Battle over Epoxy and Porcelain Tile...garage disaster, lots of pics!

mackgriggs · Jun 21, 2009

I think I've read every post on this forum, and still have a dilemma.

I have a 3 car garage, 580 sq/ft, that was part of our subdivisions model home, so the developer had an office in the garage, with walls and carpeting. Now that its gone, there are carpet glue marks (they had scraped, so its mostly smooth, but you can still see part of the carpet glue), and then large divets in the concrete where the walls were installed.

So, basically....my garage looks like garbage.

As you can see, there are divets and carpet glue marks. The round holes were previously patched, but not very well, and they are rough.

Right now, its a battle royale with epoxy vs. porcelain tiles. I looked at VCT, but don't want to continuously wax. RaceTrack is $3 a sq/ft.

So, that leaves epoxy and porcelain tiles.

Anyway, I'm going to be renting a diamond grinder. I'll patch the concrete with feather finish, and then grind it. The diamond grinding should remove the carpet glue as well.

The porcelain tiles, I would buy discounted somewhere for $1 sq/ft. I would be getting porcelain over just ceramic just b/c there will be some snow. I live in Boise, which is arid, but it does snow, but still not very much. Maybe I will do ceramic with a recommendation.

I mean, there will be 0% automotive work done in the garage. This is a pure, 100%, residential garage just used for storage, my Nissan altima (yeah, no porche or bmw guys), and storage. Part may be put back to an office. So, I'm not worried about chipping.

I would do epoxy, but a wolverine coat I think would be like $600, and tile would be $700-$800 with grout. Which btw, I would just be getting a dark grout to hide stains....maybe an epoxy grout if not terribly expensive.

The thing is, my neighbor just did epoxy and it looks like garbage....paint roller marks, uneveness everywhere...awful. But..he didn't diamond grind.

Anyway, if you can help me decide, I would love all of you!

Oh, and I also have a wood step with some carpet type stuff on too...you can tile it I believe (on wood), but what about epoxy? ->

Anyway, I'll also be using the diamond grinder on my front driveway which has previously been acid stained and sealed but has since faded due to neglect ->

And, a back patio which had something done to it but is now just peeling ->

For the back patio, I was thinking of just acid staining something in...but maybe also porcelain tile? Would porcelain tile be appropriate for outside freezing temps? (i know its supposed to withstand freezing....but not really sure)

tcianci · Jun 21, 2009

Your idea about patching the concrete is right on, there are lots of products that are designed to do just that. Check out a company called Garon Products. They are all about concrete repair materials. As far as you floor finish goes, The wood steps are probably easier to just scrap and rebuild. There are some tile adhesive mortars that will work over existing adhesives. Check with a good tile dealer about the products available. I have also had success with some types of adhesive using hot water and a wide bladed scraper. It may not work in your case but it costs nothing to try it. It would probably be a good idea to try to remove as much of the adhesive as possible because the stuff gets really gummy during the grinding process and it will probably bug up your diamond wheel.

mackgriggs · Jun 22, 2009

Thanks for your reply.

So, from your post, it seems like you are suggesting tile, since you are hinting at a special mortar that could just go on top of the current carpet adhesive anyway.

As for the wooden step, you also recommend rebuild...but, rebuild with what? Just another wooden step? Or, are you suggesting to build a concrete step instead?

Can either tile or epoxy go on wood?

rwhite692 · Jun 22, 2009

Porcelain tile would be great given your stated intentions for the garage. At Penske racing in Mooresville, the shop areas are all porcelain tile. When they crack one, they just bust it out and lay in a new one.

mackgriggs · Jun 22, 2009

Thanks for your reply. Do you think ceramic tile could also possibly pass? It would get snow on it a couple times a year....maybe 15 days total.

The thing is, if I go with porcelain, I have to find the absolute cheapest porcelain I can find. If I went ceramic, I could probably go with a more middle of the road one...

WolverineCoatings · Jun 22, 2009

I don't really think that this decision is that tough. First, you have several different materials with different expansions and contractions that will give you problems with the tile in an area that is not temperature controlled. As these areas expand and contract on a daily basis with temperature swings it can cause stress on something rigid like tile. Second, it sounds like you are already going to do the hard part... grinding.

