Fireball Tool Hardtail Vise - The Best Vise On The Market???
- Thread starter dr_clyde
- Start date
I just noticed it by watching, did not even go back. Nice work!!!Let's compare from screenshots:
Looks like the Wilton was being struck maybe 1-1/2" higher on the coupon, the Morgan looks like it was struck at about the same spot tho
If you were able to hide the fact that $1800 is gone I think you'll manage......................
But 3800$ if made in the USA as the other two. All around I get he's trying to sell it but it's not quite correct...
The chamfered screws on the Morgan position the jaws. The Wilton has a regular screw but the positioning is carried out by a pin. The Fireball has none of those, the only thing positioning the jaws is friction from the pressure. And as he himself explains many times - a larger "spindle" is not always giving you the most strength. The bigger screws have a larger pitch. At the relatively thin thickness of those jaws relative to the diameter of that screws, I do not think these screws will stay tight forever. Such screws should not hold via their shape, they are designed for tensioning. For that kind of thing, a locating screw needs to be used.
And biggest usability issue I see is how it has no overhang at all.
Compared to a big Wilton, for example...
So the fireball is practically a chipping vise which used to be used for cold chiselling metal, before mills and other cutting machines were as widespread as they are today... They're not made anymore because noone does that nowadays. I'm sure an old chipping vise from Parker or Record would be way better for those tests, because they're made for them just like the fireball vise is made for them. Except that such vises didn't even use a rotary base, they're too heavy and wouldn't have much use from it anyway, but as we can see on any vise test they're always the failure point.
So, for 3800$ you can almost get two of those big Wilton vises if you want a US made vise. I think they're much better at that comparison. For 200-500$ you can also get a pretty beefy hydraulic press if you need that. The fireball is really cool and hyped but even at 1800 I'm not sure if i wouldn't rather have a wilton (probably the fireball, it just looks cool
but from a usability standpoint... not so much).Beyond the fact that the USA-made one isn't in production yet, he's not selling on COO. Additionally the USA-made one would perform identically.
But 3800$ if made in the USA as the other two. All around I get he's trying to sell it but it's not quite correct...
Jeebus...
You should send him a letter...
But 3800$ if made in the USA as the other two. All around I get he's trying to sell it but it's not quite correct...
The chamfered screws on the Morgan position the jaws. The Wilton has a regular screw but the positioning is carried out by a pin. The Fireball has none of those, the only thing positioning the jaws is friction from the pressure. And as he himself explains many times - a larger "spindle" is not always giving you the most strength. The bigger screws have a larger pitch. At the relatively thin thickness of those jaws relative to the diameter of that screws, I do not think these screws will stay tight forever. Such screws should not hold via their shape, they are designed for tensioning. For that kind of thing, a locating screw needs to be used.
And biggest usability issue I see is how it has no overhang at all.
Compared to a big Wilton, for example...
So the fireball is practically a chipping vise which used to be used for cold chiselling metal, before mills and other cutting machines were as widespread as they are today... They're not made anymore because noone does that nowadays. I'm sure an old chipping vise from Parker or Record would be way better for those tests, because they're made for them just like the fireball vise is made for them. Except that such vises didn't even use a rotary base, they're too heavy and wouldn't have much use from it anyway, but as we can see on any vise test they're always the failure point.
So, for 3800$ you can almost get two of those big Wilton vises if you want a US made vise. I think they're much better at that comparison. For 200-500$ you can also get a pretty beefy hydraulic press if you need that. The fireball is really cool and hyped but even at 1800 I'm not sure if i wouldn't rather have a wilton (probably the fireball, it just looks cool
(I mean, clearly he doesn't know what vises are being used for these days, the value of pinning the jaws and doesn't even know how to pick proper screws...)
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General Geoff
Well-known member
Locating pins help align large, heavy, or unwieldy assemblies prior to fastening to streamline installation. A couple of 5-10 lb jaw inserts that sit on a shelf, held in relative position by gravity alone prior to fastening, isn't an essential application for locating pins.
Furthermore, the large bolts holding the jaw inserts in place provide so much tension and accompanying friction that a pin is not necessary to carry any shear load that the inserts may be subjected to during use.
I think his target market is shops that abuse tools. Think railroads, big steel shops, heavy duty equipment repair and industrial maintenance. Welders and millwrights are much more likely to wail on a vise with a sledgehammer and use it as a press versus a car mechanic or a machinist.
It’s wildly impractical unless you need that kind of vise. Then it’s perfect.
Look at the rest of his products, he’s not targeting the home shop or the machinist type. He’s selling to farmers, welders, fabricators and shops that deal with bigger weldments and parts.
The Wiltons he tests against are their machinist line. Their C series might be more appropriate but there’s not as many people who have those.
What he should be comparing against is a blacksmith’s post vise, which are designed for the abuse but then his vise wouldn’t look as good when the post vise doesn’t fail impressively.
The reality is these “tests” are more about the advertising press and eyeballs on his product than the actual real world application of bench vises. No one does what he’s doing to vises. It’s just drama to get people to look. And it’s working.
