1/4 drive - Koken vs Snap On.

[F-22]

Snap on tools are generally stiffer. You get used to moving your ratchet a certain amount, for a given load. It’s a Hooke’s Law thing. If you are working on airplanes, spending a lot of time with torque wrenches, you’re gonna feel the difference. If T-45 says he can feel the difference, I believe him.

I can not. Same socket from two completely different brands will not have enough flex to measure. Less so between Williams and Snap On sockets which are even geometrically the same.

as I recall,

I'm feeling rude for repeating myself - but as I recall, they're still the same.

 

[CHI_Tool&Die]

I can not. Same socket from two completely different brands will not have enough flex to measure. Less so between Williams and Snap On sockets which are even geometrically the same.


I'm feeling rude for repeating myself - but as I recall, they're still the same.

Don’t bother man. Some guys just want to watch it burn and throw stuff in the fire to make it grow. We’re talking sockets proven to be manufactured on the same line and they are throwing in Williams wrenches which aren’t the same design nor manufactured in the same facility. And they are going on about manufacturing stuff but, as someone with quite a few years in the industry from quoting to engineering to skilled trades, nothing stated by them jives with modern manufacturing processes. Not trying to be a d*ck to the posters but I just am done with it. Let them believe what they want and call it a day.

 

[scooby074]

TTC needs to do a socket test

 

[T45]

These are two 'clone' products, the Facom 440 and the MAC...they have loosely equal HRC as per TTC. Lets take a look at he box end performance, where everyone is using some kind of flank-drive type system.

Notice the Facom teeth are gripping fine...but the wrench handle is permanently bent ...now look at the MAC...its perfectly fine. They both "test" about the same, but they don't perform the same...

 

[T45]

Here's the results with Facom "winning" the test...

Torque to Failure...

Facom 324
MAC 312

 

[Boogerman]

…they are SLOPPY. Not a big deal in 3/8” drive, but a game changer in 1/4”.

Snap On, and I assume Koken, fit fasteners tightly and inspire confidence. For those of you who have never used these brands, 1/4” drive is a great place to start.

I felt Craftsman only made one set of 1/4” sockets and just marked them in inches or mm to build the sets. Very vague, ill fitting, with extensions so loose they were like wobbles. Should have been called ”wobble minus”.

My experience exactly. There's a substantial difference in how SO 1/4" drive work compared to any others I've owned. I have parallel sets of Snap-on and Proto in all drives except 3/4". I actually prefer Proto sockets in larger drives, but for 1/4", the SO are so much better in use that I use them exclusively. In 1/4", I also own Proto, Williams USA and SK, and have owned Wright, Craftsman, and numerous imports to compare. 1/4" I can notice a substantial difference in use, the others it's less apparent.

These tools are among the most used in my box.

 

[Dave455]

These are two 'clone' products, the Facom 440 and the MAC...they have loosely equal HRC as per TTC. Lets take a look at he box end performance, where everyone is using some kind of flank-drive type system.

Notice the Facom teeth are gripping fine...but the wrench handle is permanently bent ...now look at the MAC...its perfectly fine. They both "test" about the same, but they don't perform the same...

Sorry to be the one who says it, but those wrenches are not clones.

The Facom 440 (which is the wrench on test) looks like this.


The Mac wrench looks like this

Totally different tool.

Although it looks similar in style, it’s a clone of the Facom 440 XL - this one. These are longer wrenches, and as can be seen from the test, stronger!


A fair comparison would be the Mac vs the 440 XL, and I have no doubt they would end up about the same, as they are basically the same tool.

That’s not to say that I fundamentally disagree with any of the points you have made.

Facom and MAC are positioned at comparable levels in the market, differing only in the regions they are sold, and the method of sale, so one can reasonably expect to find comparable products - especially as both wrenches are outsourced!

Snap On and Williams are sold in the same region (U.S.A.) but I can’t help feeling there is more to account for the price difference than the method of sale. I own examples of both, but I leave my Williams on a vehicle where they are carried more than used.

Were they of identical performance, the Williams would be the deal of the decade, but I’m just not feeling it. Put a 1/4” drive, 12 point, Williams socket on an aerospace fastener and compare the “feel” to a Snap On. I’m not convinced they are the same, but I’d be delighted if they turned out to be so!

