Polyaspartics vs. Epoxy. the final word?

I've reposted this as a new topic. it was originally on page 3 of shocksystem's thread about his wolverine floor install experience. some of us had unintentionally gotten the thread off track and onto a discussion of the pros/cons of Epoxy vs. Polyaspartic coatings.

the original thread is located here: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19098

I still have questions about poly vs epoxy that i'd like to have answered though, so here's my post:.

-------------------------------------------------------------------


I'm still eagerly awaiting a response from Eric @ Wolverine.

In the mean time I've been trying to do my own research here using the "search" feature and also on other sites via google.

First of all as a disclaimer:

Every situation or application may be different depending on concrete conditions, moisture conditions, makeup of the particular product being used (read: not all epoxies & likewise not all polyaspartics are equal as there are a multitude of different manufacturers, formulations etc). it's unlikely that any one product is perfect for all applications.

having said that, here is a summary of the "claims" that I've been able to gather:

------------------------

Polyaspartics are being touted as:
a. "BETTER" than epoxy with a higher resistance to abrasion (remains glossy)
b. impervious to UV damage (yellowing/fading/chaulking)
c. a 1 day application that is ready to use the next day
d. more expensive ranging from $4 to $6 or more dollars per sq/ft installed
e. not suitable for DIY application

Epoxy products are said to be:
a. a known or proven product that has been being used for decades
b. in most cases, susceptable to uv damage over time
c. often a 2 to 5 day installation and curing process before useable
d. less expensive ranging anywhere from $.75 to $4.00 per sq/ft installed
e. suitable for the knowledgeable DIYer

-------------------------

WolverineCoatings said:

I'll do my best to post some answers to some of the technical aspects (almost all of which have been addressed on these forums in the past)

Click to expand...

Eric,
I'm sure that answering the same questions over and over must get tedious. I also suspect that we as "garage enthusiasts" are probably some of the most difficult to please customers. Add in the fact that our projects are usually extremely small compared to an industrial or commercial application, thus the profit per sale may not even be worth the headache.

As for how many times these questions have been asked and answered, a simple FAQ page on your or Fred's (alpha garage wolverine retailer) website would likely eliminate most or all of these repeat requests. why is that so difficult to accomplish? it appears to have been requested repeatedly. BTW, what is up with alphagarage.com? (I'm NOT ATTACKING, but offering constructive criticism) if they are your only retailer, the site should at least be functional.

It is RIDICULOUS to expect a potential customer to search through over 12,000 posts in the flooring forum of this site alone to have questions about your product answered. BTW, I HAVE looked at ALOT of them!

In all fairness, I have not yet called Fred for a price quote or additional info on my specific project. He may well be able to answer all of my questions. however, you seem to be THE expert on the subject, and obviously alot of people are using the website to gather info to decide if they should bother moving on to the next step of contacting your retailer.

just my .02

again, i'm not trying to instigate or be irritating.

I'm very much a potential customer who would like more info on the products to justify the seemingly higher than average price.

if the price is justified, I'll buy. I'd just like to make an educated decision.

-chris

P.S. as for the polyaspartics, even at $4.00 per sq/ft installed, they seem to be out of my price range. I've got 1000sq/ft to cover, and I don't have $4000 (or more, according to a local installer) available to spend on a floor coating. Superior product or not really doesn't matter if I can't afford to pay for it.

P.P.S. what the heck is a polyurea? some sources show as an extension of the polyaspartic name, others list it as if it is something totally seperate?

SuperFord if i may try and answer some of your questions even though i am not THE Resident expert here...

I won't touch the pricing and "justification for it" on the wolverine products... However as a professional installer i am very curious as to the response. I think it is obvious where i stand on that issue.

Superford you got your facts pretty close for a DIY guy as far as the pros cons of the polyaspartics, which by the way is a sub group of polyureas. It is one of those all polyaspartics are polyureas but not vice versa. One big BIG thing i would add to the pro list for polyaspartic and polyureas is the superior elongation. This gives the coating much more elasticity and makes it much more like a ruberized coating. Most importantly it is much more resistant to hairline cracks and the like ever showing through the coating in the future.

I dont know where you are located but with 1000 sqft you should be able to get the price down a little bit... maybe even as low as 3 bucks a square, if you are lucky, for a pro installed polyurea floor. I would highly recomend this before spending what i assume to be >than 2000 dollars on an epoxy floor from SOME EPOXY SUPLIER. I am basing this off of the other forum member having 750 sq ft and spending that much. Obviously your other option would be to go with a less expensive product to diy and you could probably do the entire job with quality product for right around 1000 bucks depending on what you plan on doing with the floor.

Also the polyureas are making great headway as far as ease of use and in the not too distant future will most likely be suitable for DIY stuff as the products become more dialed in.

Good Luck and keep us updated with your progress

Mlynch said:

SuperFord if i may try and answer some of your questions even though i am not THE Resident expert here...

Click to expand...

Mlynch,

No offense was intended to you and some of the other extremely knowledgeable folks who post on this board when I said that Eric@Wolverine seemed to be "THE" expert on the subject. I welcome everyone's opinion on this subject (preferably folks who know what the heck they are talking about) When I wrote that, I was refering specifically to the wolverine epoxy product. Although from what I've read, eric seems to to be a pretty smart guy and an expert in the coatings field in general.

