14k 4 post bendpak problems

[NitroPress]

both runways are the power runway is not as bad. It seems to me that the new ramps are worse then the first set

My thought was that problems with the cables might be putting unusual pressure on the power runway and causing the bend, but if they're both bent, the static one moreso than the power one, it's a load problem, pure and simple. Whether it's an engineering/manufacture issue or something specific to your usage... I'll be interested to find out.

 

[dirttracker18]

Also interested to see the result of this. It would be nice to hear a Bendpak version as well. no shot at the OP but there are always 3 sides to the story.

I will (hopefully) soon be in the market for a 4 post lift and don't want to be concerned about my purchase afterwards.

Bendpak has done a good job replying to issues on this board so I hope they can make it right for you or at least explain why not.

 

[Joetomass]

well they are working on it right now but are also saying it is normal to flex.......
Really??????????????????????????????

 

[James E]

I could see this if the jacks were near the middle of the span, but within a couple feet of the cross-braces? It seems crazy that there's that much deflection--especially when we're talking about around half of the lift capacity.

 

[JSK]

(Sorry Ryan)



Joe,

There is a big difference between “lifted it without struggle” and lifting it safely. Clearly your 12K Forward lift was not ETL approved because the hydraulics enabled you to overload your lift - and by admitting you knew you were overloading your lift concerns me. ETL certification does not allow overloading.

We have been in communication with you before your formal complaint to the Automotive Lift Institute and then here on Garage Journal. You indicated that you had a local Hunter rep inspect the lift - probably the same Hunter rep trying to sell you one of their larger models.

Perhaps you’ve been burned in the past by other companies but this over the top route is not required for BendPak service. We may inquire and ask questions and maybe even raise our eyebrows when hearing your complaint but we have to. As in the case of your power unit not having enough power to raise a dump truck with a curb weight of 9462 lbs. Your quote…“i replace the electic motor from the old unit to the new one and its just as bad tried a 2005 f 450 and doing the same thing, so now i'm back to square 1, i attached so info i found online the curb weight of these truck is 7362 lbs without the dump body and the dump body weights roughly 2100 lbs for a total of 9462 lbs.” During testing, ETL officially recorded the working pressure of that lift to be 2350 PSI (using a calibrated pressure gauge) when loaded with a certified payload of 14,000 pounds. After we had you install a pressure gauge on your lift you continue to explain that your lift has trouble lifting less than 10,000 pounds even though your gauge is indicating a pressure of 2300 PSI. It raises our curiosity.

You have explained that a large portion of your business is catering to particular clients with large trucks. http://tomassiansauto.com/ You had originally inquired about our HD-18A as shown below. You must have realized that the wheelbase on our HD-18A was too short for your needs so you opted for our HDS-14LSXE 14K super long model. Maybe you thought it would be like your old non-certified lifts and that you could simply overload it on “rare” occasions.

The images you provided (with the rolling jack behind the front turn plate and just aft of the rear slip plates) indicate that that van (curious as to the type of van and the actual weight including the stuff inside) has a wheelbase of about 138”. Although the images give the illusion that the load points are in close proximity to the cross tubes, they are not. A heavy, short wheelbase vehicle on extended runways will cause deflection (not bending) just as the deck of a 52’ flatbed truck will deflect when loaded with goods.

We have extended our offer of giving you 100% of your money back or removing and giving you full credit towards the purchase of one of our truck alignment models. We even offered to cover all labor. We think the offer is quite fair - you say not good enough. Joe, we simply cannot offer our truck model with no additional expense or offer additional compensation to fill the gap of the Hunter truck model. We’ll stay in communication. Hopefully we can find some resolution soon.

Jeff

 

[pattenp]

Well.. my comment from the peanut gallery. I think Bendpak is stepping up to the plate and making a very fair offer to make things right.

 

[rburke65]

Sounds to me as if that is an extremely fair offer from the folks at Bend Pak.