 

[drtyler]

These are two 'clone' products, the Facom 440 and the MAC...they have loosely equal HRC as per TTC. Lets take a look at he box end performance, where everyone is using some kind of flank-drive type system.

Notice the Facom teeth are gripping fine...but the wrench handle is permanently bent ...now look at the MAC...its perfectly fine. They both "test" about the same, but they don't perform the same...

The Facom 440.1/2 is a shorter wrench than the MAC Precision Torque, correct? I don't think they are clones.

 

[Boogerman]

The problem with our subjective comparisons (and with more objective tests) is that the sample size is discreet and random, and the manufacturers product varies with time, and with batches.

My 1/4" Snap-on sockets are from anywhere in the 1980's to present. My Williams are pre-Snap On; and others I've tried were from the early Snap-on acquisition time. The other brands used have been over 40+ years of use. So, my experience comparing brands is on entirely different manufacturing methods and materials potentially than someone elses. In general, materials and methods have improved, so companies that charge enough to take advantage of those improvements could have greatly increased the quality over a 40 year time. Or, as in the case of trademarks sold and being exploited to sell cheaper products, the quality could have gone down. In the case of Williams, I'd argue that the trademark got more prestige by going to a "Snap-on Industrial company".

Using the example earlier of worn broaches: You could get a worn broach Snap-on set to compare against a new broach Williams set. Or the opposite. And that would affect the test results. You could get variance in heat treat also, either way.

The safeguard against this is testing and quality control. Better brands have a more extensive testing regimen, and stricter quality control standards used as a pass/fail on the testing results. Some manufacturers test before branding their products, and marginal lots get lower quality brands instead of being discarded. Precision match .22 rf ammunition manufacturers do this routinely. Not saying Snap-on and Williams do. Just an example of how QC and testing results can be used.

Even if we get objective testing of currently manufactured products, those tests are only good for the lots tested and the time the products were produced. The process, materials, and QC tolerances could be changed at any time by the manufacturer.

The only good thing about anecdotal experience is that in general, the trend of a companies product can be subjectively analyzed over time, and a consensus of "better" can be arrived at. That is complicated by the different expectations and use levels of the people doing the reviews, so it's not a very good or precise way of determining quality.

 

[Fedwrench]

Wow, five pages on 1/4 drive sockets

Just buy both brands!!!

Seriously, Ko-Ken Zeal and Snap on shallows plus Zeal mid lengths. It's not rocket science. Hey if you need a 1/4 15mm, I don't think Ko-Ken makes one.

 

[Steve_P]

Funny how so many insist that SO and Williams can't be the same socket in this instance, less stamping- it's a fact that they're made on the same assy line. Then it's wrenches, 20 year old sockets, extensions.... WTF? This is about the SO and Williams USA metric 1/4" chrome sockets available TODAY. That's it.
Hardness is going to statistically vary by at least 6 points overall from the tolerance- it is not exact in something mass produced like a socket where you have hundreds of items in each basket, and then multiple baskets in the same oven and oil bath. The only way to do a comparison is statistical, ordering one socket of each brand every month over a period of years. Which no one is going to do. And either way, the SO fans will never admit it's the same as Williams since SO cost 3X as much. So, arguing this is pointless.

Edit- For some relative data, the hardness spec for a SAE Grade 8 fastener is Rc 33-39; Grade 5 is Rc 25-34; alloy steel USA SHCS is Rc 39-45; all for 1/2 diameter and smaller.

 

[T45]

The Facom 440.1/2 is a shorter wrench than the MAC Precision Torque, correct? I don't think they are clones.

The funny things is nobody bothers to actually read understand what they are looking at.

I gave this example because nobody here seems well versed in any of the empirical testing data on tools, and if they are, its a very shallwo grasp of what they are looking at.

The bigger problem with the example i gave isn't that the facom is shorter than the MAC...the problem is the test showed that the Facom won the test ! ... .

And furthermore, the Facom trounced the Snap-on...

 

[T45]

Hear are your results...just for fun.

Facom 324
MAC 312
Snap-on 279
Williams 256

Here's the data from the vid...


The

 

[drtyler]

The funny thing is I only called out your statement that the Mac and Facom are clones. They are not, or at least I don’t think they are due to differing lengths. So it would be expected that the test results are different.

