1/4 drive - Koken vs Snap On.

[bpwoodworking]

I am almost considering this, simply for the data.
I priced the stuff out at ~70 bucks.

Still, I'd save 10 bucks just buying tekton, which I know has a simple warranty.



I'm looking for the best of the best. Snap on, Williams, koken, etc.

I don't know anything about Hazet. I'm sure they're nice stuff, perhaps in the same group I listed above. But being that I don't actually know, I'm tepid to try when I could spend 170 and get something I know 100% would be good. (Williams USA)

The "problem" with most, or all, of the Taiwan short sockets, at least in 1/4 drive, is that they're ~3mm taller than the typical USA short socket like Williams. This can be good or bad, depending. Since I'm an idiot, I have Williams USA short, Capri short, Gearwrench mid length, Williams deep..... If you can deal with the Tekton short sockets being 3mm longer, then it's a no brainer as you can buy singles as needed and get them in a few days. But if you want to stick with "first world", then...

I personally can't see why you'd buy Hazet or Stahlwille sockets in the US, unless you're a home user and love Germany. And here comes the "but, they're the best" posts LOL. I have some "specialty" Stahlwille wrenches, but I wouldn't consider their sockets, just because of I can't imagine they're vastly superior to anything else, and very limited availability. It's like chasing after Toptul here; why? Unless there's something unique that no one else offers, I personally don't see the sense in buying a brand with nearly no sales support and limited availability unless they have a unique product, or it's clearly been proven thru testing to be better than anything else.

I tend to use the German brands as a litmus test for peak-expensive. If you’re charging significantly more than Hazet or Stahlwille I gotta wonder why.

I don’t have Williams 1/4 drive but I do have Stahlwille and KoKen Zeal. Both are excellent, nice accurate fit on the fasteners.

Not sure about ‘lack of support’ if I need it I can get it in a few days. If I need something in an emergency I can get it sooner from another brand if need be.

 

[bcradio]

I'm not refuting there could be extra steps involved there. But I can't tell a difference side by side. Cover up the stamps, and I'd challenge anybody to point out which is which.

They are exactly the same including finishing. Been there seen it

 

[Etchase]

proto j47125s $200.

 

[Snapped-off]

proto j47125s $200.

I'm not sure OP will run into much SAE stuff these days.

 

[Pinemarten]

I think our OP should buy whatever he wants, and throw in some Koken Pathfinder sockets in 8, 10, 12, and 14mm. Those should cover the most used sizes. They ought to be able to withstand the neutral drop, bleach burnout, impact technique!

 

[scooby074]

We all know how SO preforms, But Id love to see either Koken or the German brands in an actual US (or Canadian) shop with real rust and tool "abuse" that naturally happens getting the job done. And get a true report, not some 10 min video fluff on YT.

 

[Etchase]

I'm not sure OP will run into much SAE stuff these days.

You’re right. Wrong part number. Proto J47351S is the best of both worlds.

 

[F-22]

We all know how SO preforms, But Id love to see either Koken or the German brands in an actual US (or Canadian) shop with real rust and tool "abuse" that naturally happens getting the job done. And get a true report, not some 10 min video fluff on YT.

This is the internet so when I read it, it seemed very ignorant as if the tools in Europe are not used as much.

Since most of Europe is geographically much higher, colder, more damp and salted, I'd sooner expect the rust issues to be even worse overall. European cars have lots of mechanical issues and that's a different story, but in terms of rustproofing I think they're on top. That's because it's needed there the most. Lots of VWs, Audis, Volvos and even some French cars are know to be very resistant to rust (I admit, a lot of cars through the years were also notorious for it). But I can't think of a single Japanese or American car that would be known for it's good rustproofing. Nearly all of Europe is a "rust belt".

 

[nicks78camaro]

The difference between Snap On and USA Williams is most likely just branding, slight finishing, and warranty/warranty service.

Otherwise if they were inferior, people would be on here complaining about them.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

This is the internet so when I read it, it seemed very ignorant as if the tools in Europe are not used as much.

