Drop in Feit LED vs Sylvania T8

Showkey · Sep 5, 2015

Closet Pantry and mud room about 8'x8' white walls, white ceiling. One two tube T8 enclosed fixture with plastic lens. Light is turned off and on at least 30 times per day

Fixture was operating fine but the new bulbs had some flicker and a little slow to start. Fixture is likely 15 years old
Replaced the bulbs with Feit drop in no rewire LED bulbs from Costco price $37.

This was done as experiment....not sure if it makes "cents" or has technical merit.
Photos below show the light output change. Reading were taken with out the plastic lens in place meter was not moved.

FEIT must have got the "message" on the claim issues.....must be in 4 places on the box and bulbs...... energy cost, energy savings, bulb life and light output varies with the fixture.

Up side........... more light, instant on, no flicker, drop in no rewire

Down side.....cost, unknown if drop in concept.. is good or bad (thinking some one will comment)

, bulb life remains an unknown.

Not that Consumer Reports is the "expert" in lighting but they rated FEIT standard LED bulbs a best buy. :dunno:

T8 LUX

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LED LUX

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cybrdyke · Sep 5, 2015

That's the new technology. It's catching on much faster than the ballast bypass version ever did. Although the Feit product isn't the best at 100 lumens per watt, it's still good. At 30 on/offs per day, the fluorescent is being stressed. The LED wont get bothered by that. Other brands of this type of product are sold at local electrical supply houses and big box stores for less than $20 each. Shop around.
CD

Platonic Solid · Sep 5, 2015

I'll never be a fan of fluorescent ballast compatible LED retrofit tubes. I realize people buy them to avoid the inconvenience of a little work, but that's only temporary until the fluorescent ballast dies. Then you might as well have purchased direct wire ballast bypass tubes.

Of all the LED retrofits I've tested over the past year, the only ones that had issues (flicker) were the fluorescent ballast compatible types. Both Cree and Sylvania have discontinued their fluorescent ballast compatible LED retrofit tubes.

To-date, no issues with direct wire ballast bypass LED tubes.

cybrdyke · Sep 5, 2015

Platonic Solid said:
I'll never be a fan of fluorescent ballast compatible LED retrofit tubes. I realize people buy them to avoid the inconvenience of a little work, but that's only temporary until the fluorescent ballast dies. Then you might as well have purchased direct wire ballast bypass tubes.

Of all the LED retrofits I've tested over the past year, the only ones that had issues (flicker) were the fluorescent ballast compatible types. Both Cree and Sylvania have discontinued their fluorescent ballast compatible LED retrofit tubes.

To-date, no issues with direct wire ballast bypass LED tubes.

To say you'll never be a fan is kinda close-minded. Never is a loooooong time.
There's plenty of cons to bypass tubes as well.

People dont buy them because they're lazy, they buy them because their ballasts work perfectly fine and there's no reason to bypass a working ballast. When it dies (which could be ages from now) it's no more work to change a ballast than it is to bypass it.
As to flicker, that's a manufacturer's design flaw. There are those that dont flicker.
And Sylvania has re-launched their ballast ready tubes. Cree is in re-design. GE, TCP and others top brands all have decided to not offer bypass tubes due to safety (read legal) concerns and also due to sales concerns.
CD

Platonic Solid · Sep 6, 2015

“Never” in this case, is a relatively short time. LED retrofit lamps of both types are a temporary band-aid solution for a short lived market while the industry transitions to all LED. Over the next few years, most lighting manufacturers will stop making fluorescent fixtures. GE is slated to stop at the end of this year. Fluorescent ballasts and lamp holders will slowly go the way of the tape deck and floppy disks.

From my experience testing LED retrofits, ballast compatible LED lamps are problematic. Obviously Cree and Sylvania have found the technology has issues. This likely stems from there being too many ballast varieties that these lamps need to be compatible with and/or the end user isn’t confirming ballast and lamp holder compatibility prior to installation as required by the instructions.

The temporary installation convenience comes at a price. Ballast compatible LED lamps are typically more expensive than bypass lamps. Even if they were the same price it would still be the more expensive option since you will eventually have to replace the $10 (or more) ballast at least once in the fixtures life time. Some instructions recommend installing a new ballast from day 1.