You seem to be wrapped up with a “gotcha”.

The funny things is nobody bothers to actually read understand what they are looking at.

I gave this example because nobody here seems well versed in any of the empirical testing data on tools, and if they are, its a very shallwo grasp of what they are looking at.

The bigger problem with the example i gave isn't that the facom is shorter than the MAC...the problem is the test showed that the Facom won the test ! ... .

And furthermore, the Facom trounced the Snap-on...

 

[T45]

The funny thing is I only called out your statement that the Mac and Facom are clones. They are not, or at least I don’t think they are due to differing lengths. So it would be expected that the test results are different.

You seem to be wrapped up with a “gotcha”.

No, its not a "gotcha" its simply called "confounding expectations"...

Facoms are shorter and apprently less heavily built vs the MAC, but now they "won" the test

...How do you explain that?...

Well you have to look at what the test was testing, and how it was put together, and the different failure modes. How does everybody thing all this stuff is equal but not equal at the same time? Proto also out-performed BOTH...Facom and MAC, despite all thsi stuff being built on the same plant...and Proto uses mid-40s HRC steel, how does it outperform the MAC and the FACOM that are like 49-50 and made in the same factory?

Wright wrenches are also soft steel, but have tested very well. Same with Hazet, which are mid-40s. Nobody really calls Hazet junk, even though its sometimes like 10 HRC points lower than Snap-on.

All of these test need some fundamental understanding of what they are doing. Properly engineered tools are designed to work with a specific grade of steel and harndess of steel. Some tools are built to survice working on harded hardware, other tools are optimized to work on softer steels.

This particular test was done on junk hardware (coupling nuts). There's other tests done on hardened bolts, the results aren't going to be the same.

The point of all this stuff is that everyone that walks around saying "everything is eqaul" from all factories, for all applications, for every year of production, at all price poitns...The whole thing is delusional.

 

[Fedwrench]

This thread is about choosing a 1/4 drive socket set. It has nothing to do with MAC/FACOM/USAG wrenches.

Please prevent thread creep/wander by sticking to discussing 1/4 socket set Ko-Ken or Snap on choices.

Start a different thread if you want to talk about wrenches.

 

[T45]

This thread is about choosing a 1/4 drive socket set. It has nothing to do with MAC/FACOM/USAG wrenches.

Chaos is par for the course. Didn't you see "snap-on" in the thread title...

 

[2ndGearRubber]

This thread is about choosing a 1/4 drive socket set. It has nothing to do with MAC/FACOM/USAG wrenches.

Please prevent thread creep/wander by sticking to discussing 1/4 socket set Ko-Ken or Snap on choices.

Start a different thread if you want to talk about wrenches.

In fairness, I ended up buying Williams USA due to thread suggestions. But yeah, wrenches are wrenches not 1/4 sockets.

 

[Fedwrench]

In fairness, I ended up buying Williams USA due to thread suggestions. But yeah, wrenches are wrenches not 1/4 sockets.

That's perfectly fine. I'm happy you got something out of the thread. Let us know how the williams workout for you.

 

[Buckgnarly]

Wow, five pages on 1/4 drive sockets

Just buy both brands!!!

Seriously, Ko-Ken Zeal and Snap on shallows plus Zeal mid lengths. It's not rocket science. Hey if you need a 1/4 15mm, I don't think Ko-Ken makes one.

5 pages is my general rule, after 5 pages on this site threads become a "whose junk is bigger" contest. Not worth even looking after 5.....

 

[M635_Guy]

As much as I enjoy Project Farm, I'd lean to TTC as a better set of methodology and testing for wrenches. I don't find his ratchet tests useful at all.

None of those have anything to do with sockets...

 

[M635_Guy]

You either have no idea what you are talking about or who you are talking to LOL...

I don't either - who are you?

No seriously - who are you? I know the guys from Client Graphics and TTC hang around here sometimes - what am I missing?

 

[jptbay]

I saw Nepros mentioned once in this thread, but not really considered, so I checked the dimensions of a 10mm short 6-point for comparison.