Since most of Europe is geographically much higher, colder, more damp and salted, I'd sooner expect the rust issues to be even worse overall. European cars have lots of mechanical issues and that's a different story, but in terms of rustproofing I think they're on top. That's because it's needed there the most. Lots of VWs, Audis, Volvos and even some French cars are know to be very resistant to rust (I admit, a lot of cars through the years were also notorious for it). But I can't think of a single Japanese or American car that would be known for it's good rustproofing. Nearly all of Europe is a "rust belt".

I can't say anything about the market over there, but here in the US the German brands tend to use much higher quality hardware than the competition. They frequently, and thickly, wax coat inside cavities. The steel is generally good quality on the panels.

Issue is, they're over engineered and have dumb pattern failures.

 

[richfinn]

We all know how SO preforms, But Id love to see either Koken or the German brands in an actual US (or Canadian) shop with real rust and tool "abuse" that naturally happens getting the job done. And get a true report, not some 10 min video fluff on YT.

It's pretty damn rusty where I am up in The Yorkshire Dales, I started buying Ko-ken a few years ago after a being a long time Snap-On abuser (mostly due to cost and poor franchisees hell bent on selling expensive toolboxes to teenage kids).

The performance of my Ko-ken stuff has been excellent/100% reliable/no breakages, used outdoors with hammers & impacts on all manner of high mileage rust buckets and taxis etc.

It's way more affordable and easier to get hold of in the UK (48hrs and it's on the doorstep).

It's maybe not quite as pretty as brand new Snap-On (Z series stuff is close), but I'm going to be using it to fix stuff so I don't care

I'll say this about Ko-ken, they really care about the products they make and sell, they innovate, the distributors are good, the packaging is nice quality but elegantly simple (you get free stickers too), they are proud of their brand in a way that has sadly disappeared in the west, of course the tools are top notch quality and the range is very extensive.

The founder of Ko-ken actually learned the socket/tool business in the USA which might explain a lot

When Snap-On first started out they were a socket and drive handle supplier (until they diversified their range.)

Ko-ken are like that, great tools without the fluff

 

[richfinn]

I can't say anything about the market over there, but here in the US the German brands tend to use much higher quality hardware than the competition. They frequently, and thickly, wax coat inside cavities. The steel is generally good quality on the panels.

Issue is, they're over engineered and have dumb pattern failures.

It hasn't always been that way, there was a time when some European manufacturers built solid rot free simple cars.

The Peugeot 205 was the first car that didn't really rot in our climate (it was galvanized and had a good coating), very simple lightweight (no power steering required) and superb handling, the diesel engine versions (non Turbo) became very popular on the slippery Farm roads round our way.

They are a very clever design and you still see them chugging around thirty years on (The GTi version was better/faster than the VW Golf GTi), they also built a completely bonkers rally version and beat the Audi Quattros to the WRC.

Now those simple cars are mostly history and everyone wants gadgets galore, except old Yorkshire Farmers who love to run old vehicles (quite often on cooking oil instead of Diesel).

 

[scooby074]

It's pretty damn rusty where I am up in The Yorkshire Dales, I started buying Ko-ken a few years ago after a being a long time Snap-On abuser (mostly due to cost and poor franchisees hell bent on selling expensive toolboxes to teenage kids).

The performance of my Ko-ken stuff has been excellent/100% reliable/no breakages, used outdoors with hammers & impacts on all manner of high mileage rust buckets and taxis etc.

It's way more affordable and easier to get hold of in the UK (48hrs and it's on the doorstep).

It's maybe not quite as pretty as brand new Snap-On (Z series stuff is close), but I'm going to be using it to fix stuff so I don't care

I'll say this about Ko-ken, they really care about the products they make and sell, they innovate, the distributors are good, the packaging is nice quality but elegantly simple (you get free stickers too), they are proud of their brand in a way that has sadly disappeared in the west, of course the tools are top notch quality and the range is very extensive.

The founder of Ko-ken actually learned the socket/tool business in the USA which might explain a lot

When Snap-On first started out they were a socket and drive handle supplier (until they diversified their range.)

Ko-ken are like that, great tools without the fluff

I do like the look of the Kokens. And when they are on promo, the prices are phenomenal, albeit higher in Canada than what the US sees.

