1/4 drive - Koken vs Snap On.

[2ndGearRubber]

Wow, not sure any chrome socket is designed to hold up to that sort of use. Koken does make a specialty impact socket called "pathfinder." They have a beveled lead-in that helps guide the socket on to the fastener while it is still spinning.

In 1/4 drive it really doesn't seem to be an issue. On 3/8 I prefer to use impact sockets most of the time for such use, but 1/4 doesn't seem to have any wear issues.

Snap On, bought my deep and shallow set in the 80's , the 8, 10, 12 have been replaced over the years along with 2 extensions, I bought the mid-depth in the late 90's 8 & 10 have been replaced and the 5.5 since it ran away from home...............................

Almost sounds like the Williams would be the cheapest buy, replace the worn out ones with snap-on singles.

Sure would be nice if SO would do a BOGO.

 

[nicks78camaro]

I paid a grand out the door off the Snap On truck for 1/4" and 3/8" drive metric chrome sockets, including standard, semi deep, and deep in 2015.

I wouldn't pay today's prices but that's me.

 

[noid]

Koken focuses all their capabilities on socketry; specialization leads to better outcomes.

 

[ChevyEFI]

Get the other flip sockets from SO for the warranty.

If buying sockets for the sockets, not the warranty, I would go Ko-Ken.

 

[KnurledNut]

@2ndGearRubber
Snap-on are a premium, but they do 1/4 drive very well.
Long lasting alloy. Precision tolerances with reliable QC. Shallow broaching. Class leading minimal body and wall thickness. Necked down. Superior finish.
Add in the truck service and replacements that satisfy the demands of a pro technicians usage.
IMO, 1/4” is one of their products that really shines when compared to the other brands out there. More so than the bigger drive sizes vs. the competition.
MAC has nice ones, but not as refined.

 

[DerekV]

In my experience, koken has no warranty. I wouldn't expect any warranty from Williams either. They don't cover stuff simply worn out from use like the tool trucks do.

FWIW, I’ve warrantied a couple Williams USA sockets through Williams directly via email + pictures. The metal on these were ultra soft, like butter. Use on one fastener looked like it was hammered with an impact, obviously a material/workmanship defect.

I received a response from them 3 days later, and new sockets shortly after no fuss. I did have to send the defective sockets in, though, and on my dime. Not my preference but it is what it is.

 

[bcradio]

Or Icon (gasp)

This would be my choice

 

[Steve_P]

@2ndGearRubber
Snap-on are a premium, but they do 1/4 drive very well.
Long lasting alloy. Precision tolerances with reliable QC. Shallow broaching. Class leading minimal body and wall thickness. Necked down. Superior finish.
Add in the truck service and replacements that satisfy the demands of a pro technicians usage.
IMO, 1/4” is one of their products that really shines when compared to the other brands out there. More so than the bigger drive sizes vs. the competition.
MAC has nice ones, but not as refined.

Everything by SO is at a premium $; we all know that; for any item, you are paying 2.5-3X for the equivalent USA made product: to support the dealer, "free" financing, warranty service, and the publicly owned company with a million dollar a year salary CEO. That adds up to $580 plus tax for ~30 sockets. $20 a socket- for 1/4 drive??? That's just insane to me.

AFAIK, Williams USA are identical dimensionally to SO. So, I think you can change SO for Williams in your post. Made on the same assembly line- fact. We don't know if they use the same material and heat treat, but I'd suspect so; industrial use is actually more severe than automotive repair- that same socket is used all day long, every 20-30 seconds on an assembly line. And even if Williams is slightly lower quality, and I'm skeptical, OP can just buy the most needed sockets from SO one at a time. I guess I'm too rational, but I can't see how you can justify spending $600 on ~thirty 1/4" drive chrome sockets.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Everything by SO is at a premium $; we all know that; for any item, you are paying 2.5-3X for the equivalent USA made product: to support the dealer, "free" financing, warranty service, and the publicly owned company with a million dollar a year salary CEO. That adds up to $580 plus tax for ~30 sockets. $20 a socket- for 1/4 drive??? That's just insane to me.