 

[Joetomass]

well Jeff thanks for working with me and to gary as well, first think my 12k forward just looking at it was a more solid steel lift i understand it not cert. but its rated at 12k it lifted 12k. As far as the hunter Guy was there tech not a sales rep, and the reason i got him involved was Bendpak couldnt get anyone out in a timely manner, and one installer told me bendpak doesnt pay him enough to come out here its to far maybe 15-20 miles, and when i spoke to bendpak everyone was busy so i got the hunter tech to check level,as far as the van thats on it in the pictures it is a 1500 series chevy express van and i sent it to be weighed today and its under 7k and i did what i was told center it on the lift.
I even just sent gary pictures of a chevy astro van that is empty nothing at all in it and its doing the same thing,( but not as bad) I not looking for anything free i just want it right, i paid for a lift that cant do what it says it can. is it bendpak, the lift,the metal? I dont know all i know it should not do this and if so i would like to see something on paper certified that this is exceptable.I will be in contact with gary
thank you Jeff for you help
Joe

 

[dirttracker18]

Sounds like a fair offer. Good to see Jeff step up again. One of the reasons I want a Bendpak is the ability to speak to a VP if necessary.

 

[Al Bundy]

Sounds like a very reasonable offer. Especially if there's the possibility that the lift was misused.

 

[Joetomass]

Well just to let you know it was not misused unless it's misprinted on weight I bought a 14k lift last time I checked that's what the load rating is. So just to clear this up incase no one understands 2nd grade math a lift rated at 14 and a truck that weights 10 means the lift is able to lift it. I will post pics of the lift bending with a Chevy Astro van so then let's see what everyone thinks. I spoke with 10 differnt shop owners ( not the weekend mechanic) that use there lift day in and day out and we checked all there lifts and no flex, or bending on there lift. I want to see something on paper certified that 1 1/4 inch BEND is normalI. This Astro van is only the second vehicle on the lift since the runways were replaced the first one was a Chevy 1500 van and the bendpak certified installers where there to see it. I alsO send the van to be weight and it 6887 so is that over weight too??????
Back to math class
Oh yeah do you think replacing the pressure relief valve with a higher pressure valve if a lift calls for one with 2300psi and bendpak sends you that they say is higher, a correct fix or a patch to a problem think about it

 

[NitroPress]

There's something seriously wrong here. I wish I could figure out what it is.

 

[Joetomass]

Oh yea Jeff you had mentioned about my old lift "lifting it safe" so is bending runways safe????? And rolling jacks flexing back and forth when using the safe. And adding a higher pressure valve safe??? Just wondering

 

[Joetomass]

I agree nitro, something is wrong and I want to know why? I'm looking into getting an engineer involved to help assist

 

[Marmaduke]

I would take the F450 with dump box to the weigh scale to get a accurate measurement of what your lifting.

 

[dirttracker18]

I would take the F450 with dump box to the weigh scale to get a accurate measurement of what your lifting.

I would like to hear the actual weight as well.

The OPs weights seem very low. Considering we scaled my buddies F350 the other day and it came in at 9000 #. He does not use it for work so there are no tools or other things to weigh it down. I have to think an F450 would be heavier plus a 2300 # dump box and hydraulics.

Agree with Nitro, something is not adding up here (pun intended )

If I may be blunt without being a jerk. There may be some communication issues here as your grammar is weak to say the the least. ONce again not starting a fight or picking on you but more often than not a communication break down only makes a problem worse.

 

[jhelrey]

I am wondering if the posts are not level and it is binding towards the top and bending in...

 

[c39er]

I would think any 14,000lb lift that was in any shop should safely handle most any 1/2 through 1 ton trucks easily and safely with out having to carefully position the vehicle on the runways to prevent bending no matter how long they are. The sales info advertises that it will lift 14,000lbs-thats what it should do and as long as it is NOT overloaded- The hydraulics should give out -Bypass fluid, before the structure bends. A lift should safely lift the load without any excessive flexing and no bending. .The operator is just an operator and if he understands the operation and care of the lift and he uses it as so it better do the job. The equipment manufacturer must know that sometimes a piece of machinery will be over worked once in a while or by accident yet it should be able to handle it. Today I think a lot of things are built to very minimum standards with no extra safety built in. Cost savings. Poor steel quality.
This situation could be one of these.
I don't think many shops have this bending situation happen as long as the vehicle weight is with in the rating of the lift. Maybe the EL runways need to be built stronger and heavier to prevent any bending.Was this failure caused by a vehicle that was not carefully positioned on the runways because of WB length and was only 500lbs under the max lift load rating? We need to know.The OP's truck weights need to be known!