Hows the warranty? Particularly for having them declare something "Abuse" then denying warranty? I know I can do just about anything to a SO socket and my driver would warranty it (when I was a pro and saw him weekly). This included running chrome on impacts, splitting sockets from hammering them on, etc etc.

Ive heard a few anecdotes that KoKen's NA distributors were tight with warranty. Someone is going to say "Well you shouldnt get warranty for abuse" and maybe thats correct, but thats not how I personally roll. If Im paying a premium for something I kind of expect to use it to 110%. With SO, unless your driver is an absolute ****, you will get taken care of in my experience.

Of course, you have to weigh in that Koken is cheaper up front, so even if you have to purchase replacements for "abused" sockets, youre still money ahead over SO.

 

[M6erfan]

I do like the look of the Kokens. And when they are on promo, the prices are phenomenal, albeit higher in Canada than what the US sees.

Hows the warranty? Particularly for having them declare something "Abuse" then denying warranty? I know I can do just about anything to a SO socket and my driver would warranty it (when I was a pro and saw him weekly). This included running chrome on impacts, splitting sockets from hammering them on, etc etc.

Ive heard a few anecdotes that KoKen's NA distributors were tight with warranty. Someone is going to say "Well you shouldnt get warranty for abuse" and maybe thats correct, but thats not how I personally roll. If Im paying a premium for something I kind of expect to use it to 110%. With SO, unless your driver is an absolute ****, you will get taken care of in my experience.

Of course, you have to weigh in that Koken is cheaper up front, so even if you have to purchase replacements for "abused" sockets, youre still money ahead over SO.

If 'how you roll' means hammering away all day on a 12mm chrome socket with an impact, or put a 3ft cheater bar on it, you're going to be disappointed with the Ko-ken warranty/support.

I've never broken a socket, I don't live in the rust belt, I own impact 1/4" sockets. YMMV.

 

[richfinn]

I do like the look of the Kokens. And when they are on promo, the prices are phenomenal, albeit higher in Canada than what the US sees.

Hows the warranty? Particularly for having them declare something "Abuse" then denying warranty? I know I can do just about anything to a SO socket and my driver would warranty it (when I was a pro and saw him weekly). This included running chrome on impacts, splitting sockets from hammering them on, etc etc.

Ive heard a few anecdotes that KoKen's NA distributors were tight with warranty. Someone is going to say "Well you shouldnt get warranty for abuse" and maybe thats correct, but thats not how I personally roll. If Im paying a premium for something I kind of expect to use it to 110%. With SO, unless your driver is an absolute ****, you will get taken care of in my experience.

Of course, you have to weigh in that Koken is cheaper up front, so even if you have to purchase replacements for "abused" sockets, youre still money ahead over SO.

Never broken any Ko-ken or tried to use any kind of tool warranty since around 2001.

I try to buy the best quality tools I can get hold of with an eye on good value, I like Snap-On tools but no access to a dealer where I am and even more ludicrous pricing than North America so even that is a pretty worthless warranty to me.

If I did break a tool using it incorrectly (like chrome on an impact or cheater pipe) my own personal moral compass wouldn't let me submit it for warranty anyway (old fashioned Yorkshire upbringing in which cheating other people out of goods and services is considered ungentlemanly), It's just good manners to be honest and admit it was your fault so some poor engineer at the factory doesn't have to go looking for an issue because of a "white lie" to save somebody £10, you will often find they will give you a free replacement anyway because people just prefer honest customers.

Generally if I do break anything I try to buy a better version if available, thankfully no such problems with Ko-ken yet

 

[CHI_Tool&Die]

I do like the look of the Kokens. And when they are on promo, the prices are phenomenal, albeit higher in Canada than what the US sees.

Hows the warranty? Particularly for having them declare something "Abuse" then denying warranty? I know I can do just about anything to a SO socket and my driver would warranty it (when I was a pro and saw him weekly). This included running chrome on impacts, splitting sockets from hammering them on, etc etc.

Ive heard a few anecdotes that KoKen's NA distributors were tight with warranty. Someone is going to say "Well you shouldnt get warranty for abuse" and maybe thats correct, but thats not how I personally roll. If Im paying a premium for something I kind of expect to use it to 110%. With SO, unless your driver is an absolute ****, you will get taken care of in my experience.

