12v lights

[ponyverts]

I'm planning a new 2800 sq. ft. garage and don't want to run 110v wiring to every light or light group. The garage will be metal with spray-in foam insulation, and I don't want to have to run conduit everywhere. I want to run just 12v wiring to the lights and have a central transformer and controller so that I can easily add lights or change configurations without more conduit and utilize 0-10v dimming. Has anyone done this?

 

[aandpdan]

Not sure of your budget but check out POE lighting. It's power over ethernet so all low voltage. Many options are out there.

 

[cybrdyke]

I'm not familiar with a manufacturer (a legitimate one) that makes 12V lighting with 0-10V controls, unless they are very small lights. I think you're going to find it much more difficult to do this than you are hoping for. There are reasons that the entirety of the industry uses 120/277V.
Good luck,
CD

 

[slow]

You will need much larger wiring for 12 volts vs 120 volts for voltage drop as well.

 

[Negen]

Many options if you use led lights but not sure about dimability

https://www.superbrightleds.com/mor...-panel-light-fixture-1ft-x-2ft-40w/2185/4862/

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[Zeke]

I looked into it and could not find a provision in the NEC that allows 12v lighting in Group R structures. As a primary or secondary lighting requirement. Certainly not primary from what I read. Optional lighting like pendant lights on a transformer are allowed.

Sounds like I'm contradicting myself but that's not my intent.

 

[ponyverts]

You will need much larger wiring for 12 volts vs 120 volts for voltage drop as well.

There are formulas for calcuating increased watt draw over 18awg wire. Typicall you figure 10%, but it can vary, so if you have 50w load, assume it's 60 up to 100 ft. One advantage is that you can get 6-strand cables, making the overall wiring job much simpler.

 

[ponyverts]

I'm not familiar with a manufacturer (a legitimate one) that makes 12V lighting with 0-10V controls, unless they are very small lights. I think you're going to find it much more difficult to do this than you are hoping for. There are reasons that the entirety of the industry uses 120/277V.
Good luck,
CD

I found some 0-10v 4' LEDs but not 12v. I'm thinking there's a reason why they're not made, even though it'd make sense.

 

[ponyverts]

I looked into it and could not find a provision in the NEC that allows 12v lighting in Group R structures. As a primary or secondary lighting requirement. Certainly not primary from what I read. Optional lighting like pendant lights on a transformer are allowed.

Sounds like I'm contradicting myself but that's not my intent.

NEC 411.2. Just requires a Class 2 transformer to limit the wattage on the circuit. Problem is that I still can't find fixtures, panels or controllers that would allow this.

 

[slow]

18 awg would get you 44 feet of distance on 12v 4.25amp with 10% voltage loss. 2800 sq ft shop, is what 52x52? Most likely a larger single dimension.

There seems to be 2 kinds of 0-10 volt systems. Systems that have power to the fixture with adjustable voltage and 0-10v is used for a dimming percentage in low current control, such as 1ma. This was used very early on for stage lighting. Most of those kind of systems went to a multiplexed system such as DMX512 30+ years ago.

I am all for creative solutions to problems, and have often done similar oddball setups. I see some benefits of doing a low voltage DC powered shop if you want to incorporate some solar or DC battery backup or off grid, but I haven't seen any products that do what you are looking for.

 

[sberry]

I am all for creativity but this is really a hard way to go, put some pipe in, do it a common way with common equipment and fixtures vs some rig up. I got a couple buds do shot like that, nobody wants it in the end.

 

[ponyverts]

2800 sq ft shop, is what 52x52?

2800 was a typo. 2300. It'll be mostly 25' deep for most of the length, divided into 4 separate sections: parking garage, workshop, lift garage, work garage. When I get the final plans, I'll post them. I know what I'm trying to do is unusual, but thought it worth researching.

 

[sberry]

The pipe and the wire is cheaper than the gadgets and lasts forever for the most part.

 

[Gotcha640]

I have a friend doing 12v emergency/mood lighting in his house. It's a new build, so he was able to run all the wires how he wanted, a home fabbed panel (3d printer/laser/snap in terminal blocks) and some sort of standard plugs at the ends (maybe just USB or similar, to be available long term).

For now he's doing a boat battery and a single solar panel, but the wiring will support a larger array.

He also built a Ford Transit into a camper, and wired that, so part of his plan is to be able to test parts and products and develop accessories for other van people, in the house at a real work bench.

When I asked about doing more "real" lighting and appliances, he said there were too many road blocks, and the 12v stuff is just for fun, and the basic functionality of the house needed to be traditional.

So, if the goal is to play 12v, and have Something Different, go for it. If the goal is to have a well lit shop to build things in, go traditional and get on with it.

 

[sberry]

That is a good assesment. I was in an old Airstream the other day. 8 track tape, all d 12v lights, all junk. A consumer inverter wasn't even a ********* when it was built. Someone here wanted to wire a trailer like that,,,,, why,,,, now use 120 led for line power and plug in to an invert for battery in the event it has to. Get rid of the 12v. They used 1056 lamps back in the day,,, ha

 

[sberry]

2300 ft is respectable. If a guy has wads and it's a hobby,, ok but I could find lots I really needed in a new place without adding spaghetti. Personally if occupancy is regular I like couple nite lights. I run 3 13 watt cfl, when they puke it will be led but really have mostly local lights and switches, area, can go in my office, get coffee, sit at puter etc all no management, no switch till I need it.

