Above 1200 Sq/FT Barn Workshop build
- Thread starter ururk
- Start date
Wokspaces above 1200 squarefeet.
The 2" insulation cost me $29.98 - it was on sale at Menards (grand opening). Let's just say I cried a lot when purchasing the stuff. I was going to get used insulation for $15/sheet, but the deal fell through. So, at this moment I'm only insulating the concrete. Since I won't be occupying the space this winter, I'm going to try and find a source for used for the rest of it.
Done:
13) Place 4" of foam under slab
14) Place vapor barrier
15) Set up manifold
16) staple down pex
I took the day off and set the foam - I'm glad I placed two layers. One, it cost me a fraction of the entire job for the second layer, and two, there was no way I was going to get all the seams tight. It sprinkled on and off, so as I put the second layer down I mopped the foam. Then the vapor barrier. Later in the evening I placed the pex with some help from family and a friend (and I'm getting help from family for the above tasks, if they are available). I went with a staple-down system - my contractor lent me his pex gun, and some of his staples. I ended up having to bust into the pack I bought from Menards.
Pictures:
Waiting for the second truck of concrete:
Encouraging the concrete around the corner:
Reinforcement placed - you'll note that the opening changes sides in later pictures - details details details:
(I'm going to try and post the rest of the pictures this weekend)
Done:
13) Place 4" of foam under slab
14) Place vapor barrier
15) Set up manifold
16) staple down pex
I took the day off and set the foam - I'm glad I placed two layers. One, it cost me a fraction of the entire job for the second layer, and two, there was no way I was going to get all the seams tight. It sprinkled on and off, so as I put the second layer down I mopped the foam. Then the vapor barrier. Later in the evening I placed the pex with some help from family and a friend (and I'm getting help from family for the above tasks, if they are available). I went with a staple-down system - my contractor lent me his pex gun, and some of his staples. I ended up having to bust into the pack I bought from Menards.
Pictures:
Waiting for the second truck of concrete:
Encouraging the concrete around the corner:
Reinforcement placed - you'll note that the opening changes sides in later pictures - details details details:
(I'm going to try and post the rest of the pictures this weekend)
About the foundations. I went with a trench foundation. If I ever build again, which after this experience I don't think I will 
, I would go with a traditional spread footing. To get these to work they had to be 2" on either side of the stem wall. To support the posts on the barn either I had to make 10" and 12" walls, or have concrete posts 'cast' into the poured wall. To keep things simple, easy to clean, and trim out I went with continuously wide stem walls. However, all in all this required a massive amount of concrete, especially since the finished poured wall is 40". A spread footing would have reduced the footing amount, and would have been neater since the footing thickness would have been dictated by formwork, and not whether the clay held its shape (it did - except in several areas).
, I would go with a traditional spread footing. To get these to work they had to be 2" on either side of the stem wall. To support the posts on the barn either I had to make 10" and 12" walls, or have concrete posts 'cast' into the poured wall. To keep things simple, easy to clean, and trim out I went with continuously wide stem walls. However, all in all this required a massive amount of concrete, especially since the finished poured wall is 40". A spread footing would have reduced the footing amount, and would have been neater since the footing thickness would have been dictated by formwork, and not whether the clay held its shape (it did - except in several areas).Slab was poured yesterday, control cuts will be made on Monday. This weekend I'm going to finish outside perimeter foam and put the drain tile in. Contractor will backfill Monday, and the frame arrives Tuesday!
Just two shots. I painted some waterproofing to avoid 'rising damp'. I used a latex product recommended on a fine homebuilding related site. This might have been overkill. They also make special ($$$$$) membranes that you place in the wet concrete, and I've seen pictures of a rubber strip that goes in a keyway.