BTW, I actually tried to call you on Saturday to talk about this very topic, but couldn't reach you at your listed #. if you check your call history you should see an 804 area code.

not to sidetrack my own post, but aside from the epoxy vs. polyaspartic debate, I'm not sure how to go about locating a reputable installer in of garage floor products or residential concrete coatings in my area. So far I've only been able to locate GarageTek who isn't doing floors yet but intends to start doing polyaspartic this fall. But they estimated possibly $5-$6 per sq/ft to be a guinea pig customer! Also there is a Premier Garage franchise that is LITERALLY almost touching my property line, and I'm waiting for them to get back in touch with me, but I'm not even sure what kind of product they are offering? HYBRID??? I had planned on renting a diamond grinder and doing the prep and epoxy job myself, until I read here that shotblasting seems to be an even better method of prep. So I had resigned to hiring a contactor to come do that step, and then I thought, if I'm going to have to spend probably $1000 to have somebody come shotblast, then I might as well get a price on a turn key job. however aside from the two mentioned above, everyone that I've been able to locate in my area seems to do large commercial/industrial work only.

Now back to the original topic:

Polyaspartics vs Epoxies

I certainly wouldn't object to a polyaspartic product IF it really is a better product, and equally importantly, IF could afford it. However, $3.00 per sq/ft is my absolute max. I had really all along only planned to spend in the neighborhood of $1500 or $1.50sq/ft (including concrete prep) on an industrial/commercial grade epoxy obtained locally from Sherwin Williams or Benjamin Moore similar to what we use at the dealership where I work. I was attracted to one of these products because I'm familiar with their use and performance at my place of work. and also because they are affordable enough that if I chip/scrape or otherwise mechanically damage them, or if they yellow, I can reapply relatively cheaply. I only recently considered spending more on a product like wolverine or a polyaspartic because I assume based on testimonials here (and also because of their higher prices) that they must be "better" in some way. I'm OK with paying more initially for a product that will hold up better to my abuse. I AM VERY AFRAID THOUGH that neither product regardless of cost will stand up to me dropping things etc. and I simply cant afford to spend $3000 OR MORE to recoat with a higher end product every few years.

this is the root of my concern: are the high end products (wolverine or polyaspartic) going to hold up well enough to be a ONE TIME application thus justifying the extra initial cost. or should I just go with a "cheaper" industrial epoxy and resign myself to recoating every few years or so?

i'm attaching a photo of the floor at the last dealership where I worked. We used a "cheap" industrial two part epoxy from the local Bennette paint store. We recoated it annually to keep it looking nice under SEVERE daily abuse. It certainly doesn't have the mirror smooth reflective surface that I see offered on some of the expensive garage floor coating installer websites, but it looks pretty good, reflects light well for working, and can be cheaply recoated if something heavy gets dropped on it. plus in my home garage I suspect it'd last alot longer than it did in a daily industrial use environment.



sorry for the long post.

-chris

No problem chris... on Sat you caught me when i was 60 ft underwater. It's great living in the sundshine state (most of the time). Feel free to call back.

Keep in mind that when comparing wolverines epoxy to polyurea/polyaspartic you are still comparing apples to oranges. It is my personal opinion that there is NO epoxy that even comes close to a good quality polyurea. In fact on average installers with epoxy and the acrylic hybrid systems generally warranty their floors for 5 years while some of the franchises w/ the polyurea floors warranty for 15 years. As far as the floor chipping, when you have a product with more elongation and give, well, it is harder to chip... kind of like the grip on your hammer. ruberized... Does that make sense?

Now the warranties on these floors are kind of misleading sometimes in that they cover adhesion and the instalation more than scratches and dings... it is a wear item afterall! However in a residential environment i couldnt possibly see you needing to recoat any time soon at all.

If you have any hope of getting an instalation cost to where you want it you would need to probably find someone who isn't a franchise... I would especially stay away from the guys with no experience that dont even know the price yet. I wouldnt even consider a contractor that doesnt own their own diamond grinding equipment (a must for most manufacturers to warranty their products). The prep equipment is really the biggest overhead to install these floors so it should be a big red flag if someone doesnt own their own stuff.

To be honest with all this controversy lately and the pricing i have been seeing i am going to seriously look into providing you guys with a polyaspartic kit to DIY made up of professional products with 100 percent chip coverage! i am fully confident that it CAN come in cheaper than some of the alternatives while being much higher quality product and on par with professional floors...

as far as shotblasting i am copy and pasting a response from another thread but to sum it up if it saves you money rent the grinder...

Floorguy said:

Mlynch,

I agree with the majority of your post but must disagree with the no shotblast comment. No busting chops intended. I also do this for a living and in my opinion shot blasting is the best prep inthe hands of a skilled user. It leaves the best profile and that is what mechanical bond is all about.

Click to expand...

You are right about the profile, however the industry is moving away from shotblasting because of the vertical impact of the beads. This supposedly weakens the top layer of concrete (lowers tensile strength)that is left because of micro cracks/fractures. It is like hitting the concrete with thousands of small hamers whereas grinding is a horizontal process... This all theoretically makes it so the coating can fail prematurely because of the concrete degredation.