AFAIK, Williams USA are identical dimensionally to SO. So, I think you can change SO for Williams in your post. Made on the same assembly line- fact. We don't know if they use the same material and heat treat, but I'd suspect so; industrial use is actually more severe than automotive repair- that same socket is used all day long, every 20-30 seconds on an assembly line. And even if Williams is slightly lower quality, and I'm skeptical, OP can just buy the most needed sockets from SO one at a time. I guess I'm too rational, but I can't see how you can justify spending $600 on ~thirty 1/4" drive chrome sockets.

I'm leaning very hard towards USA williams, replace with snap on as required. The best part is since the two brands appear and are physically identical, replacements won't be particularly "mismatched" visually.

Being that williams socket sets have been found with snap on mixed in, they certainly do commingle to an extent. My guess has always been snap on does their extra polishing/finishing steps, and puts theirs in the center of the heat-treat batch for the most consistent product. I had a few williams which wore pretty quickly, like within a year. My 3/8 deeps show little/no wear after a couple years. I think the Williams product is a bit less consistent, however for the price? I think one would net a savings.

 

[bpwoodworking]

Maybe nepros? I have KoKen zeal and Stahlwille for the 1/4” stuff, both are great. I mostly use these inside electrical boxes on machines and I have no complaints.

I have some nepros 1/4 stuff but no sockets, they’re fantastic.

 

[F-22]

Heard it a few times that the Williams and Snap On sockets are made on the exact same product line. They are the same dimensions apart from the outside knurling/lettering. I doubt factory orders separate steels for each one, they're probably just made in bulk and put onto separate outside stamping lines for different brands. I also have a Bahco branded version, and I hear they brand them as CAT as well.


Can't go wrong with Koken, but if you're planning on replacing the broken ones with Snap On, I'd just get the Williams instead. I think you can't go wrong with that.

 

[TBEVO]

Both! This is GJ LOL. Ok, the shorty Zeals are REALLY short as said. I have them in 1/4 and 3/8 and use them when necessary, which is rarely. So, I treat them as a specialty socket, as said. I don't have any "standard" Koken sockets, as I had plenty by the time I discovered Koken here, but if I wanted to buy sockets today, I'd for sure buy the shorty Zeals if I ever planned on working on a transverse engine vehicle, and then a set of typical short sockets in whatever brand. And of course you also need mid-length.....

Haha, what was I thinking? I have some real old sockets of mixed brands and I want to start fresh and new. I love the koken ratchets I have. I see the Zeal series have mid and extended length too. I wish I could go somewhere and get my hands on them before purchasing.

 

[TBEVO]

Or Icon (gasp)

I was thinking about this too. I don't see the tool trucks often and Harbor Freight is easy to stop by and grab replacements.

 

[setfocus]

I believe the $20 a socket.

About 5 years ago I was doing a tune up on an f-150 and the 8mm deepwell snappy fell off my crappy bluepoint air ratchet, with horrible socket retention, when I bumped into something pulling it out. Fell down the back side of the motor, on top of the trans somewhere.

Replacement cost $16, didn't make much on that tune up

 

[T45]

1/4 inch sockets really are all over the place. Any decent Taiwan brand will work for most repairs, and in a pinch for just about everything. For motorcycles and airplanes, etc you will use a ton of 1/4 drive and it makes alot of sense to get picky.

Some of the considerations are: socket height (big variations here), knurling quality (same), and on-bolt fitment. There is also some pretty big differences in hardness (personal tasted).

Its hard to go wrong with snap-on, provided you bought them 20-30 years ago or inherited them, SEP program etc. And alos you had the good fortune to get deep and shallow (since you need both). At current retail prices, its more of "if you have to ask, you cannot afford them", becaue they are getting prohibitively expenseive (particularly the deep sets).