 

[dirttracker18]

I would think any 14,000lb lift that was in any shop should safely handle most any 1/2 through 1 ton trucks easily and safely with out having to carefully position the vehicle on the runways to prevent bending no matter how long they are. The sales info advertises that it will lift 14,000lbs-thats what it should do and as long as it is NOT overloaded- The hydraulics should give out -Bypass fluid, before the structure bends. A lift should safely lift the load without any excessive flexing and no bending.

An F450 is more than a 1 ton. The F350 would be the 1 ton.

Just saying . . .

 

[Joetomass]

Hey No one is going to hurt my feels on here, i know what i have and whats going on, the f-450 was put on a scale and is 10,921 so what more can i do. if that truck bent the ramps why is the new set of ramps bending with a chevy astro van on it??? that was the 2nd truck put on the lift after the new runways, and the first was a chevy 1500 express van, witch i already stated if you can read the other posts, an as far as grammer well i dont have time to sit here and get formal im just getting a point across. and yes the posts are level i checked them 3 times, a hunter TECH check them 2 times and bendpaks installers check them when they put the runways in.
And this is not the way i am comunicating with bendpak i am doing that via email, so this all started to see if anyone else had a problem, so get your facts straight before putting your 2 cents in about comunication problems, post your facts about the problem.

 

[dirttracker18]

My apologies, I was not trying to be an ***.

I just wanted to say that sometimes communication issues can add to the problem. Via email would mean the same type of writting and sometimes you're a little hard to follow, requiring a few reads to fully understand what you are saying. I meant no shots at you personally, just an observation that may be hindering the conversation.

So the dump truck scaled at under 11 000# which is well below the rating so that is certainly not an issue there.

I too am a little concerned with the deflection on an alignment hoist. I can understand their argument that deflection is expected (ie flat deck hauler) but how do you get good alignment numbers on a rack? Would that deflection change anything? None of your other lifts show any delfection with the same vehicle?

 

[Joetomass]

hey look no apologies needed, off the grammer part no the truck is not to heavy. I know that, I did put it on other 4 posts (different shops) a hunter 18k no problem, a mohawk 19k no problem, a challenger 15k no problem and a 12k rotary nothing there either. yes to me they tool a 14k lift and lenghten it and didnt renforce anything. as far as the flat deck truck yes it might move but these ramps are not flat they are channel steel witch is stronger but not strong enough. We have a alignment shop in the area and he been doing this for 55 years and he agrees how can you make something straight if its on a uneven piece of metal. Example: if your staightening a piece of metal on a bend surface will you piece end up staight? My thinking that this lift Not saying Bendpak But this model lift has a problem. its to long for the size steel used, or i got that 1 bad apple.

 

[c39er]

An F450 is more than a 1 ton. The F350 would be the 1 ton.

Just saying . . .

Yes, I know that the F450 is is a heavier truck. I would assume several people on this board have lifted F350's, dually pick ups and SWB FB's on the HD9's. If they are I think maybe the HD14 should be able to lift a F450 with out any extra heavy accessories.
The HD14 should handle any 2500 van or PU. It should handle a fully loaded astro van too.

 

[Marmaduke]

According to Cars.com the gross vehicle rating GVR for a 2012 f 450 is 13,330 lbs although the front axle is rated at 6000 lbs and rear axle rated at 9000 lbs. Still a way under 150% tested rating of the hoist.
Thats fully loaded, the OP said it was empty I think.

 

[dirttracker18]

According to Cars.com the gross vehicle rating GVR for a 2012 f 450 is 13,330 lbs although the front axle is rated at 6000 lbs and rear axle rated at 9000 lbs. Still a way under 150% tested rating of the hoist.
Thats fully loaded, the OP said it was empty I think.

Empty but with a 2300# dump box on it. Subtract a normal box and add in the dump box plus hydraulics and oil.

Sounds way over but he scaled it and it was under.