Of course, you have to weigh in that Koken is cheaper up front, so even if you have to purchase replacements for "abused" sockets, youre still money ahead over SO.

I’ll be honest, if warranty is a big concern the tool trucks and box store house brands are the best bets. I’ve never had luck with a German or Japanese brand warranty anything for user abuse. Not saying they won’t, just that I’ve personally never had it happen.

 

[kbeefy]

Snap on needs a KRSC cart, 41 inches wide, 24 deep, flip top. I would buy one tomorrow.

I use a Sunex 8060 as my 'cart'. It's 41x24 with a work surface, not a flip-top.




When my SnapOn guy saw it he ordered one to sell. It went over so well he ordered 6 more and sold them.
For some reason Sunex discontinued them.

 

[Tynee]

Anybody that's shopping for the WIlliams USA set, I just bought it on Protoolwarehouse.com for $53. Free shipping in CONUS over $99, so I odered the SAE set as well at $49. Upgrading my 25 year old Craftsman USA's.

https://protoolwarehouse.com/4-14mm-williams-1-4-dr-shallow-socket-set-6-pt-12-pcs-msm-12hrc/

They claim they are in stock, and given the prices I've seen quoted earlier in this thread, seems to be a bargain. I'll let you know if it turns out to be a scam.

 

[Steve_P]

I do like the look of the Kokens. And when they are on promo, the prices are phenomenal, albeit higher in Canada than what the US sees.

Hows the warranty? Particularly for having them declare something "Abuse" then denying warranty? I know I can do just about anything to a SO socket and my driver would warranty it (when I was a pro and saw him weekly). This included running chrome on impacts, splitting sockets from hammering them on, etc etc.

Ive heard a few anecdotes that KoKen's NA distributors were tight with warranty. Someone is going to say "Well you shouldnt get warranty for abuse" and maybe thats correct, but thats not how I personally roll. If Im paying a premium for something I kind of expect to use it to 110%. With SO, unless your driver is an absolute ****, you will get taken care of in my experience.

Of course, you have to weigh in that Koken is cheaper up front, so even if you have to purchase replacements for "abused" sockets, youre still money ahead over SO.

Yeah, but Koken isn't priced premium for a "first world" premium quality product. Premium pricing is Snap On, and you are paying for the no questions replacement with the massive markup. Sure, both Koken and Williams USA cost more than the "same" Taiwan product, but Taiwan has a much lower labor costs than Japan and the USA. It's like expecting the US to compete with Mexico or China on labor rates; we can't.

I'm baffled how so many people here expect no question tool replacement, for abuse or normal wear, when they don't pay the premium for that. I want my cake and eat it too!

 

[AEAdam]

This is the internet so when I read it, it seemed very ignorant as if the tools in Europe are not used as much.

Since most of Europe is geographically much higher, colder, more damp and salted, I'd sooner expect the rust issues to be even worse overall. European cars have lots of mechanical issues and that's a different story, but in terms of rustproofing I think they're on top. That's because it's needed there the most. Lots of VWs, Audis, Volvos and even some French cars are know to be very resistant to rust (I admit, a lot of cars through the years were also notorious for it). But I can't think of a single Japanese or American car that would be known for it's good rustproofing. Nearly all of Europe is a "rust belt".

Europe is different and it may not be obvious on either side of the Atlantic. Here are a couple factors that might help folks understand:
1) In the UK, and I suspect countries in the EU, every car gets inspected every year (MOT). The inspections are thorough and anything that needs doing is often considered a safety issue - e.g. if there's a chance your car will break down, they consider that a "road safety" issue and they fix it, without asking permission. If you can't pay, you don't get the car.

2) If the MOT finds significant rust, they either fix it or refuse to issue the MOT. This gets **** cars off the road. Many US states have no inspection or just a cursory emissions test.

3) "Regular service" from a "mains dealer" is smart because it effects the value of the car. Even private garages do a pretty good job of routine maintenance. Again, my experience was they just fix it and give you the bill. You don't really get to pick and choose maintenance.

4) Some EU countries don't permit people to work on their own cars or discourage this (Switzerland?).

