Between 705 & 1200 SQ/FT 2 car + detached build

[billconner]

Well, found GJ in researching for building on our property. Want to turn minimum size attached 2 car I to a studio for my wife - glass chimes - and not be so crowded with outdoor stuff and canoe fleet. Really want to be able to open car doors all to the way.

So after looking at 28 x 28 up to 30 x 40, and everything from stick built to VersaTube, with a lot of post frames mixed in, settling on a 28 (gable end) x 36 post frame and leaning towards Hansen. I was at 30 x 32 but 28 x at least 32 seems smarter and with Hansen's post and truss spacing at 12', 36 seemed logical. I will go back to DIY pole buildings and compare, but don't like their 4' truss and 8' pole spacing as much as I like Hansen's. Of four companies contacted, these are the only two who respond.

Will probably use their metal roof but will look at shearing and shingles - my own comfort level - and will use local mill for rough cut pine for board and batten siding, with barn sash and relocate existing 10 x 8 overhead doors. May do something different for gable siding - shakes or claps or something. Leaning toward the wet set SturdiWall rather than embedding - feels easier for me to layout perfectly plus I can start that early while waiting for 12 weeks or so for kit. Thinking Bigfoot footing forms and Sonotube, mixing and pouring and setting one bracket at a time.

I did really want to stick frame with rough sawn lumber from local mill but don't think building dept will accept ungraded lumber for structure. Tempting at $0.45/bf. And it smells so good. Would have gone with conventional spread footer and stem wall but would dry lay block stem wall, surface bond, and for insurance fully grout and reinforce. Actually mason contractor said skip the surface bonding and just grout. Maybe if building inspector allows......

I was tempted by VersaTube except really do not like 3:12 pitch, no options. Planning 6:12 to more closely match house and neighborhood.

Maybe yet this year or maybe spring, not sure how it will play out. Gravel floor to begin, maybe slab later. Do as much as I can myself, maybe a week from my son, and hire if I need help. Pretty sure I'll have to hire a crane to set trusses but only 6 - 2 single gable ends and 2 pairs at third points.

 

[BlakeTheCarGuy]

 

[billconner]

I'll try to figure that out. Just two different plans at the moment. pdfs.

 

[vavet]

I'm not sure where you live or how much of a priority it is for you to actually park your cars in a garage. If you like parking in the garage or think you might have an EV in the future and want to be able to park inside to charge it, then I'd seriously look at making it a bit bigger. 28x36 is going to fill up fast if you're actually trying to park cars in there.
You're converting the attached garage, so you're loosing that space for lawn equipment, bicycles, etc. Do you have any other building - sheds or barns?
If you don't care about parking in the garage (many people don't, but I do) then 28x36 is a decent space to do a lot of hobby work.

 

[billconner]

No hobby work, just storage - 2 cars, canoes, and basic yard tools - no mowers or other machinery, just shovels, rakes, etc. Will definitely plan for charging 2 evs in the future - next owner or later if not us.

In this snowy and cold winter country, we like cars under cover in winter.

Struggling with urge to stick build using local rough sawn. Substantially less expensive plus I can pick up every piece, compared to trusses and posts. I would simply enjoy the building more. It won't be easy to get it permitted.

Thank you for thoughts.

 

[billconner]

Worked through three designs: post frame, stick built with rafters and structural ridge, stick built with graded sawn lumber and residential trusses. All three with rough sawn pine board and batten siding. Both stick built a with rough sawn pine roof sheathing and asphalt shingles vs post frame metal roof. A bit of a surprise, but post frame was more expensive by a lot - almost double. I assume the shop labor for the post frame - a complete kit - is a lot compared to no labor for stick build. And just the sealed drawings cost compared to none for stick built per prescriptive IRC.

Working on foundation options. I can't determine extent and costs of a SFPF but tempted to just do a block stem wall. Both stick built options would be well served with 2 courses of block above slab for required clear height of 9'-3" for 8' overhead doors I'm reusing.