 

[Joetomass]

gvw IS fully loaded not curb weight. gvw is what it weights plus what it can handle, curb weight is empty no tools nothing at all in it, add it up
13,000pound gvw
10,000 pounds curb weight
3,000 witch is what it can handle bigger then a 350 (1 ton) about a 1 1/2 ton truck
Trust me i did alot of homework on this my uncle works at a ford plant and i spoke with engineers there about the gvw to Curb weight of trucks.
also my local ford deal has a 14k rotary and they use it for 450s all day long. fyi

 

[ket-tek]

Joe emailed me a few more pics to post for him. Here they are:

 

[Spam16v]

I've been in a ton of dealers, and a lot of shops, all over the country. The only place I've seen Bendpak lifts are in homeowners garages, on this forum.

 

[ket-tek]

I've been in a ton of dealers, and a lot of shops, all over the country. The only place I've seen Bendpak lifts are in homeowners garages, on this forum.

What state are you in? I've seen dozens and dozens of shops all over VA, NC, SC, and MD that have bendpak 2's, 4's, and alignment racks. I've seen them in Tuffy's and Meineke's and other chains locally, and there was a rig repair shop I saw outside of Richmond, VA a while back that had a monster HDS-35 or HDS-40 four post in there.

 

[NitroPress]

That bottom picture bothers me. It looks an awful lot like the scissor jack is being used to raise the vehicle... from near the center of the load. If you lift a vehicle anywhere inside the wheelbase, the load effectively gains that shorter wheelbase, which greatly reduces the load capacity.

In the simplest terms, if you were to lift a 9,000 pound vehicle with the minimum wheelbase BP allows for that weight, and then balance the vehicle on a centered scissor jack, you'd be putting all that weight on an effective 0-12 inch wheelbase - way too much of a concentrated load. More realistically, if you're lifting a 10-11k load and then you "shorten the wheelbase" as much as the pic appears to show, you're going to concentrate the load near the center of the wheelbase... *creeeeeaaaak*

I suspect we've located the cause of the mysterious bending.

 

[c39er]

Rolling jacks need to go where they need to go in a every day lets get this job done pro shop kind of situation. The jack locations look normal-near the rear end and behind the front wheels-typical. The truck is a every day type of vehicle anyone would get on the lift and jack it up. It's not a questional weight super heavy F-450 dump truck.
The BP ad for this lift assures the buyer.... It's the back bone of your shop. It can handle those tough jobs. I would trust that advertising from BP. I think possibly the step down area is the weak area and caused the failure. JMO of course.
Possibly the runway permanently bending is because of poor quality steel and maybe too thin or design and engineering issues. This assuming the lift was NOT OVER LOADED or abused in any way. This lift seems like it is kinda aimed at the pro shops by the advertising BP does on it.
Why did it bend?

 

[ishiboo]

That bottom picture bothers me. It looks an awful lot like the scissor jack is being used to raise the vehicle... from near the center of the load. If you lift a vehicle anywhere inside the wheelbase, the load effectively gains that shorter wheelbase, which greatly reduces the load capacity.

In the simplest terms, if you were to lift a 9,000 pound vehicle with the minimum wheelbase BP allows for that weight, and then balance the vehicle on a centered scissor jack, you'd be putting all that weight on an effective 0-12 inch wheelbase - way too much of a concentrated load. More realistically, if you're lifting a 10-11k load and then you "shorten the wheelbase" as much as the pic appears to show, you're going to concentrate the load near the center of the wheelbase... *creeeeeaaaak*

I suspect we've located the cause of the mysterious bending.

It appears based on photos that each jack is positioned under the axle, or in the front at the front suspension. Seems like a logical jacking point.

However, a 14k lift also has its limitations... as was mentioned before, a different wheelbase changes the lifting capacity of the lift. Would you expect it to lift a 14k point load on one ramp?

An Astrovan has a 110" wheelbase. The 14,000 lb lift is only rated for 7,000 lbs at 110"... half its rating! BUT... Unless it's HEAVILY loaded, that should easily be under its current weight even if loaded with tools. I'm not sure that much deflection in that long of a lift is unsafe, though some may find it unreasonable. I'm curious what the lift looks like unloaded though.

