PermaBilt - Electrical Plan

bmxdad · Aug 25, 2014

Had a good discussion with my electrical consultant (Brother in-law electrician ). My sub-panel is going to be maybe thirty feet from my main 200amp service.

I have a deck off the side of the house which is about 8' from the garage.

My original plan was to bury, in 2" conduit, 2-2-2-4 MHF, after coming in from the back of the panel, and under the house. My panel is on the outside, but all wiring is routed behind the panel and into the crawl space. I would then trench under the front entrance and parallel the deck and to the building. About 30-40' of trenching. 90amp double pole in the main service.

He looked for awhile, walked around a lot and said "Yep, that would work ... but, why don't you do this?".

New plan is to drop down from the bottom of the service box, into 1 1/2" conduit and hang from deck joist with hangers. At the end of the deck, about two feet from the end, there would be a j-box(?). This would drop down into a trench with 24" sweep, six feet of conduit and sweep back up, inside the building and through the concrete pad, and finish at the bottom of the sub-panel.

Wire would be three #1 and a #4 ground ... all aluminum. There would be a 100 amp double pole breaker on both panel and sub-panel.

This cuts the trenching down to a fifth of the original, cheaper and less wire ... and so much easier. He also mentioned using a Cutler-Hammer sub-panel. I'm going to assume they are good

Edit: Cutler-Hammer are EXPENSIVE!!

sands35 · Aug 25, 2014

Running conduit like that is OK. Is your deck attached to your house? If not, then think about what will happen if the deck moves a bit from wind or people. Also think about what will happen if you re-deck the deck.

I'd recommend that you use the same make panel as is already in your house. Not really necessary though, but it makes it simpler.

Charles (in GA) · Aug 25, 2014

sands35 said:
I'd recommend that you use the same make panel as is already in your house. Not really necessary though, but it makes it simpler.

This is a very good idea unless you have some weird panel such as a Zinco. In the middle of a hot night when the HVAC compressor/outdoor unit breaker gives up the ghost and, you just go out and steal the welder or compressor breaker from your sub panel and you are good to go till you can get to the big box store.

Charles

wyliesdiesels · Aug 25, 2014

sands35 said:
Running conduit like that is OK. Is your deck attached to your house? If not, then think about what will happen if the deck moves a bit from wind or people. Also think about what will happen if you re-deck the deck.

I'd recommend that you use the same make panel as is already in your house. Not really necessary though, but it makes it simpler.

The perfect reason to use liquid tight conduit for the section that goes in between the house and deck!

bmxdad · Aug 25, 2014

Isn't schedule 40 considered sealed and water tight conduit?
As for the deck ... I just covered it. Besides, its only 18-24" high and rock solid.

wyliesdiesels · Aug 25, 2014

bmxdad said:
Isn't schedule 40 considered sealed and water tight conduit?
As for the deck ... I just covered it. Besides, its only 18-24" high and rock solid.

I was suggesting the LT because someone brought up a point about the deck moving and what would happen to the conduit and wire when it flexed. LT conduit would be the solution!

bmxdad · Aug 25, 2014

So is LT something different from the gray Schedule 40?

Aceman · Aug 25, 2014

bmxdad said:
So is LT something different from the gray Schedule 40?

http://www.carlonsales.com/carflexliquidtightnmconduit.php

bmxdad · Aug 25, 2014

Got it ... thanks guys.

wyliesdiesels · Aug 26, 2014

bmxdad said:
So is LT something different from the gray Schedule 40?

Yes its flexible!!

sands35 · Aug 26, 2014

They are less than $10 at big box. A "droopy" loop between the house and the deck is all you need. Just something with a little flex in it. The PVC will also expand and contract with the weather, so a little flex is a good thing.

95% chance nothing will happen if you use straight PVC all the way through, but if something does go wrong, you are going to re-do most of it. So put in the $10 now and you'll save yourself the potential of a HUGE headache later.

pattenp · Aug 26, 2014

What's the junction box for at the end of the deck? Are you splicing wire for some reason?

Edit: What wire type are you using? THHN/THWN-2, RHH/RHW-2, XHHW/XHHW-2? The type can also make a difference on the conduit size needed.

Highbeam · Aug 26, 2014

bmxdad said:
Isn't schedule 40 considered sealed and water tight conduit?

Funny but that conduit will get water in it, especially where it goes underground. It's considered a wet location.

Gotta say I love my Siemens load center in the house and shop. I bought the good ones with all copper buss bars and the breakers are cheap and available. The CH breakers are those weird ones with tan on them right?