I personally dont have an opinion on shotblasting but i do know that the majority (my guess is over half)of the epoxy/poly manufacters are requireing grinding and not shot blast for them to warranty the installation. I am sure some will still use shotblasting though for years and years to come. Some say this is just propaganda from the influx of grinder manufacters in the past 4 or 5 years but the logic seams sound on paper.

Trends change... shot blasting has worked decent for years(a lot of them). Everyone is just starting to beleive that it is not the best way. A little food for thought... blasttrack one of the big names in shotblast technology has came out with their own line of diamond grinders. If their shot blast technology was supperior then why?

As far as best profile... Well, you can acheive some very aggressive texture/profile through grinding with a planetary especially w/ 24 grit or pcd diamonds. I would say this is a toss up between the two. But for thin mill coatings a lot of times shotblasting will be TOO aggressive in profile. A grinder is much easier to control and change profile in my experience.

Hi Superford,

Sorry it's taken me so long to get in here. We've been VERY busy. We started shipping materials for 4th of July shutdowns early in May. And, it's not over yet... We've just got to get through another couple of weeks of these long days! It's pretty late right now so I probably won't get through all of this.

First, we have THOUSANDS of formulations including polyaspartic. I would never sell polyaspartic for a DIY application. In fact, we only sell it where we need quick return to service in an exterior application to a qualified contractor.

Polyaspartics are being touted as:
a. "BETTER" than epoxy with a higher resistance to abrasion (remains glossy)
b. impervious to UV damage (yellowing/fading/chaulking)
c. a 1 day application that is ready to use the next day
d. more expensive ranging from $4 to $6 or more dollars per sq/ft installed
e. not suitable for DIY application

Epoxy products are said to be:
a. a known or proven product that has been being used for decades
b. in most cases, susceptable to uv damage over time
c. often a 2 to 5 day installation and curing process before useable
d. less expensive ranging anywhere from $.75 to $4.00 per sq/ft installed
e. suitable for the knowledgeable DIYer

Click to expand...

a. "BETTER" than epoxy with a higher resistance to abrasion (remains glossy)

Click to expand...

This one is not always true. This depends on the formulation. We have epoxy technology that only loses 9mg on a taber abrasor test. In comparision, a good polyaspartic loses 70-200. So, that would make that epoxy 6 times more abrasion resistant than the polyaspartic. So, while this is a good 'general' statement it is not always true.

b. in most cases, susceptable to uv damage over time

Click to expand...

This is a true statement but leaves out that Hydrogenated epoxies have pretty good exterior durability.

c. often a 2 to 5 day installation and curing process before useable

Click to expand...

We have epoxy products that are returned to service in a couple of hours. Again... it's difficult to make these general kinds of statements...

d. less expensive ranging anywhere from $.75 to $4.00 per sq/ft installed

Click to expand...

Then again... We have some products that are about $36/ft... installed. They are impressive though...

I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that it's hard to generalize. Technology is progressing at lightning like speed. Our company sees and works with new technologies years before they are ever introduced commercially. It's easy to get paralyzed with information.

Eric,
I'm sure that answering the same questions over and over must get tedious. I also suspect that we as "garage enthusiasts" are probably some of the most difficult to please customers. Add in the fact that our projects are usually extremely small compared to an industrial or commercial application, thus the profit per sale may not even be worth the headache.

As for how many times these questions have been asked and answered, a simple FAQ page on your or Fred's (alpha garage wolverine retailer) website would likely eliminate most or all of these repeat requests. why is that so difficult to accomplish? it appears to have been requested repeatedly. BTW, what is up with alphagarage.com? (I'm NOT ATTACKING, but offering constructive criticism) if they are your only retailer, the site should at least be functional.

Click to expand...

We've done a good job of keeping up until about a month ago. AlphaGarage is working on his site and he's the guy for us. And, for us... you're right... We don't exactly get excited about product for a garage floor. However, they are fun. It's a nice distraction and most everyone on garage journal has been great. In fact, we actually have a few guys that did their floors months ago that just call to talk from time to time. So, we've made a few friends along the way and there is value there. Fred may not have his site up yet, but he's also not pushing sales (anywhere but here). From what I've seen, he has done a pretty good job of answering questions to those asking. While I think you're right about the FAQs, I've GOT to focus my energy on bigger things. The DIY market is only about 1% of our business. I have confidence that Fred will get things up and running.

In all fairness, I have not yet called Fred for a price quote or additional info on my specific project. He may well be able to answer all of my questions. however, you seem to be THE expert on the subject, and obviously alot of people are using the website to gather info to decide if they should bother moving on to the next step of contacting your retailer.

just my .02

Click to expand...

It's really good points. It might even be worth MORE than two cents... lol... I would suggest that you go ahead and send Fred an e-mail. I suspect he'll get you squared away.

again, i'm not trying to instigate or be irritating.

I'm very much a potential customer who would like more info on the products to justify the seemingly higher than average price.

if the price is justified, I'll buy. I'd just like to make an educated decision.

-chris

Click to expand...