Now where did I put that Sony Walkman . . .

softailgarage · Sep 6, 2015

Whatever. Hey, I used the same bulbs from Costco and I'm as happy as a pig in ****. Ballast, no ballast, who gives a rats ***? I pulled out the T8's, slapped in the LED and presto, brighter light, no flicker, no hum, just light ...bright light. Jury is also still out on cost, I know one thing for sure, my bill didn't go up....and I have light...bright light.

dfiler2 · Sep 6, 2015

Platonic Solid said:
“Never” in this case, is a relatively short time. LED retrofit lamps of both types are a temporary band-aid solution for a short lived market while the industry transitions to all LED. Over the next few years, most lighting manufacturers will stop making fluorescent fixtures. GE is slated to stop at the end of this year. Fluorescent ballasts and lamp holders will slowly go the way of the tape deck and floppy disks.

From my experience testing LED retrofits, ballast compatible LED lamps are problematic. Obviously Cree and Sylvania have found the technology has issues. This likely stems from there being too many ballast varieties that these lamps need to be compatible with and/or the end user isn’t confirming ballast and lamp holder compatibility prior to installation as required by the instructions.

The temporary installation convenience comes at a price. Ballast compatible LED lamps are typically more expensive than bypass lamps. Even if they were the same price it would still be the more expensive option since you will eventually have to replace the $10 (or more) ballast at least once in the fixtures life time. Some instructions recommend installing a new ballast from day 1.

Now where did I put that Sony Walkman . . .

This is good information but I have a question. I have 9 8' 4 bulb fixtures in my shop, can I use a bypass type bulb if only one of the bulbs burns out or do I need to wait until 2 or 4 bulbs quit?

cybrdyke · Sep 6, 2015

dfiler2 said:
This is good information but I have a question. I have 9 8' 4 bulb fixtures in my shop, can I use a bypass type bulb if only one of the bulbs burns out or do I need to wait until 2 or 4 bulbs quit?

You'd still need the ballast to run the other 3 lamps, so although it's technically possible, it wouldn't make any sense to do that. It would make more sense to just bypass the ballast for all the lamps at that point.
You can, however, put a ballast-ready LED lamp in place of that dead tube...no problem.

dfiler2 · Sep 6, 2015

cybrdyke said:
You'd still need the ballast to run the other 3 lamps, so although it's technically possible, it wouldn't make any sense to do that. It would make more sense to just bypass the ballast for all the lamps at that point.
You can, however, put a ballast-ready LED lamp in place of that dead tube...no problem.

I realize I would need the ballast for the other three so I guess my question is can I bypass just the one bulb and operate the other three or two or one T-8 bulbs using the ballast meant for four bulbs.

cybrdyke · Sep 6, 2015

Platonic Solid said:
“Never” in this case, is a relatively short time. LED retrofit lamps of both types are a temporary band-aid solution for a short lived market while the industry transitions to all LED. Over the next few years, most lighting manufacturers will stop making fluorescent fixtures. GE is slated to stop at the end of this year. Fluorescent ballasts and lamp holders will slowly go the way of the tape deck and floppy disks.

From my experience testing LED retrofits, ballast compatible LED lamps are problematic. Obviously Cree and Sylvania have found the technology has issues. This likely stems from there being too many ballast varieties that these lamps need to be compatible with and/or the end user isn’t confirming ballast and lamp holder compatibility prior to installation as required by the instructions.From my experience using LED retrofits, ballast bypass tubes are problematic. We can agree that the end-user might be low-information on these products. But since the bypass tubes require fixture modification, this open up safety concerns when LED tubes are incorrectly installed or worse, when common fluorescents are re-installed by mistake. Ballast-ready tubes cause no issues if installed incorrectly. I agree that the issues that Cree and Sylvania had are most likely the combination of bad sockets and a design flaw.

The temporary installation convenience comes at a price. Ballast compatible LED lamps are typically more expensive than bypass lamps. Even if they were the same price it would still be the more expensive option since you will eventually have to replace the $10 (or more) ballast at least once in the fixtures life time. Some instructions recommend installing a new ballast from day 1.Patently false. There are ballast-ready tubes out there for under $10 each. And more often than not, you will never have to change the ballast, so no extra charges. With the ballast bypass tubes, you will have to pay a contractor to install (per UL), so you have a much more expensive installed product with the bypass product.