Note no keyway - reinforcement rod 16" on center was enough per my contractor. I'm not too sure how I feel about this - reading online it sounds like the keyway can provide two advantages:
1) permanent mechanical fixation at cold joint
2) help reduce moisture wicking
If the rebar was to rust through with no keyway it could fail. I also read that keyways provide little strength and if the rebar were to fail (or wasn't present) and the situation was dire enough, the concrete would shear. It will be surrounded by soil on all sides.
Just two shots. I painted some waterproofing to avoid 'rising damp'. I used a latex product recommended on a fine homebuilding related site. This might have been overkill. They also make special ($$$$$) membranes that you place in the wet concrete, and I've seen pictures of a rubber strip that goes in a keyway.
Note no keyway - reinforcement rod 16" on center was enough per my contractor. I'm not too sure how I feel about this - reading online it sounds like the keyway can provide two advantages:
1) permanent mechanical fixation at cold joint
2) help reduce moisture wicking
If the rebar was to rust through with no keyway it could fail. I also read that keyways provide little strength and if the rebar were to fail (or wasn't present) and the situation was dire enough, the concrete would shear. It will be surrounded by soil on all sides.
Didn't get too much done today. Removed the bulkheads at the service door and garage door openings, laid some more drain tile - then it began to snow. Tomorrow I have to do a bit of stuff - caulk, waterproof the slab edge where it drops down, and run the foam/drain tile. Too cold to do the caulking/waterproofing. It has to happen tomorrow as backfilling must be done on Monday.
I've attached some images of the formwork for the walls. We decided to go with 40" walls. I almost did 36" on one side, and 40" on the other but it would have complicated things and the savings on concrete/fill dirt wasn't worth the potential hassle when raising the frame.
He could only get 48" forms, so had to pour a little lower. This turned out OK - there are some areas of the top of the wall that are not as straight as my mind likes them to be... but I'll survive, and so will the concrete.
He was going to use a plywood system that used a single waler??? and clips, but was having trouble getting the rods in time so ended up renting a formed wall system. I love how the concrete turned out with this system, but wish the top was a bit more even (since he had to pour to 40" instead of 49 1/2".
I've attached some images of the formwork for the walls. We decided to go with 40" walls. I almost did 36" on one side, and 40" on the other but it would have complicated things and the savings on concrete/fill dirt wasn't worth the potential hassle when raising the frame.
He could only get 48" forms, so had to pour a little lower. This turned out OK - there are some areas of the top of the wall that are not as straight as my mind likes them to be... but I'll survive, and so will the concrete.
He was going to use a plywood system that used a single waler??? and clips, but was having trouble getting the rods in time so ended up renting a formed wall system. I love how the concrete turned out with this system, but wish the top was a bit more even (since he had to pour to 40" instead of 49 1/2".
Finished everything I needed to get done - drain tile is in, covered with dirt for the backfill operation.
Here are some pictures from the day of the wall pour. Because access to the rear of the foundation is not possible, and getting trucks in is problematic, I asked my contractor to use a line pump. An overhead pump couldn't reach in, as there are many obstructions in the way. If I were to do this again, I'd skip the line pump. Why? Several reasons:
1) They only sent one guy to run 180' of hose, and he moved very slowly
2) They promised a 2/2.5" hose, and sent a larger one (the larger the tube, the harder/heavier to control). This might have been out of their control
3) The operator mentioned they should have run grout through the line first, but the guy who specs the jobs tends to leave it out to 'save the contractor some money'. Well, they had to prime the pump every two tubes with concrete, each time wasting a little bit of concrete
4) The area around the tubes was a complete mess
5) He wasn't able to clean the concrete out with a ball and water, so more mess
6) The line kept jamming
I'm not entirely sure what I was thinking so on the slab pour we had the truck back, and the guys had to push the concrete towards the back a little.