SO: US is huge and kind of the wild west of automobiles. Where I live, our highways feel like a Mad Max movie with stuff flying off cars, people drive like they are running from the cops high on meth (which they may be). I personally found cars to be in better shape in Europe generally, drivers were more serious and better trained. I can imagine that the life of a mechanic here vs there could be VERY different in terms of the cars and the customers.

 

[Stubby1743]

1) In the UK, and I suspect countries in the EU, every car gets inspected every year (MOT). The inspections are thorough and anything that needs doing is often considered a safety issue - e.g. if there's a chance your car will break down, they consider that a "road safety" issue and they fix it, without asking permission. If you can't pay, you don't get the car.

As far as the UK is concerned, just about every part of that is incorrect.

 

[AEAdam]

As far as the UK is concerned, just about every part of that is incorrect.

Like to hear more.

I lived there for 5 years. I'd bring my car in for MOT and leave with new tires, brakes, repairs I didn't know I needed. I think there were some places that just did MOT - just an inspection center. Some places were also garages. Had a friend with an ancient defender that needed its frame welded to pass MOT. It was a lot of work. Had other friends with cars that couldn't pass MOT. Has this changed since i was there? Left in 2016.

In the US, at least in many states, no one may look at a vehicle for years. Many states have no mandatory inspection.

 

[M6erfan]

Like to hear more.

I lived there for 5 years. I'd bring my car in for MOT and leave with new tires, brakes, repairs I didn't know I needed. I think there were some places that just did MOT - just an inspection center. Some places were also garages. Had a friend with an ancient defender that needed its frame welded to pass MOT. It was a lot of work. Had other friends with cars that couldn't pass MOT. Has this changed since i was there? Left in 2016.

In the US, at least in many states, no one may look at a vehicle for years. Many states have no mandatory inspection.

In the U.S., car inspections are like home inspections. Generally worthless.

 

[richfinn]

Like to hear more.

I lived there for 5 years. I'd bring my car in for MOT and leave with new tires, brakes, repairs I didn't know I needed. I think there were some places that just did MOT - just an inspection center. Some places were also garages. Had a friend with an ancient defender that needed its frame welded to pass MOT. It was a lot of work. Had other friends with cars that couldn't pass MOT. Has this changed since i was there? Left in 2016.

In the US, at least in many states, no one may look at a vehicle for years. Many states have no mandatory inspection.

We don't do MOT repair work without customer authorisation, you want to be 100% sure your gonna get paid like everywhere else (you would quickly fall foul of Trading Standards and end up in court if you did that in the UK).

There are just MOT stations that don't do repairs (mostly run by a government enforcement agency)

There are plenty of bad garages who don't do a very good job of maintenance.

There are plenty of heaps of old junk without an MOT and horrendous drivers on our roads

 

[Pinemarten]

In my corner of the Pacific Northwest, even if you gave everybody a brand new vehicle,
the roads would still resemble a Mad Max movie. Between landslides, fallen trees, roadkill,
poor highway maintenance, and stuff blowing out of pickup trucks, it is truly the Wild West!

 

[AEAdam]

We don't do MOT repair work without customer authorisation, you want to be 100% sure your gonna get paid like everywhere else (you would quickly fall foul of Trading Standards and end up in court if you did that in the UK).

There are just MOT stations that don't do repairs (mostly run by a government enforcement agency)

There are plenty of bad garages who don't do a very good job of maintenance.

There are plenty of heaps of old junk without an MOT and horrendous drivers on our roads

Sorry for the rabbit hole: I used to fly back and forth frequently. Lived in Dorset, so pretty far from you. The difference between US drivers in similarly rural Pennsylvania, and UK drivers in West Dorset was pretty staggering. My neighbors can't seem to bother to keep their cars in their lanes. They can't execute a turn into a shop without fading into the (massive) oncoming lane. Its ridiculous. Just stay in your lane! Hard to steer with a coffee cup in one hand, iphone in the other.

 

[Stubby1743]

Like to hear more.

In the UK private vehicles do not have to have an annual MOT test until they are three years old. Then, for reasons that escape me, they do not need any further tests after forty years from the date of first registration.