Now where did I put that Sony Walkman . . .

Short term band-aid? I hear this kind of talk alot from fixture manufacturers that have been locked up their laboratories too long. You're really under the impression that people will be replacing those millions of fluorescent troffers in buildings around the world in the next couple of years? C'mon man....

In the real world, people keep their fixtures and put in energy saving products until the fixture gets so old that it can no longer be used. The new LED products that are coming out will help these fixtures last even longer.
A good example of these new products is the recent development of LED replacements for 4 pin CFL lamps. Like the tubes, these are also ballast-ready. Sales of these new products are staggering as people hurry to replace their crappy old CFL lamps with new energy saving versions. There will be fluorescent fixtures out there for alot longer than "short term" and modiying them today to accomodate an oddly wired product might complicate things when the next cool product comes out....whatever that might be.
CD

Platonic Solid · Sep 6, 2015

CD, Please provide U.S. distributor link to ballast-ready tubes under $10 that can be purchased in quantities under 500 pieces.

Let's not pretend that you need an electrician to install bypass lamps yet you don't need one to replace a ballast.

Showkey, Please post the instructions that came with your Feit lamps. I tried finding them on their website, but no luck.

Measuring output at one location does not tell the full story. This may be fine for your application, but is not an accurate measure of total lumen output since the beam spread is different. Comparing output at the top shelf should tell a different story.

dfiler2, Most Instant Start 4 lamp fluorescent ballasts can be wired for 1, 2, 3 or 4 lamp operation. Technically what you are proposing is possible, though it's not really practical nor aesthetically appealing.

cybrdyke · Sep 6, 2015

Platonic Solid said:
CD, Please provide U.S. distributor link to ballast-ready tubes under $10 that can be purchased in quantities under 500 pieces.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-4-ft-T8-17-Watt-Daylight-Linear-LED-Light-Bulb-456608/206278132

Platonic Solid said:
Let's not pretend that you need an electrician to install bypass lamps yet you don't need one to replace a ballast.

I'm not saying that. Commercially, you need an electrician to install both. In a residential setting, we all know that no one is going to call an electrician to do it.
The difference is that a ballast-ready tube is UL listed as a lamp, meaning that anyone can replace it. No electrician required.
A ballast bypass tube is UL listed as a retrofit kit, which requires fixture modification, which requires an electrician.
There are a couple of exceptions, but for the most part....that's the difference.

Platonic Solid · Sep 6, 2015

cybrdyke said:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-4-ft-T8-17-Watt-Daylight-Linear-LED-Light-Bulb-456608/206278132

Cool! Can you explain what's going on with this Philips Instantfit lamp which appears to be inferior yet costs $25. Oddly, I don't see either of these lamp model numbers on the Philips website.

cybrdyke · Sep 6, 2015

Platonic Solid said:
Cool! Can you explain what's going on with this Philips Instantfit lamp which appears to be inferior yet costs $25. Oddly, I don't see either of these lamp model numbers on the Philips website.

Discontinued...or should I say, it is now the 12w version. Same performance.
16.5w became the 15w version, now dimmable. Same performance.
Distribution is selling both of these well under $20.
CD

Platonic Solid · Sep 6, 2015

I'd like to use these in new construction garage fixtures, but I can't justify the ballast cost.

Showkey · Sep 6, 2015

Platonic Solid said:
Let's not pretend that you need an electrician to install bypass lamps yet you don't need one to replace a ballast.

Showkey, Please post the instructions that came with your Feit lamps. I tried finding them on their website, but no luck.

Measuring output at one location does not tell the full story. This may be fine for your application, but is not an accurate measure of total lumen output since the beam spread is different. Comparing output at the top shelf should tell a different story.

.

Instructions. Simply remove the 4' fluorescent tube and replace with these new LED tubes. (Says this in big letters on the box.)

On the bulb there is a sticker saying turn power off before install.

On the box there caution about damp location, starting temp, not for use in exit signs, in bold type TURN THE POWER OFF BEFORE CONNECTING OR DISCINNECTING THE FIXTURE. Don't touch the lamp pins to the metal fixture. If it buzzes, flickers, abnormal operation, low light .....turn off and call customer service.