My recommendation is to... Call Fred... See what the real costs are and the solutions to each problem. Since the Wolverine Coatings products are designed to work with each other with various expansion and contraction rates you will have success. Of course, I'm also going to go out on a limb and guess that your neighbor did NOT use Wolverine. The reason that so many DIYers have had success here is that the products are designed to make YOU look as good as your floor! So, quit fretting and call Fred... lol... :thumbup:

Eric

mackgriggs · Jun 22, 2009

Eric,
Thanks for your reply. I was waiting for a Wolverine post!

Actually, after talking with a few more contractors and about pricing, it looks like I can't grind. It starts adding cost and cost to the project....

So, a company can come in and grind it and prep the floor for $450 (580 sq/ft), and then plus the cost of Wolverine (here is from a previous post of yours -> http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24931)

Properly Prepare the concrete
Treat larger cracks if needed with IntegraFlex 1921 Self-Leveling Joint Filler
Prime with BondTite 1101
* Coat the entire floor with IntegraFlex 1980 Flexible Membrane
Coat with 12-20 mils of LiquaTile 1184
Flake it with DecoFlakes 130
Clearcoat with EnduraShield 2254

The wolverine coating has to be $600+ (I could be wrong..I'll call them tomorrow), so I'm pushing towards $1100 or so.

I can't actually rent a grinder now....a standing floor grinder rental is $350-$500 a day. That leaves a hand grinder, 7" circular....which I can get for $50 or so, but then I have 580 sq/ft doing it by hand? And....correct me if I'm wrong, but doing grinding with a hand grinder is not going to produce a level floor, plus leaves huge circular swirls in the concrete that will show up over an epoxy...right eric? I could be wrong, but even a 22 mil epoxy can't hide swirls?

So, that leaves tiling I believe....and, the actual tiles themselves can handle the temperate changes, its the mortar, but I believe you can buy special thinset/mortar that handles temperature changes...though I do have to do a bit more research on that....

Tiling looks like my option....but of course, its dependent on finding $1 sq/ft or so porcelain tile that can handle a 4 door sedan, and finding some help putting it in....I do have a guy for $20 an hour, and there is minimal cutting involved in this project, so it should be DIY level.....

The main problem with tile if you don't DIY is most people want $3-$6 sq/ft in labor to install...which is crazy.

WolverineCoatings · Jun 22, 2009

Thanks for your reply. I was waiting for a Wolverine post!

I haven't been on here for a long time. We have been so busy that I just haven't been able to make time. We've all been working really long hours so by the time I get home I'm just too tired.

Anyway, I'm not sure about your numbers on the grinder rental. That seems quite high to me. Where are you located? Anyway, plenty of people use hand grinders to do a floor. It sure is alot of work though. On these forums you can find a couple of posts by FFPL where he did floors using a hand grinder. You don't even see swirl marks in the primer.

Now, you are right the the problem with the tile isn't the tile itself. There is probably some kind of thinset type mortar that you can purchase that is flexible enough to handle the differing expansion and contraction of the various materials. I'm not really familiar with those materials. I would check with a company like Bonsal.

Anyway, the important thing is that you get a floor that is right for you. Advice here is always free *you get what you pay for... lol... But, whether you purchase a Wolverine product or go with tile it's got to be the right solution for your budget, your tastes, and (if your house is anything like mine) your wife... lol... So, see what Fred says... get the real costs of the grinder... the tile... the mortar... the patches... etc... and make the decision that is right for you. We'll help you any way we can.

mackgriggs · Jun 22, 2009

Well...I gotta hand it to you, threads like this ->

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26308

Do show just using a hand grinder....and, that guy used the hand grinder, and I don't see any "swirls".......and a hand grinder is like $25 a day. (of course, a week of pain for my back though).

My only concern is that particular thread didn't have any expansion joints, and no major cracks (not to mention circular divets like mine has).....so, I would need to do feather finish, and then seal the expansion joints with some kind of integraflex I guess. If the divets are relatively smooth with the surrounding concerete, and expansion joints are smooth too, I shouldn't see any of that after the epoxy, correct?