I know that mlynch has been spouting that we are $2.67 per ft2. You should see what your floor is going to cost the way you want it. Just like his facts have been off on other issues I think they are off on that number as well. However, if you choose, you can have a floor as thick as you want for whatever purpose you want. We have products starting in the $0.15/ft range going up to... well... the sky is the limit. But, you probably don't have a nuclear reactor in your garage... right?

P.P.S. what the heck is a polyurea? some sources show as an extension of the polyaspartic name, others list it as if it is something totally seperate?

Click to expand...

I see that mlynch didn't respond to this... I'm not just bashing him... I'm making a point that you need to be careful who you get advice from. I see that he is saying that no epoxy is as good yet he doesn't even know what a polyurea is.

A polyurea is the reaction product of an amine (epoxy curing agent-part b) and an isocyanate (urethane curing agent-part b). Not all polyureas are exterior durable as I've seen someone post. The most basic distinction of various polyurea technology is aliphatic or aromatic. I've seen MANY failures of polyurea... even one today. There is a big debate about pure polyureas and hybrid polyureas. Which is better? Again, it all depends on what the use (and abuse) is.

A polyaspartic is the reaction of an isocyanate and a polyaspartic ester. Since a polyaspartic ester is actually a diamine it fits the description I gave about of the iso reacting with an amine. Therefore, it can also be considered a polyurea.

There are alot of inherent problems with polyaspartic coatings. The biggest issue is slowing these suckers down. MANY professionals use solvents like PM Acetate to do this. The problem is that when you add solvent you MUST apply thin fils. This means that you have to do multiple coats. The guy a couple of weeks ago who had the new polyaspartic coating that was gagging everyone is a victim of this. It appears (I have a sample that we analyzed in our lab) that the PM Acetate was trapped in the coating because it couldn't evaporate before the polyaspartic cured.

So, in the 70s the great thing was lead in gas... then... they decided that MTBE should replace lead since it was killing us. Now, they have decided that ethanol is the great hope. Just like all of those things looked like a great idea, so does polyaspartic. Don't get me wrong. We have a product called EnduraShield 4101 that is a great clear polyaspartic. BUT... it has it's place. And, even though our formulation is modified to have awesome resistance to moisture during application (since polyaspartics are moisture sensitive) I still would not sell it for a DIY application.

If you can find a contractor to apply it for $3 per foot... RUN! The last thing you need is a low-rent applicator who is going to do a half-way job. Good contractors are busy... busy contractors charge more...

Uh huh... polyurea is ****.

http://www.concreteconstruction.net/industry-news.asp?sectionID=711&articleID=376817

I answered his question in lay terms... he wanted to know what a polyurea was vs polyaspartic. For his purpose they are one and the same... So i am sure your answer helped him greatly!!!

You do the math 750 sq ft @ 2000 dollars in material... what does that come to a sq ft? dont insult everyones intelligence. I bet most of your floors come in much less expesive than that i got involved because i think fred or whoever took advantage of shocksystems and loaded him up with a bunch of overpriced material he didn't need.

If i remember correctly ford has 1000 sq ft at an average material cost of a buck a square foot from several manufacturers of polyaspartic systems and add in 50 cent a square foot to cover rollers squeegee gas and labor. That leaves 1.50 a sqft in profit over a job that will take 2 days. So i figure that as 750 dollars a day for me and one guys labor. Yeah RUN FORD... Alpha or wolverine might nail you for their 200-300 percent profit margins!!!

The average garage is 400 sq ft so if i get a job that is 2.5 times the size i will cut them a break to a degree... personally i wouldn't have rushed into 3 bucks a square but could i do it and make decent money? well read the above paragraph. What do you make per day that makes 750 bucks unacceptable?

WolverineCoatings said:

We have epoxy technology that only loses 9mg on a taber abrasor test. In comparision, a good polyaspartic loses 70-200. So, that would make that epoxy 6 times more abrasion resistant than the polyaspartic. So, while this is a good 'general' statement it is not always true.


This is a true statement but leaves out that Hydrogenated epoxies have pretty good exterior durability.


We have epoxy products that are returned to service in a couple of hours. Again... it's difficult to make these general kinds of statements...


Then again... We have some products that are about $36/ft... installed. They are impressive though...

Click to expand...

So what does your bondtite score on an abrasion test... thats what we are trying to compare. Jesus MAN apples to apples!!!! I have a diamond that will kick both of the products butts but this doesn't have anything to do with the price of tea in china. That being said your polyaspartics are obviously below average because the polyaspartics i use only had between 20-30 mg loss in the taber test (not 70 -200). Don't beleive me? Check citadel's site their products was 30 but hey they back up their claims with results... So far we can't say the same about you?

Hydrogenated epoxy do MUCH better in exterior applications but are still not 100 percent UV Stable... Just because you CAN get away with something should you?

Epoxy products that return to service in a few hours have the same debatable properties of polyaspartics... the fact that they cure too quickly to WET the concrete for adhesion. If you use a product improperly it won' work duh! both epoxies and polyaspartics can have this problem. Its just more prevailant in super fast cure products IF used improperly. There are thousands of floors being installed daily with polyaspartic do you think that there is any debate?

Oh and we are not talking about anything that is 36 dollars a ft... I am a bit curious as to what this is because epoxy terrazzo that is a 1/4 inch thick costs about half that.