As for measuring output you really are carrying it too far. And is one step from just BS. This was a comparison with really only one variable ...THE BULBS... Nothing more..... nothing less.

As soon as turned the LED on it was very very noticeable there was MORE light. The meter ( the meter was not moved or touched) confirmed the LUX increase of 30%. Same height, same angle, camera was far enough away to not block the light.

I have no horse in this race. I am not completely sold on LED. Especially for low use lie a closet light. Spending $12-20 per bulbs with low use makes no "cents" .
So far the LED drop in seems to work well. But cost is too high.
If it fails in month or year I will use the warranty for this one time purchase.

I have a 50 T8 bulbs in the house, wood shop and auto shop. I am not going to run out and replace the T8's mainly due cost. When LED (T8) get to $5-8 per tube the LED choice would be easy. And greater light output and lower power used they will likely replace T8 bulbs in the market place. I will likely wait for my T8's to die. In an over the bench close work situation I could see an upside to getting more light for less with no hassles.

As for drop in........it was easy plain and simple, they did NOT offer the other LED choices at the point off purchase. I see there are some LED TUBES that can do both ballast and no ballast. I can remove the ballast but at this time found no need given the LED I purchased for this one time one location. The on off cycling in this room played some part in the purchase.

Platonic Solid · Sep 6, 2015

Showkey, I was just trying to point out that the beam angle, which is not specified anywhere, is likely much narrower than a 360° fluorescent which can have a significant effect depending on use. Obviously in an 8'x8' mud room, this is insignificant. As room size increases this becomes very significant - thus it's far from BS.

I have to assume that these Feit lamps can be used with rapid start or instant start ballasts since there seems to be no instructional comments to the contrary.

I do believe this lamp is ideal for your application, however, comparing a new LED with an old fluorescent lamp is misleading. You'd likely get an equally impressive difference comparing your old fluorescent with a new fluorescent (Yes, I'm assuming the fluorescent lamp you used was older). If you used a new fluorescent lamp, then I would attribute the measured difference to the tighter beam spread of the LED which directs more lumens directly below the lamp than a fluorescent bulb. The other annoying part with fluorescent bulbs is that you have to leave them on for a while before they reach full lumen output.

cybrdyke · Sep 6, 2015

Platonic Solid said:
I'd like to use these in new construction garage fixtures, but I can't justify the ballast cost.

Yeah, thats not really their intended purpose.
CD

Showkey · Sep 6, 2015

Platonic Solid said:
Showkey, I was just trying to point out that the beam angle, which is not specified anywhere, is likely much narrower than a 360° fluorescent which can have a significant effect depending on use. Obviously in an 8'x8' mud room, this is insignificant. As room size increases this becomes very significant - thus it's far from BS.

I have to assume that these Feit lamps can be used with rapid start or instant start ballasts since there seems to be no instructional comments to the contrary.

I do believe this lamp is ideal for your application, however, comparing a new LED with an old fluorescent lamp is misleading. You'd likely get an equally impressive difference comparing your old fluorescent with a new fluorescent (Yes, I'm assuming the fluorescent lamp you used was older). If you used a new flxuorescent lamp, then I would attribute the measured difference to the tighter beam spread of the LED which directs more lumens directly below the lamp than a fluorescent bulb. The other annoying part with fluorescent bulbs is that you have to leave them on for a while before they reach full lumen output.

Clarification and more info...
The T8 are about 6 months old.
They were on for 5 minutes when the LUX reading was taken.
The LED draw .34 amps at 124.2 volts.
T8 draw .60 amps at 124.2 volts
The LUX values are exactly the same as measure prior. The meter is 77" from the bulbs and 16" left of the center of the mixture. Moving the meter centered below the LED increased LUx to 672, T8 not measured in the center.

44% less power and 30 % more LUX output ..........when the price drops this might be a no brainier ....IF ......the life span is what they say ???????

The BS part is .....there are very few if any variables in this little side by side comparison.

