J H Williams vintage hand tools

Private Lugnutz · Mar 20, 2019

I'm pretty sure the "Superrench" line and the underline script logo were all part of a major overhaul at Williams at the same time, c. 1925.

If you mean "Silent Salesman" generically (i.e., a big wooden wrench display board shaped like a wrench), I have never seen one shaped like a Superrench, or with an underline logo at the top, and I think it would've been a little counterintuitive for them to promote the sleeker Superrench line by hanging the wrenches on a board shaped like a bulkier Superior wrench with an outdated logo.

While I agree with Otg and you in principle about the old stock, I would have the same issue, personally, with hanging a bunch of Superior wrenches with underline script logos on it without clarifying that it was being presented explicitly as a 1925 board.

wrenchguy · Mar 20, 2019

Wrenches needed for the "BOARD".

ENGINEERS 15* DOE
21, 29.

CHECKNUT-THIN, 15* DOE
626S, 629E, 632X, 637.

FLAT HANDLE "S", 22 1/2* DOE
661D, 661E, 662D, 663E, 663A, 664B, 665B.

LIGHT SERVICE 22 1/2* DOE
77B, 77S, 79S, 81A.

CAP SCREW, 15* DOE
721, 725, 725B, 731.

TAPPET
90D, 94, 96.

Putting the list out and like anyone else would like best condition possible at a reasonable price. I kinda a hoarder, really don't have anything worth trading. Lets see how it goes. thanks.

wrenchguy · Mar 21, 2019

ssdave said:
Wrenchguy, I have a 27 special (thin head is the special), 31, 33D, 34 and 34 special (thin head) 37, 39 special, and a 60 single open end. I'd like to get $25 for the lot, most of which is going to go to the postage!

I'd only want the 31, 34 & 37 and $25 seems more than fair 2me for these 3. Whats the diff between 27C and 27S?
thanks. i guess we pm now?

drivesitfar · Mar 21, 2019

Wrench: have you picked up that big display Wrench that doubles as a tool board yet? i'm curious to see more pictures if you have time to take any and post up a few.

SS: i'm sure Wrench's new board will be liking your new additions!!

ALL: I don't have room for a 2x2 Williams 3/4 inch socket board to hang, but now I want to find and buy that big Wrench toolboard. anybody else have that same problem?

Private Lugnutz · Mar 21, 2019

Wrenchguy,

I have some wrenches for your board.

Group shot...

Ignore the largest (731-A) and smallest (723) Superior engineers' wrenches. I took the photo before I double-checked your list.

Five (5) of these are spot on:
- 662F "S" wrench
- 25 (qty 2) DOE engineers' wrench
- 27C DOE engineers' wrench
- 75B Light Service "S" wrench

One (1) of them is questionable:
- A90D tappet wrench (not sure what the A prefix means, but I have had a whole set of Williams Superior DOE engineers' wrenches with the A prefix)

One of them is not on your list (but would make a good filler!):
- 662H "S" wrench

I will post close-ups...

Private Lugnutz · Mar 21, 2019

Starting with the Engineers wrenches and the tappet wrench...

All the engineers' wrenches are underline script logo...

The tappet wrench has the Williams < W > logo on the largest face and the model number opposite. As I said, I'm not sure what the "A" prefix to the "90D" model number signifies.
"Special - TAPPET - Alloy" on the shank.

Private Lugnutz · Mar 21, 2019

Here are the 662F and 662H "S" wrenches... The one with the underline script logo is the 662F and it has the older size markings (Hex cap and S.A.E. bolt sizes, not milled openings). The 662H has the older logo and it has milled opening sizes (5/16 x 1/4). Note that the "662" was forged, that the "H" was stamped (some time after initial production), that it has strange openings (square throat), and that I can't find that model number in any of the catalogs I have. (I changed their position when I flipped them. Sorry. Confusing.)

