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New service or sub panel advice needed

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ururk

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So, I have a ridiculously long (both in years and in length) build thread here:

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=296935

I'm nearing completion, and would like to get it hooked up to electricity somewhat ASAP. I'd love to beat winter, snow. I'm going to post twice - once with my current setup, and the second post my questions.

Here's my current setup:

Barn 250' from pole
Barn 100' from house

Appliances are all electric: central A/C, Range, Stove, Dryer

From what I recall (may have changed) the montly fee for a second meter is somewhere around $6/mo.

DTE wants to charge $12/ft to lay copper down from the pole if I get a second meter.

I want to run fiber from the house to the barn (avoids issues with cat 6 cable, ie lightning, etc...). Right now I'm using powerline over a 100' extension cord, and it is OK but the quality is poor.

Electrical panel:



All the unmarked slots are unused.

200A Breaker to main house panel, so I'm assuming 200A service.

House is 3,240 sq ft (includes basement and attached 2-car garage)
Barn is 1,300 sq ft (first and "loft")

I have several conduit running through my foundation wall, 3", two 2", and two 1" Schedule 80 grey PVC, with 90 degree large-radius sweeps, buried 24" below grade.
 
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ururk

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I have a lot of questions. Too many to start with. I suppose I should discuss my needs, and go from there.

I would like to run a variety of wood working equipment simulataneously:

A hobbyist CNC (essentially a Dewalt trim router) w/vacuum.
An air handler.
A table saw, planer, jointer, while the CNC is running
Lighting (all LED fixtures, so low wattage)
HRV
Dehumidifier
A/C (maybe)

All single phase. If I need three phase (don't think I will), I'll use a converter.

Just guessing, a 60A or 100A feed will be sufficient.
 
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ururk

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My main question: What is my "best" option:

1) 100A feed from house, "200A panel" with 100A breaker in barn (for the number of slots, not load).

2) Check with utility (DTE) on existing service - whether it can be upgraded to 400A and get a new meter base installed which will allow separate feeds (200A to house, 200A to barn)

3) Separate service to barn. 200A feed in barn. $6/mo fee. $12/ft cable charge.

Considerations:

To run from the pole, will have to go under a private drive
To run from the house, will have to go under a concrete "sidewalk"
If I go from the house, I'd like to run my fiber at the same time, same trench

Secondary question: Should I contact my utility and talk with the planner, have someone come out to evaluate 2 or 3? They have a phone number I can call, but it has been my experience that calling them is not useful.
 
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bad_idea

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I just ran power out to my 30x40 last week. I installed 2-2-2-4 MHF from main panel (meter/main combo box) to a sub panel in the garage. Breaker in main panel is 90 amp. The cable was only $1.50 per foot, considerably cheaper than your POCO rate of $12/ft.

I would choose option 1. You do not specify what the best option entails, for me the 'best' option is the most cost effective option that meets the power needs. I doubt you will need more than option 1.
 
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mike93lx

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I would run 1.5 or 2" conduit end to end with 3x2awg AL XHHW and 1x4 or 1x6awg AL xhhw, fed from the house.
60a breaker in the house, a panel size of your choosing for the shop (put a big one in so you never have to worry about space)

I wouldnt want a separate service. You know the fee now, but it could increase.

Do you have a backup generator that might be desirable to have out at the shed feeding the house? If so, run a second conduit with wire for that.

Nothing you are talking about in the shop will use that much power. "upgrading" to 400a at the house without a supporting load Calc will result in the poco not actually changing anything. Just a bigger meter pan and main breaker along with a big bill for you.
 
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ururk

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bad_idea said:
I would choose option 1. You do not specify what the best option entails, for me the 'best' option is the most cost effective option that meets the power needs. I doubt you will need more than option 1.
Click to expand...
"Best" is a hard call. I guess for me I'd weigh it like so:

Most important to least important:

1) Functionality (ie, 60-100A at barn) - but a large panel so I don't have to worry about how many circuits I can put in

2) Ability to do myself - I don't know how hard it is to dig under a "sidewalk" 24-18" below grade. Probably easier than trenching through a private drive

3) Cost. I do not want to spend $8k like one quote, not including the DTE fee. But, if spending $2K "extra" will get me to 200A - then I could do something crazy like put an electric water boiler in rather than have natural gas run from the house next year. This is where the extra meter could be nice, as DTE have a special rate for space heating (but may only cover the primary residence).

4) Complexity. I tend to complicate my projects, so whatever I choose it will be complicated no matter what.
 
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sberry

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Dte doesn't use cable and doubt they use copper. Number 2 alum gives 90A,,, which is really a lot in a garage. How big is this cnc? Under a sidewalk is not a problem.
 