Also included KTC(parent of Nepros), and Koken - including Zeal

Snapper YTMM10 - Height 22.2mm, Diameter 14.3mm, Broach depth 7.1mm
Nepros NB2-10 - Height 18.5mm, Diameter 13.4mm, Broach depth 5.5mm
KTC B2-10 - Height 18.5mm, Diameter 13.5mm, Broach depth 5.5mm
Koken 2400M-10 - Height 22.0mm, Diameter 14.3mm, Broach depth 7.7mm
Zeal 2400MZ-10 - Height 14.0mm, Diameter 13.5mm, Broach depth 7.0mm


Nepros, like Zeal, claim extremely close tolerance, tight fitting sockets. Similar fitment to Snap-on?

Nepros have a lower height than Snap-on. All the Snap-on sockets appear to be the same 22mm height. All others varied height.

Nepros are narrower than Snap-on.

All have relatively shallow broach depth.

I assume these are all top quality materials, and should wear well.

I own the Zeal set, and they are very nice, but as others have said, more of a special use socket, due to their compact nature.

I think the Nepros would likely be a fantastic choice for regular use, without the limitations of the Zeal's. I would also love to see how the fitment of the regular KTC sockets compared, as the dimensions listed are nearly identical.

Anyone with Nepros or KTC experience?

 

[F-22]

I have some Nepros sockets. Undoubtedly very high quality. But for the price, and if OP is located in the US... Nepros feels better suited for enthusiasts there. For similar money Snap On just has a way better warranty service and support. I'd say Nepros is very comparable or even slightly better (or prettier). For home use I'd rather have Nepros just cause it is extra special, but unless you're from Japan it isn't as practical.

And regarding the Williams thing... That really did turn into a "whose junk is bigger" contest. Adding videos of random Taiwanese wrenches in this discussion makes no sense to me.

 

[bpwoodworking]

Nepros isn't particularly hard to get here, DRPD sells it and gets it to you quickly. Not sure how often one is breaking or losing 1/4 drive sockets that it's a big deterrent to have to wait a couple days.

The OP already made a choice so it's already settled for him (now the rest of us can continue debating).

I checked some sockets this weekend, Stahlwille (1/4 drive) is a looser fit than Koken Z-eal (1/4 drive). I was surprised by that since Stahlwille is a pretty tight fit by comparison to most box store stuff. I haven't tested nepros yet, I have a ream of them in 3/8 I can check but with the understanding that the 1/4 drive may fit differently.

I like SO but for 1/3 the price, Koken Z-eal or Nepros were an easy choice. In fact one set of each could be had and still fall under the budget of SO. I'm thinking that Koken Z-eal and Nepros give up nothing in terms of quality.

 

[M6erfan]

I checked some sockets this weekend, Stahlwille (1/4 drive) is a looser fit than Koken Z-eal (1/4 drive). I was surprised by that since Stahlwille is a pretty tight fit by comparison to most box store stuff.

I'm not surprised at all that Z-eal sockets had a tighter fit in the fastener than Stahlwille. It's what Z-eal is specifically designed for.

 

[T45]

Height comparison.

Hazet - Height 25mm, Diameter 14.0mm, Broach depth 7.3 mm
Stahllwille - Height 23 mm, Diameter 14.3 mm, Broach Depth N/A
Snap-On YTMM10 - Height 22.2mm, Diameter 14.3mm, Broach depth 7.1mm
Koken 2400M-10 - Height 22.0mm, Diameter 14.3mm, Broach depth 7.7mm
Nepros NB2-10 - Height 18.5mm, Diameter 13.4mm, Broach depth 5.5mm
KTC B2-10 - Height 18.5mm, Diameter 13.5mm, Broach depth 5.5mm
Zeal 2400MZ-10 - Height 14.0mm, Diameter 13.5mm, Broach depth 7.0mm

 

[KnurledNut]

@2ndGearRubber
So what do you think of the sockets?

 

[AEAdam]

Not mentioned or I missed it…when the discussion of height comes up I get a little lost. Snap On heights are pretty low compared to most other sockets. When I need lower, it’s the ratchet that’s the problem or setting the socket on the fastener head such that a mm or 5 won’t make the difference.

In fact ( to my point), I really prefer mid depth sockets in both 1/4” and 3/8” drives to give me a little knuckle clearance, enough real estate to spin it with my fingers, etc. They are almost always the first tools I grab. Not sure how many makers even make semi deeps.