Platonic Solid · Sep 6, 2015

OK, thus the lamps are effectively new, which means a 2 lamp fluorescent fixture with a normal ballast factor ballast puts out around 4,700 lumens. The Feit box claims 1,700 lm/lamp, so thats 3,400 lm total. The fluorescent still has higher total lumen output even though the Feit has higher output directly beneath the fixture. If Feit had IES files (which they don't) this would be easier to illustrate.

justsam · Sep 6, 2015

I would be a fan of removing unnecessary electrical noise sources, and I would consider a ballast of any non magnetic type to be a source, so I would be a fan of eliminating them.

I have under counter LED's that run on a linear DC supply. I am sure all types of fluorescent replacements have some form of electronics in them, be they with or without ballasts. I just like to minimize the sources since I listen to various forms of radio broadcast, both AM, FM, and others.

I should state that I have not tested either form so pure speculation on my part.

Showkey · Sep 6, 2015

All I can tell is other than the LUX values.......... ......there is a whole lot more light in the entire room........when the wife notices and then bothers to comment (what did you do to the pantry light) ..........that is key indicator it is different. In this case there was no complaint........"a nice what did you do".........that's not always the case.

Platonic Solid · Sep 6, 2015

If this Feit bulb is the one you have, the "Rotating Endcap for Adjusting Light Direction" is a nice feature, specially for wrapped fixtures that may (depending on lamp holder orientation) point the lamps away from center.

buening · Sep 8, 2015

Platonic Solid said:
OK, thus the lamps are effectively new, which means a 2 lamp fluorescent fixture with a normal ballast factor ballast puts out around 4,700 lumens. The Feit box claims 1,700 lm/lamp, so thats 3,400 lm total. The fluorescent still has higher total lumen output even though the Feit has higher output directly beneath the fixture. If Feit had IES files (which they don't) this would be easier to illustrate.

Its as you said, the beam pattern of the LED is narrower and thus even with a lower lumen rating the intensity directly below the LED bulb is higher than that of the fluorescent. This is why he is getting higher LUX values directly below the light. The lumen output of a fluorescent is dispersed around the perimeter of the tube, whereas the LED is more directional (and thus why they have rotating ends to redirect/adjust the LED light pattern direction). For small rooms (and task lighting like above a workbench) these will work well but for larger lighted areas like a garage I can't see them performing all that well. You also lose alot of ceiling light reflection with the directional LED tubes compared to fluorescent.

If the OP moves his LUX meter further up the wall to get outside of the beam pattern of the LED, you would likely see the fluorescent have higher LUX values than the LED.

ForceFed70 · Sep 8, 2015

Cyberdyke - some of your responses in this thread really have me confused.

You make some good points and have obviously given this a lot of thought, but some of your statements really make me shake my head. To me it sounds like you are advocating for the use of a "behind the ballast" type of fixture rather than removing the ballast. As others have said - this is a lazy man's solution. There is NO benefit other than saving time and plenty of drawbacks associated.

You've also made a statement about replacing 1 lamp out of a 4 lamp fixture. Or even 1 lamp in a 2 lamp fixture. You do realize that many ballasts are designed to run a lamp in series with another lamp right? You cannot do this in many fixtures - especially more modern versions. Or perhaps your claim is that one of these fixtures will operate in series with a traditional T8 lamp? I suppose it's possible - just assumed it won't work.

ForceFed70 · Sep 8, 2015

Showkey said:
Closet Pantry and mud room about 8'x8' white walls, white ceiling. One two tube T8 enclosed fixture with plastic lens. Light is turned off and on at least 30 times per day

Fixture was operating fine but the new bulbs had some flicker and a little slow to start. Fixture is likely 15 years old
Replaced the bulbs with Feit drop in no rewire LED bulbs from Costco price $37.

This was done as experiment....not sure if it makes "cents" or has technical merit.
Photos below show the light output change. Reading were taken with out the plastic lens in place meter was not moved.

FEIT must have got the "message" on the claim issues.....must be in 4 places on the box and bulbs...... energy cost, energy savings, bulb life and light output varies with the fixture.

Up side........... more light, instant on, no flicker, drop in no rewire

Down side.....cost, unknown if drop in concept.. is good or bad (thinking some one will comment) , bulb life remains an unknown.

Not that Consumer Reports is the "expert" in lighting but they rated FEIT standard LED bulbs a best buy.

Thanks for sharing!

I just wanted to give you some additional information.

