Above 1200 Sq/FT Barn Workshop build

ururk · Jul 11, 2015

Right now I'm in the design phase, though would like to begin construction before winter. I have about 75% of the build figured out, but I keep getting lost in the details.

I'm still waiting for construction documents for the frame and foundation, but in general the structure will feature:

20x30 gambrel, with 20x5 lean-to
Wood frame
One garage door, with one or two man doors
4" concrete floor
radiant heat+insulation
loft area

The details are many and I feel like I don't have clear answers on the following:

Foundation: I want a poured 8" wall above grade, but all the concrete contractors I've talked to want to do block. The foundation will be a trench foundation, 42" below grade. Is there a reason they want to do block? I'm not a fan of block, but am I nitpicking? The outside foundation will be stuccoed over (to match the house foundation). One contractor wants to build up (30” above current grade) another would just dig a trench and stack block to make up the difference. I don't plan on covering it up on the inside, and want a clean appearance all around.

Foundation fill: One contractor wants to use pea gravel ("self-leveling"), another grade 2 sand. I'm wondering if the pea gravel is a bad idea (from research I've done on the web) and if sand should be a mix of sand/gravel instead of just sand (well, gravel with fines).

Floor heat: I want to put tubing in for radiant, two zones. I may end up going forced air, but I want the ability to install it in the future. I've seen different techniques for laying the tubing down - one of the concrete contractors has a staple gun that ties the tubing down to the foam insulation. However... I think it would be better if the tubing was in the center of the slab, so I'd prefer to use spacers or tie it into the top of the mesh. When a floor is poured with rebar and spacers/chairs, do they need to walk on top of the rebar while pouring?

Floor drains: I think I won’t need them, but I suspect I should put one or two in? There is no septic hookup where I am putting the barn, so I can't put much of anything down the drain besides water.

Running utilities - gas: I am not planning on hooking up any gas equipment myself, but will want to run the pipe from the house (or tee after the meter) to the barn. Talking with a local heating company, I can do this and I just cap it off on each end for them to hook up (permit etc…). However, I would like for all my utilities to run under and up through the slab. I read online an inspector wouldn’t let someone put a gas pipe through the foundation because of concerns the frost heave could shear the gas pipe. I tried looking this up but couldn’t find anything on the matter.

And as things progress, I’ll start posting documents, layouts, etc… in this thread.

Thanks!

John

ururk · Jul 13, 2015

As part of this process I've also gotten some rough estimates for parts of the build I cannot do. One of which is the concrete work. For a 20x35 foundation wall, 12" wide, 42" deep, with a 4" slab, and buggying concrete from road to location (100 ft), I've gotten quotes ranging from 12K-15K. Part of it includes in-floor heat, but I will be placing my own foam and pex.

For those in the Michigan area - are these prices reasonable? I'm going to try and get a third quote, but want to wait for my foundation plans before I get any other estimates.

ururk · Aug 1, 2015

The ZBA approved the barn project! More details to follow - I'm finishing up the design of the frame, which I expect to have nailed down in the next 10-15 days.

matt_i · Aug 1, 2015

The concrete seems higher that I would expect for around 20 yards total, but buggying it rather than pouring it directly out of the truck might have something to do with it. Also if they are doing the dirt work/soil removal and trenching this would be another cost to add that makes the figures seem more reasonable. If you are getting 3 quotes in the same range that's probably a good cost...

I'd contact the building inspector relative to your gasline question, keep the question short and to the point, they will usually give a good answer.

I saved money in my build by doing by doing my own dirt work (layout, cut sod, rented mini excavator, set forms) and working to pour my own footing and walls, but its cost me in time. Due to this summer's extreme wetness early on I've probably lost about 6 weeks to detwatering, dealing with trench collapses, etc. In my case I'm doing a traditional footing and poured wall, so there is more prep than a trench foundation. The single row block seems pretty common around here, its fast and easy and has basically the same structural support, if its held together with rebar. But...I'm with you in not really liking the rough textured look. I also plan to go 8" above the finished floor with the concrete wall, just makes it more durable and keeps the wood out of roof splash and snowbuildup.

ururk · Aug 1, 2015

Yes, the quote includes grading, dirtwork, and sand/etc.... It is at the bottom of the slope, so a small swale needs to be made so that water runoff is directed around the foundation (I also will be looking into putting a drain around the foundation).