Here are some pictures from the day of the wall pour. Because access to the rear of the foundation is not possible, and getting trucks in is problematic, I asked my contractor to use a line pump. An overhead pump couldn't reach in, as there are many obstructions in the way. If I were to do this again, I'd skip the line pump. Why? Several reasons:
1) They only sent one guy to run 180' of hose, and he moved very slowly
2) They promised a 2/2.5" hose, and sent a larger one (the larger the tube, the harder/heavier to control). This might have been out of their control
3) The operator mentioned they should have run grout through the line first, but the guy who specs the jobs tends to leave it out to 'save the contractor some money'. Well, they had to prime the pump every two tubes with concrete, each time wasting a little bit of concrete
4) The area around the tubes was a complete mess
5) He wasn't able to clean the concrete out with a ball and water, so more mess
6) The line kept jamming
I'm not entirely sure what I was thinking
so on the slab pour we had the truck back, and the guys had to push the concrete towards the back a little.
They came by today and cut the expansion joints in the floor, and finished the grading with what soil was left. I'll probably have to get 11 yards.
Now pictures - these are from when they removed the forms. I've included some shots of the floor drain 'sleeve' I put through one wall, and the infamous conduit I had to bust out on the other side. In six months time, I'll have to dig some of the backfill up and run my electrical.
Now, keep in mind the trench footings were shorter than our frost line, and part of this 40" wall must be buried in order to protect the bottom of the footing. Ultimately, it will get 24" of backfill on two sides, 32" on the other, and tapered on the back.
Now pictures - these are from when they removed the forms. I've included some shots of the floor drain 'sleeve' I put through one wall, and the infamous conduit I had to bust out on the other side. In six months time, I'll have to dig some of the backfill up and run my electrical.
Now, keep in mind the trench footings were shorter than our frost line, and part of this 40" wall must be buried in order to protect the bottom of the footing. Ultimately, it will get 24" of backfill on two sides, 32" on the other, and tapered on the back.
morehead
Active member
Looking good, worth driving to Port Huron for that difference in price!!��When it is only an hour away!
Heck yeah. However, hopefully you have a large trailer than I. My trailer is 5x8, and can only carry 20 sheets at a time. Menards hadn't gotten their trucking insurance in order, and I needed the foam ASAP, so had to pick it up myself. They opened the very day I needed the foam, so I was very lucky in terms of timing. Each round trip was 1 hour.
And about Menards... I suppose depending on what you need their prices are really good. I don't know if their quality is less than Lowes or Home Depot - price-wise they trend lower than the other two stores.
I don't quite get their pricing. Here's an example. I wanted a small - but nice - drain - not one of those plastic deals. They sell a Sioux Chief adjustable for $42 - $38 on sale - with a stainless grate. But it is HUGE - 6.25" in diameter. I ended up getting it even though I wanted the smaller one, because the smaller one was $60+ and difficult to find online. How can more be less? Is it because HD also carries that size? Anyhow, I now have a honking big drain, bigger than I need, but capable of handling the severest flood waters. I don't even intend to get water in the shop.
I had to quickly trim out the foam - since I was running insulation on the inside, I had to first cover the foundation and then the walls. I ran the foam through a table saw to give it a 45 degree bevel, but left 1/2" flat. This thins out the concrete without making a super thin section of concrete at the top (doing a full 45 degree bevel). I'll be covering the exposed foam up, so that won't be a major issue. After sand had been brought in and compacted, I ran my drainage pipe.
I ran it at the correct slope for 3" pipe.
I ran it at the correct slope for 3" pipe.
Part of the barn project it to get stuff in order. Meaning, clean out the garage of my tools, the shed of my wood, and the basement and upstairs of my tools. Remove the two gardens, old climber (where barn is going). And as such, I was going to use the front garden as a sort of level base to store the siding and girts (green wood) while it dries. My sawyer showed up 5 days early, which meant I had to unload 5 days earlier. And build the wood storage 3 days earlier. And clean up the garden a day earlier.
I rearranged the cinder blocks (ugh) and made a flat base out of some scrap 4x4's. The sawyer had (wisely) brought some scrap pine stock that I used to spread out the pressure on the ground.
