2 Post Lift on Control Joint

[Cummins2014]

1st off I'm new here. 2nd I've read all the threads about this but I'm looking for real world examples.

6 months ago I had a 30x35x14 garage build as a hobby shop. I had 4,500 psi concrete poured at 4" and I had a 15' x 15' area poured at 6" as I knew I was going to install a lift just didn't know exactly where and what kind of lift.

Last week I have a Challenger dealer and installer install a CL10-V3. After the install was complete I checked out their work and to my surprise they installed the footplates on top of a control joint with 2 anchors on each post 2 1/2" away from the control joint and 3 anchors on each post roughly 5" away from the control joint. The control joint is 15' from the wall so there was plenty of room to move the lift 10" north toward the wall and still have over 13' to the nearest obstruction.

The installer says that this is a fine install and he has done many like this in the past without issues. Challenger says this is not an approved install. The installer has agreed to move the lift and fill the empty holes from the anchors with epoxy but I just spent over $7k on concrete 6 months ago and it makes me sick to think about doing this.

1st question to folks here is do you have a lift on top of a control joint like mine (see pic's)? If so how long has it been like this and have you had any issues?
2nd question: If I do move the lift roughly 10" north toward the wall away from the control joint what would you consider an acceptable concrete repair?

I'm young and I thought I was buying a lifetime lift but with a 6 month old baby I wonder if I should be under a car with a lift installed this way.

Thanks for any input!

 

[Slick111]

No way I would get under a car/truck in the air with that install. If that is the location you need get that lift installer to cut out a 3ft X 3ft area with new high strength concrete rebar drilled epoxy in to existing concrete after all Challenger said not a recommended install

 

[mike93lx]

Experiences are irrelevant, IMO. Challenger said no, so that is the answer. Move it, plug the holes and get going using it.

 

[wssix99]

1st question to folks here is do you have a lift on top of a control joint like mine (see pic's)? If so how long has it been like this and have you had any issues?

This is the kind of thing that someone will not have an "issue" until they have an ISSUE. At that point, they may not be able to post here.

1st off I'm new here. 2nd I've read all the threads about this but I'm looking for real world examples.

Did you read the posts about stress cones and how the concrete around the anchors withstand force? If not, we can post a diagram here. (A good number of your as-installed anchors only have a fraction of their strength. This has nothing to do with the anchors and is related to the crack running through the area where the concrete resists the anchors pulling out of the slab.)

 

[ericm]

It's pretty sad for a dealer for the brand to not even follow the lift company's directions.

 

[Cummins2014]

No way I would get under a car/truck in the air with that install. If that is the location you need get that lift installer to cut out a 3ft X 3ft area with new high strength concrete rebar drilled epoxy in to existing concrete after all Challenger said not a recommended install

Before the lift was installed they could have moved it toward the wall 10” and the closest anchor to the control joint would have been 8” away with the nearest wall obstruction 13’ away. Now the installer is offering to move the lift but reuse roughly 4 of the existing anchor locations per post leaving me with 3 holes per post. This route would move me 8” away from the control joint but not sure if anchors are safe to reuse and I really hate the idea of epoxy filling holes in my brand new concrete.

 

[Cummins2014]

This is the kind of thing that someone will not have an "issue" until they have an ISSUE. At that point, they may not be able to post here.



Did you read the posts about stress cones and how the concrete around the anchors withstand force? If not, we can post a diagram here. (A good number of your as-installed anchors only have a fraction of their strength. This has nothing to do with the anchors and is related to the crack running through the area where the concrete resists the anchors pulling out of the slab.)

Could you share the diagram? The installer stated he has installed anchors in the middle of a control joint before. Keep in mind this is a well known installer for a well known lift company. I told him I’m not a structural engineer but under no circumstances would I think installing an anchor directly in a control joint would ever cross my mind. Are anchors safe to be reused?

 

[ratflinger]

And I believe the lift manufacturer will insist that all holes are used. As part of a past life I drilled holes to support heavy machinery, it wasn't that difficult. Do not let him get away with not drilling new holes with new anchors. Or have him sign an affidavit that he did not install the lift according to the manufacturer, but to his own judgement (Yeah, that will happen)

 

[AC-WC]

All the previous responses are spot on!