So lets get back to apples here and stop trying NOT to answer direct questions!

God I just can't help it... i just looked at wolverines website and a curious thing about their products. None of their data sheets include specs: tensile strength, compresive strength, uv stability, abrasion resistance, and so on. Why? They ARE premium products. right?

Also it is curious that they dont state any kind of UV stability built into bondtite primer... Which is in fact marketed as a primer that could possibly be used as a topcoat. While not only making it that much more overpriced if it is true that it is not uv resistant then it would also make it unsuitable for a topcoat that would be under ANY UV exposure... that is unless you like amber colored floors.

http://wolverinecoatings.com/datasheet/BondTite/BondTite1101-(TDB)-(E).pdf

EDIT*******
Wow this gets even better bond tite is NOT UV STABLE... wow now i am fairly certain you guys are ripping off the members of this board selling a primer as a top coat... a 75 dollar a gallon primer at that.
Here is the proof right from the wolfs mouth!!

http://www.wolverinecoatings.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1073

If i remember correctly ford has 1000 sq ft at an average material cost of a buck a square foot from several manufacturers of polyaspartic systems and add in 50 cent a square foot to cover rollers squeegee gas and labor. That leaves 1.50 a sqft in profit over a job that will take 2 days. So i figure that as 750 dollars a day for me and one guys labor. Yeah RUN FORD... Alpha or wolverine might nail you for their 200-300 perc

Click to expand...

After reading through about three different threads with a ******* contest going on, it kind of makes one look at VCT a little harder. Quite a few one here are DIY'ers so epoxy is the way to go for the DIY'er. After reading through 2 or 3 replies in each thread makes one start looking at individuals instead of product. I have noticed one thing though is that one wants to argue a point on a product that is not available to a DIY'er. And that comes from this thread http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19387
Case in point was the question from 5wndwcpe

Is a polyaspartic available in small quantities ?

Click to expand...

And the response from Mlynch

Well thats a tough one... they are not yet really readily available to DIY guys YET I am sure though that if oyu tried you could get some. How small is small?

Click to expand...

So my question is this....if you are selling a product that is not available to a DIY'er and Wolverine coatings DO SELL a product to a DIY'er, then why the poking with a stick in most of the threads? I have noticed that in a lot of the threads that when a question is asked about flooring, Mlynch replies about a product super to Wolverine, then pokes with a stick to try and get a response. Two main threads turned into a battle that should have just continued in one thread. I'm no expert on flooring by a long shot, but when I go to do my floor, I will be the one doing it. I do know the type of person I would want to deal with. I do know that I won't deal with someone that pushes their product down ones throat. I will deal with someone that lays the facts out without trying to make the other guy out the bad guy.

Polyaspartic isn't easy to get as a do it yourselfer but it is available... Citadel has a division that sells kits of DIY polyaspartic (i can't remember its name). They are pricey because they are the only game in town i know of.

However, The initiall poking with a stick came because in my opinion a member of the board was taken advantage of, to a degree, price wise. There are DIY systems that can at the very least claim UV resistance even epoxies. A Great epoxy floor with uv stability can be had for material @ around $1 to $1.50 a sq ft material cost for a diy'fer and less for an installer. 2.67 a square is overprised in my opinion and i wanted to convey why and it turned into this mess.

The debate on polyaspartics came between me comparing cost of a professional system vs cost of what wolverines system cost shocksystem... and the pros and cons of each. (note that even this thread is comparing professional installed polyaspartic vs diy epoxy we have never mentioned diy polyaspartic)

Then the debate over wolverine disagreeing that they were superior. We can just agree to disagree on that for now.

I am here fighting for you guys here Kevin I don't like seeing people get taken advantage of. Its like seeing someone buy a car for over MSRP... It irks you. I have been an installer of these products for several years and am just on here promoteing the right way. For the price you are paying you should have a proper uv resistant system... Epoxies can work great for diy guys, i am not arguing that at all, but it is my personal opinion that there are superior epoxy products for your use than what is being pedaled here.

Oh, I am not selling any product BTW. I dont plan to either but i suggested to my manufacturer that he should bring together a kit with the proper components at a reasonable price to show you guys here on the board what you COULD be getting.

ok, were can a diy get a better epoxie floor with uv res. for a 1.00-1.50 a sq.ft . i ask this because wolverine dose seem to have a good product. and when compared to other epoxies that i have seen it is about the same price. many people have a wolverine floor and i have not seen any bad things said.I even contacted him about doing my floor. right now it is just not in my budget. I have searched the floor you are pushing and the few places that do sell it cost just as much as wolverines. this is where my point comes in. both floors in my opinion cost the same or very close. wolverine has been proven to me that it dose hold up. Polyaspartics has not been proven to me. ok now show me an epoxie that is as good or better than wolverings for a 1.00 a sq and I will take 750 sq. and install it. i will tell everthing about it here on this board. By the way i live in ny i have a lift in my garage and it gets used i do alot . the floor will get abused i do not have a show car garage i do have a very clean very used working garage. my garage does not have any windows. so the uv thing does not bother me.it dose have heat and ac in it. i would just love to have a cheap floor that can hold up to what i throw at it and honestly i dont think it is possible for less than 2.50 a sq diy this is jmho and if you could prove me wrong and get me a floor for 1.00 to 1.50 a sq that holds up you would be my hero!
Tim

HMMMM....... IS SOMETHING THAT CHEAP REALLY GOING TO HOLD UP? I WOULD BE HAPPY IF I GOT 5 GOOD YEARS OUT OF IT.
TELL ME WHAT YOU CAN DO

Tim, As an installer a profesional grade true polyaspartic floor costs me 1.00 - 1.50 a square ft to install.