It appears the shortest F450 would be right at minimum wheelbase required for full weight capacity. The jacks, if used inboard of the axles, could make the lift overloaded.

My guess its a combination of the lift being used to nearly its rated capacity based on the wheelbase/jack combination, and a lift which attempts to meet a price point. It's not bending to the point of failure, like a floor joist or as he mentioned a flatbed semi... they all deflect under any load, towards their maximum they will deflect the most. Above their maximum they will continue to deflect beyond the rated load before failing.

The ramps, on the other hand, seemed to be designed a bit light. Again, you wouldn't expect them to take a 14k point load, but most 14k vehicles should be able to drive up without putting a permanent bend in the ramp.

I think theres blame to go around here.

 

[Joetomass]

the van is jacked up on the rear diff. and on the front control arms where 95% of the time all vehicles are jacked up from, Next bendpak states center the load witch it is, let me remind you this astro van had NOTHING in it NOTHING at all i was just purchased and we lettered it and were servicing it. Now if i had to perform an alignment the van would have to go all the way forward, so then what do i do. Well maybe i can service a civic on these lift. I agree with spam16 im in pa and i traveled to NJ ,Del and never saw a bendpak in a dealer or any medium to large shop, and bendpak says there product should be a shops backbone, Well i own a 5 bay shop and its far from it, its more like that car that haunts you and doesnt want to leave your shop ( shop owners know what im mean) it sits in my bay doing nothing but costing me money.
I looked at rotary, hunter, Mohawk,challenger, and i cant find anywhere that there lifts say 7000 front 7000 rear, my old forward def. didnt say that. Does any else know is benpak the only company that states that or not I cant find it anywhere. Forget overload and forget that f-450 for a min. that was talked about and i tell you why, Friday the new runways were installed and there where 2 vans on the new runways the chevy 1500 and that astro van so what bent these ramps and the new ramps seem to be worst then the first. so forget the f-450 and overloaded for now. If this lift cant handle a 1500 and a astro van it should be sold or made period. that would mean i need a 30k lift to lift a 450. and yes the ramps are about 1/4 inch without a load.
How many guys on here own shops and have a bendpak lift and how many have them at there home garage. bet the homeowner takes the cake.

 

[Joetomass]

hey nitro i like your quote if you cant do it right dont do it at all we have enough junk in this county I have something in mind

 

[c39er]

I read through all my 5 year old Rotary SMO12,000lb extended length 4 post lift manuals and ALI papers to see about specific positioning of different wheel base vehicles. I could find no restrictions on vehicle WB or on the rolling jack limitation use on the extra long runways.
Hmmm..

 

[Joetomass]

Agree I been online for 2 days looking only place I see that listed in bendpak
Except for 2 post lifts witch must be load centered
Now it makes alittle sence why no other 4 post seems to do this
Hey c39r do your rotary flex like this with a load?

 

[Joetomass]

One think I forgot to say the bendpak runways are made of flat metal that's bent to make a u Channel. So back to that flat deck truck thing flat metal will bent easier then say a I beam constructed lift. Mohawk uses 2, 8" I beams with metal plate welded on top and cross braces underneath, my old forward was the same except not as large of I beams. Not to familer with other brands but I know it's very hard to bend an I beam and very easy to bend flat plate and the bendpak has no crossbraces underneath but. The power runway has some crossbraces in it to help hold the cylinder in place that's why that ramp doesnt move as much if you look under ur bendpak you should be able to see what I mean

 

[c39er]

None of my lifts flex.

 

[uncleaud]

I've got a 10k Atlas that does the same. Not to that extreme but the same. It has never had anything on it but a 2800lb half finished t-bird. With that said lets apply some physics 101 to the situation. The majority of the load is along the inside rails of the lift. Mine and most of the market it comprised of 3/16 + or - plate edges that are formed on a brake. So in essence we are loading a 3/16 inch angle iron that is spaning approximatly 14 + or - ft. from post to post. Doesn't take much to make that flex. Puts a lot of torque across the ramps. Not saying its right but it's not rocket science as to why it happens. Course I don't have an engineers stamp with my name so its just an opinion

 

[James E]

Yeah, I'm surprised that at the 14k, commercial level, these rails aren't at least partially boxed.