Plus...do you know if a hand grinder will "gum up" with some carpet adhesive residue?

timgr · Jun 23, 2009

An off-the-wall suggestion ...

No "work" in the garage, so why not fill the voids with a portland-based leveler and cover the whole floor with indoor-outdoor carpet? Use drip pans under the cars. No grinding.

mackgriggs · Jun 23, 2009

The carpet is an interesting suggestion, but I'll be driving over the carpet and parking on the carpet....the drip pan would catch oil and liquids, but the car wheels would do a number on the carpet. Do you have example pics of such an installation?

timgr · Jun 23, 2009

No, but I've seen a few garages converted to casual living space with this carpet. I'm thinking of the short-pile I/O carpet usually found in charcoal gray. It would not hurt the carpet to drive in and out over it, but you might rip it up if you turned the wheels back and forth in one spot. I'd imagine hot tires could melt the glue, then turning the wheels might rip the carpet.

Another possibility would be to epoxy or tile some tire paths and carpet everywhere else.

mackgriggs · Jun 23, 2009

Ok...I know I'm all over the board with this....but, now I'm thinking of this.

I can rent a $25 hand grinder.
Smooth the rough spots, feather finish the divots, and integraflex the expansion joints.
Hand grind the areas with carpet adhesive...not anything serious though...it doesn't matter if there will be swirls, b/c....

I think I'll do VCT! But....

As stated before, I don't want to continuously wax....

So, I think I'll either use bondtite or EnduraShield and put a clear epoxy coating on top.

Thoughts? Most VCT guys just use wax, and I have seen one user (roger55) put down bondtite on VCT on a counter, I'm having a hard time finding more people doing this on this forum...

timgr · Jun 23, 2009

Supposedly any surface imperfections will telegraph through the VCT. Just repeating what I've read here - if you search you'll find posts about clear over VCT. I recall Eric (that's his name? The Wolverine Coatings guy) described some commercial buildings or markets that use Bondtite or another of their clear products over VCT.

Otherwise that sounds like a capital idea, if that's the look you want. I think that the VCT floors look great, though I'm not a fan of the checkered flag look.

mackgriggs · Jun 23, 2009

I'm not a fan of the checkered flag look either to be honest. I'm not a racing enthusiast (or even car enthusiast)...so I would be doing more of a stone look, or some more artsy type designs.

Yeah, the floor imperfections do worry me a bit, but I will be feather finishing, grinding, and integraflexing a bit. Not too much though...the main benefit of the VCT is that you shouldn't have to do too much prep work.

Anyway, I'm trying to find out the differences over VCT for bondtite vs. endurashield, and still trying to get a quote on a wolverine epoxy too though...I'm having a hard time getting ahold of fred...

35mastr · Jun 23, 2009

In my opinion,If you are going to go through the trouble and the expense.

Why not just do or have the job done right the first time.

Rent the proper grinder for the job.

Lay down the best epoxy that you will need for your climate. Which from what I have seen that Wolverine has such materials.

I feel for you on the cost of such a project. But I learned a long time ago the hard way. Through just trying to get by the cheapest way out is not the proper way.

In the end. You will likley regret it. Not to mention you will have to look at the outcome every day.

I would not do any types of carpet considering that you will bring a car in that has snow on it. That will cause mildew real fast in a garage.

Jaguar Fan · Jun 23, 2009

mackgriggs said:
.....so, I would need to do feather finish, and then seal the expansion joints with some kind of integraflex I guess...

You're on a tight budget. If it were me, I would leave the expansion joints alone to save a bit on filler. See the following thread that contains pictures of doing the garage without filling the expansion joints.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16957

mackgriggs said:
.....Plus...do you know if a hand grinder will "gum up" with some carpet adhesive residue?

I can't answer from direct experience, but it wouldn't surprise me.

At my local Home Depot, they rent a machine designed to scrape up the adhesive off concrete floor. I think you would need to do this prior to any grinding.