1) You are 100% correct in making him redo it! I would not get under it.
EVERY lift manufacturer states DO NOT install over seams, control joints/cuts and seams are NOT to be within 6" of the base plates.
2) You should be OK with the 10" move BUT make sure the edge of the base plate is at least 6" from the old holes. Fill in the old holes with something like this:

Akonaflex® Pro Self-Leveling Expansion Joint Filler - 29 fl. oz.

Akonaflex® Expansion Joint Filler is a superior-grade, one-component, urethane sealant and filler to be used in concrete joints as well as a wide variety of substrates. Its self-leveling characteristics provide a smooth finish which makes it ideal for filling cracks or gaps on horizontal...

www.menards.com

Make him pay for it! He should know better and he would lose in court.
I would watch him every second he is there to do the repair.
This is Monday quarterback response but after he gets done with the move and repair then I would send pictures of all this to Challenger.

How he gets away with that is beyond me and I doubt Challenger is aware of what he's doing. He should have told you the location you picked would not be recommended due to the seams and recommended a different option.

 

[Cummins2014]

And I believe the lift manufacturer will insist that all holes are used. As part of a past life I drilled holes to support heavy machinery, it wasn't that difficult. Do not let him get away with not drilling new holes with new anchors. Or have him sign an affidavit that he did not install the lift according to the manufacturer, but to his own judgement (Yeah, that will happen)

I agree all holes need to be used and the installer does also. Sounds like his plan is to shift the lift forward 8 ish inches and some of the existing anchors will line up with footplate holes and 3 new holes will be drilled 4 old anchors will line up with the footplate locations. Is it safe to reuse anchors? You can’t just pull these out of the concrete and put a new one in can you?

 

[AC-WC]

The epoxy he suggested would be OK but you could ask if he can keep the dust from the new holes to mix on the top of the filled holes to help blend it in colorwise so it's not as noticeable.
Think of drilling holes in wood, filling the holes with expoxy/glue and then using the sawdust on the top to blend in.

 

[wssix99]

Could you share the diagram?

Concrete, being strong in compression and weak in tension resists anchor pull-out forces through a stress cone radiating from the bottom of the anchor. (For a wedge anchor, this is where the wedge bites into the concrete.)



When a crack (there is a crack in - or one could develop in each control joint) passes through this stress cone, the shape resisting the force becomes part of a cone. The reduced surface area of the part-cone reduces the pull-out resistance.

When lift manufacturers design their baseplates, they take into account the anchor depth and the array of these cones:

The installer stated he has installed anchors in the middle of a control joint before. Keep in mind this is a well known installer for a well known lift company. I told him I’m not a structural engineer but under no circumstances would I think installing an anchor directly in a control joint would ever cross my mind. Are anchors safe to be reused?

I would ask him where he got his engineering degree from! lol I would also ask him for a printed copy of his company's insurance and liability policy and then enjoy the silence as he shuts up.

I would not re-use the anchors and am not sure how they would get the old ones out of the slab. If they were drilled properly, getting them out would be a destructive process. ... They might be worried about this and what you are going to say next.

 

[Cummins2014]

All the previous responses are spot on!

1) You are 100% correct in making him redo it! I would not get under it.
EVERY lift manufacturer states DO NOT install over seams, control joints/cuts and seams are NOT to be within 6" of the base plates.
2) You should be OK with the 10" move BUT make sure the edge of the base plate is at least 6" from the old holes. Fill in the old holes with something like this:

Akonaflex® Pro Self-Leveling Expansion Joint Filler - 29 fl. oz.

Akonaflex® Expansion Joint Filler is a superior-grade, one-component, urethane sealant and filler to be used in concrete joints as well as a wide variety of substrates. Its self-leveling characteristics provide a smooth finish which makes it ideal for filling cracks or gaps on horizontal...

www.menards.com

Make him pay for it! He should know better and he would lose in court.
I would watch him every second he is there to do the repair.
This is Monday quarterback response but after he gets done with the move and repair then I would send pictures of all this to Challenger.

How he gets away with that is beyond me and I doubt Challenger is aware of what he's doing. He should have told you the location you picked would not be recommended due to the seams and recommended a different option.

He (install company owner) wasn’t here when it was installed. His employees were the ones to do it. All they asked me is what bay would you like the lift in. I showed them the bay (2 garage doors) turned the heat for them and they went to work.