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mike93lx

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I'd run nat gas before upgrading the entire service just to run an electric boiler which would be incredibly expensive to operate
 
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mike93lx

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ururk said:
4) Complexity. I tend to complicate my projects, so whatever I choose it will be complicated no matter what.
Click to expand...

Take this project as a challenge to simplify.

You don't need to solve for every possibility here. This isn't super complex. Hire an irrigation company to dig the trench. You laye the conduit and backfill. After that, all work is indoors and you can do at your leisure.
 
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ururk

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mike93lx said:
Take this project as a challenge to simplify.

You don't need to solve for every possibility here. This isn't super complex. Hire an irrigation company to dig the trench. You laye the conduit and backfill. After that, all work is indoors and you can do at your leisure.
Click to expand...
Interesting! Thanks for the idea.
 
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ururk

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OK - so my takeway from this so far:

1) Find an irrigation company and get a quote for a trench / evaluate whether renting a trencher and suffering is worth the cost "savings"
2) Go from house to barn
3) 90A is overkill, but I'll probably do that - I realize with length and a higher amperage, the conductor will have to be sized accordingly
 
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mike93lx

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At 100ft, 2 will be fine for 90a. You can upsize, but you really won't gain anything except a lighter wallet.
 
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u2slow

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Your panel label says you can go up to a 125A subfeed breaker.

I'd bury alum cable in the #2 to #1/0 size and breaker it accordingly.
 
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wyliesdiesels

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You really need to back up here.

You stated large house, 3240 sq ft, with all electric appliances and you want to add more load.

Definitey do a load calc first on both the house and shop. Then tell us what you come up with.
 
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Norcal

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How is the house heated? If electric then there could some issues. Since the house panel is a ITE I would use Siemens for the barn they are the successor to ITE and that would sort of keep it the same, the branch breakers are the same.
 
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bad_idea

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Running conduit under the sidewalk is easy. Dig the trench on each side of the sidewalk. Lay conduit in trench on one side of sidewalk, drive it under the sidewalk with a sledge hammer, when it stops spray a pressure washer through the conduit. Repeat sledge hammer and pressure washer until through. Wash the conduit out real good, let it dry, and then glue conduit together. Personally, I am WAY too cheap to pay a contractor to dig a trench.
 
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mike93lx

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bad_idea said:
Running conduit under the sidewalk is easy. Dig the trench on each side of the sidewalk. Lay conduit in trench on one side of sidewalk, drive it under the sidewalk with a sledge hammer, when it stops spray a pressure washer through the conduit. Repeat sledge hammer and pressure washer until through. Wash the conduit out real good, let it dry, and then glue conduit together. Personally, I am WAY too cheap to pay a contractor to dig a trench.
Click to expand...

Because you don't have rocks. Up here, a trench essentially requires equipment
 
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ururk

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wyliesdiesels said:
You really need to back up here.

You stated large house, 3240 sq ft, with all electric appliances and you want to add more load.

Definitey do a load calc first on both the house and shop. Then tell us what you come up with.
Click to expand...
Sq Ft included an attached garage and basement. I think I did it right:

Basement: 25x30
Garage: 20x25
First Floor: 25X30
Second floor: 25*50

But the second floor is more like 20*50 (knee walls), and the basement is only half finished.

All heat (water, furnace) are natural gas.

Anyhow - I'll find a load worksheet/guide and post my results here tonight.
 
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mike93lx

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Garage and unfinished spaces wouldn't be included in a Sq footage Calc.

Do the load Calc, but I bet you could get by with a 60 to 100a service for the house assuming you don't have a big a/c system or a hot tub
 
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ururk

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I ran the calcs based off this website, seemed legit: https://www.ecmag.com/section/codes...lations-estimating-elements-electrical-system

All units in W (or VA).

Based on the finished house square footage (2,175) I'm calculating a 6,525 lighting load

We only use one small appliance at a time (toaster oven or microwave), so I'm using 1,800 for the small appliance load

Appliances:
Range - 12.6K
Dishwasher (derated 75%): 810
Dryer: 5600
Water Heater (natural gas, derated 75%): 450
A/C: I'll check tomorrow, but assuming 5000

That puts me at 137A at the house.
 
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mike93lx

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6.5kw for lighting? No chance, unless that's a basement full of grow light.

Lighting is probably less than 500w
 
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ururk

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mike93lx said:
6.5kw for lighting? No chance, unless that's a basement full of grow light.

Lighting is probably less than 500w
Click to expand...
Well, that line should have been "General lighting and receptacle loads". Heh, I've switched to all LED so if I'm running 6.5kW of light, something funny is going on :p
 
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ururk

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After bumping up the small appliance load, puts the house at 150A.