I am jealous of your 100 amp service. I only have 60 at my shop right now and may have to upgrade to 100 when I start putting in the boiler and compressor.

bmxdad · Aug 26, 2014

pattenp said:
What's the junction box for at the end of the deck? Are you splicing wire for some reason?

Edit: What wire type are you using? THHN/THWN-2, RHH/RHW-2, XHHW/XHHW-2? The type can also make a difference on the conduit size needed.

Junction box is a 90, no splicing. The ground is XHHW, the #1 is USE.

I know he mentioned the XHHW for the ground, I think he said USE for the three #1 wires. It'll be in conduit from panel to panel.

I just went off what HD had for the prices. He'll be getting it from Platt Electric, which is just down the road from me.

pattenp · Aug 26, 2014

USE is not allowed by NEC to enter a structure. It has to be terminated outside the structure.

bmxdad · Aug 26, 2014

Figures ... He'll know what to get. I just used the designation to get a price. Curious ... what should be used, for panel to panel?

Norcal · Aug 26, 2014

Highbeam said:
Funny but that conduit will get water in it, especially where it goes underground. It's considered a wet location.

Gotta say I love my Siemens load center in the house and shop. I bought the good ones with all copper buss bars and the breakers are cheap and available. The CH breakers are those weird ones with tan on them right?

I am jealous of your 100 amp service. I only have 60 at my shop right now and may have to upgrade to 100 when I start putting in the boiler and compressor.

C-H (Eaton) make 2 lines of loadcenters, CH "Classic" & BR, the CH "tan handle" is the last decent loadcenter left on the market, copper bus, steel interior, & the patent on SQ D's Visi-Trip feature seems to have expired so the CH frame breakers have that feature avail. I have despised the Bryant BR line for many years, & that is what the C-H BR line is, so Siemens is my 2nd choice, 3rd would be SQ D QO.

pattenp · Aug 26, 2014

Any of these for panel to panel - THHN/THWN-2, RHH/RHW-2, XHHW/XHHW-2. Don't use wire that has only a USE rating. For panel to panel it can be a combination RHH/RHW-2/USE-2. Don't use URD (Underground Residential Distribution) it's a USE only wire.

bmxdad said:
Figures ... He'll know what to get. I just used the designation to get a price. Curious ... what should be used, for panel to panel?

bmxdad · Aug 26, 2014

Thanks, I'll see if any box store has it to get a rough price.

For heating it looks like an overhead 240v unit is going to be the best bet ... with a propane heater coming in second. Thing about the propane is I could convert it to NG later on, since that's what we have for heat and hot water. Just to much right now.

Decisions ....

Edit: Better and better ... this is even cheaper then the USE wire I priced

1 AWG XHHW-2 Stranded Aluminum Black

Highbeam · Aug 27, 2014

Since you are heating air and since you have ng available, a hanging unit heater is a very economical and effective way to go. Lp to start and switch to ng later shouldn't be a problem.

bmxdad · Aug 27, 2014

Thinking about the following circuits:

Four 240v circuits
- Overhead Heater - 40 amp
- Air Compressor - 30 amp
- Plug for welder - 30 amp
- Hot water heater - 20 amp
Two lighting
- One for two light fixtures
- One for four light fixtures
Three wall plug - one for each wall
One Door opener

Am I over thinking things? Always hate having to kill half the house to replace a single switch or outlet, so my thought is to break it out into as many circuits as need to isolate end points.

wyliesdiesels · Aug 27, 2014

How many HP is the compressor?

bmxdad · Aug 27, 2014

About 3.1hp ... It'll be a Sears Pro 60 gal. I want to hard wire it too.

wyliesdiesels · Aug 27, 2014

Ok the compressor can be either cord and plug or hardwired...

Charles (in GA) · Aug 27, 2014

MHF which is multi marked and usable both inside and outside structures, buried in conduit or direct burial, and in conduit in a building.

This is some 2-2-2-4 that I have. I had to lighten it to make the markings show in the pic, its one green, two blacks and one white stripe.

bmxdad · Aug 31, 2014

But your limited to 90 amps, from what I've read. Not a huge difference, but the wire I'm getting is cheaper and I can get the full 100 amps.

bmxdad · Sep 2, 2014

Found a used King Electric Heater ... $25!! No hanger, but easy to fab one up. Need to test it still, but it looked ok and price was right.

View media item 42974
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My electrician suggested I add some 3/4" conduit under the concrete from the panel to each wall. Bury it in a trench so there is no concrete touching it, maybe 6" or so deep.

Sounds like a good idea, and will really simplify getting power to each wall.

wyliesdiesels · Sep 4, 2014

bmxdad said:
But your limited to 90 amps, from what I've read. Not a huge difference, but the wire I'm getting is cheaper and I can get the full 100 amps.