Private Lugnutz · Mar 21, 2019

Finally, here is the 75B Light Service "S" wrench...

wrenchguy · Mar 21, 2019

great job lugz, i've committed to purchasing some of those numbers from other collectors already. I'll get back to u as soon as i can reconnoiter my situation. :headscrat

i'm only wanting the part numbers on the list with following letters not being that important to me. thanks everyone, thanks 4 ur effort so far! :thumbup:

i'm gonna edit numbers off the list every nite as commitments are made.

i'm glad 22b ain't on it! :lol_hitti

i purchased a march 1915 booklet showing the 90" board.... the board was loaned out to the jobber!

double clik 4 biggest.

tym · Mar 21, 2019

I checked through my spares, and I have a Williams "92" DOE, ends are marked "5/8" and "9/16." It has the W-underline logo. That seems to be the only one I have from your list, so I'd be happy to send it your way for a buck or two over whatever the shipping cost is. PM me if interested.

leg17 · Mar 21, 2019

Common to see the wrench body number (ie. 662), forged in and the variation stamped to correspond with the milled openings.
The square openings are for square-headed set screws.
Picture a tool post on a lathe.

Private Lugnutz · Mar 22, 2019

leg17 said:
Common to see the wrench body number (ie. 662), forged in and the variation stamped to correspond with the milled openings.

Interesting. Not in my experience it's not. Please post photos of other Williams 662 wrenches done that way. Also, note that it's sitting right next to the same type wrench with a model number ("662F") that was all forged at the same time. No stamping.

leg17 said:
The square openings are for square-headed set screws.
Picture a tool post on a lathe.

But it's not a tool post wrench, leg, which Williams made and sold, typically with reinforced heads, and with different model numbers in the same catalogs. And I have a few. These 22-1/2* "S" wrenches are described and shown with basin throats, not square throats, "for standard nuts and cap screws."

leg17 · Mar 22, 2019

Private Lugnutz said:
Interesting. Not in my experience it's not. Please post photos of other Williams 662 wrenches done that way. Also, note that it's sitting right next to the same type wrench with a model number ("662F") that was all forged at the same time. No stamping.

Lugz the ENTIRE 662F is stamped.

But it's not a tool post wrench, leg, which Williams made and sold, typically with reinforced heads, and with different model numbers in the same catalogs. And I have a few. These 22-1/2* "S" wrenches are described and shown with basin throats, not square throats, "for standard nuts and cap screws."

Click to expand...

On the road at the moment. Will try to straighten this out next week.

Click to expand...

Private Lugnutz · Mar 22, 2019

Wrenchguy: Ignore me saying to ignore the 731A and 723. I see them listed under your "CAP SCREW" category. That title threw me and I didn't even see them. They are engineers' wrenches. It's very interesting to me that your board distinguished them from the other engineers' wrenches, because your board is showing the evolution of wrenching as it adapted to different standards. All the size combinations with two digits (e.g., 22, 23, 24, 25, etc) were for U.S.S. nuts and bolts. A suffix such ("A") or prefix ("7") had to be added to their model numbering system to insert new wrenches with new combinations for hex nuts, cap screws, and S.A.E. (e.g., a 723, between the 22 and 23).

Also got your PM. Answered.

Private Lugnutz · Mar 22, 2019

leg17 said:
Lugz the ENTIRE 662F is stamped.

Right. Sorry for the confusion. My point was that the entire number was put on the wrench at the same time. But I can see how that would still support your point. It would probably seem less odd to me if it was a variant ("H") that was in the catalog and if it had the same throat. Also, the square openings do not match the milled opening sizes. I think this wrench was modified by a PO.

leg17 said:
On the road at the moment. Will try to straighten this out next week.

No worries, leg. I see your first point. It is undeniably not a tool post wrench though. It may have been made into one. But it didn't start out life from the Williams factory as one.

leg17 · Mar 22, 2019

Lugz

https://www.scribd.com/doc/64530441/Williams-Drop-Forgings-1912-Part-1

I remembered that I had loaned this catalog to Papaw's site. He graciously copied and made available.
Look on page 28.

Set screws were not limited to tool posts. I was merely trying to bring to mind that type of screw.