The MOT test only carries out certain very specific tests. It does not check all aspects of a vehicles functionality. It does not even check for full compliance with the "Construction and Use Regulations"

There is absolutley no question of MOT testing garages being able to undertake repair work without the vehicle owners consent. If a failure point is deemed to effect safety, the vehicle should not be driven away from the testing station but it could be trailered away to another location for repairs.

 

[M6erfan]

We don't do MOT repair work without customer authorisation, you want to be 100% sure your gonna get paid like everywhere else (you would quickly fall foul of Trading Standards and end up in court if you did that in the UK).

There are just MOT stations that don't do repairs (mostly run by a government enforcement agency)

There are plenty of bad garages who don't do a very good job of maintenance.

There are plenty of heaps of old junk without an MOT and horrendous drivers on our roads

Sounds like we have a lot in common

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Choice made! TLDR - Bought USA Williams


First of all I wanted to thank all of the GJ members who PM'd me with good deals on sockets - new and nearly new. I also looked at Ebay for new/used snap on sockets. So I circled back to my premise early in the thread about wanting to buy and support 1st world manufacturing. Thus, me buying sockets from a GJ member or Ebay does nothing to support the 1st world manufacturing base, aside from adding a very small amount of demand to the market from my two sets of sockets.

Anyway, Williams USA checked the boxes for quality, COO, and new. Plus when I replace the high wear units with snap-on, they two should blend quite well. Toolsdelivered was my previous choice for Williams, but they appear to be no more. So I got a deep set of 1/4 metric on amazon, and the shallow set on ProToolWarehouse. I've never done business with the latter, but they seem to carry all the Snap-on industrial brands.

 

[AEAdam]

Choice made! TLDR - Bought USA Williams


First of all I wanted to thank all of the GJ members who PM'd me with good deals on sockets - new and nearly new. I also looked at Ebay for new/used snap on sockets. So I circled back to my premise early in the thread about wanting to buy and support 1st world manufacturing. Thus, me buying sockets from a GJ member or Ebay does nothing to support the 1st world manufacturing base, aside from adding a very small amount of demand to the market from my two sets of sockets.

Anyway, Williams USA checked the boxes for quality, COO, and new. Plus when I replace the high wear units with snap-on, they two should blend quite well. Toolsdelivered was my previous choice for Williams, but they appear to be no more. So I got a deep set of 1/4 metric on amazon, and the shallow set on ProToolWarehouse. I've never done business with the latter, but they seem to carry all the Snap-on industrial brands.

Good choice! Williams tools are good.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

Good choice! Williams tools are good.

I've been very happy with both the Taiwanese and USA made Williams tools I've bought over the years.

I would generally say I don't believe in "signs". However our snap-on guy missed Monday, and didn't show up today like he normally does in the afternoon to make up for a Monday-skip. I was leaning hard towards williams.... then back to koken..... decided I needed to price the truck at a minimum. I want to support my local businesses if I can. Eh, call it a "sign". I was itching for some new sockets, Snappy wasn't around, so I moved forward without that data. Rash? Perhaps. Hopefully 1/4 drive sockets won't be on sale next week!

 

[Steve_P]

Choice made! TLDR - Bought USA Williams


First of all I wanted to thank all of the GJ members who PM'd me with good deals on sockets - new and nearly new. I also looked at Ebay for new/used snap on sockets. So I circled back to my premise early in the thread about wanting to buy and support 1st world manufacturing. Thus, me buying sockets from a GJ member or Ebay does nothing to support the 1st world manufacturing base, aside from adding a very small amount of demand to the market from my two sets of sockets.

Anyway, Williams USA checked the boxes for quality, COO, and new. Plus when I replace the high wear units with snap-on, they two should blend quite well. Toolsdelivered was my previous choice for Williams, but they appear to be no more. So I got a deep set of 1/4 metric on amazon, and the shallow set on ProToolWarehouse. I've never done business with the latter, but they seem to carry all the Snap-on industrial brands.

Tools Delivered disappeared 3+ years ago. Not sure what happened, but I think that Williams had a change in business model. I placed a lot of orders thru TD over 5+ years and it was all shipped directly from Williams- basic stuff like socket sets, ratchets, screwdrivers. Of course I was always like, "Why does Williams have a dealer if they ship everything direct....?"