ururk · Aug 1, 2015

And... as much as I'd like to tackle it myself, I don't have the time to do the foundation work. I'd love to do it, but I have to be realistic and will do the things I know I can get done if I stick to it - siding, roof, doors, windows. If I did the foundation, it would take three years!

ururk · Aug 14, 2015

Question: I got approval on the building permit. Now they need to assess a building permit fee. I was expecting this, but they haven't yet asked for building plans. What should I expect them to ask for besides the unknown fee?

ururk · Aug 14, 2015

Ok - sorry for the short/quick updates. I don't have to submit any building plans, just pay the fee and have the foundation and final structure inspected. Expect posts with plans to follow!

Hounddog · Aug 14, 2015

ururk said:
Ok - sorry for the short/quick updates. I don't have to submit any building plans, just pay the fee and have the foundation and final structure inspected. Expect posts with plans to follow!

Have ya seen my Gambrel Shop with apartment above...? I did something unique with trusses that you may want to consider/discuss. My barn started out as 30 x 40 basic shell with 10/12ft overhangs on two sides. I have since closed-in half of the back lean-to (actually had anticipated that during the initial framing of the 30 x 40 shell...just had to cut it out a few years later) My Garage thread (below) that is tied to my signature covers the front addition to my shop that I'm wrapping up now. The initial design created an issue with rain water going under my garage doors... Now that is fixed.

captain14 · Aug 14, 2015

I go along on this build. Good luck!

Remember we like pictures. Lots of pictures.

1/2 Cup · Aug 14, 2015

Looking forward to following your progress.

ururk · Aug 14, 2015

Hounddog said:
Have ya seen my Gambrel Shop with apartment above...? I did something unique with trusses that you may want to consider/discuss.

Will take a look. The frame plans are more or less set with the frame maker (it is a traditional mortise+tenon frame). Heck, it might be so nice I'll convert the house to a shop and the shop to a house

but will see what you did - is it in your addition thread?

And pictures... yes. I have to get a workflow setup for myself as I am going to do timelapse as well. I did a trial timelapse while deconstructing an old play structure, and 32GB later dialed down the size (fine jpg, but sized for 1080p) and increased the shooting interval. Originally I wanted to build a NEMA enclosure and have a camera on a pole, but that price alone made me rethink my plans - I'm either going to get a GoPro (eeek - $$$$) or try to use my camera w/out destroying it (Canon 70D). Based on my trial, all I need is a taller tripod. However, the area is shaded and the light isn't very even.

ARBuck · Aug 14, 2015

ururk said:
Foundation: I want a poured 8" wall above grade, but all the concrete contractors I've talked to want to do block. The foundation will be a trench foundation, 42" below grade. Is there a reason they want to do block? I'm not a fan of block, but am I nitpicking? The outside foundation will be stuccoed over (to match the house foundation). One contractor wants to build up (30” above current grade) another would just dig a trench and stack block to make up the difference. I don't plan on covering it up on the inside, and want a clean appearance all around.

Block wouldn't bother me, if they're doing trench footings, probably easier to pour the slab on top of the footings and then block on top of the slab, otherwise they would have to form up the whole footing.

vette66bob · Aug 14, 2015

Nice start, looks to me you maybe able to plan for a nice lift somewhere in future.

ARBuck · Aug 14, 2015

ururk said:
Floor heat: I want to put tubing in for radiant, two zones. I may end up going forced air, but I want the ability to install it in the future. I've seen different techniques for laying the tubing down - one of the concrete contractors has a staple gun that ties the tubing down to the foam insulation. However... I think it would be better if the tubing was in the center of the slab, so I'd prefer to use spacers or tie it into the top of the mesh. When a floor is poured with rebar and spacers/chairs, do they need to walk on top of the rebar while pouring?

Floor drains: I think I won’t need them, but I suspect I should put one or two in? There is no septic hookup where I am putting the barn, so I can't put much of anything down the drain besides water.