Yes, that is true. #2 AL is limited to 90a unless it supplies the entire load of a residence....

bmxdad · Sep 6, 2014

Wire change ... #2 copper, just need to get the ground now. Can Aluminum ground be mixed with Copper service wire?

bmxdad · Sep 19, 2014

Are there certain things that need to be inspected before other work can be continued?

... or can you show the inspector everything at once? Also, what are the minimum required circuits? Is there an NEC Number?

I was thinking of a switch controlled light by the sub-panel and a receptacle. What about a light above the man door ... required?

Highbeam · Sep 19, 2014

bmxdad said:
Are there certain things that need to be inspected before other work can be continued?

... or can you show the inspector everything at once? Also, what are the minimum required circuits? Is there an NEC Number?

I was thinking of a switch controlled light by the sub-panel and a receptacle. What about a light above the man door ... required?

My inspector wanted to see the conduit in the trench before I backfilled. I didn't wait and backfilled but took pictures.

He wanted to see both ground rods and the connection before I buried them too.

The light fixtures were installed and working. The outlets were not installed but the boxes were wired with each pigtail sticking out ready to set the outlet.

I was failed because a powered outbuilding has to have an outside light above the man door. Weird but true. My first failed inspection.

No # of circuits. He did grab onto my perfectly laid wires in the panel and jerk on them to be sure they were in the CBs tight.

justsam · Sep 19, 2014

Just go with copper for all of it. You don't want to deal with the oxidation and corrosion issues around aluminum. Incremental cost increase for this short of run is not that great.

bmxdad · Sep 19, 2014

Highbeam said:
My inspector wanted to see the conduit in the trench before I backfilled. I didn't wait and backfilled but took pictures.

He wanted to see both ground rods and the connection before I buried them too.

The light fixtures were installed and working. The outlets were not installed but the boxes were wired with each pigtail sticking out ready to set the outlet.

I was failed because a powered outbuilding has to have an outside light above the man door. Weird but true. My first failed inspection.

No # of circuits. He did grab onto my perfectly laid wires in the panel and jerk on them to be sure they were in the CBs tight.

Highbeam... just what I need to know, Thanks. Outside light is a weird one, and to do it I need a finished shell ... so my excuse for waiting.

Curious, was the inspector Bill Anderson?

justsam said:
Just go with copper for all of it. You don't want to deal with the oxidation and corrosion issues around aluminum. Incremental cost increase for this short of run is not that great.

Yea ... makes sense, and price diff isn't much.

bmxdad · Sep 21, 2014

NEC Rules to follow.( minimum req's )
210-70-2-A/B

At least one switched controlled light and a light outside an entry/exit door.

210-70-A-2-Exception

If you have a dusk to dawn light that is always on automatic such as a photo cell, then that dusk to dawn light may serve as that garage stoop light if that dusk to dawn light is left in automatic control and if that dusk to dawn light also lights that stoop area outside the garage service door.

Outlets
210-52-G-1

A minimum of one GFCI protected receptacle somewhere inside the attached garage is also required.

bmxdad · Sep 28, 2014

Got a Cutler Hammer C22B100C panel, which included a 100amp breaker. Also adding 2x 15amp breakers for below. Going for the minimum on circuits:

Switched interior light, basic screw in receptacle: 210-70-2-A/B
Dawn to Dusk light: 210-70-A-2-Exception
GFI plug: 210-52-G-1

Switch and plug will be in the same metal box, with switch covering the single interior light.

I think that covers the minimum requirements.

bmxdad · Oct 1, 2014

Both grounding rods in ... all 8', straight down.

View media item 44027

wyliesdiesels · Oct 2, 2014

What kind of rod is that? Looks like steel....

bmxdad · Oct 2, 2014

Zinc coated ... 8' long. Is that a problem?
I have two placed about 7' apart.

bmxdad · Oct 4, 2014

Completed Panel
View media item 43838
Next up are the lights ... looks like I'll be getting 4x T5HO 4 tube fixtures. Thinking about mounting them on the ceiling purlings so they will follow the roof pitch, and be angled in. They'll be about +10' high, so hopefully not to overwhelming.

These have the ability to be wired for switching between 2 and 4 tubes. Anyone else wire theirs up this way?

wyliesdiesels · Oct 4, 2014

Looks good. However, One thing I would change is flip the main to the other side of the panel so its not covering up the ground bar. It will be cleaner that way.

I cant tell- does that main breaker have a retainer kit/bolt on it??

PermaBilt - Electrical Plan

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