 

[Wrench97]

I've been very happy with both the Taiwanese and USA made Williams tools I've bought over the years.

I would generally say I don't believe in "signs". However our snap-on guy missed Monday, and didn't show up today like he normally does in the afternoon to make up for a Monday-skip. I was leaning hard towards williams.... then back to koken..... decided I needed to price the truck at a minimum. I want to support my local businesses if I can. Eh, call it a "sign". I was itching for some new sockets, Snappy wasn't around, so I moved forward without that data. Rash? Perhaps. Hopefully 1/4 drive sockets won't be on sale next week!

BOGO deals for sure next week.................................

 

[scooby074]

Never broken any Ko-ken or tried to use any kind of tool warranty since around 2001.

I try to buy the best quality tools I can get hold of with an eye on good value, I like Snap-On tools but no access to a dealer where I am and even more ludicrous pricing than North America so even that is a pretty worthless warranty to me.

If I did break a tool using it incorrectly (like chrome on an impact or cheater pipe) my own personal moral compass wouldn't let me submit it for warranty anyway (old fashioned Yorkshire upbringing in which cheating other people out of goods and services is considered ungentlemanly), It's just good manners to be honest and admit it was your fault so some poor engineer at the factory doesn't have to go looking for an issue because of a "white lie" to save somebody £10, you will often find they will give you a free replacement anyway because people just prefer honest customers.

Generally if I do break anything I try to buy a better version if available, thankfully no such problems with Ko-ken yet

Great testimonial thanks.

One mans abuse is another's getting the job done in a timely manor . Not so much a concern for me anymore, but there was a day when it was. I dont consider it dishonest in any way (warranty is a built in cost of the tool), and all the SO (and other tool truck) drivers understood it was just a cost of doing business.

 

[CHI_Tool&Die]

Choice made! TLDR - Bought USA Williams


First of all I wanted to thank all of the GJ members who PM'd me with good deals on sockets - new and nearly new. I also looked at Ebay for new/used snap on sockets. So I circled back to my premise early in the thread about wanting to buy and support 1st world manufacturing. Thus, me buying sockets from a GJ member or Ebay does nothing to support the 1st world manufacturing base, aside from adding a very small amount of demand to the market from my two sets of sockets.

Anyway, Williams USA checked the boxes for quality, COO, and new. Plus when I replace the high wear units with snap-on, they two should blend quite well. Toolsdelivered was my previous choice for Williams, but they appear to be no more. So I got a deep set of 1/4 metric on amazon, and the shallow set on ProToolWarehouse. I've never done business with the latter, but they seem to carry all the Snap-on industrial brands.

ProToolWarehouse is legit. I’ve ordered a ton of stuff from them and they are always available for questions and customer service. Nice choice for USA Williams. I think you’ll really like them. Maybe one day you’ll join the dark side and play with German or Japanese tools.

 

[F-22]

Europe is different and it may not be obvious on either side of the Atlantic. Here are a couple factors that might help folks understand:
1) In the UK, and I suspect countries in the EU, every car gets inspected every year (MOT). The inspections are thorough and anything that needs doing is often considered a safety issue - e.g. if there's a chance your car will break down, they consider that a "road safety" issue and they fix it, without asking permission. If you can't pay, you don't get the car.

2) If the MOT finds significant rust, they either fix it or refuse to issue the MOT. This gets **** cars off the road. Many US states have no inspection or just a cursory emissions test.

3) "Regular service" from a "mains dealer" is smart because it effects the value of the car. Even private garages do a pretty good job of routine maintenance. Again, my experience was they just fix it and give you the bill. You don't really get to pick and choose maintenance.

4) Some EU countries don't permit people to work on their own cars or discourage this (Switzerland?).

SO: US is huge and kind of the wild west of automobiles. Where I live, our highways feel like a Mad Max movie with stuff flying off cars, people drive like they are running from the cops high on meth (which they may be). I personally found cars to be in better shape in Europe generally, drivers were more serious and better trained. I can imagine that the life of a mechanic here vs there could be VERY different in terms of the cars and the customers.