 

[nadogail]

13 watt 12o volt LED lights work fine and last a long time.

 

[u2slow]

Because I'm getting involved in the 24VDC LED emergency lighting system at work...

I would pick a voltage in the 24-48V range. You can cover longer runs with smaller wire.

If you do choose to put it on POE, the hardware capable of the higher voltages can deliver the most watts.

 

[Paul_The_Builder]

I don't see what you're really saving with 12V. You still have to run wires to all the lights.

You're pretty limited on 12V or even 24V as far as brightness goes. Even a 16ft 12V LED strip only has something like 15-20 watts of light output, the same as a single large LED bulb.

I can't imagine any scenarios where stringing up 12V lights on a 12V power supply is easier, cheaper, or better than running some Romex or MC 12/2 to some 4' LED fixtures or handful of edison screw bulb fixtures.

 

[ponyverts]

I don't see what you're really saving with 12V. You still have to run wires to all the lights.

You're pretty limited on 12V or even 24V as far as brightness goes. Even a 16ft 12V LED strip only has something like 15-20 watts of light output, the same as a single large LED bulb.

I can't imagine any scenarios where stringing up 12V lights on a 12V power supply is easier, cheaper, or better than running some Romex or MC 12/2 to some 4' LED fixtures or handful of edison screw bulb fixtures.

I'm saving the convenience of not having to install conduit everywhere I want a light fixture. I could get the daisy-chain type, but then I'd have to turn every light on when I need only a couple. I don't want to have to work with romex and conduit if I need to move or add a light. I ran into that in my current garage and house and the result is extension cords or bad lighting.

I've been doing a lot of reading up on PoE and this appears to do what I want. The only lines to the wall switches and fixtures will be a CAT6, and each line can handle up to 60w. There are even some battery powered wall switches that run wifi, so I can just mount a box, pop on the switch and wall plate and I have a new switch location.

Also reading up on automation with Arduino or Raspbery Pi.

 

[ponyverts]

Because I'm getting involved in the 24VDC LED emergency lighting system at work...

I would pick a voltage in the 24-48V range. You can cover longer runs with smaller wire.

If you do choose to put it on POE, the hardware capable of the higher voltages can deliver the most watts.

PoE is the plan now, based on my reading the past few days. Gives me the ease of wiring, dimming and flexibility I want, plus adds the ability to dabble with home automation.

 

[Paul_The_Builder]

Have you priced out PoE switches? You're looking at probably $1/watt of lighting, or more, just for the switch, not to mention the cost of the lights themselves.

If you don't want to run conduit, then don't run conduit. If you're afraid of the wire getting damaged, cat6 or low voltage wire gets damaged easier than THHN. I'd rather run romex stapled to joists than string a dozen cat6 runs all over the ceiling.

I'm not trying to be overly negative, but I'm not seeing the big advantage of PoE or other low voltage lighting over something like linkable 4' light strips where you only have to plug in the end of a strip and the rest of the lights plug into each other with no splicing or junction boxes or conduit.

PoE lighting is useful for creating difference scenes and whatnot for home theaters or restaurants, classrooms, etc, but I'm not seeing the big advantage of it in a shop/garage.

 

[ponyverts]

At this point, I'm thinking of building my own PoE lights. Tunable LED strings in aluminum tracks with diffusers. Only need to run 3 18/22 guage wires to each light from the dimmer/driver and that will be controlled by a wifi module, power supplied to module and light via a buck converter from PoE. This would mean that I can place the dimmer/driver anywhere, put a few in a closet or box, so I can access them if I need to reprogram. Ethernet would then only have to run to the box. If I need to add a light, need to only run a 3-strand wire from the box to the light. As for the wall switches, I'm looking at making them all TFT LCD and can even use a cheap tablet to control each room. Plan is still in progress.

 

[dogdog]

sounds to me a personal pet project than a regular garage light install ... might be messier or definitely more expensive with POE.

Most newer LED bulbs / panels are now Dim-able up to a certain point and compatible with regular triac type dimmers and it's UL or what not approved . Not sure why re-invented the wheel, unless it's your pet project of cause. Like others have said... DC voltage might needed bigger wire dependent on your current draws. At the end I doubt any gains.. other than it's fun then go for it. Build your drivers and custom controls with WIFI and ESP8266 or what nots. My Wifi Dimmer from Feit and outdoor relay block is build on top of ESP8266..

OTOH , there was a thread here about 2 years ago a guy build his garage lighting with switching power supply and a led tape wheels... and nicely done, maybe he can update you.

Post some pics would be fun to see how this one turned out.

**I think Ikea have some DC low voltage lighting stuff on track maybe take a look at their stuff and give you an idea.

 

[ponyverts]

Definitely not a typical garage lighting project, but I needed an indoor hobby for when I can't do sports activities, and this fits in with my software development background. I'll look for that post. PoE can now deliver 90W per cable run, but that spec is relatively recent. Equipment hasn't caught up. Prototype should be ready next month.

 

[sberry]

One of the benifit of conduit is you can add a wire, don't have to switch it all with 1. Almost every pipe I have ran up has 2 switched wires. Don't really have to move conduit, easy to add to.