Jason is making a heck of a vise. Whether or not that’s what you want in a vise and is worth the money to you is an individual choice.
It’s wildly impractical unless you need that kind of vise. Then it’s perfect.
Look at the rest of his products, he’s not targeting the home shop or the machinist type. He’s selling to farmers, welders, fabricators and shops that deal with bigger weldments and parts.
The Wiltons he tests against are their machinist line. Their C series might be more appropriate but there’s not as many people who have those.
What he should be comparing against is a blacksmith’s post vise, which are designed for the abuse but then his vise wouldn’t look as good when the post vise doesn’t fail impressively.
The reality is these “tests” are more about the advertising press and eyeballs on his product than the actual real world application of bench vises. No one does what he’s doing to vises. It’s just drama to get people to look. And it’s working.
Jason is making a heck of a vise. Whether or not that’s what you want in a vise and is worth the money to you is an individual choice.
He may be targeting those sorts of shops, but after selling hundreds of vises, many to shops, it was rare for them to buy anything bigger than a 100lb vise. I've had a pile of 6"+ vises in the 125-250lb range and going off memory all but three went to home shop guys who just "had to have" a massive vise. The Army can work on M1 tanks with a Wilton C2, but everybody on Garage Journal needs a 150lb vise...lol.
I'd be willing to bet he sells 20-1 hobby guys to commercial shops.
On another forum there's a thread pretty much like this one, and I said what he was doing was essentially reproducing railroad/chipping vises and that there was a reason nobody makes them now....nobody is really doing the kind of work.
I would have loved to see a 100lb blacksmith post vise in the comparison...they literally were built to withstand a beating.
On that other forum I said the same basic thing you did...this is just PR to sell vises. It's a nice vise, but I don't see a practical application except for all but the most specialized situations.
This is actually the only place I've seen anybody say they've actually ordered a Fireball vise.
slodat
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I would like to have a *somewhat* large vise on a stand for general shop and fabrication use. When I started designing a stand for the fireball hard tail and looking at where it would live in the shop, I cancelled my order. I have plenty of space, but it doesn’t make sense to have a 3’ long vise in my shop, for the work I do.
I would rather have had a 6 or even 8” (if it just has to be huge) Wilton sized vise for my needs. At some point, I’ll most likely buy a Wilton 6” regardless of COO.
I would rather have had a 6 or even 8” (if it just has to be huge) Wilton sized vise for my needs. At some point, I’ll most likely buy a Wilton 6” regardless of COO.
slowtwitch73
Well-known member
His target market is guys who think they need it. He's nobody's fool.
Lucid Moments
Well-known member
Or guys who wish they needed it.
I don't doubt it is a hell of a vise, but I have a 6" Yost vise that I bought for $100 used and it does everything I need it to do and is capable of much more. For me this vise would be a total waste of both the vise and the money. Fun to watch though.
slowtwitch73
Well-known member
I wish I needed it lol.
It's got a big "washington" casted on the side. He in fact fooled a lot of people into thinking it was going to be US made. So he is trying to sell on COO and hype up people to think it's US made. He also only compared it to US made vises.
No, locating pins hold an exact position with their fit. Screws do not hold a position. For example, on a properly engineered gearbox cover which hold bearings, the flange will have two locating pins (never more than two, and for bearings never less than two) as far apart as possible. Their location is exact, so the cover sits at the exact position it needs to, and the screws only clamp it down. You will find this on any cover that holds bearings and is properly engineered, even if it is a tiny motorcycle engine.
For the jaws on the wilton, the centre pin means the jaws are "locked" in two axes. Even if you take the screws away, the jaws stay in place and they'll get pushed on their seat when you tighten something down anyway.
If you look at any quality old vises, they typically used some kind of a joint to ensure that. For example, on the Parker the jaw goes over the top and also down underneath and is pinned in place. Reed used the T style. Prentiss used the inverted T style, over in Europe for example the Swiss Gressel vises also used a centre pin like the wilton, and the Czech York vises do so as well.
If the jaws just sit on a shelf, that only seems like cheap design to me. But of course, depends on the user if it matters to him or not. Many machinist vises don't have pinned jaws (cause it complicates the manufacturing and swapping jaws). I think that for the price of this vise, a centre pin should be included.
As for the screws, they seem standard coarse pitch. In this application, I think they will loosen up faster than a smaller standard screw (cause it will have a finer pitch). The "flange" (jaw thickness) is shallow. If a vise is used, the screws loosen up over time - that simply always happens, it's just the question of when (unless they are rusted solid).
slowtwitch73
Well-known member
If I was in a shop and saw a guy pounding vertically on a part in a vise like that I'd say 'hey ******, take that to the hydraulic press'.
Many Wiltons were made without the center pin...just FYI. I don't know if it's one of those things that went away then came back, but I've had quite a few without center pins.
I didn't keep many pictures of disassembled vises, but did find two pics of different 600s that clearly didn't have center pins.
Some of y'all are funny. If he'd made them exclusively in the US you'd be kissing his ****.
I also think it's laughable to say he's trying to fool people with COO.