- At 1700lumens vs 2800 lumens these lamps ("on paper" at least) provide much less light and are about on par with T8 in regard to efficiency.

- Measuring light output reliably is very complicated task. It cannot be done with any semblance of accurately using an iPhone.

- Not only is the iPhone a horrible meter with poor accuracy, LED light tends to be a lot more directional than florescent. Sometimes this is good, sometimes it's bad. ALWAYS it depends a lot on fixture/reflector design and the intended use. To do a decent job at comparing output you'd want to measure from multiple locations/angles and distances and ideally you'd factor the fixture into the equation (are you measuring useable light or total light output, etc.)

- Lux, Lumens, color temp, CRI - it's complicated. LUX or Lumens are both just one piece of a larger puzzle.

At the end of the day - sounds like you are happy with the purchase and other members may be as well. Thanks for sharing!

cybrdyke · Sep 8, 2015

ForceFed70 said:
You make some good points and have obviously given this a lot of thought, but some of your statements really make me shake my head. To me it sounds like you are advocating for the use of a "behind the ballast" type of fixture rather than removing the ballast. As others have said - this is a lazy man's solution. There is NO benefit other than saving time and plenty of drawbacks associated.

If by "behind the ballast", you mean a tube that works on the ballast...there are lots of benefits.
1. No electrician required to install it.
2. No re-wiring or other work to install it. Just change lamps.
3. Product is UL listed as a lamp.
4. This type product has very high lumens/watt.
5. Sockets dont need to be replaced in order to install.
6. No safety issue with improperly installed lamps.
7. No future safety issue with someone re-installing fluorescent lamps.
8. Lamp will respond to ballast factor, giving the correct amount of light rather than a "fixed" amount which can be too much or too little.
9. Existing electronic ballast is more robust and reliable than delicate LED driver.
10. Using ballast for power removes heat generating equipment from the end of the tube.

It's not a lazy man's way of doing it, but it IS a heck of alot easier. It makes more sense to do it this way. Why would you feel the need to remove a perfectly good operating ballast?

ForceFed70 said:
You've also made a statement about replacing 1 lamp out of a 4 lamp fixture. Or even 1 lamp in a 2 lamp fixture. You do realize that many ballasts are designed to run a lamp in series with another lamp right? You cannot do this in many fixtures - especially more modern versions. Or perhaps your claim is that one of these fixtures will operate in series with a traditional T8 lamp? I suppose it's possible - just assumed it won't work.

I believe this was in response to a question. Nearly all T8 fixtures use Instant Start ballasts with lamps wired in parallel. A very small amount of T8 fixtures use Programmed Start ballasts with lamps wired in series.
My recommendation for parallel lamps is that you should only use 1 less lamp than the ballast will operate, but it's not unheard of to use 2 less lamps.
With lamps wired in series, you must use the correct amount of lamps that the ballast will operate.
Yes, you can mix these LED tubes with fluorescent tubes, although I dont know why you would do that.

CD

cybrdyke · Sep 8, 2015

Platonic Solid said:
If Feit had IES files (which they don't) this would be easier to illustrate.

I have yet to see any IES files on a bare LED tube.
CD

Platonic Solid · Sep 8, 2015

cybrdyke said:
I have yet to see any IES files on a bare LED tube.
CD

Which is odd since we both know that any DLC qualified lamp had to have full photometric testing.
James Industry has the only LED tube lamp IES files I've ever seen and I notice they haven't been updating them.

buening · Sep 9, 2015

LEDtronics website has IES files for their LED tubes. I have no clue what quality their lamps are though. IES file is under the Specifications tab

http://www.ledtronics.com/Products/product_new.aspx?id=LED48T8BR-DLC-18W-XWW-101WF&d=T8 Tube Lights

CJ7VFR · Sep 9, 2015

Showkey said:
...there is a whole lot more light in the entire room........when the wife notices and then bothers to comment (what did you do to the pantry light) ..........that is key indicator it is different. In this case there was no complaint........"a nice what did you do".........that's not always the case.

To me, this the true value of how to tell if the lights are better.

You can use all the fancy light meters and what-not to see exactly what the light output really is, but it all comes down to one thing. Do the new bulbs you put in make more light for you.