 

[CoronadoBruin]

Looking to upgrade my 1/4 drive sockets, deep and shallow. I have a blue-point set I bought roughly 10 years ago, have warrantied a few pieces, I think the fit could be better even when we're talking new sockets. Not sure if I've been unlucky but I've had a rash of rough condition 10 and 8mm fasteners lately and been struggling a bit with grip in 1/4 drive. My primary choices are Koken and Snap On.


Snap On runs about $580 plus tax, 5-15mm + 5.5.

Koken runs about $140 plus tax, 4-14mm + 5.5. However, I am cheap and like free/combined shipping, and will likely buy a 1/4 metric hex socket set for an additional $45 plus tax. I am counting this as an addition to the koken socket price, because I said "next time I buy koken I'm buying these bits".


So with either set, either the top or bottom of the 1/4 drive range will be topped-off with the blue point set. My experience with 1/4 drive koken has been pretty good, although they don't like the impact driver very much. Because these will pair with a set of semi-deep koken, that means most 1/4 drive sockets will be exposed to impact driver use. The snap-on definitely seem to hold up better on the little M12 hex driver, although I wouldn't say they're used often on it. I will also admit, I "neutral drop" my cordless ratchets, spinning them up to full speed then dropping them onto a fastener for additional torque/speed of removal. So I'm rough on tools.


My thought is buy the Koken, then replace with snap on as they wear out. IIRC the snap on sockets are 0.2mm shorter in shallow, 0.8mm longer in deep, so not the end of the world. With snap on, it's the easy button, done and done. But I'm cringing a bit at the price. I'm sure the blue-point would be worth something traded-in to snap on, maybe $50 bucks. Not a lot to sway the deal.

I have some Koken 3/8 shallows, not super impressed with how they're wearing. But the 1/4 zeal sockets have done me very well, as have the nut grip sockets. I use these for work, so I want something among the best of the best. Proto has been too chunky/tall in my previous experence in 3/8. I suppose I could buy just a few high-use sizes from either brand as well. Thoughts?

I have a very large selection of 1/4" drive sockets, both impact and chrome, and they're mostly Proto with the second largest number from KoKen (all metric, no SAE), and a fair number from other quality (domestic) manufacturers. Never had a problem with any of them, and wouldn't buy SnapOn even if I hit the lottery (I don't need the service of a truck brand, to say nothing of the exorbitant price, even with a lifetime no-questions-asked replacement). KoKen doesn't have a large SAE selection, but they are nice tools.

I use a 1/2" F to 1/4" M adapter from Apex (have several) on occasion so my 1/4" sockets have had some oomph behind them at times when using an impact wrench, and all have held up.

Though retired, most of my work is still impact, and I don't go easy on my tools, but I can only imagine the kind of work you do to wear out 1/4" drive sockets on a regular basis. Your "neutral drops" must be badass.

 

[2ndGearRubber]

@2ndGearRubber
So what do you think of the sockets?

Well, today all I used was the deep 12mm to unscrew a TPMS sensor. I had two wheel bearings to do by 9am. The finish is nice, they're what I expected.

Unfortunately I got a notice from ProToolWarehouse, saying they have no inventory, and the main hub has no inventory, so I guess I'm waiting on the shallows for the time being. "Estimated stock date" of next week, I don't put a ton of faith in those, but hopefully it's accurate.

I have a very large selection of 1/4" drive sockets, both impact and chrome, and they're mostly Proto with the second largest number from KoKen (all metric, no SAE), and a fair number from other quality (domestic) manufacturers. Never had a problem with any of them, and wouldn't buy SnapOn even if I hit the lottery (I don't need the service of a truck brand, to say nothing of the exorbitant price, even with a lifetime no-questions-asked replacement). KoKen doesn't have a large SAE selection, but they are nice tools.

I use a 1/2" F to 1/4" M adapter from Apex (have several) on occasion so my 1/4" sockets have had some oomph behind them at times when using an impact wrench, and all have held up.

Though retired, most of my work is still impact, and I don't go easy on my tools, but I can only imagine the kind of work you do to wear out 1/4" drive sockets on a regular basis. Your "neutral drops" must be badass.

I wouldn't say regular basis. 3/8 shallows and 1/2 swivel impacts I do beat on pretty hard. It's just a numbers game. X fasteners at torque applied Y creates a service life of Z.