In general - what does this mean in regards to what size of feed it can safely supply to the barn?
 
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wyliesdiesels

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ururk said:
After bumping up the small appliance load, puts the house at 150A.

In general - what does this mean in regards to what size of feed it can safely supply to the barn?
Click to expand...

with the equipment youve listed and the want to run it simultaneously, you may have an issue.
 
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mike93lx

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ururk said:
After bumping up the small appliance load, puts the house at 150A.

In general - what does this mean in regards to what size of feed it can safely supply to the barn?
Click to expand...

If you are baking a cake, while drying laundry and cooling your house, at the same time as air conditioning the shop with a large dust collector running, while cutting an 8/4 piece of hardwood and your air compressor kicks on, you'll have a problem.

Practically, I would bet you are fine. by Wylie is the pro.

switch that oven over to gas (which would be a great move anyway) and you would free up a lot.

my last house had 60a service. with an electric range, electric dryer, fridge, freezer, three sump pumps, 3 super inefficient portable a/c's, incandescent lighting, a dishwasher and a small workshop. never had any kind of problem.
 
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bad_idea

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ururk said:
I've looked at them - they look a bit intimidating. Are they easy to use? I mean, they rent them, so... they should be.
Click to expand...

Couldn't tell you. I dug my trench with a shovel. Soil here is mostly sand with some clay, was stupid easy to dig it. I have seen plenty of people use them on youtube though. Not saying youtube will make you a master equipment operator, but it will give you an idea if you can handle the trencher.
 
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ururk

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wyliesdiesels said:
with the equipment youve listed and the want to run it simultaneously, you may have an issue.
Click to expand...
I sorta had that feeling. I forgot to add in three fridges (one upright freezer, two fridge/freezers), a sump pump. I can't read the rating on the sump, but it's probably 1000W. The fridge/freezers are probably low-efficiency, so 750W each? Do those get derated since they don't run all the time?

In general I've never had an issue running power tools while other things are running, but I've also never had a dedicated space to run said tools simultaneously.

I guess this is what I suspect: if I breaker 100A for the barn that will be more than plenty for me over at the barn. However, if I use too many things at once at the house and barn - probably not going to happen - on a warm summer day with A/C running - the main house breaker could get close to tripping.

Do this make sense?
 
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ururk

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mike93lx said:
Practically, I would bet you are fine. by Wylie is the pro.
Click to expand...

Got it.

mike93lx said:
switch that oven over to gas (which would be a great move anyway) and you would free up a lot.
Click to expand...
Can't, just put it in a year ago to replace a Jenn-Air electric. Plus, not a huge fan of gas. Never grew up with it except the furnace/water heater.

I feel like I should give the utility a cursory call to see what my options are at the meter - I like the idea of getting a larger service (if possible) and going from the meter instead of the house's panel. So - single service "drop" but split from the meter.
 
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bad_idea

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My plan (similar situation) and suggestion is to wing it. What's the worse that can happen? You pop the main breaker and then have to make the decision. At that point you can decide between adjusting use to avoid tripping breakers or upgrade the service.
 
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u2slow

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ururk said:
I guess this is what I suspect: if I breaker 100A for the barn that will be more than plenty for me over at the barn. However, if I use too many things at once at the house and barn - probably not going to happen - on a warm summer day with A/C running - the main house breaker could get close to tripping.

Do this make sense?
Click to expand...

Makes perfect sense. The main breaker protects the entire situation. For this reason, there's no harm in running a heavy feed to the barn. Your habits determine the actual power draw. (I rarely exceed 20A @ 240V usage in my own shop at once.) If/when a future service upgrade happens at the house, the barn feed is simply reconnected into the new, higher capacity main panel.
 
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Fasthotrod

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ururk said:
I've looked at them - they look a bit intimidating. Are they easy to use? I mean, they rent them, so... they should be.
Click to expand...

Easy to operate once you get the guy to explain how it works and then actually get to using it.

My Home Depot that rents locally is about 30 minutes from me, so I found it was best to just rent it for a day and not rush anything vs. a 4-hour rental with an hour lost just driving plus another 30 minutes cleaning the machine. Give yourself some extra time and you won't be feeling like you're taking a test and always watching the clock.

I've used the smaller walk behind ones which worked okay for the clay soil here in Oklahoma, but it did struggle on some of the dryer, deeper compacted soil and rocks. The next size up was the one that had a platform to stand on, and you set the depth initially then use the control sticks to guide yourself as you go. That one was 'fun' to learn to drive, but once I got the hang of it things went really well.

Give it a shot... might save yourself a few bucks and have a little fun doing it, too.

Mark
 
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