Trying to figure out what a fully grouted masonry footer is per IRC R403.1 "All exterior walls shall be supported on continuous solid or fully grouted masonry or concrete footings, crushed stone footings, wood foundations, or other approved structural systems that shall be of sufficient design to accommodate all loads..."

I think I can dry lay 12" bond beam blocks on gravel, stack 8" block on it, surface bond, and grout them at same time as grouting the stem wall.

 

[j p smith]

where are you located? pictures would help alot

 

[billconner]

On the St Lawrence Seaway. 60 psf snow load. I'll snap a photo of site tomorrow but scrub brush and white pines yet, but pretty level. Sandy loam, with very good drainage. I have no concerns about frost heave, just satisfying inspector for least cost.

All the economic questions end up so subject to specifics, like do you have a back hoe and are you paying labor or not? Being retired and enjoying building also tilts the decision making.

And I'll attempt posting plans tomorrow.

 

[billconner]

OK First time attaching files here. Three different construction systems for basically same building. This is the post frame approach I began with. Pretty straight forward based on Hansen Buildings except rough sawn pine board and batten siding and trim and my doors and windows.

 

[billconner]

That seems to work. Was not sure multi page pdf would be viewable. This is what I call the "rafter" design. I had just built a "box" for my utility trailer with rough sawn pine - Amish farm a few miles away - and wanted to see if it would work. Still least expensive, $0.50 bf, materials nearby, and I think I can lift every piece. Not sure I can get permit. I tried this with footing and stem wall but thickened edge slab - SFPF - is an option.

 

[billconner]

A pragmatic approach - go to local lumberyard (still a family owned regional chain in this north country) and order ordinary stampd no. 2 sawn lumber and trusses. Might look at rafters and structural ridge beam and column but even though setting trusses solo might not work, otherwise simple. Also will look might swap to spread footing and stem wall to delay expense of slab.

 

[billconner]

Photo of where garage goes - this view looking at gable end with garage doors.

 

[billconner]

At the point of trying to focus on site and wondered how close to existing trees I should build. We'd like to remove as few as possible, so will begin soon with stakes and strings. I was thinking 6' from walls, 5' from eave. Don't plan on gutters. Only one or two trees that close. I can always cut after also if it's a problem. All white pines maybe 5 to 12 inch diameter.

 

[billconner]

Brush clear and property lines identified. Trial layout - just corners and string. Will check grades this week. Marked out 28 x 36 and then added a second line for 30 x 36.

 

[billconner]

First, to keep it together, a side thread on site work: Thread 'post frame in a slope and added skid steer help!' https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/post-frame-in-a-slope-and-added-skid-steer-help.486385/

 

[billconner]

And so I finally meet with building department. I had more or less decided to go post frame. A significant factor was the cost for a foundation for stick frame, either footings at 48" down and stem wall, or a shallow frost protected foundation with a boatload of foam - continuous to 4' outside walls. I also had been led to believe (by other code officials and ICC staff) code did not require a slab in an unheated post frame building to be frost protected.

First, very much against post frame. It won't last and besides raccoons and squirrels and all sorts of vermin will move in. Second, you don't need but a little loam for frost protection - just the outside of 1' thickened slab and then 2' horizontal. Third, a slab in post frame or any unheated building must be frost protected. All together it makes post frame undesirable and not less expensive. Last, he said fine to ungraded rough sawn lumber, something I didn't expect, though cautioned it shrinks and us also more porous than milled and planed lumber.

Back to the drawing board. I must say I'm very attracted to edge thickened slab with a very little bit of foam and an all rough sawn building. It would mean 1 or 2 columns under ridge if ALL rough sawn, so might transition to trusses for roof structure. Still, look and smell and feel of all rough sawn....not to mention low cost....is attractive to me.

Or go back to post frame. Planned on starting build in March so got time.