It seems that Williams forged the body of the wrench with a number in the die. The particular milling operation then needed a letter modifier to catalog the exact wrench. You will notice 3 or 4 or more wrenches made from the same forging. There are more than a dozen 664 wrenches.

This will make wrenchguys search interesting as the letter suffixes are significant.

Private Lugnutz · Mar 22, 2019

Aha. 1912! That explains it. By 1931 they were no longer milling square openings in these "S" wrenches. Not per the catalog, anyway. Thanks, leg.

As for the letter suffixes, of course they're important! They all have different size openings. Even in the later catalogs, when the 662 is shown with only a basin throat

EDIT: BTW, did you see my 'Gametime! Take the c.1899 Metal Worker Challenge! thread? I know you're on the road, but when you return, I want to see some wrenches!

Private Lugnutz · Mar 22, 2019

wrenchguy said:
i'm only wanting the part numbers on the list with following letters not being that important to me.

I didn't see this before.

The suffixes indicate different size milled openings, Wrenchguy. A 27 (19/32 x 11/16) and a 27C (9/16 x 11/16), for example, are different! See my note a few posts upthread about prefixes and suffixes and why Williams had to use them as different nut and bolt systems standards came into the industry. Same for wrenches they made with a single model number and a letter suffix, as the discussion I had with leg above illustrates.

Do you have a Williams catalog from the same period as your board? If not, I will email you a PDF. (EDIT: You could also use the link, leg17 just provided.) I am guessing that the board may just have the model numbers printed on it near each hook, and that's fine to follow, you will get the correct wrenches either way. But if you really want to understand what's going on with the model numbers, you need to consult a catalog.

Williams also made a lot of SPECIAL wrenches, which usually diverge from the specifications in one way or another (different size opening, longer shank, etc). You probably don't want any specials for that board.

wrenchguy · Mar 22, 2019

Guys,
"The suffixes indicate different size milled openings".

*Yes, at this point if the body is the same, i want it regardless of trailing letter just to know/show differences.

"I am guessing that the board may just have the model numbers printed on it near each hook."

*No markings on the board. I'm following the 1923 hareware page posted earlier here, it list the wrenches included at that time for that board. My board matches the count and wrench location of that ad. Thats the best i could figure.

"This will make wrenchguys search interesting as the letter suffixes are significant."

*Well see, my problem is i don't communicate well. I wonder how many williams experts are lurking and zipped tight? thanks 4 comments and explanations. :thumbup:

edit, what does it mean, unfinished, semifinished and finished on alot of these hardeware pages? never mind, found the info.

leg17 · Mar 22, 2019

I would expect that over the life of that design Super Salesman usage that the configuration changed a few times. You have probably seen a few pictures of them with somewhat different lay-outs. Surely by the end of its life the old USS and SAE designations were gone and simple opening sizes were used.

You can configure the blank board anyway you want to, but a case could be made for focusing in on one particular year and logo and working towards the wrenches indicated on a catalog page for that year.

Lots of ways to approach this.

What a great project!!! You have some fans following your progress.

wrenchguy · Mar 22, 2019

leg17 said:
Lugz

https://www.scribd.com/doc/64530441/Williams-Drop-Forgings-1912-Part-1

Thanks 4 this, i note its april 1912 15th edition, without display boards being mentioned and huge difference in its cover.

I'll share the ebay images of 16th edition that i recently purchased. No date on cover page, only on factory correspondence and price list. This 1 is coming from France. Double clik 4 big.