You only get one chance to do these things, if you think you might want it someday, do it now. The staples to the foam thing is how most everyone I have seen does it, I have done it at a friends shop, works great!! I am in the process of a build and I plan to do 2" foam with Pex stapled to it, rebar on chairs, over the Pex. Tubing on the bottom of the slab is just fine, heat rises and you will end up heating the whole slab anyway.

ururk · Aug 14, 2015

Regarding the chairs - for a 4" slab the contractor was saying he would do wire mesh, and mentioned there aren't chairs for that. Is rebar better?

As for heat rising - in conduction it travels in the direction of least resistance - the insulation slows down heat travel downwards. It still goes down, just more slowly. And in convection, it isn't going 'up' so much as the air currents bring the heat up with it. There's a better description out there about both of these things -> I've been reading about radiant for an entire month.

ARBuck · Aug 14, 2015

I think when they do mesh, they pour the concrete, then as they go they lift the mesh to get it up in the middle of the concrete. What is better?? I have no idea. I plan to go 5 1/2" of concrete with rebar 2' on center and fiber mesh added to the concrete.

Interesting stuff on the radiant heat info!!! :thumbup:

Justanoldguy · Aug 14, 2015

ARBuck said:
as they go they lift the mesh to get it up in the middle of the concrete.

Right, and 90% of the time, the mesh is lying on the bottom and stays there doing absolutely nothing but emptying a bit out of your bank account for nothing.
Seen it way too often. Chair it up at least.

ururk · Aug 14, 2015

That's what I've heard about mesh (getting stepped on). I think I found a good thread on this board about pouring concrete: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=147458

Hounddog · Aug 14, 2015

I did not catch you were going M&T....mine is conventional...so I can't assist....I'm just a spectator now. Good luck.

HSpencer · Aug 14, 2015

What you are talking about on the bottom is called a "stem wall" here. It takes a lot of material and labor to do one and it is very hard to keep from cracking. Most all builders want to do block as it saves time, and stays put better. Heavy pressure from the constructed building can cause the stem wall to crack, and not so the block wall or as bad.
One thing they might do is fill the blocks with concrete if you like that idea. With the work done around here, I would not really trust a stem wall to be done. It takes a lot of rebar to hold them tightly and snugly together, and the forming and labor is what bothers the contractors.
Everyone to their own, but I have seen the stem walls fail badly.

Best Regards
Herb Spencer

ururk · Aug 14, 2015

ICF - from what I've heard $$$. However, if I could get the contractor to pour the footing, and if I were to order the ICF's, I imagine I could place them. They just seem... tricky to install where you need openings.

As for the poured wall / blocks / filled blocks, will talk the options over with the contractor. I plan on stuccoing the foundation, but would like to eventually do a "stone" facia. I wasn't planning on covering the interior wall, though, which is my primary reason for doing a poured stem wall. The garage has a block wall, and I kind of hate it (for various reasons, all relating to the final surface finish and seams).

ururk · Aug 26, 2015

I'm still working on my drawings, but just got off the phone with my concrete guy. Everything's pretty standard construction-wise, but he wants to use pea gravel below the slab. He said he'd compact it, but in and of itself it is self-compacting.

Thoughts?

ururk · Sep 11, 2015

So, at this point I am probably going to go poured for the walls. I'm attaching three renderings.

Foundation dimensions, with side view of foundation and foam layup. I'm waiting for my concrete guy to get back from vacation and then we'll decide on trench foundations or a spread footing, but based on the wall thickness I'll probably go with poured.

View media item 53358
The next two just show the frame - one with the frame on the foundation, the other with girt/sheathing/foam layup.

View media item 53359
View media item 53360

ururk · Sep 24, 2015

Foundation is underway. Just routed a 3" Schedule 80 pipe through the footer (trench footing) "form" for an eventual water run. I'm a bit, well, lets just say I don't know how anyone manages to post pictures (I'm taking them!) while a build is underway. Once the foundation is done, things will settle down and move at my pace (uh, it took me a whole summer to build a 10 x 20 deck).

morehead · Sep 24, 2015

Subscribed!
Planning on much the same build 20' x 42' but would like to have the front 22' open for future hoist install & back half loft. I am just trying to nail down a builder & decide if I am going with "pole barn construction" (please share thoughts). Looks like building code is much the same here,so looking forward to following your build

morehead · Oct 6, 2015

Any updates?

ururk · Oct 6, 2015

Yeah

I've decided to post pictures after the foundation/floor is in - too much happening at once. I have no idea how people post pictures during their builds. Running about 2 weeks behind already.