 

[billconner]

Met with an architect. He's a local one person office and who the building department turns to for assistance sometimes. I'd confused myself by looking at so many alternatives, but architect gave me the confidence to build shallow stem walls, slab on ground floor, and stick frame and rafters with rough sawn. It probably means two columns on centerline to support a beam and ceiling joists to tie walls together, but affords opportunity for loft storage if I bump from 5:12 to 6:12 or 7:12 pitch. All rough sawn 1 by sheathing, 1 by board and batten siding over 15 pound felt, and barn sash windows framed on site.

The shallow frost protected foundation approach is quite interesting in IRC "R403.1.4.1 Frost protection" provisions, specifically number 3. "Constructed in accordance with ASCE 32." permits the following:

ASCE32-1: 4.2 FOUNDATIONS ON NON–FROST SUSCEPTIBLE GROUND OR FILL MATERIAL
Foundations placed on a layer of well-drained, undisturbed ground or fill material that is not susceptible to frost shall have the thickness of such a layer included in meeting the design frost depth defined in Section 3.2. Undisturbed granular soils or fill material with less than 6% of mass passing a #200 (0.074 mm) mesh sieve in accordance with ASTM D422 and other approved non–frost-susceptible materials shall be considered non–frost-susceptible. Classification of frost susceptibility of soil shall be determined by a soils or geotechnical engineer, unless otherwise approved.

I believe this means I collect a sample - 3-4 gallons in a 5 gallon pail from 36 to 42" below grade - and deliver to testing laboratory who employ geotechnical engineers. I have confidence it will meet the <6% requirement.

Looking at a minimum 12" deep footer using 12" bond beam blocks on 4 or so inches of pea gravel, and a stem wall varying from 3 to 6 courses of 8" CMU as it's cut into gentle slope. Rebar in bond beam and verticals with grout every 4' or less. I may fully grout all the block, which I plan to dry lay and surface bond. Happy architect was able to save me near $2000 in foam and/or deeper footings.

Its nice to narrow direction and feel like I'm moving forward again, though I have been preparing site so not standing still. I look forward to the rough sawn and being able to lift every piece though I'm sure the 2 x 12 rafters won't be easy - probably in the 60 to 80 pound range.

 

[billconner]

8 months since last post and another 2 since I started and I have a "final" plan and a permit! I'll try to post plan tomorrow but kind of excitited to see a sign of progress. Excavation contractor - hopefully my only contractor - is on line and ready. Order block and masonry supplies. Order rough sawn from Amish family. Hopefully complete by time snow flies. Sounds simple.

 

[billconner]

Today's foundation progress with the ruble trench.

 

[billconner]

Finished rubble trench foundation. Learned a lot and next one will be much easier. Didn't spend enough time with excavator contractor in advance, coupled with neither of us having done one prior. Kind of a wash dollar wise but could save. Next time.

 

[captain14]

I’ll follow your build.

 

[billconner]

Thank you! Next up is block stem walls.

 

[Riley]

Looks like a great project! Appreciate the details of your thought process in figuring out which build format to use.

 

[billconner]

Thank you. I plan to post "final" set of plans as soon as I can (as, I see, I said above.) Not quite the house build in retirement I dreamed of but enjoying it.

 

[billconner]

Bought blocks and related materials. Still need to check my masonry tools - not unpacked since moving in 2019 - and see what I'm missing. A wire tie tool for sure, maybe a finishing trowel.

 

[billconner]

Masonry delivered yesterday morning. Started distributing blocks. Working on making layout lines, etc. a little more user friendly.

 

[billconner]

Carrying 12" block in the sun is just plain hard. 68 of 90 moved. I planned a month for block work and at the moment, I think I can do better than that. Still haven't squared up first course exactly but pretty close.

Learned how to knock out the knock out portion of knock out bond beam blocks. Could not find it on internet. Strike the corners neat the cuts, an NOT THE CENTER OF THE WEB. Striking center of the web is much more likely to split the whole block into nearly useless pieces. Since these are buried, I can figure out how to hold the halves in place while grouting, but won't be pretty.

 

[billconner]

Footer forms in. About 5/16" difference in diagonals between outside corners. Think I can live with that. A little more touch up and onto rebar. I learned masonry in a few days, hopefully bending rebar will be easier and less strenuous.