Most points depend heavily on the country. UK is not DE and DE is not Romania or Austria or Finland or Italy... The technical tests can be very relaxed in some countries, and there is also always corruption. If you pay a bit more I guarantee you can pass the inspection in any country with whatever (bigger problem is the insurance company in case of an accident, but many ignore that). There's definitely lots of crappy cars on the road as well.

Assessing rust damage is very hard for every car. And many inspectors simply can't know everything. Many are just plain dumb, they'll check tyre thread depth but ignore some much more important flaws.

4th point - by the way, Switzerland is definitely not an EU country!

 

[GCS]

Starting to lean towards Williams USA, as any worn out could be replaced with snap on singles which would -mostly- match.

Snap On, bought my deep and shallow set in the 80's , the 8, 10, 12 have been replaced over the years along with 2 extensions, I bought the mid-depth in the late 90's 8 & 10 have been replaced and the 5.5 since it ran away from home...............................

@2ndGearRubber
Snap-on are a premium, but they do 1/4 drive very well.
Long lasting alloy. Precision tolerances with reliable QC. Shallow broaching. Class leading minimal body and wall thickness. Necked down. Superior finish.
Add in the truck service and replacements that satisfy the demands of a pro technicians usage.
IMO, 1/4” is one of their products that really shines when compared to the other brands out there. More so than the bigger drive sizes vs. the competition.
MAC has nice ones, but not as refined.

Please make it stop. They are not the same. We’ve been through this 1000 times. There’s testing and all kinds of evidence. Williams and Snap On sockets are not equivalent.

You can make different products, types, different qualities etc, on a single production line.

Williams sockets are good quality, competitive tools. They are not the best of the best though.

I’m hoping that you will be happy with your choice.
Reading your posts it seems like you have many more years ahead wrenching.
I would have ponied up for the Snap on.

Are the Snap on expensive? F’n “A”!
But you would have been done. Which you already know.
The fit & warranty issues would be non existent.
I kinda did what you are describing. Didn’t have or couldn’t afford Snap on for years. As needed or replacement of tools 10/15 years in I was buying Snap on.
I wish I would’ve bought more Snap on earlier in my career. I would have been further ahead.

just my $.02.
I wish you well

 

[2ndGearRubber]

I’m hoping that you will be happy with your choice.
Reading your posts it seems like you have many more years ahead wrenching.
I would have ponied up for the Snap on.

Are the Snap on expensive? F’n “A”!
But you would have been done. Which you already know.
The fit & warranty issues would be non existent.
I kinda did what you are describing. Didn’t have or couldn’t afford Snap on for years. As needed or replacement of tools 10/15 years in I was buying Snap on.
I wish I would’ve bought more Snap on earlier in my career. I would have been further ahead.

just my $.02.
I wish you well

That's the nice thing about snap-on, it's the nuclear option. Generally speaking, one and done. It's a balancing act of costs, as the money I saved on these sockets will likely still be spent on other tools/training/etc. Hopefully I'll net a savings and still have a quality setup after a few get replaced with snap on.

And yes, I hope to have many years left! I just turned 33 and started mounting tires just before my 21st birthday.

 

[drtyler]

He can’t post the proof because there isn’t any.

The people that know for sure work in the Snap-on socket factory or in the engineering offices, and they aren’t on here telling us about it.

Where's the evidence? Has anyone actually tested their hardness?

How can you say that and provide nothing?

I never saw any definitive proof, just hearsay. Maybe better polished and thicker chrome but that's like saying Williams is intentionally being made worse. Williams is not cheap, it is priced as high as most globally made high end sockets are. It is only cheap when compared to Snap On and maybe some other US brands but not cheap when compared to almost any global brand in the world like Koken or Hazet.

Does Williams chrome fall off and are they visually less polished than the Snap On sockets? I assume polishing sockets is fully automated anyway, do you think they lower the cycle for a couple of seconds or what? The ones I saw seem to look the same.

 

[bcradio]

He can’t post the proof because there isn’t any.

The people that know for sure work in the Snap-on socket factory or in the engineering offices, and they aren’t on here telling us about it.

If I was a betting man, I would bet they are exactly the same all the way down to the coating as well. Only difference is the name stamped on them.