I also think it's laughable to say he's trying to fool people with COO.
lol - oops
Someone's a little fond of Jason...he pulled a fast one on people here, no doubt about it.
General Geoff
Well-known member
Fast one? Did he not fully disclose and clarify COO before any customer vises were shipped out? Did his company not offer to refund the deposit to anyone who no longer wished to follow through with their pre-order once it became apparent that the castings are coming from Taiwan?
Where's the fast one?
For the above group I think this vise needs more throat depth. What's the point of having super strong vise with great clamping force if you can't clamp on bigger parts.
Make everyone think it's a US vise, names the foundry in the US in a video, take pre-orders....then tell everyone, ya no, not made here, sorry.
General Geoff
Well-known member
lol
You have to wear your tinfoil conspiracy-theorist hat to see it
reader2580
Well-known member
I think a lot of buyers thought the price was a bit high for the vise when it was announced, but they were willing to pay the price because they thought they were paying a premium for a product made in the USA. I was never going to buy one of these vises, but I followed the GJ threads and watched the videos and certainly was under the impression the vise was going to made in the USA.
I'm not saying he didn't cause confusion. I just strongly doubt he's numb enough to try to intentionally deceive people given the circles he travels in. The guy clearly understands the internet, so thinking the "secret" of MiT wouldn't get out would just be stupid.
Companies who buy it won't care much about COO overall. Individuals will be split along much the same lines as we see here. IMHO the customer overlap between the two price points is virtually zero. Given the cost of MiUSA manufacturing and the tooling/start-up costs required, he'd be silly to limit himself to that, and I think he wanted to offer MiUSA to those who care.
reader2580
Well-known member
For most businesses the lowest cost tends to be number one when ordering stuff. I think purchasing agents would buy stuff made by child laborers overseas to save money if they thought they could get away with it. They tend to not care where the product is made.
I don't think intentional deception was ever really the point, but I do think he shot his mouth off about making this vise in USA for a price, started taking pre-order money and then realized he couldn't do it for the price he promised.
He then had to find a way to back track and keep his promise without losing face, hence the situation we currently find ourselves in. USA made vises are not available yet, but when he started taking pre-orders, the impression most everyone got, myself included, was there was only one vise, a USA model.
When I paid for my pre-order, there was not a selection for Taiwan or USA like there is now. That would have immediately thrown up red flags for me and I wouldn't have made my purchase decision as I did.
Only after there was a significant push back did they do something about it and try to play this off as how it's been from day 1.
If he just came out and said, "hey, costs were double what I originally anticipated, I'm sorry, here's your options going forward", I think he could've salvaged this better. Instead, he pretended we're all too stupid to remember what we preordered and is gaslighting us into thinking it was Taiwan from day 1 and we just all collectively missed that. Dirty pool, if you ask me.
Bingo, this is exactly the "fast one" I'm alluding to.
Lucid Moments
Well-known member
Maybe it is just me, but when I hear someone say (or see it typed) pulling a fast one I interpret that to mean intentional deceit.
Yes, there's some intentional deceit here...mostly around not telling the truth about why the COO thing happened.
Plenty of guys on here basically hate USA coo.
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General Geoff
Well-known member
Just got a call this afternoon from fireball. The very polite customer service lady first explained carefully that the vise I would be receiving was cast in Taiwan, to ensure there was no ambiguity in country of origin. Only after ensuring I understood this did she ask if I wanted to proceed with my purchase. I did, so my vise will be shipping out later today or Monday on a pallet. I will take pictures once I pick it up from my local freight depot next week.
Strouty
Well-known member
They called me as well, sent an email with all the BS backtracking, I informed them that I cancelled my order because of the lie (through omission) that was told and that they better not ship me a vise.
I'll agree with what some others have posted here- that the real market for this vise, the people/companies that truly need it, 99% of them are not going to know it even exists. Because it's a tiny unknown company and not Wilton or Yost. The reason why Wilton can sell their largest vises at insane prices is because there have been Wiltons in commercial shops for 80 years and, deserved or not, that name recognition keeps them going. When a shop with a bunch of Wiltons needs a new vise, they just order another Wilton; they don't spend half a day researching on tool forums for unknown companies that possibly have produced something better.
dnschmidt
Well-known member
I'm in the who cares camp. Jason is a ******* genius as is obvious from all of his videos and the success of Fireball Tools. His vise is clearly a monster. Where it's cast is insignificant to me and would be so even if I ever wanted one which I don't. The guy invents cool tools. That's the only thing I care about.
General Geoff
Well-known member
Yeah Fireball will have to continue producing and selling the vise for the next decade at least before it gains any amount of traction in the professional industry sector. Probably another 20 years after that (and a couple other available sizes) to make a dent in Wilton's market share.
Problem is, inside 10 years, everyone who wants or has a use for one of these will likely have purchased one, and as evidenced by the destructive testing, almost every one of them will outlive the purchaser. Once the market has been saturated, there will be little demand for more production. Unless the heavy industry/manufacturing sector explodes domestically soon, which would be interesting (and plausible depending on your view of globalized economy unraveling) but I'm not holding my breath.
slowtwitch73
Well-known member
It's a niche product.