Here are a couple cell phone quality pictures of the machine at the Home Depot tool rental. Do you have a Home Depot that has a tool rental department near you? The other thing is I think the price you've been quoted for a concrete grinder is also way too high. It should be $100 to $150

and

Jaguar Fan · Jun 23, 2009

mackgriggs said:
Ok...I know I'm all over the board with this....but, now I'm thinking of this...

Since you're still in the "thinking about it" stage, you might want to add this to your list of things to think about.

http://www.garagefloor.com/garage-floor-mats.htm

I don't know anything about this particular vendor -- they just came up first during a google search. Costco has something that looks like this in the local stores. For your use, it might make good sense - your prep work would be far lower, and you'd end up with something that much better than what you currently have.

Do you have a Costco near you?

Jaguar Fan · Jun 23, 2009

mackgriggs said:
... As you can see, there are divets and carpet glue marks. The round holes were previously patched, but not very well, and they are rough.

Here's a question. Are they "glue marks" or "glue residue"? That is, when you run your hand over it, do you feel the glue? Or is it just that it stained the concrete but the glue is now gone?

mackgriggs said:
... The porcelain tiles, I would buy discounted somewhere for $1 sq/ft. ...

One more thing for you to look at that might be appropriate for your intended use:

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Productgroup.aspx?Prodid=11038308&whse=BC&Ne=4000000&eCat=BC|3960&N=4008218&Mo=3&No=3&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&cat=21278&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&lang=en-US&Sp=C&topnav=

mackgriggs · Jun 23, 2009

JaguarFan,
Thanks for your posts.

Yeah, the local home depot didn't even have a standing machine diamond grinder...just a hand diamond grinder. I called around and the only one that had a 2 head stand behind diamond grinder was for $350 a day.

I can get a hand diamond grinder for $25 a day though.

Which is doable if I'm justing smoothing down the rough concerete spots (basically, I feather finish one day, and then grind any "rough" spots from the feather finish the next).

As for the carpet residue, the builders must have scraped it off before...if you look at the picture, you can see something on the concrete, but to the fingers its not much...very thin. I'm guessing they just took a floor scraper and did some manual scraping....which won't get it all.

So, a grinder, I'm thinking, should be able to take it off no problem without too much headache.

Then, as for the garage mats, yeah, I've looked at them. Basically its $1.50 a square foot, for the cheapest ribbed mats, and I would still have to smooth the divots in the concrete (as shown in the pic).

The tiles are just expensive....the cheaper costco stuff is $2.50 sq/ft, and racedeck is $3 sq/ft.

That is why I'm thinking of going the VCT route....just do the feather finish and grind work, but I don't have to go too crazy, just so its smooth. (if I went epoxy, I wold have to take off like an 1/8").

With VCT, including materials, its about $.70 sq/ft, and will look much better than the mats, for half price.

All I'm waiting on is pricing on bondtite or endurashield for 580 sq/ft...probably two coats.

mackgriggs · Jun 24, 2009

So, I was able to go see gb70's garage, since I'm in Idaho and about 15 minutes from his house. You can see pics here ->

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=64534&postcount=11

He has an awesome garage. Actually, its a combo VCT and epoxy garage...two "lanes" are epoxy finish, and everything else is VCT. He did it 3 years ago and everything is holding up great.

He actually did put a polyurethane over the top, and no waxing! Thats for me I'll tell ya. Also, the VCT has no problems with garage expanding due to weather here....and he drives on top of it with no damage, and no browning from tires, though that could be b/c of the polyurethane top.

Anyhow...I would recommend to anyone that wants the checkerboard to actually use the 2x2 squares for each "checker"...at least for anything 3 car and bigger...otherwise its just too "busy" in my opinion. gb70's garage would have looked awful with 1x1 "checkers".

Now just trying to finalize a design.

AlphaGarage · Jun 24, 2009

However opointed out that VCT will show any imperfection from the substrate is correct. Although it looks great when first installed, eventually as the tiles settle most bumps, nicks, and divots will transmit to the surface.