If i stepped down to epoxy that number goes down signifigantly... That being said as an end user you will pay slightly more.

Devoe has a UV resistant epoxy (i think 100 percent solids) that is readily available... I am unsure on price but let me talk about some stuff i know for a fact.

I use a water clear uv resistant epoxy that costs me roughly 60 dollars a gallon... i buy in 15 gallon quantity so if you allow some money in there for repackaging and what not you have a superior epoxy top coat for less than some others on here. I say superior because it is ACTUALLY uv resistant i have had it on installations outdoors in constant uv for over 6 moths and so far it has gone great. Now as it was stressed to me i will stress to you this is still an epoxy and won't be advertised as 100 percent UV stable but as UV resistant.

So for the top coat you would need 3 gallons at 60-75 a gallon... we will call it 180-225 $

The broadcast coat the epoxies cost me roughly 45 dollars a gallon for 15 gallon quantities so in theory for repackaging add a few bucks... you would need about the same 3 gallons over 750 sq ft.

So for broadcast coat 3 gallons comes to... 150-165ish

Chips i can order for 2-3 bucks a lb and for 750 square ft i would recomend 100 lbs to do a full broadcast... It is a much classier look in my opinion and adds thickness to the floor. This comes to another 230-300 dollars depending on options and mix here.

So on the high side of all those numbers and even if we add a gallon of each product just so you have extra you are still under or at a buck a square foot. Obviously this would be plus freight and also keep a little bit of money for some prep...

This is an epoxy system w/ extremely good epoxy that i can pull the spec sheets on and we can compare the tensile strength and compresive strength and abrasion resistance and whatever to any other product that wants to go head to head... both products are 100 percent solids and are very easy to use. The broadcast products has excellent wetting characteristics and doesnot need an extra primer step with proper prep. Broadcast directly into the first coat.

I will find some pictures of a floor i did with these exact products about 6 months ago and a floor we did with these products a couple weeks ago. With this exact method. Sometimes my customers ask me if i can drop my price and if i can't get them to pay for the polyaspartic we will over them this epoxy floor system as an alternative...

I WAS THINKING OF DEVOE I CAN GET THAT DOWN THE STREET FROM ME. I WOULD NOT WANT FLAKES JUST A GREY OR WHITE. DOSE THIS HOLD UP IN A WORKING GARAGE AND HOW IS IT TO REPAIR ?
TIM

Well there is a lot to be said for the flakes... the specklede apearance hides dirt and defects and gives the floor some decorative aspect and some texture.

I can't go out on a limb on devoe other than they are a big reputable company... if it is 100 percent solids and uv stable from devoe then well i am sure you could do it for much much less than a buck a square for just a solid color...

Here are the pics of the epoxy system we use when not using polyaspartic... initially it looks just as good as our other system however long term it is still my opinion that the polyaspartic is superior in gloss retention and durability. Both systems we use 100 percent chip coverage and no pigment in the polymer meaning that 100 percent color comes from the chips...

a properly prepped floor before coating

after pictures of epoxy system 3 months or so after instalation



one more

after pictures of garage a couple weeks after installation Pictures taken after a call back for a repair... Somehow this customer spilled some extra epoxy i gave him and made a nice little mess... a little sanding and some extra chips and you wouldn't have ever known.

Mlynch said:

Tim, As an installer a profesional grade true polyaspartic floor costs me 1.00 - 1.50 a square ft to install.

If i stepped down to epoxy that number goes down signifigantly... That being said as an end user you will pay slightly more.

Devoe has a UV resistant epoxy (i think 100 percent solids) that is readily available... I am unsure on price but let me talk about some stuff i know for a fact.

I use a water clear uv resistant epoxy that costs me roughly 60 dollars a gallon... i buy in 15 gallon quantity so if you allow some money in there for repackaging and what not you have a superior epoxy top coat for less than some others on here. I say superior because it is ACTUALLY uv resistant i have had it on installations outdoors in constant uv for over 6 moths and so far it has gone great. Now as it was stressed to me i will stress to you this is still an epoxy and won't be advertised as 100 percent UV stable but as UV resistant.

So for the top coat you would need 3 gallons at 60-75 a gallon... we will call it 180-225 $

The broadcast coat the epoxies cost me roughly 45 dollars a gallon for 15 gallon quantities so in theory for repackaging add a few bucks... you would need about the same 3 gallons over 750 sq ft.

So for broadcast coat 3 gallons comes to... 150-165ish

Chips i can order for 2-3 bucks a lb and for 750 square ft i would recomend 100 lbs to do a full broadcast... It is a much classier look in my opinion and adds thickness to the floor. This comes to another 230-300 dollars depending on options and mix here.

So on the high side of all those numbers and even if we add a gallon of each product just so you have extra you are still under or at a buck a square foot. Obviously this would be plus freight and also keep a little bit of money for some prep...