If the answer is yes, I can tell a difference, then it's money well spent.

Kind of like doing modifications to your car, and your "**** dyno" says it made a difference in the performance.

You can take the car to a place and spend a lot of money on getting it dyno'ed for real, and find out just exactly how much HP you gained, but in the end, if you feel a change, it was worth it.

And to have a wife say something positive about a change is always going to be a GOOD thing!

Jim

Showkey · Sep 9, 2015

ForceFed70 said:
Thanks for sharing!

I just wanted to give you some additional information.

- At 1700lumens vs 2800 lumens these lamps ("on paper" at least) provide much less light and are about on par with T8 in regard to efficiency.

- Measuring light output reliably is very complicated task. It cannot be done with any semblance of accurately using an iPhone.

- Not only is the iPhone a horrible meter with poor accuracy, LED light tends to be a lot more directional than florescent. Sometimes this is good, sometimes it's bad. ALWAYS it depends a lot on fixture/reflector design and the intended use. To do a decent job at comparing output you'd want to measure from multiple locations/angles and distances and ideally you'd factor the fixture into the equation (are you measuring useable light or total light output, et

At the end of the day - sounds like you are happy with the purchase and other members may be as well. Thanks for sharing!

I agree the smart phone is the NOT best meter or scientific tool. So it should not be used to compare to lab specifications.........but in a side by side comparison with few variables as possible its still a reasonable tool. It is also a repeatable test.

I compare this to a HF ultra cheap voltmeter ........it not a fluke......but if you used to compare two battery voltage readings to each other it still valid as a comparison. Especially if you take multiple readings and they are repeatable. (Note not a HF fan in any way shape or form)

As for being happy or pleased with the LED drop in they are OK. At the current pricing I am not likely to buy again. Two years from now when they are $5 per tube it may then be a no brainier.

cybrdyke · Sep 9, 2015

CJ7VFR said:
To me, this the true value of how to tell if the lights are better.

You can use all the fancy light meters and what-not to see exactly what the light output really is, but it all comes down to one thing. Do the new bulbs you put in make more light for you.

If the answer is yes, I can tell a difference, then it's money well spent.

Kind of like doing modifications to your car, and your "**** dyno" says it made a difference in the performance.

You can take the car to a place and spend a lot of money on getting it dyno'ed for real, and find out just exactly how much HP you gained, but in the end, if you feel a change, it was worth it.

And to have a wife say something positive about a change is always going to be a GOOD thing!

Jim

1000% agreed. Lighting is a personal, subjective thing. All of our eyes are not identical, so we all see things a little differently. Even if there is no more lumens and the quality of the light is better, it will "feel" brighter.
If you like it and it's your space, then .....right on!!

Showkey said:
I agree the smart is the NOT best meter or scientific tool. So it should not be use to compare to lab specifications.........but in a side by side comparison with few variables as possible its still a reasonable tool. It is also a repeatable test.

I compare this to a HF ultra cheap voltmeter ........it not a fluke......but if you used to compare two battery voltage readings to each other it still valid as a comparison. Especially if you take multiple readings and they are repeatable. (Note not a HF fan in any way shape or form)

As for being happy or pleased with the LED drop in they are OK. At the current pricing I am not likely to buy again. Two years from now when they are $5 per tube it may then be a no brainier.

Well said....

CD

Showkey · Sep 9, 2015

buening said:
Its as you said, the beam pattern of the LED is narrower and thus even with a lower lumen rating the intensity directly below the LED bulb is higher than that of the fluorescent. This is why he is getting higher LUX values directly below the light. The lumen output of a fluorescent is dispersed around the perimeter of the tube, whereas the LED is more directional (and thus why they have rotating ends to redirect/adjust the LED light pattern direction). For small rooms (and task lighting like above a workbench) these will work well but for larger lighted areas like a garage I can't see them performing all that well. You also lose alot of ceiling light reflection with the directional LED tubes compared to fluorescent.

If the OP moves his LUX meter further up the wall to get outside of the beam pattern of the LED, you would likely see the fluorescent have higher LUX values than the LED.

Well seat of the pants judgement ( eye ball) gives feeling of a different amount of light on the sides and up higher between the bulbs change. Remeasured the light at the far front corner on shelf 48" off the floor.