Also I have spoke to the Challenger sales rep in the area. He seems pissed at me. The installer is the sales rep’s customer so he took it personal like I was talking bad about his good customer. He told me Challenger does not approve (due to liability reasons and manufacturer instructions) and I’d need to take that up with the installer.

 

[wssix99]

I see you meant that they want to reuse the existing anchors in the new location. That should not be an issue, but I can't imagine how the holes are going to line up exactly to be re-used but if the anchors aren't pulled out, you can unbolt them and re-torque them - no problem.

 

[WNYflyer]

Before the lift was installed they could have moved it toward the wall 10” and the closest anchor to the control joint would have been 8” away with the nearest wall obstruction 13’ away. Now the installer is offering to move the lift but reuse roughly 4 of the existing anchor locations per post leaving me with 3 holes per post. This route would move me 8” away from the control joint but not sure if anchors are safe to reuse and I really hate the idea of epoxy filling holes in my brand new concrete.

I would contact Challenger and also ask them if there is any recommendation on how far the lift columns should be from any crack in the floor such as a intentional one such as a control joint. In other words, in plan, how far from any concrete crack shall the lift assembly be installed i.e. left to right, up and down relative to the centerlines of the lift. The Challenger installation manual says the floor shall be free of large cracks, well a control joint is a crack so what the heck does Challenger mean by that?

 

[Cummins2014]

Concrete, being strong in compression and weak in tension resists anchor pull-out forces through a stress cone radiating from the bottom of the anchor. (For a wedge anchor, this is where the wedge bites into the concrete.)



When a crack (there is a crack in - or one could develop in each control joint) passes through this stress cone, the shape resisting the force becomes part of a cone. The reduced surface area of the part-cone reduces the pull-out resistance.

When lift manufacturers design their baseplates, they take into account the anchor depth and the array of these cones:





I would ask him where he got his engineering degree from! lol I would also ask him for a printed copy of his company's insurance and liability policy and then enjoy the silence as he shuts up.

I would not re-use the anchors and am not sure how they would get the old ones out of the slab. If they were drilled properly, getting them out would be a destructive process. ... They might be worried about this and what you are going to say next.

Thank you thank you thank you! My concern is the same regarding reusing the anchors. But if he starts busting up concrete and I have to move the lift 2’ instead of just 10” to clear the holes then I’m closer to the wall then I want to be. Challanger has exceptions as to “abandoned anchors”. Basically cutting the heads off flush to ground see pic (rep sent it to me today when I made him mad)

 

[wssix99]

Thank you thank you thank you! My concern is the same regarding reusing the anchors.

That's good guidance on the abandoned anchors. Any anchor hole you would not be using going forward would be in this category. These are not as worrisome as a crack. A crack cuts through the cone and reduces surface area. The abandoned anchors (that are NOT carrying a load) are like a bullet hole through the edge of the cone, which is a tiny little thing comparatively.

Its nice that your installer is reading instructions now.

 

[Cummins2014]

That's good guidance on the abandoned anchors. Any anchor hole you would not be using going forward would be in this category. These are not as worrisome as a crack. A crack cuts through the cone and reduces surface area. The abandoned anchors (that are NOT carrying a load) are like a bullet hole through the edge of the cone, which is a tiny little thing comparatively.

Its nice that your installer is reading instructions now.

Challanger sent me that not the installer lol. With everyone’s input I’ll be having the lift moved and I’ll invite the sales rep for my area to come out and oversee the new install LOL. My issue is if the 4 anchors on each post don’t line up then I’m going to be way off center side to side or much more deeper in the bay then I should have been. Having epoxy covering holes on my 6 month old floor that I gave over 7k for makes me sick, but I guess that’s my luck.

 

[wssix99]

Challanger sent me that not the installer lol.

Ah. Reading... wishful thinking.

With everyone’s input I’ll be having the lift moved and I’ll invite the sales rep for my area to come out and oversee the new install

Good move.

My issue is if the 4 anchors on each post don’t line up then I’m going to be way off center side to side or much more deeper in the bay then I should have been. Having epoxy covering holes on my 6 month old floor that I gave over 7k for makes me sick, but I guess that’s my luck.

You should have my wife 'Karen' have a piece of them. Demand to see that insurance policy, etc. She can tear at them and not even spill a drop from her sippy cup thermos. Maybe you can get a free epoxy coating for the entire floor out of this???