You can hand grind, it's a good way to go, but it can take some time and be hard on the knees/back. A 7" grinder might be the way to go if you have more than just a few square feet. For smaller areas a 4" grinder will do - you can pick up a good one for under $50. Plus - a angle grinde is just a good tool to have available, one of those that once you get them you wonder how oyu got along without it. Of course I say that about all my tools

The divots and voids can easily be filled with a mix of BondTite 1101 and sand. Pre-mix the BondTite 1101 per usualy instructions and then just add clean, fine, dry sand at a 6:1 ratio, 6 pars sand to 1 part mixed BondTite 1101. This makes a real strong, inexpensive filler. it's self-priming and can be over coated right away with our other epoxies. It can be a bit rougher than most concrete, but with a bit of practice you can smooth it out nicels, plus shoot to level it a bit below grade, and apply a tad more epoxy and it will self level to grade.

For most home and shop applications we recommend a three layer epoxy coating system for maximum durability and lasting appearance. The primer coat would be BondTite 1101, a 100% solids epoxy with extremely tenacious grip strength. That would be followed with a coat of LiquaTile 1184, this pigmented epoxy will give your floor the ability to withstand shock and impacts, protecting the concrete. Finally a clear coat of BondTite 1101 to help resist abrasion and give your floor that high gloss finish. The majority of Wolverine Coatings epoxies are 100% solids, there is no water or solvents to evaporate, so what you buy and what you apply is what you benefit from 100% when it cures.

For 580 sq ft your floor system would have 4.5 gallons of BondTite 1101 and 4.5 gallons of LiquaTile 1184. For most colors those would be $750, or about $1.30 per ft2. With those recommended materials, combined you would have a floor coating system with a nominal thickness of approximately 24.8 mils (not including waste – material left on brushes, in cans etc.). The BondTite 1101 would be split evenly, with half being used as the primer coat, and the other half being reserved and eventually used as the top clear coat.

That would be for an indoor floor, for floors with UV exposure you might want to use EnduraShield 2254 as the clear coat instead of the BondTite 1101, in which case the cost for all the epoxies and urethane would only be an additional $104 (approx $1.48/ft2). EnduraShield 2254 will also give you the extra benefits of curing crystal clear in addition to being harder and more durable than BondTite 1101.

mackgriggs · Jun 24, 2009

Thanks fred. Though, you did say this ->

However opointed out that VCT will show any imperfection from the substrate is correct. Although it looks great when first installed, eventually as the tiles settle most bumps, nicks, and divots will transmit to the surface.

But, with an epoxy, you have the exact same problem, but all of the imperfecftions, bumps, nicks, and divots are immediately seen, unless you are saying that if you have a heavy of enough load of flakes that it would hide those better than a VCT with a heavy color dispersion...for example ->

http://www.armstrong.com/commflooringna/product_details_toolbox_magnify.jsp?item_id=47156

or

http://www.armstrong.com/commflooringna/product_details_toolbox_magnify.jsp?item_id=76456

AlphaGarage · Jun 24, 2009

Epoxy will be more tolerant of imperfections. Small divots and hairline cracks will simply fill with epoxy as it self levels. Bumps smaller than the thickness of the epoxy will be covered, like a reef below the surface of an ocean. In our case our 3 coat system is usually 22 - 27 mils thick, so bumps about 18 mil or less will get covered.

If you have larger bumps and divots a heavy broadcast of flakes does cover a host of sins. Now a flake pattern printed on a VCT tile will probably do a better job of hiding problem spots than a solid color VCT tile, but physically the tile will still poke up or dip diown over the spot. Flakes in epoxy in conjunction with the epoxy itself will completely hide those same spots.

thegarageguy · Jun 24, 2009

If cost is your ultimate decider, then you will sure have problems. In this business you definately get what you pay for. Skimp in one area and it'll come back to bite you.

You have a unique situation, alot of patch work and mastic removal. Maybe, just maybe you are in over your head. I'm sure some guys will disagree but I've been doing this for over 7 years and I'm still learning and always find new ways, techniques and formulas to perfect my art.

I seasoned pro can make your floor look like it never had expansion joints or patch work. In order for this to happen you need good flexible joint sealer and someone who can patch well, like a seasoned spackler or plasterer. Next a good 100% solids that is poured, not rolled on will help hide the patchwork.