Basically, the trench foundation went in a week or so ago. Rerod was placed inside the trench and vertical rerod was place every 16". Horizontal rerod is running around the perimeter of the wall (top and bottom). I don't know what #, but can check. My contractor had some trouble getting parts for his formed wall system, so he ended up renting an aluminum/plywood system. Those walls are up and will be poured Wednesday.

I have a boatload of work to do on this because I wanted to save money:

add conduit before walls are poured
waterproof stem walls of foundation (36" on one side, 24" on the other three)
add foam to inside before sand/pea gravel
run drain lines
add foam to top of pea gravel
add vapor barrier
staple down pex
put in perimeter drain

I was not going to run a drain (to daylight) but my neighbors showed me their barns and I decided it couldn't hurt - even if I never used the drains. I wasn't going to put a perimeter drain in, but when the site was prepped for the foundation, the stem wall increased in height substantially from expected. Yes, this is being built into a hill, but there was only a difference of 1.5 feet between the highest/lowest corner. I wasn't there when he scraped the organic material out, but it feels like he went down pretty far. I will admit, there was a ton of topsoil - more than I expected, and I know one corner of the scraped portion was near original grade.

The floor will be 8" below grade on one side, and 2" above grade on the others (with some sloping occurring as a transition).

So - if I can get through the next few days I'll try to post pictures this weekend. Because of the delays, I'm going to receive my frame from the timber framer, but not going to have him raise it. I really wanted to - but I have no idea what other things are going to happen to derail the floor, and didn't want to 'string him along' with excuses about delays on my end. I'll either raise this month myself, or have a local timberframing company help raise it between now and Spring.

ururk · Oct 7, 2015

Walls were poured this morning - all went well without incident. My conduit (hopefully) stayed in place. It appeared to, but I'll find out tomorrow when they strip the forms.

matt_i · Oct 7, 2015

Good stuff, time to get cracking on the floor or wait until spring. Freezing weather is almost upon us, no time to be pouring concrete. I'm at about the same stage, having used most of the summer fighting monsoon rains and dirt work/footer/wall forms.

ururk · Oct 7, 2015

matt_i said:
Good stuff, time to get cracking on the floor or wait until spring. Freezing weather is almost upon us, no time to be pouring concrete. I'm at about the same stage, having used most of the summer fighting monsoon rains and dirt work/footer/wall forms.

I know! It will be in the 60/70's next week, which is when the floor will be poured. Hoping for a mild Michigan winter! It's been getting pretty cold in the mornings, though (47/50). I've been very fortunate re:weather. Only had one day of rain, and it sprinkled.

ururk · Oct 7, 2015

Words you want to hear out of your contractors mouth: "No, that isn't good enough. Even if it is a little askew it bugs me."

ururk · Oct 8, 2015

Forms came off the walls today. Concrete looks great - just one area of honeycombing, and it will be hidden. What I don't know, is if I should coat it with hydraulic cement, or just cover it with the foam (inside wall, below slab) and call it a day.

All of my conduit stayed in place during the pour and I was able to get to the ends. I ran it through the stem wall - vertically through the top, and through the side below grade so I can eventually run electrical. I went a bit on the overkill side for conduit - 3" for the main service, two 2" for internet/etc... future. Since we are going to a wireless society, this might be totally unnecessary, but I figured it couldn't hurt. And a 1" pipe for ground to exit the building (hopefully that will pass code, I wasn't too sure). The most I'll put in is 100A, but probably 60A. I'll run wire for 100A service, though.

Provided I don't exhaust myself, I'll start posting photos this weekend. I have to run my foam along the walls, and I'm going to pick up the PVC for the floor drains and perimeter drain. The perimeter drain might be overkill, but it will only cost me a little as I'm doing all the work (great????) and one wall is holding back 32" of dirt (on the other side it is 24", so really only 8").

jnkpile · Oct 8, 2015

For your floor you mentioned laying down foam insulation then vapor barrier then stapling down the pex. Would tuck taping the insulation seams be more efficient than laying down vapor barrier?

ururk · Oct 9, 2015

jnkpile said:
For your floor you mentioned laying down foam insulation then vapor barrier then stapling down the pex. Would tuck taping the insulation seams be more efficient than laying down vapor barrier?