This is an epoxy system w/ extremely good epoxy that i can pull the spec sheets on and we can compare the tensile strength and compresive strength and abrasion resistance and whatever to any other product that wants to go head to head... both products are 100 percent solids and are very easy to use. The broadcast products has excellent wetting characteristics and doesnot need an extra primer step with proper prep. Broadcast directly into the first coat.

I will find some pictures of a floor i did with these exact products about 6 months ago and a floor we did with these products a couple weeks ago. With this exact method. Sometimes my customers ask me if i can drop my price and if i can't get them to pay for the polyaspartic we will over them this epoxy floor system as an alternative...

Click to expand...

I have followed this thread from the start and kept out of it with regard to which products are better. Each have their place for specific applications.

But I have to chim in now. Your reply above takes the cake so far on this thread. Why you would share your cost of materials for your business on a public DIY message board is beyond me. Guess it really shows your lack of business sense and know how. Would you mind posting some contact info for some recent customers you did floors for? You know just some reference in your market area....I'm sure you would not mind sharing this thread with them??

Dude I'm just calling it as I see it and I must say after this posting you look like a complete idiot.....

Please do post some contact info for 5-6 recent install customers you installed garage floors for....if you don't want to post that info here, no problem, PM the info to me....this will be fun.

The only difference in what i pay vs what you pay is a small markup and a little more in packaging and that was taken into consideration in my post... and yes i am pretty blunt with my customers as to how much materials cost why shouldn't i be i dont OVER CHARGE. Should this be a big secret to you guys? Am i a car salesman? If you dont want my input and you would rather take your chances trying to figure this **** out then i can just stop... Theoretically the kit that i talked about with my supplier would be in the price range i have put forth... These are not numbers that have nothing to do with people on here because i have already gotten averbal confirmation on the price range pending a little more packaging research. So im a complete idiot... okay. Someone asked me how to do a quality floor for 1.00 to 1.50 a sq ft... i answer the question and i am an idiot. I would have thought you would be appreciative of this kind of info.

I am, however, going to have to decline your offer to GIVE you my customers info. I really dont think they would appreciate you harrassing them about some thread on the price of material. I also dont see what it would prove... no body can beat my prices on these floors locally and furthermore the quality of the work and material is top notch. Thats why i am one of the busiest contractors doing these in my area.

Edit**** I jsut notice JD you install these floors as well... That gives me a different perspective on why you dont want this info out there. But then why be on a DIY board anyway? If you think decently priced quality DIY kits are going to put you out of business you are mistaken. Just because any idiot can paint... painters still have work. Drywall is pretty simple... Same with all other sorts of simple contracting type work its not that people can't do it they just don't want to. People pay for the quality installation and work not JUST the quality materials... There are people who will do it themselves regardless and there are people who dont want to deal with it. The latter are your customers. Not 90 percent of the guys on here... You may get a few that use guys like us but cmon this is a DIY place.

Hey MLYNCH, your numbers are a bit misleading. FIrst off your spread rates are much less than I'm used to. My base coats spread at 100 sqft per gallon. My polyurea top coats spreads at 100 sq ft per gallon over chips. So theoretically, using cheaper products and rolling it on, you can get the cost down but will definately hamper quality and eventual performance. You may be selling your customers short. If you want to skimp on product and charge much less then thats on you. But don't make it seem that your way is the one and only way to go and no one should pay anymore. I sell and install my systems from $4-$20 sqft. I have 2-3 man crews on a jobsite with $15-$20k worth of prep equipment. There is much more overhead than material costs that you need to consider before you begin to spew out numbers. ****, I've been filling my gas tanks every other day at $100!!! Did you add that to your sqft charge? You must walk to your epoxy distributor to pick up material and walk it to each jobsite. You obviously do your own work, do you use a home depot day laboror? Is he off the books? Because you didnt include that into you bottom line. Is your office in your home? Do you advertise or market your business? If you want to give away your work, then fine. Its a free country. Just dont act like a hero and think you are saving the world by giving away YOUR cost and make people believe that its true for everyone else. BTW, my freind buys from CTDL and his material cost is way more that $1-$1.50 sqft.

As for DIY, I'm against it. If Joe Blow can do what I do, then why would I be in business? You want something done right, with a guarranty, then call a pro. You get what you pay for in the end. You want something cheap that last a long time, there is no such thing in this world. Its an oxymoron!

BACK TO THE TOPIC......As for polyaspartics vs epoxy......if polyaspartics where GOD, then we should be seeing the 1000's of epoxy manufacturers go out of business soon. Everything has a place and a purpose. Every concrete is unique and requires different solutions. NO one system can cover every aspect of every concrete situation.

Citadel is one of the most expensive polyaspartic suppliers, however, if you call them they will tell you at their recomended spread rates that their system costs 1.50 a square foot including chips... Versatile i think is more in the dollar a square range advertised. but then again polyureas and polyaspartics can range from 60 dollars a gallon for **** to 155 plus a gallon for the most expensive stuff... the true value lies in between.

I have the same if not more in prep equipment by the time you factor in the planetary machine, 3 phase generator, dust containment system, trailer, diamond tooling, hand grinders, and i could go on and on. and Yeah gas is crazy expensive right now. Everyone is getting nailed not just us.