If you do actually need them or some their features (basically very shallow shallows, very shallow broaches on the deep, very hard HRC, etc) you can pick them up used (ebay/pawn shop), although prices have been going up even for used over the past 5 years.

Also consider that 1/4 mid-deeps in general are very useful, and the snap-on shallows are SOOO shallow some times and you need to pair them Deeps or mid-deeps or a set of Taiwan sockets (deeper in standard), since the SO can be too shallow for knuckle clearance or bolt clearance some times.

Like all things, YMMV...Just my $0.02

 

[Pinemarten]

Koken Engineers analyzing socket for warranty claim:

"It appears to have been neutral dropped"
"What???................no warranty!
"We are done here!"
muttered expletives not translated.

 

[M6erfan]

I'll throw another one out there . . .

OEM Tools. I really like the design of their sockets.



I've never used one on an impact, I've never warrantied one, YMMV . . .

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Koken Engineers analyzing socket for warranty claim:

"It appears to have been neutral dropped"
"What???................no warranty!
"We are done here!"
muttered expletives not translated.

"You have dishonored your shop, your family, and yourself".

 

[bpwoodworking]

For about the same price as a set of snap on 1/4” sockets, one can buy a Hazet 1/2 and 1/4 set that includes 1/4” and 1/2” drive sockets, ratchets, extensions, a bit holder and bits.

I like snap on stuff but not sure what they’re doing that Hazet isn’t doing.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I was thinking about this too. I don't see the tool trucks often and Harbor Freight is easy to stop by and grab replacements.

I am almost considering this, simply for the data.
I priced the stuff out at ~70 bucks.

Still, I'd save 10 bucks just buying tekton, which I know has a simple warranty.

For about the same price as a set of snap on 1/4” sockets, one can buy a Hazet 1/2 and 1/4 set that includes 1/4” and 1/2” drive sockets, ratchets, extensions, a bit holder and bits.

I like snap on stuff but not sure what they’re doing that Hazet isn’t doing.

I'm looking for the best of the best. Snap on, Williams, koken, etc.

I don't know anything about Hazet. I'm sure they're nice stuff, perhaps in the same group I listed above. But being that I don't actually know, I'm tepid to try when I could spend 170 and get something I know 100% would be good. (Williams USA)

 

[AEAdam]

Something’s wrong. You should be able to get a buy one get one deal on 1/4” drive sockets. Both sets for something like $250.

And if your driver or customer service doesn’t have a deal, they should be showing up on eBay. I just did a quick look. Complete sets 5-15, not 4-14, brand new are around $150-170. Shallow and deep are around $300.

I have a lot of respect for Koken. So no advice on whose sockets to buy. There are a few snap on tools that I felt were game changers. Long strong ratchets, spec: SHLF80A. Bit sockets, wrenches, and 1/4” flank drive.

Ok I’ll offer this advice: for 1/4” drive my SO sockets are strong and tight fitting. But the eco-system is in ways more impactful. The fit of the extensions and crispy ratchets, variety of ratchets I find very attractive. Maybe choose based on what extensions and ratchets you have or are interested in.

 

[AEAdam]

Heard it a few times that the Williams and Snap On sockets are made on the exact same product line. They are the same dimensions apart from the outside knurling/lettering. I doubt factory orders separate steels for each one, they're probably just made in bulk and put onto separate outside stamping lines for different brands. I also have a Bahco branded version, and I hear they brand them as CAT as well.

Please make it stop. They are not the same. We’ve been through this 1000 times. There’s testing and all kinds of evidence. Williams and Snap On sockets are not equivalent.

You can make different products, types, different qualities etc, on a single production line.

Williams sockets are good quality, competitive tools. They are not the best of the best though.

