, will capture the peaks which have rise times of µseconds. A fancy memory scope will, if a well designed HV probe is used.
Ola
Innovate1
Well-known member
Dranetz is good equipment but it is not cheap. Years ago I rented a power line monitor for a site that had multiple failures of our equipment. Utility said it wasn't their issue and said it was our fault. It was basically a programmable digital storage scope with UPS. I flew to the site, wired it in, set the trigger level to above normal line voltage and told them to ship it back to me in 3 weeks. I pulled the data and found multiple occurances of 660V peak ringing on the 230V at the equipment. About 1 kHz as I recall. It was some issue with a nearby utility power factor capacitor bank when they switched in or out. I sent out the waveforms and never heard from them again. It obviously was the utility. Not lightning though...
Innovate1
Well-known member
That's what happens when you do a poor job of securing them to the ceiling...how do you get hit by lighting?
how do you get hit by lighting?
The equipment we were setting up in Hamburg NY back in '81 got hit. Defiantly a ****-pucker moment...
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Was it high pressure sodium, halogen, or something else?
It was a Reverchon Himalaya, not the one in the picture, but the same model. It was pouring down rain and we were about the only thing sticking up in the middle of the Erie County Fairgrounds.
pcmeiners
Well-known member
"Were I planning on getting hit by lighting, I would spend my money on a lightning rod before a surge protector... "
There is a reason lightning rods are not used for a device with a connection to a home electric panel. Should a lightning hit be close to the protected item, but not closer to your home/panel, a high voltage potential will exist between the protected device and the home/panel, even with a lightning rod ground due to ground resistance, which causes the high voltage to take time to dissipate, so basically a lightning rod does nothing if you have a wire connection from the home; lightning rod or no lightning rod, it still takes time for the tremendous power to dissipate into the earth . Your more protected with a ground from the home's panel to outdoor devices.
As to surge protection save your money and buy MOVs from Ebay and wiring as in the link, very simple wiring. Find the biggest/cheapest MOV for the voltage used on Ebay. I use multiple MOVs (3 or 4 ) for each power/ground leg instead of just 1 per leg.....
www.slocable.com.cn
There is a reason lightning rods are not used for a device with a connection to a home electric panel. Should a lightning hit be close to the protected item, but not closer to your home/panel, a high voltage potential will exist between the protected device and the home/panel, even with a lightning rod ground due to ground resistance, which causes the high voltage to take time to dissipate, so basically a lightning rod does nothing if you have a wire connection from the home; lightning rod or no lightning rod, it still takes time for the tremendous power to dissipate into the earth . Your more protected with a ground from the home's panel to outdoor devices.
As to surge protection save your money and buy MOVs from Ebay and wiring as in the link, very simple wiring. Find the biggest/cheapest MOV for the voltage used on Ebay. I use multiple MOVs (3 or 4 ) for each power/ground leg instead of just 1 per leg.....
Principle and Design of Surge Protector Circuit Breaker
The surge protector circuit breaker is actually what we usually call a surge protector device, also called a lightning surge protector. It is a kind of equipment or circuit that provides safety protection for various electrical equipment, instruments, and communication circuits. It is use...
www.slocable.com.cn
rlitman
Well-known member
Lightning downleads can induce currents into nearby grounded conductive objects causing a potential rise in them. But you can construct a LPS that keeps the currents far enough (separation distance depends mostly on building height and intervening materials, but figure about 18" for a residential structure) away to not interfere much with building wiring."Were I planning on getting hit by lighting, I would spend my money on a lightning rod before a surge protector... "
There is a reason lightning rods are not used for a device with a connection to a home electric panel. Should a lightning hit be close to the protected item, but not closer to your home/panel, a high voltage potential will exist between the protected device and the home/panel, even with a lightning rod ground due to ground resistance, which causes the high voltage to take time to dissipate, so basically a lightning rod does nothing if you have a wire connection from the home; lightning rod or no lightning rod, it still takes time for the tremendous power to dissipate into the earth . Your more protected with a ground from the home's panel to outdoor devices.
As to surge protection save your money and buy MOVs from Ebay and wiring as in the link, very simple wiring. Find the biggest/cheapest MOV for the voltage used on Ebay. I use multiple MOVs (3 or 4 ) for each power/ground leg instead of just 1 per leg.....
Principle and Design of Surge Protector Circuit Breaker
The surge protector circuit breaker is actually what we usually call a surge protector device, also called a lightning surge protector. It is a kind of equipment or circuit that provides safety protection for various electrical equipment, instruments, and communication circuits. It is use...
As for building an ad-hoc SPD using off the shelf MOVs, DO NOT DO THIS! MOVs are inexpensive consumable parts, but their failure mode is not pretty. They often fail short, and violently. Real surge protectors know this, and both fuse the MOVs to limit the energy in a short, and have sturdy cases to contain that energy. At my work, the surge protectors near the MSS have epoxy potted modules in heavy cases, which themselves are contained in steel walled NEMA 4x boxes that have bolted on covers, all to contain the energy of a failure.
OP
HamAndEggs
Well-known member
I read that a few times and honestly I'm not really smart enough to understand the point. Are you saying that one of these surge suppressors on the disconnect of my HVAC equipment is pointless?
Never assume this.
MBfreak
MEMBER EMERITUS
Ham and eggs.
Install the surge arrestor(s?) as close to the expensive parts of the HVAC as practically possible.
Guess that would be the compressor and maybe another one at the connection to the power supply running the control PCB.
Ola
Install the surge arrestor(s?) as close to the expensive parts of the HVAC as practically possible.
Guess that would be the compressor and maybe another one at the connection to the power supply running the control PCB.
Ola
Busted_Knuckles
Well-known member
Ive had more problems with voltage going low and failing control boards on HVAC and related than I have lightning or spikes. Ive got plug in back lit LCD voltage read outs around the house & shop for casual observation.
Found that some boards put up with very little low voltage for very long.
I now have all of it protected from both ( HVAC & Gas water bottle ). I also run back ups on my computers, Im amazed how often I hear them kick in even though the power seems to be fine. I will see a flicker in the LED lighting when there is a problem, but thats about it.
Found that some boards put up with very little low voltage for very long.
I now have all of it protected from both ( HVAC & Gas water bottle ). I also run back ups on my computers, Im amazed how often I hear them kick in even though the power seems to be fine. I will see a flicker in the LED lighting when there is a problem, but thats about it.