 

[billconner]

My plans, with latest revision - windows and doors.

 

[billconner]

Thought I'd do an index of other detail specific threads I started on this build. I'll update if I start other threads on this.

feeder and ufer: https://www.garagejournal.com/forum...r-another-thread-on-ufers-and-feeders.499627/

concrete tools: https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/concrete-tools.499190/

concrete recipies:

Concrete recipes

I decided to mix my own concrete. Footer is: 1 - 3 - 6 or 1 - 2 - 4. But struggling with grout for core filling blocks. I was looking at coarse but may use fine. My quandary is what type of sand. Two quarries offer just "sand" but third offers: BANK RUN SAND • FILTER BED SAND • MASON SAND •...

www.garagejournal.com

rubble trench foundation:

rubble trench foundation

Anyone here ever built a frame building on a rubble trench foundation? I have no seismic or wind issues. Seems simpler - and less expensive - than 4' deep footing and stem wall. fwiw seems like a separate forum here for foundations, slabs, retaining walls, etc. would make sense.

www.garagejournal.com

daylight drain termination:

daylight drain termination

Looking for suggestions on how to finish these two 4" drains. (1 perforated foundation and 1 solid for roof drains)

www.garagejournal.com

angle grinder:

angle grinder

Planning to purchase a 4 1/2" angle grinder for cutting both rebar and block with appropriate blades. I don't need cordless, and have a good compressor so pneumatic is an option as well as corded electric. A couple of projects. A lifetime everyday tool I'd definitely not required. Have to...

www.garagejournal.com

roofing question:

quick roofing question

Using composition shingles on an unheated building, is the ice and water shield at eaves necessary? Doesn't seem to be to me with no ice dams. 1:6 pitch.

www.garagejournal.com

 

[billconner]

Footer, atop rubble filled trench, in process. I couldn't get the bond beam blocks close enough to level. If doing over I might just use stones and mortar, or have layered several inches of pea gravel and gotten blocks level. Not easiest but can't think of a less expensive approach.

 

[billconner]

Finished footing and got all corner and end blocks set and level on footing. Hopefully get stretchers bedded tomorrow, then dry stack the rest of the blocks in a day or two. Progress.

 

[billconner]

I got the base course of blocks partially bedded, all the corners jambs, and rechecked dimensions. The length and width are within an 1/8" and the diagonals are dead equal. Another week to 10 days and lumber shows up. Should be ready.

 

[billconner]

Drystacked probably 3/4 of it today. Front and left topped out, just a few hours on rear and right side in morning. Then start surface bonding cement application.

 

[billconner]

All blocks stacked. Rebar, grouting, and parting with surface bonding cement and foundation is finished. Some moving of dirt and gravel. Hopefully start framing end of next week.

 

[billconner]

Applying surface bond cement today - 84° - 69% humidity - realfeel say 95° - and it's a job. My shirt is soaked. Not the time to do this but hopefully can do 2 or 3 more bags today - 2 done so far - and I estimate 14 for whole project. Maybe start at 6:00 am tomorrow.

 

[billconner]

Steep learning curve on applying surface bonding cement, but definitely improving after 3 bags (of 16 or so to finish). Applying thicker than the necessary 1/8" is faster and easier, so will do that. And I'm sure this is easier and faster than traditional mortared joints.

About 1/8 done, hope to ramp up tomorrow. Will try to start early and avoid some sun. Bad time of year for any work with cement because of heat.

 

[captain14]

Do you apply this surface bonder like stucco? Trowel it on and smooth it over and return with a brush for a final finish? This is on both sides of the block?

Thanks

 

[billconner]

Never applied stucco but loaded trowel and smeared up, then smoothed it with a finishing trowel horizontally. Absolutely both sides. Like skins on both sides of honeycomb in a hollow core door. I think if just one side you could push it over and it would "fold". Not trying that.

 

[reader2580]

What type of concrete blocks are those? They don’t look like standard concrete blocks like used with mortar.