 

[Steve_P]

The "problem" with most, or all, of the Taiwan short sockets, at least in 1/4 drive, is that they're ~3mm taller than the typical USA short socket like Williams. This can be good or bad, depending. Since I'm an idiot, I have Williams USA short, Capri short, Gearwrench mid length, Williams deep..... If you can deal with the Tekton short sockets being 3mm longer, then it's a no brainer as you can buy singles as needed and get them in a few days. But if you want to stick with "first world", then...

I personally can't see why you'd buy Hazet or Stahlwille sockets in the US, unless you're a home user and love Germany. And here comes the "but, they're the best" posts LOL. I have some "specialty" Stahlwille wrenches, but I wouldn't consider their sockets, just because of I can't imagine they're vastly superior to anything else, and very limited availability. It's like chasing after Toptul here; why? Unless there's something unique that no one else offers, I personally don't see the sense in buying a brand with nearly no sales support and limited availability unless they have a unique product, or it's clearly been proven thru testing to be better than anything else.

 

[Wrench97]

Please make it stop. They are not the same. We’ve been through this 1000 times. There’s testing and all kinds of evidence. Williams and Snap On sockets are not equivalent.

You can make different products, types, different qualities etc, on a single production line.

Williams sockets are good quality, competitive tools. They are not the best of the best though.

What!! next you'll tell us that Chevies and GMC's are different

 

[AEAdam]

The "problem" with most, or all, of the Taiwan short sockets, at least in 1/4 drive, is…

…they are SLOPPY. Not a big deal in 3/8” drive, but a game changer in 1/4”.

Snap On, and I assume Koken, fit fasteners tightly and inspire confidence. For those of you who have never used these brands, 1/4” drive is a great place to start.

I felt Craftsman only made one set of 1/4” sockets and just marked them in inches or mm to build the sets. Very vague, ill fitting, with extensions so loose they were like wobbles. Should have been called ”wobble minus”.

 

[MarcSeattle]

I suggest the OP think about the Koken Nut Grip sockets. I got a set of the ¼" since it seems I am more likely to drop a small nut compared to a big one. They work great, and the fit/tolerance is excellent.

BTW, I bought a few Koken extensions too, and they fit better and with less wiggle than my Snap On. I like the regular Koken extensions more than the Zeal (I tried both) because of the knurling. The knurling is just the right amount of grippy vs hard-on-the-hands, and the cutouts in the knurling keep them from rolling on flat surfaces.

 

[MarcSeattle]

Snap On runs about $580 plus tax, 5-15mm + 5.5.

Koken runs about $140 plus tax, 4-14mm + 5.5. However, I am cheap and like free/combined shipping, and will likely buy a 1/4 metric hex socket set for an additional $45 plus tax. I am counting this as an addition to the koken socket price, because I said "next time I buy koken I'm buying these bits".

For the regular sockets, you might try looking at Amazon.co.jp. They have the Koken RS2400M/12 set for about $45. Link. That's for the 4, 5, 5.5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14. Note the shipping is $20 from Japan so you might want to combine it with other purchases.

The Zeal line is about $10 more. Link.

If you're worried about warranty service, at that price you could buy a few extra sets compared to Snap-On.

Also, I recall that Zoro had the individual Nut-Grip sockets for less money than the set (especially with the 20% off coupon).

 

[T45]

For the record, the best sockets in 1/4 shallow-drive are Hazet.

 

[Snapped-off]

Please make it stop. They are not the same. We’ve been through this 1000 times. There’s testing and all kinds of evidence. Williams and Snap On sockets are not equivalent.

You can make different products, types, different qualities etc, on a single production line.

Williams sockets are good quality, competitive tools. They are not the best of the best though.

Where's the evidence? Has anyone actually tested their hardness?

 

[American Locomotive]

I suggest the OP think about the Koken Nut Grip sockets. I got a set of the ¼" since it seems I am more likely to drop a small nut compared to a big one. They work great, and the fit/tolerance is excellent.

BTW, I bought a few Koken extensions too, and they fit better and with less wiggle than my Snap On. I like the regular Koken extensions more than the Zeal (I tried both) because of the knurling. The knurling is just the right amount of grippy vs hard-on-the-hands, and the cutouts in the knurling keep them from rolling on flat surfaces.