This page of 1915 booklet shows the 90" board displaying top row of SOE engineer wrenches. The 1918 90" board illustration i posted earlier show DOE's across the top. I guess if it fits, its displayed FOR SALE! :thumbup:

Private Lugnutz · Mar 22, 2019

I also have these very literal, unmistakable "Light Service" Wrenches (also called Carriage Maker's wrenches in the catalog), Brooklyn plant logo, but they are very early, tool old for your board, bearing older 3-digit versions of the Light Service wrench model number scheme, and not the right sizes. You need a 79S and an 81A and these are 679 (they made a 679A, but not a 679S) and a 681 (they did make a 681A). The 681 has the model number forged on the shank near the logo face, the 679 has the model stamped in the face opposite the logo face.

wrenchguy · Mar 22, 2019

Private Lugnutz said:
I also have these very literal, unmistakable "Light Service" Wrenches (also called Carriage Maker's wrenches in the catalog), Brooklyn plant logo, but they are very early, tool old for your board, bearing older 3-digit versions of the Light Service wrench model number scheme, and not the right sizes. You need a 79S and an 81A and these are 679 (they made a 679A, but not a 679S) and a 681 (they did make a 681A). The 681 has the model number forged on the shank near the logo face, the 679 has the model stamped in the face opposite the logo face.

I'll stand pat just using the body numbers from the hardware book page above and my list. thank u.

How do i get my yet to arrive 1915 booklet made into a public link like leg17 did? i don't have a scanner.

Private Lugnutz · Mar 22, 2019

Yeah, just posting them as long as we're on the topic. I said they weren't quite right.

akasrick · Mar 22, 2019

wrenchguy said:
How do i get my yet to arrive 1915 booklet made into a public link like leg17 did? i don't have a scanner.

I go to Staples with a thumb drive with files and they will print it.
Maybe they will go the other way, scan to pdf. or whatever, put it on your thumb drive.

akasrick

twertsy · Mar 23, 2019

wrenchguy said:
I'll stand pat just using the body numbers from the hardware book page above and my list. thank u.

How do i get my yet to arrive 1915 booklet made into a public link like leg17 did? i don't have a scanner.

I have that exact same catalog sitting in front of me if there's something you'd like me to take a pic of?

Edit: here's your board, no list of contents though.

wrenchguy · Mar 23, 2019

Thanks, i'm good on board illustrations at this point. For williams experts, what is the wrench shown at the very bottom? Its not listed in the list of wrenches displayed on the 90" board. That wrench is hanging on bolts/studs used at the only thru holes in the board. I guess those holes are for fastening the bottom of board to the base board. THAT wrench is shown on the 4 illustrations i've found from 1915 to 1928.

I'm interested in finding more hardware catalog pages (other than i have) showing the board and its list of wrenches.

I got about 20 wrenches coming in for the board and trying to decide what to do about refinishing them?????
I'm thinking showing as "finished", painted with polished head. The board is completely original condition, silver painted head and flat black handle. The wrenches in the illustrations are shown finished.

Is ur 16th edition dated?

Private Lugnutz · Mar 23, 2019

wrenchguy said:
I'm thinking showing as "finished", painted with polished head.

I don't think there's any other way to go. You could leave them "as is", but most wrenches are in some state of losing or having lost their finish completely. With a board this cool and in this condition, and a project of this scale and magnitude, I know I would refinish all the wrenches.

I have re-finished an entire set of WWII-era Williams Superior engineers wrenches for a Jeep kit, affecting a fake 'baked enamel' finish with semi-gloss rattle can black. No oven involved. It is tedious and painstaking, but well worth it. Basically, you do three coats, rubbing the first and second coat down with 0000 steel wool, leaving the third coat dry to the semi-gloss.

Private Lugnutz · Mar 23, 2019

wrenchguy said:
THAT wrench is shown on the 4 illustrations i've found from 1915 to 1928.

There have been so many postings of illustrations of the wrench board now, starting with mine in post #340 on page 17, that I have lost track of which one you are doing. Can you isolate a clear image of the wrench at the bottom and post that?

twertsy · Mar 23, 2019

Private Lugnutz said:
There have been so many postings of illustrations of the wrench board now, starting with mine in post #340 on page 17, that I have lost track of which one you are doing. Can you isolate a clear image of the wrench at the bottom and post that?