Again, if cost is higher in priority then quality then your get what you pay for.

Your patio, you'll need to resurface it with a polymerized cement in order for the grout lines not to ghost through. Then you can stain it and seal it.

Good luck.

Shocker · Jun 24, 2009

I put down Garage Deck. Made by Racedeck. It is their economy brand and it is great! Give Jorgen a call. $1.98 per square delivered. No muss, no fuss. Snaps down fast, it is tough and looks great.

With all those imperfections, cracks etc. I think you will have a lot of work in it to make it look nice. Wolverine makes a great product, but it can't do magic. I think you would have a lot more money into it than you think.

I really don't think that VHT is going to work well on that floor IMHO.

mackgriggs · Jun 24, 2009

Your patio, you'll need to resurface it with a polymerized cement in order for the grout lines not to ghost through. Then you can stain it and seal it.

Actually, there are no grout lines....basically, what the previous owners did was just put some concrete paint on top (not stain), and they put down caulk for "tile lines", and then once the paint was dry, they scraped off the caulk. So, basically, normal caulk was just used like "painters tape", but to make thin lines.

I think for the patio I just need to power wash the rest of the old paint off, and then do a muriatic acid wash, and then do an acid stain. Though...that is a project for after my garage floor gets done.

thegarageguy · Jun 25, 2009

mackgriggs said:
Actually, there are no grout lines....basically, what the previous owners did was just put some concrete paint on top (not stain), and they put down caulk for "tile lines", and then once the paint was dry, they scraped off the caulk. So, basically, normal caulk was just used like "painters tape", but to make thin lines.

I think for the patio I just need to power wash the rest of the old paint off, and then do a muriatic acid wash, and then do an acid stain. Though...that is a project for after my garage floor gets done.

Whatever those lines are, an acid stain will not hide or eliminate them but rather accentuate them. I doubt a power washing will remove them as well.

As for acid staining, never acid wash before you acid stain. It will negate the effect of it.

Research these things before you begin. You may find yourself making a bigger mess then what you started with because you didn't educate yourself enough.

mackgriggs · Jun 26, 2009

@thegarageguy

Definitely, I'll research out acid staining more in detail when I come to that venture...just like I've researched to death garage flooring...I'm just not at that point right now.

Anyway, let me know what you guys think. These are grid outlines for VCT patterns for my 3 car garage. The dark red is the unusable "house" area.

This first one is small 1x1 checkboard....

This is, in my opinion, a better 2x2 checkboard (not so busy)

This is like a "brown lattice" type thing

This is diamond pattern...just imagine that the pixelated areas are actually smooth lines, like in this pic ->

Let me know which one you like best! Remember that I'm not a racing fan, or even a car fan....but maybe a new owner is so they would like a race flag look....

hobie1dog · Jun 26, 2009

Lots of choices but it seems as if the ceramic tiles/ porcelan tiles are the longest lasting but a little more difficult to install and cover up all the mess underneath.

mackgriggs · Jun 26, 2009

@hobie1dog

I think porcelain tiles would be the longest lasting, if you did your research and found the best thinset/mortar. The thing is that it would be expensive...$2, $2.50 a sq/ft if you didn't buy the absolute cheapest porcelain tiles.

With porcelain tiles, VCT, and epoxy, you still have to level the floor, and fill cracks...but epoxy has the hardest time with floor prep, since every single bit of carpet adhesive would have to be removed, and any floor imperfection is immediately seen. VCT would see the imperfections after a while, and porcelain wouldn't at all as long as you did the thinset correctly.

The easiest installs are the racedeck type tiles, since I wouldn't have to level the floor even. The mats are a close second, though you would still need to fill in the floor holes...I think...but racedeck and mats are still much more expensive than VCT.

I think VCT, for the price, is my best option.

Richard Givan · Jun 26, 2009

I went through the same decision process as you about eight months ago. I have a three-bay, 651 SF garage. When I had the house built 17 years ago, I put down a clear top coating that the guys at the paint store swore would look great. And it did until the first time I drove a car with hot tires into it and parked.