While I'm sure nut grip sockets are plenty strong, he's already concerned about wear on his sockets. I'm not sure nut grip sockets, especially in those small sizes, would be ideal for what he's doing with them.

 

[kbeefy]

I'm looking for chrome. I haven't been able to convince myself I need 1/4 drive metric impact sockets...

Just curious, any reason for this? I have snap on chrome and matco impact, I personally barely ever touch the impact.


Theres an 8-10mm flip socket? Never heard of this... I think I need one!

 

[Dakotadadv8]

IMHO it would be more credible to get feedback from Pros who have used or are using Snap on and Koken for a long period of time. As a DIYer I have Snap on 1/4 drive socket sets and I don't used them professionally, definitely not as frequent as the Pros. I would think truck tools are the go to for basics such as wrenches, sockets, and ratchets, etc.

 

[kbeefy]

Theres an 8-10mm flip socket? Never heard of this... I think I need one!

Oops, I bought one.

 

[joel63]

Just curious, any reason for this? I have snap on chrome and matco impact, I personally barely ever touch the impact.


Theres an 8-10mm flip socket? Never heard of this... I think I need one!

I'm not sure it made in 6 point, the one I have is 12 point.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Where's the evidence? Has anyone actually tested their hardness?

If someone on Garage Journal KNEW for certain the exact differences between USA Williams and Snap On - it would be the equivalent of proving a cover up in the JFK assassination.

 

[KnurledNut]

If someone on Garage Journal KNEW for certain the exact differences between USA Williams and Snap On - it would be the equivalent of proving a cover up in the JFK assassination.

I know a guy who worked for Snap-on making tools. He is retired now. I have never repeated anything he has shared, but we discussed things he probably shouldnt have told me (NDA).

 

[CHI_Tool&Die]

Where's the evidence? Has anyone actually tested their hardness?

All I know is that they had the dude from ToolsDelivered on here tell everyone that the Williams USA and Snap-on sockets are one and the same and that the difference is in the finishing. The Snappys are better polished, better coated, better marked and that adds up. I work in manufacturing and people tend to overlook just how much polishing and coatings add to jobs.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Just curious, any reason for this? I have snap on chrome and matco impact, I personally barely ever touch the impact.


Theres an 8-10mm flip socket? Never heard of this... I think I need one!

As you said, barely ever touch them. I have a 41x20 sized cart, one drawer is for 1/4 drive and pliers. I legitimately need an impact socket maybe 2 times/month.

The drawer has 1/4 drive metric - shallow, mid, deep, universal, impact universal, nut grip, zeal low profile. Ain't got no room!


Snap on needs a KRSC cart, 41 inches wide, 24 deep, flip top. I would buy one tomorrow.

 

[Snapped-off]

All I know is that they had the dude from ToolsDelivered on here tell everyone that the Williams USA and Snap-on sockets are one and the same and that the difference is in the finishing. The Snappys are better polished, better coated, better marked and that adds up. I work in manufacturing and people tend to overlook just how much polishing and coatings add to jobs.

I'm not refuting there could be extra steps involved there. But I can't tell a difference side by side. Cover up the stamps, and I'd challenge anybody to point out which is which.

 

[F-22]

There’s testing and all kinds of evidence.

How can you say that and provide nothing?

I never saw any definitive proof, just hearsay. Maybe better polished and thicker chrome but that's like saying Williams is intentionally being made worse. Williams is not cheap, it is priced as high as most globally made high end sockets are. It is only cheap when compared to Snap On and maybe some other US brands but not cheap when compared to almost any global brand in the world like Koken or Hazet.

Does Williams chrome fall off and are they visually less polished than the Snap On sockets? I assume polishing sockets is fully automated anyway, do you think they lower the cycle for a couple of seconds or what? The ones I saw seem to look the same.