Very bottom mounted horizontally.
EDIT: No, my catalog has not date either.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

twertsy · Mar 23, 2019

I know you have wrenches coming, but if you need any of these, let me know.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Private Lugnutz · Mar 23, 2019

wrenchguy said:
For williams experts, what is the wrench shown at the very bottom? Its not listed in the list of wrenches displayed on the 90" board. That wrench is hanging on bolts/studs used at the only thru holes in the board. I guess those holes are for fastening the bottom of board to the base board. THAT wrench is shown on the 4 illustrations i've found from 1915 to 1928.

I am seeing a box end (on the left) and an open end (on the right) in that illustration Todd just re-posted. Nobody was making what are known as combination wrenches today, but the were making special wrenches, including Williams. I wouldn't bet my next paycheck on this, but I am thinking it might either be a 990 Draper Loom wrench (see page 24, 1912 cat) or a 993 Spark Plug Wrench (see page 58, 1912 cat). Both are very similar, with one 6-point box end on one end, which is offset, and an open end.

Private Lugnutz · Mar 23, 2019

Then again, the openings might be too small for either of those. Look for another special combo type wrench. I swear I am seeing an offset box end on the left.

wrenchguy · Mar 23, 2019

Private Lugnutz said:
Then again, the openings might be too small for either of those. Look for another special combo type wrench. I swear I am seeing an offset box end on the left.

I agree, but kinda leaning towards what might be a very popular wrench back then, the spark plug wrench especially if its for a model t. It might not be the 1 illustrated but in demand then. Might be easier to find too.

wrenchguy · Mar 23, 2019

twertsy said:
I know you have wrenches coming, but if you need any of these, let me know. Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

They're nice shape but not on my list now. My list is up to date in what i'm needing.

thank u for ur effort and time.

Wrenches needed for the "BOARD".

15* DOE
21, 29.

15* DOE
626S, 629E, 632X, 637.

22 1/2* DOE
661D, 661E, 662D, 663E, 663A, 664B, 665B.

22 1/2* DOE
77B, 77S, 79S, 81A.

15* DOE
721, 725, 725B, 731.

TAPPET
90D, 94, 96.

HeelSpur · Mar 23, 2019

wrenchguy said:
They're nice shape but not on my list now. My list is up to date in what i'm needing.

thank u for ur effort and time.

Wrenches needed for the "BOARD".

15* DOE
21, 29.

15* DOE
626S, 629E, 632X, 637.

22 1/2* DOE
661D, 661E, 662D, 663E, 663A, 664B, 665B.

22 1/2* DOE
77B, 77S, 79S, 81A.

15* DOE
721, 725, 725B, 731.

TAPPET
90D, 94, 96.

I have an 81A in decent shape.Doesn't say "Light Service" though.

DSCF2249 by wvwheaties, on Flickr

DSCF2250 by wvwheaties, on Flickr

wrenchguy · Mar 23, 2019

Thats a nice1, i'd like to add it to the collection. please pm me the particulars.

Private Lugnutz · Mar 23, 2019

HeelSpur said:
Doesn't say "Light Service" though.

I don't think it's supposed to. Those are the very early models with a 3-digit model number, 6XX series. They dropped the "6" prefix later, and those 2-digit model numbers a(just the ** part of the older numbers) are the wrenches on Wrenchguy's board. Sorry for causing confusion with me showing those. If you scroll up, he has a 75B from me just like your 81A.

wrenchguy · Mar 23, 2019

Updated list, I'm only looking for these part numbers. thanks 4 any help.
Wrenches needed for the "WILLIAMS BOARD".

21, 29.

626S, 629E, 632X, 637.

661D, 661E, 662D, 663E, 663A, 664B, 665B.

77B, 77S, 79S.

721, 725, 725B, 731.

90D, 94, 96.

wrenchguy · Mar 24, 2019

Update, its hanging up in my low wall space shop.

Its appears 2be 2 pieces solid pine board, nicely lettered by a professional.

hung next to door to house.

Showing head with some recent/long ago damage along with the top row of wrench hanging peg holes. Its a total of 2.5" thick, 90" tall and 24" wide.

J H Williams vintage hand tools

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