 

[Cummins2014]

You should have my wife 'Karen' have a piece of them. Demand to see that insurance policy, etc. She can tear at them and not even spill a drop from her sippy cup thermos. Maybe you can get a free epoxy coating for the entire floor out of this???

LOL, that’s great. Unfortunately My wife can’t be mean to anyone but me lol. I hate when I have to be a “Karen”. But like I told the installer I’m the person under the lift not you, it’s my life or my family’s as this is a shop I hope to teach my kids how to work on cars. My understanding per Challenge he is insured as he has to meet minimum insurance guidelines to be an authorized installer.
Yeah maybe epoxy coat the entire floor would make the anchor holes less noticeable. I’ll ask him what his plan is as far as compensation to 6 epoxy filled holes is.

 

[ratflinger]

I agree all holes need to be used and the installer does also. Sounds like his plan is to shift the lift forward 8 ish inches and some of the existing anchors will line up with footplate holes and 3 new holes will be drilled 4 old anchors will line up with the footplate locations. Is it safe to reuse anchors? You can’t just pull these out of the concrete and put a new one in can you?

As long as the anchors are properly embedded they are safe to reuse. Sleeve anchors can not be removed w/o damage to the hole. I prefer glue, second choice is wedge anchors.

 

[ratflinger]

The saleshole is full of ****. You are the customer, not the installers (who did you pay?)

Also, sleeve anchors are ****, I wouldn't use them. In your case I'd use the Hilti HY Max glue that Challanger recommends. See, with the glue you get away from damaged holes and pulled anchors. The hole needs to be cleaned well, a squirt of epoxy, and then a stud gets dropped in. The epoxy is at least 10x stronger than the concrete, probably more, they don't pull out. Ever wonder how medical equipment is hung from a ceiling? - Epoxy.

I wouldn't worry about the epoxied holes, after a short period you won't see them anymore.

 

[gizardlizard]

It’s a little late now, but all this was completely preventable. Since you had a 15’x 15’ pad poured for a lift, it was your job to do your homework and figure out exactly where the base plates would sit and where the holes would need to be drilled. I made templates for my base plates before I even picked up my lift. All critical dimensions you can find online. With that being said, I agree with everyone here saying it needs to be moved. That’s not even a question.

 

[jonesg]

thats the sort of sketchy **** I do, but the whole idea of paying to have it installed is to avoid the sketchy stuff.
Although i have spray painted the floor where base plates will go to avoid the rebar.
Due diligence would have been drawing some outlines with chalk.

 

[Cummins2014]

The saleshole is full of ****. You are the customer, not the installers (who did you pay?)

Also, sleeve anchors are ****, I wouldn't use them. In your case I'd use the Hilti HY Max glue that Challanger recommends. See, with the glue you get away from damaged holes and pulled anchors. The hole needs to be cleaned well, a squirt of epoxy, and then a stud gets dropped in. The epoxy is at least 10x stronger than the concrete, probably more, they don't pull out. Ever wonder how medical equipment is hung from a ceiling? - Epoxy.

I wouldn't worry about the epoxied holes, after a short period you won't see them anymore.

My argument to sales rep is that I am the "end customer". The sales rep said the installer is the customer as Challenger does not sell direct to consumer you must buy from their dealers.
The installer stated he used "upgraded Hilti anchors" but he didn't say anything about epoxy. I can confirm the anchors on my lift are not the standard anchors. Challenger said standard anchors are 3/4" diameter and mine are 1/2". I looked under the footplates for any epoxy seepage and couldn't see any so I believe they are anchors and not epoxy but some other type of anchor that the installer uses as an "upgrade".

 

[Cummins2014]

It’s a little late now, but all this was completely preventable. Since you had a 15’x 15’ pad poured for a lift, it was your job to do your homework and figure out exactly where the base plates would sit and where the holes would need to be drilled. I made templates for my base plates before I even picked up my lift. All critical dimensions you can find online. With that being said, I agree with everyone here saying it needs to be moved. That’s not even a question.

Thank you for your reply. I disagree it being my fault though. I paid $650 for delivery and install and also bought the lift from the installer as he is a dealer and installer. I spoke with him 3 days before install and told him 5' to 20' from the north wall and 2' 6" on each side of the garage door opening is my 15' x 15', 6" pad. All I said is I would like it installed in that area for extra peace of mind. It's not my job to mark out mounting positions of the lift, if I had to do that I might as well have installed it myself. Supposedly this installer creates layouts for large auto repair centers, they should have known not to place the lift on the joint IMO.