I have lived with and regretted the decision a long time. I thought of using acid to remove what was left of the coating (not all that much, but still in hard to reach corners and the like) and putting down epoxy. But there were unsightly cracks and a few rough areas to deal with. And the more I read of horror stories about not doing epoxy right, the more skittish I became.

I flirted with VCT, but worried about durability and know that I'm not going to strip and wax my ****** garage floor a couple of times a year. I considered ceramic tile, but days of laying the stuff (oh my back!) and the fear of expansion cracks and broken tiles when I drop a lug wrench of something turned me off from that idea.

Last fall, I bit the bullet and ordered the top-of-the-line Racedeck when they had a Black Friday sale. It wound up costing $2.69/ft, delivered. I put it down over two fairly short work days, having my son-in-law help part of the second. I've been super pleased with it ever since. The only thing that I would prefer to be different is the way it buckles and raises a little between cars when the hot sun shines in on it. But that is only in the late afternoon the way my house is situated and really doesn't hurt anything. It actually settles down flat as the sun creeps further in and the expansion is evened out. I like that I can take it with me if I ever move, too.

Good luck with your decision. I just thought that we had gone through much the same process and my experience might give you a tad more information on which to make yours.
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34663&stc=1&d=1246027179

mackgriggs · Jun 26, 2009

Thanks for your reply.

Yeah, I would totally jump on racedeck if it wasn't 3-4x more expensive than VCT.

With your racedeck, do you get clickety-clak noises when you step on it? Also, how hard was it to cut to corners?

Also....from my design pics above, which do you like best?

Richard Givan · Jun 26, 2009

As to your designs, I guess I prefer what you're calling the brown lattice. I'm a linear kind of guy and making all those diagonal cuts in the diamond pattern just for the sake of fashion bothers me. Plus, if you don't get them dead on, the errors are going to start adding up.

The one foot checkerboard looks a bit busy for my tastes, which you can probably tell from the pattern I went with. Also, another consideration is that--as I understand it--the two colors hardest to keep looking clean are white (dirt and oil) and black (dust). That's also why I went with a graphite/alloy scheme with blue accents.

As for the infamous clickety-clack issue, yes, tile does sound different from the concrete. Some people report that a thin layer of foam (such as is used under wood laminate flooring) deadens most of it, but, again for me, it's a cure in search of a disease. If you are hustling across the floor, you can tell a difference. So what? Footfalls inside your house sound different on carpet, wood, tile and nobody seems to care. I think the click-clack issue only exists because of the novelty of the product.

Cutting the tiles was no problem. I have a well-equipped wood shop and planned to mark the tiles and go to the bandsaw for cuts. I did for two or three, then got real tired of treking about 100 feet and down stairs to reach it. I brought up a saber saw with a medium wood blade and had absolutely no trouble making the rest of the cuts. On a few places where I needed some really straight cuts, I did take them down to my table saw.

The Racedecks come in boxes with four tiles of the same color joined together, so I did need to break apart quite a few of them. I made a simple jig of a piece of 5/8" plywood about 1 1/2' by 2' with a straight edge tacked on one side, spaced so that the loops just overhung the edge. I would place the piece I needed to separate with the loop side against the straight edge and the other side hanging off, then use a rubber mallet or just step on the unsupported tile to get them apart. Takes a lot longer to explain than to do.

I can identify with your struggles to make your decision. I must have read and pondered for 6 months before making the leap. Good luck whichever way you go.

Romanova · Jun 27, 2009

I'm in this boat too and am heavily leaning towards porcelain tiles when the time comes...

mackgriggs · Jun 27, 2009

@Richard Givan

Thanks for your opinion...your blue highlight led me to changing my design a little. I think I'm leaning towards one of these 3...just trying to decide on final color palette...

Brushed sand

Nougat

Nougat with more highlight

@Romanova

Yeah, for a while I was heavily leaning towards porcelain as well...I just couldn't find a tile in my price range that I thought would hold up. Adding on the special thinset, and special grout, it was going way off track....for the price I could have got racedeck or something...which isn't perfect, but its way easy to install (no floor prep), plus I could have taken it with me.