Those are very very thick spread rates most manufacturers recomend 200-300 for varying products. Can you provide one example of a manufacturer that recomends 100 sq ft gal spread rate? For example citadel recomends 275 sq ft over chips for their polyaspartic. Versatile recomends 180-220 over chips. Alot of polyaspartics will have issues at 100 sq ft a gallon... Versatile warns that any aplication over 9 mils can result in outgassing. Obviously this depends on the product.

I ship my material right to my business location. Yes we advertise... I dont give away my work we do 90 percent of our work at 4.00 a sq ft. But that doesn't mean you couldn't make decent money on a larger garage @ 3.00 a square foot with an all epoxy system. My floors are roughly 25 mils on average with binder coat, chips, and topcoat anything more than that is really overkill. No skimping on quality. We are actually on the same page here about a lot of what you said... So you istall polyaspartic systems at 4 a sq or therabout? If so why would you find an epoxy system for $3 a square so outlandish?

I would say on average in any contracting profession (this can vary) but an average markup is roughly 100 percent or double the job cost... this rough rule of thumb will hold true for lots of different proffesions. So i am not really ebarrased at stating my cost of doing business(not just material) at $1-$2 a sq ft depending on all the variables... Epoxies and large jobs put my cost closer to a buck... polyaspartics on the smaller garages can potentially put me closer to 2 bucks with gas labor materials an so on...

My way isnt the only way and yes a pro can install a floor that is more consistant and better quality because we do this everyday and have the experience and tools. That doesn't mean a diy guy absolutely can't do a decent job. Have you seen some of the pictures of DIY garages on this site... i would bet that in a lineup you may not be able to tell them from a pro floor. I am impressed at what some of these guys pull off... probably better than my first job.

I didn't say polytaspartic was god i was saying it was a superior top coat and backed up what i said... even i use an epoxy as a binder coat because you simply do not need to waste the money on a polyaspartic for a binder coat. I use epoxies all the time. Couple nice thing about epoxies is they are easier to use and cheaper. They def have their uses.

One thing i bet both of us can agree on is that if you are using epoxy as a top coat it should definetly be UV resistant epoxy that is suitable for a topcoat... Thats really where this thread came from even though it has turned into something i didn't mean for it to.

(2) coat garage floor...... Based on 600 sq ft.


Grinding: 2.0 to 2.5 hr average.

1st coat w/ chips (85-90 degree's): .75 hrs.

(30 min. includes intermission and cleaning of excess chips).

2nd coat at (85-90 degrees): Applied .50 min.

At this rate.... 3 floors can be completed in (1) day with a good crew.



The base coat would have to be (175 sq ft average to apply chips) or $500.00 of base coat and (1) 55 lbs box chips.

Topcoat: 400.00 to 450.00

Overall cost.... $1,000…. 100% markup.


Estimated time for re-top coating for lustrous shine in Florida: (6-7 years). $425.00 to 475.00 service fee.


Great install Mlynch!

Thanks Premier guy we work hard to have reasonably priced high quality installations... Some installers are just too proud to admit we can make decent money and still charge reasonable prices...

My math on product usage and cost would differ only slightly from what you said... most guys would have charges 2400 for that garage or more and made an easay 1000-1400 dollars! Now For Me thats a good days work!

the final word?

Click to expand...

For me it was Wolverine epoxy. I had contractor shotblast concrete, apply bondtite primer, colorcoat and flakes. I put on topcoat of bondtite. I wanted a smooth finish with none of the chips protruding.

I ordered more product than the manufacturer recommended because my contractor felt based on what I was trying to achieve I would better off doing so.

The only mistake I made was my failure to scrape the flakes really well so none would be protruding. But even that mistake can be easily fixed. I'll sand the topcoat lightly with 60 grit and apply another coat of Bondtite.

People who have seen my floor even with some of the chips protruding have said they have never seen an epoxy floor as nice as mine.

Based on my research Wolverine Coatings offer both excellent products and technical advice. I came to the conclusion when selecting epoxies you get what you pay for.

Im sorry but broadcasting chips into the first coat... why would you ever do that?

Andy S said:

Im sorry but broadcasting chips into the first coat... why would you ever do that?

Click to expand...

Why not? If it is applied at a proper dft and if it has the proper wetting abilities then why waste time w/ two steps?

Well, i guess people are talking epoxies. I have not done a chip floor with an epoxy in over two years. Nothing but polyaspartics.... and i have tried to broadcast into the prime, and it did not work. But ya, i guess if the product will bond to the concrete, and hold the chips without showing through or bleeding.... than why not. Only time i use epoxy is when i need a self leveling product, or doing a huge huge area.

nevermind, old thread IG

I believe the OP original disclaimer was the best bet. It depends on the job. You also have to consider that there is a huge difference between brands. Everything in life is a tradeoff. At times, we go as far as to custom formulate the coating to the specific need. IE if you make car batteries and your number once concern is battery acid, there is a coating for that.

For the rest of us, get as much information about the coatings you are looking at and decide which properties are the most important to you. For example if you check out the first two columns on this chart it compares our Polyurea and Epoxy