Possibly. However, there are so many opinions (both scientific and 'time tested') on whether you should rely on tape that I gave up and decided not to tape the foam. Foam will change dimensionally, and reviews on tape products are just as varied - I decided just to put some poly down. The stuff is cheap compared to everything else. I'm also doing two layers of foam, so will stagger the seams.

Important question: should I put down landscape fabric between the sand and pea stone? I feel like the pea gravel will migrate into the sand over time... but perhaps I'm overthinking it.

ururk · Oct 9, 2015

Heh - ever bite off more project than you can chew? To keep the project on schedule (even though it is running two weeks longer, not fault of mine yet

) I get to do this weekend:

1) Install perimeter drain
2) Stack 1/2 an order of wood siding and 2x6 girts (from a local sawmill) properly
3) Trim the openings in foam (I already did the insider perimeter foam today - took 3.5 hours, so they could get the sand in)
4) Run drain pipe

My contractor wants to pour Tuesday or Wednesday, but I need to get the pex in and don't think I'll have enough time to get it in for Tuesday.

ururk · Oct 11, 2015

Ok, got some stuff done, still some things left to do:

Finished:

1) Caulk
2) Build 8' wood platform
3) Stack & sticker 8' wood
4) Fit PVC for drains
5) Fix conduit perforations (note to future self: removing a straight 3" piece of schedule 80 from an elbow embedded in concrete is NOT a fun task).*
6) Waterproof

I have left to do:

8) Trim foam openings
9) Fit outside foam
10) Install perimeter drain (fun subtasks include laying down landscape fabric, moving stone, fitting PVC drain pipe holes down, moving more stone, tucking the fabric, and carefully backfilling portion of it)
11) Build 14' wood platform
12) Stack & sticker 14' wood

Plus later in the week I get to add:

13) Place 4" of foam under slab
14) Place vapor barrier
15) Set up manifold
16) staple down pex
17) unload timber frame from truck (not entirely my job - my contractor has forks for his bobcat)
18) post pictures

And then, depending on how you look at it, the nightmare has either ended or just begun

*Basically I added straight pieces to the pipe elbows coming out of the stem wall. I couldn't cut holes in the poured wall forming system, and my 2" conduit elbows needed a 3" long piece of pipe to sit flush - this meant I had to add a temporary piece of tubing to the elbow to get it to sit flush against the wall. I couldn't fit a coupler (too narrow) so I figured it would be easy to remove the short section. Yeah, easy isn't how I'd describe it. I used an oscillating tool to cut the pipe into sections, then a chisel to encourage the pieces out, reamed the hole just a bit larger with said chisel.

ururk · Oct 12, 2015

So, another day, some more progress.

Done:

11) Build 14' wood platform

1/2 Done:

12) Stack & sticker 14' wood

2/3 Done:

9) Fit outside foam

I have to get most of this done ASAP as cold weather is rolling in. I'm starting to take 1/2 days off of work - not ideal but I have the time.

ururk · Oct 13, 2015

Done:

12) Stack & sticker 14' wood

1/2 done:

10) Install perimeter drain

And for your viewing enjoyment - the first of many pictures:

This is the site once he leveled it to untouched ground. As future photos will show, I should have shifted it closer to the bush, but oh well. This will give me room to add on a lean-to on the outside down the line. The "small" ledge of soil you see there is 2' off the ground. Or clay. It was pure, rock-hard clay.

ururk · Oct 14, 2015

So, didn't get a whole lot done tonight. My contractor came out and smoothed over the pea gravel. When I got home I placed a vapor barrier down (6 mil poly), plus the first layer of foam (except the pieces that need to be cut). And I covered more of the drain tile - I can't do any more on that until the slab is poured.

I have a ton of work to do tomorrow, so took the day off. My plan is to cut the foam for the first layer, trim out the openings with foam, place the second staggered layer of foam, poly, and then pex. I'm going with a staple-down system - I'm hoping the staples will go through the 6mil sheeting.

Then the slab gets poured Friday morning!

Some pictures:

Digging the trench footings.

Foam put in place temporarily.

Foam trimmed to footing pour height.

Above 1200 Sq/FT Barn Workshop build

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