But the VCT, for those not wanting to spend much, I think can't be beat.

tcianci · Jun 29, 2009

VCT will probably stand up ok but its usually the adhesive and not the tiles that fail in garage (read WET) applications. There is a reason that bare concrete is the flooring of choice for so many garages, It never looks real good and unless its been subject to what your floor has been through, it usually doesn't look really bad either, If I were you, I think I would do race deck, a bit at a time...maybe drop the hint that in leiu of gifts at the holidays or your birthday, another few dozen square feet of race deck will do nicely! Also your prep will be almost nil so you can back that cost out of the equation. Look around, maybe you have some stuff you can Ebay or otherwise scrape up a few bucks. Maybe a yard sale where you can turn a lot of your wifes stuff into your new floor!

mackgriggs · Jun 29, 2009

@tciani

Thanks for your reply. Could you explain a bit more about what you said here ->

usually the adhesive and not the tiles that fail in garage (read WET) applications.

the...(read WET) part.

Anyway, even if the adhesive fails in some parts, it only takes a little bit of effort to replace that adhesive and try again.

And yeah...I would go with racedeck...its just that racedeck costs $3.00 a square foot...and this VCT, including adhesive, prep work costs, wax, and the tiles, only costs $.80 sq/ft...

tcianci · Jun 29, 2009

Mac, You're right about it being easy to replace but the loose tiles that you will inevitably encounter tend to be the tip of the iceberg. I guess if you never drove a wet, dripping car in there, you would have no trouble but water has a way of wrecking just about anything it comes in contact with. You can prep and install your tile and then anything that happens from then on is a **** shoot...water, de-icing chemicals, automotive fluids, somewhat mixed together and then seeps in between the tiles. Remember that gravity is not your friend in this instance eventually it will compromise the bond between the tile and your concrete. The tiles are more than rugged enough to stand up to the chemicals but the glue is the weak link. I'm a remodeler, and have occasion to remove floors just like the one you are contemplating. Often on concrete, they just pop right off because the bond is weak but the tile job looks fine. One thing that I haven't mentioned is hydrostatic pressure, that will raise hell with just about any tile job except a loose floor like race deck.
If the VCT was a really good solution, there wouldn't even be a market for race deck, or epoxy finishes.
I cannot say your approach won't work, I don't know enough about the circumstances of your usage and the longevity of the bond but VCT will require considerable prep, will telegraph defects, will crack where there are expansion joints or any other relative movement between sections of substrate. If you do not achieve an intimate contact between the tile and the floor, the tile will crack as it molds itself to the concrete underneath, one way to minimize this is to warm the tiles up with a propane torch as you apply them, they get soft in a big hurry and you can force them into contact and that will help reduce cracks later on down the road.

Your expansion joints will be an issue with porcelain tile as well, I doubt that there is a floor finish material other than rug or a floating floor that will bridge those joints without failure. As for ceramic vs porcelain, tiles have ratings and there are ceramic tiles that are freeze/thaw stable and suitable for garage applications. It's not only the ruggedness of the tile but its resistance to water absorbtion that makes it good for a garage.

mackgriggs · Jun 29, 2009

@tcianci

Yeah, another user commented on the VCT adhesive and water...here it is ->

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=375633&postcount=85

I would definitely recommend what we call "cutback" glue. It is asphalt base and if any residual moisture, especially snow imbedded in tire treads, settles upon the floor and eventually between the tile joints, the moisture will not breakdown the glue as it will definitely do water based adhesives. You will not find this adhesive (S-89) on the shelves of most home improvement stores. It may be available special order at Lowes and the likes, but I know you can get it from an Armstrong distributor. We do not use it as much as we did years ago because of it's so-called environmental issues and probably more so, it's odor. I can not think any benefits the latex based adhesives have over cutback other than there mild odor.

So, I will have to look into that a little bit.

As for expansion joints, I think I've talked with enough people that generally say that after 9 years, the floor shouldn't move that much..and as long as the expansion joints are filled with feather finish and smooth on top, it shouldn't lead to cracking of the VCT.

Battle over Epoxy and Porcelain Tile...garage disaster, lots of pics!

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