It took Saturday-Tuesday along with everything else (mentioned in a previous post) I had to get done to move this wood. The trailer was 25' long, and the longest pieces were 1" x 8' x 14' (actually a little larger, cut so that when they shrink they are closer to finished size).
In the spring I'll be taking out the blocks and leveling the ground, transplanting what trees I can. This was only 1/2 the load.
I rearranged the cinder blocks (ugh) and made a flat base out of some scrap 4x4's. The sawyer had (wisely) brought some scrap pine stock that I used to spread out the pressure on the ground.
It took Saturday-Tuesday along with everything else (mentioned in a previous post) I had to get done to move this wood. The trailer was 25' long, and the longest pieces were 1" x 8' x 14' (actually a little larger, cut so that when they shrink they are closer to finished size).
In the spring I'll be taking out the blocks and leveling the ground, transplanting what trees I can. This was only 1/2 the load.
Because I had some concerns about water pressure building up against the wall, I did two things - waterproofed and ran a french drain. I used a latex waterproofer.
Later that day the gravel truck showed up and shot pea stone out:
In the afternoon my contractor ran the compactor over it.
And the stack of wood is shrinking at this point:
And growing in another:
My back hurts just looking at it.
Later that day the gravel truck showed up and shot pea stone out:
In the afternoon my contractor ran the compactor over it.
And the stack of wood is shrinking at this point:
And growing in another:
My back hurts just looking at it.
My contractor bulkheaded the openings and leveled the pea stone. Later that day (night) I laid down a layer of 6 mil poly and started the first layer of foam. Little did I know I'd be working the next day late into the night - had I known I'd have tried to get more done.
I took the entire day (Thursday 10/15) off to get the foam in for the pex and pour. It sprinkled throughout the day, so I had to mop the foam every sheet. I'm sure a little moisture is stuck in there, but I'm sure it will find its way out.
I never want to see another sheet of foam in my life.
I never want to see another sheet of foam in my life.
Slab pour day (10/16). There was a very very slight chance of rain - and to get the frame up we had to pour that day. After it was smoothed clouds kept dissipating, so we ended up dodging a bullet. Visqueen was on hand just in case.
OK, this looks hackish. But pressure held:
OK, this looks hackish. But pressure held:
Last edited:
1/2 Cup
Member Emeritus
Looking great
Many thanks for the update.
Many thanks for the update.
Barn gets raised this week, so I will try very hard to keep pictures up to date. I was so busy over the last few weeks that when I 'retired' for the night I just didn't want to do anything, but I still had to research some things so I prioritized that over posting. This should go smoother, I think.
Oh, also I'm hosting these on Flickr in this album:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/68046081@N00/albums/72157659788813152
My thinking is that Flickr has been pretty steady for photo hosting, so this should be a safe place to put them.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/68046081@N00/albums/72157659788813152
My thinking is that Flickr has been pretty steady for photo hosting, so this should be a safe place to put them.
Carl_WI
Well-known member
I just subscribed to this thread. I like the timber framing and look forward to allot of pictures. Does the Timber Framer have a web site?
Beachguy
Member
Wow looking good. Sometimes I think I should just do this instead of trying to rebuild the one one!!
Mike of http://www.mktimberworks.com cut my frame. It is a thing of beauty.
I didn't mention it, but my contractor really put me in a bad spot. I asked him several times to quote me for helping with the raising, and he never gave me a quote for the people. He kept promising help, but I only got one person for two days of this build, and an extra person for 1/2 of the last day. I really needed two each day (so, three people in total helping). I ended up getting some help from a friend and my family. He did good work on the foundation - the concrete walls were only 1/8" out of square. But totally let me down on this aspect.
Day two (Wednesday, 10/21). More done!