LED 337 LUX. (Meter horizontal )
T8. 224. LUX

Right side Back shelf 62" off the floor at the corner. (Meter verticle)

LED 464. LUX
T8. 323. LUX

Right side Back shelf 72" off the floor in the same corner as above ( Meter vertical )

LED. 646. LUX
T8. 421. LUX

Left side back shelf 32" off the floor (Meter horizontal)

LED. 351. LUX
T8. 253. LUX

Meter verticle was changed because when reading the meter I block the light when on shelf in corner up high. Meter Verticle I leave the room and record the value. The meter position does not change and the only difference is the bulb change. T8 are allowed to "warm up".

This beam angle has peaked my interest. I do not have the time right now but will move this to a larger shop in the few days. These LED tubes appear to spread the light evenly with more intensity. The LED tube is opaque so you can not se the painting diet toon of the individual LEDs.

PoorOwner · Oct 22, 2015

I just installed a pair of these tubes today. It is noticeably brighter. I can't believe you guys are complaining so much about still having ballast, etc.
I didn't want to take apart the fixture and cut the ballast, etc. I was tired of the buzzing and warm up of the T12 (40W), but I do want the option to go back if needed. I don't think there was option on this product to power without ballast?

It's not the full light LED fixture, the important thing to me is that this is a direct replacement to my ceiling that took 5 minutes. I would like to guess these look a lot like T5HO. It's hard to look at them directly until I have the diffuser on. I have no idea how the other thread with the Costco shop light fixture guys are putting so many of them. I think I would only need to retrofit these 4 tubes + task lighting.

The good thing about these is that I can get a T12/T8 fixture / shop light that looks good and do the swap.

padstack · Oct 22, 2015

This is another option - http://www.energyfocusinc.com/wp-content/uploads/Intellitube-Commercial-32.pdf

Works both with and without the electronic ballast. If you want to just drop them in up front, you can. If you want to bypass the ballast when it fails, you can.

My Old Tools · Oct 22, 2015

buening said:
Its as you said, the beam pattern of the LED is narrower and thus even with a lower lumen rating the intensity directly below the LED bulb is higher than that of the fluorescent. This is why he is getting higher LUX values directly below the light. The lumen output of a fluorescent is dispersed around the perimeter of the tube, whereas the LED is more directional (and thus why they have rotating ends to redirect/adjust the LED light pattern direction). For small rooms (and task lighting like above a workbench) these will work well but for larger lighted areas like a garage I can't see them performing all that well. You also lose alot of ceiling light reflection with the directional LED tubes compared to fluorescent.

If the OP moves his LUX meter further up the wall to get outside of the beam pattern of the LED, you would likely see the fluorescent have higher LUX values than the LED.

Actually, they work very, very well as general shop lighting. I did my shop with Feit 4' LED fixtures. Per the rating on the box I have 43 lumens per SF and it's the brightest shop I've ever been in. Fluorescent lights have more output, but not more useable output.

Denwood · Oct 22, 2015

An iPhone may be a "poor" replacement for a pro tool, however as a comparative, I find them very useful. Showkey, this is an excellent little review with an attempt to quantify your observations with the tools at hand

I did a similar review on the Cree T8 replacement specifically looking at higher CRI lighting (the Feit is at a fairly low CRI of 80) and found excellent discussion in that thread as well. The Cree bulb was still brighter than the T8 TL950 off axis, which is consistent with your off axis observations on the Feit.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=274462

It's ranking #4 in Google "Cree t8 review" which illustrates the importance perhaps of good information and civilized discussion in threads like these ones

I'm waiting on a 90+ CRI direct wire T8 replacement.

PoorOwner · Oct 22, 2015

Actually I think I still have buzzing after listening again late at night. Is it the ballast that make the buzzing?
I still have to replace the other pair so I am not sure which is making the noise

Platonic Solid · Oct 22, 2015

PoorOwner said:
Actually I think I still have buzzing after listening again late at night. Is it the ballast that make the buzzing?
I still have to replace the other pair so I am not sure which is making the noise

Yeah, I was going to comment on your earlier statement regarding the desire to eliminate buzzing. Since you still have a ballast you should still have buzzing.

Drop in Feit LED vs Sylvania T8

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