I didn't mention it, but my contractor really put me in a bad spot. I asked him several times to quote me for helping with the raising, and he never gave me a quote for the people. He kept promising help, but I only got one person for two days of this build, and an extra person for 1/2 of the last day. I really needed two each day (so, three people in total helping). I ended up getting some help from a friend and my family. He did good work on the foundation - the concrete walls were only 1/8" out of square. But totally let me down on this aspect.
Day two (Wednesday, 10/21). More done!
1/2 Cup
Member Emeritus
Looking better every day.
matt_i
Well-known member
Wow, that's a work of art!
smschriefer
Well-known member
I love timber-frame buildings. How big are the timbers you are using? They look huge. One thing is certain - that building will be there for well over 100 years. I really like this building and since you brought up an older VW, well, you know we want to see it.
I love timber-frame buildings. How big are the timbers you are using? They look huge. One thing is certain - that building will be there for well over 100 years. I really like this building and since you brought up an older VW, well, you know we want to see it.
So, the posts are 7.5x9.5, and inner posts and shed posts are 7.5x7.5. The main space has a 19' clear-span, so the beams in the inner bents are 7.5x15.5". A bit oversized from what calculations I ran, but since I have plenty of headroom (the extra 8" of the 16" stem wall helped) I'll have no problems swinging a board around. It will be 2 extra stair treads than originally planned, but I think I can live with that.
I'm a bit OCD and the measurements all worked out. The posts fit exactly where they were supposed to. The concrete foundation was 1/2" longer than it should have been - while my contractor got the walls very even and square, the forming system added 1/2" to the length. Since this is a pre-cut timber frame, no adjustments to any dimensions could be made on site. I'm OK with this - my metal brackets at the back sit flush with the inner wall. We could have split the difference, but those stupid concrete columns were the defining starting point. They were my design, so I have to accept them, but I really should have thought them through a little more.
smschriefer
Well-known member
I was close in my thoughts on the post, I guessed 8x8. I was way off on the beams as I was thinking they looked like 8x12. From your earlier posts, I gather you are a wood worker and that definitely makes you want the beauty of the timbers. Are you running your flooring for the second floor so that it is visible from the main floor, or will you close the area in to run electrical and mechanicals?
The smaller posts started out life as 8x8 (well, a white pine tree
) but were planed down, so you were more or less on the mark there.The upper flooring will be visible - I'll be running metal conduit and electric through that. I was going to do the same as my roof (2x6 T&G) BUT after talking with my timber framer I might do something slightly different to limit dust movement (same thickness but run the flooring in two directions.
I do some wood working, but not enough. I want to get:
- small wood lathe
- small metal lathe
- small milling machine
- larger table saw (replace portable unit)
- floor drill press (replace table mounted press)
It isn't a huge space, so I have to work with what I could build. I have some other equipment, so for now I have a fairly well outfitted space, and time to accrue the above in several years time. I may skip the larger table saw and just make a table to fit my unit into.
morehead
Active member
Looks awesome, what are you using- wood boiler or gas (propane or natural)
gnarlyleech
Well-known member
Very nice dude. I saw a bunch of forklifts like you are using on Craigslist and some are around $8000. I would love to pull the trigger on that and get one.
Thanks! Not sure yet - I ran the pex to have it in for the (near) future. Very likely a gas - propane or natural. There are some complications with natural gas that makes propane a bit more attractive. I will be getting a (free) Lochinvar propane water heater, which I believe I could use.
Pictures soon - but thought I'd post a funny update. Got a complaint about the telehandler backing up noise by one of my neighbors They wondered if I could disconnect it. Since we are done with it, I told him not to worry. But then he wanted to know how the roofing would be installed without it. Sigh. Since I'm using 2x6 decking, pieces are no bigger than 7' long, and they are kiln dried, I can just move the wood up and nail.
They wondered if I could disconnect it. Since we are done with it, I told him not to worry. But then he wanted to know how the roofing would be installed without it. Sigh. Since I'm using 2x6 decking, pieces are no bigger than 7' long, and they are kiln dried, I can just move the wood up and nail.