 

[Cummins2014]

thats the sort of sketchy **** I do, but the whole idea of paying to have it installed is to avoid the sketchy stuff.
Although i have spray painted the floor where base plates will go to avoid the rebar.
Due diligence would have been drawing some outlines with chalk.

CL10-V3 can be configured in 2 different width's. It's not my "job" to mark out exactly where I want my lift to be. I'm paying a certified installer. I could possibly see if there was distance restraints and the lift couldn't have been moved else where but there was plenty of room to move it 8" toward the wall and be far enough away from the control joint. Red lines are my control joint cuts (I'm not an artist).

 

[jonesg]

The professional installer today was stacking pallets at home depot last year and will be working at the boatyard all summer.
These guys should be removed from the list of approved installers, they're obviously cowboys who don't give a ****.

 

[aka Larry]

You said the installer was recommended to you by the Challenger sales rep? No way a qualified installer would install it that way, even if you requested it. I know I wouldn't have if I were installing it. You also said they used 1/2" bolts when 3/4" bolts were recommended? WTF?

I don't think I'd trust these yahoos to do anything further, even on their dime. For my own safety, I'd find someone else and eat the cost just for piece of mind. Like you said, you'll be the whose standing under it!

 

[Cummins2014]

You also said they used 1/2" bolts when 3/4" bolts were recommended? WTF?

I don't think I'd trust these yahoos to do anything further, even on their dime. For my own safety, I'd find someone else and eat the cost just for piece of mind. Like you said, you'll be the whose standing under it!

Yeah I'm confused about that also. The lift is sold to customer with 3/4" anchors per Challenger manual parts diagram. Mine are 1/2" and not sure how that could be considered an upgrade?

This install company is the same company that the auto parts stores in my area (Advance, AZ & Oriley) use to install lifts they sell to customers.

 

[Cummins2014]

Update per Challenger rep 5 min ago. Anchors can NOT be reused. So the lift can't be shifted forward and reuse anchors per Challenger. What am I going to do now? I'll have to move 2' toward the wall instead of 8 or so inches.

 

[mike93lx]

Update per Challenger rep 5 min ago. Anchors can NOT be reused. So the lift can't be shifted forward and reuse anchors per Challenger. What am I going to do now? I'll have to move 2' toward the wall instead of 8 or so inches.

I'd ask challenger to get with their dealer and propose a solution

 

[gizardlizard]

Thank you for your reply. I disagree it being my fault though. I paid $650 for delivery and install and also bought the lift from the installer as he is a dealer and installer. I spoke with him 3 days before install and told him 5' to 20' from the north wall and 2' 6" on each side of the garage door opening is my 15' x 15', 6" pad. All I said is I would like it installed in that area for extra peace of mind. It's not my job to mark out mounting positions of the lift, if I had to do that I might as well have installed it myself. Supposedly this installer creates layouts for large auto repair centers, they should have known not to place the lift on the joint IMO.

Yes, the installer should have absolutely known that they couldn’t install on an expansion joint. With that being, had you marked it for them, you wouldn’t be here now. If your wife is having furniture delivered, I guarantee she probably wouldn’t be happy if it was 1/4” off from where she wanted it. At least mine wouldn’t. If you couldn’t be onsite during the install, you 100% should have had it layed out so there was no confusion about where it should go. At the end of the day, you’ll still be happy when it’s done and you just learned a valuable lesson.

 

[Cummins2014]

I'd ask challenger to get with their dealer and propose a solution

Just talked to the installer. His solution is to shift the lift so we clear abandoned anchors or move the lift forward clear of all anchors. This will put me too close to the wall IMO.

 

[Cummins2014]

Yes, the installer should have absolutely known that they couldn’t install on an expansion joint. With that being, had you marked it for them, you wouldn’t be here now. If your wife is having furniture delivered, I guarantee she probably wouldn’t be happy if it was 1/4” off from where she wanted it. At least mine wouldn’t. If you couldn’t be onsite during the install, you 100% should have had it layed out so there was no confusion about where it should go. At the end of the day, you’ll still be happy when it’s done and you just learned a valuable lesson.

Agree on the wife part. Just got off phone with installer sounds like he will be here next week. Not sure what is going to happen to the holes in my concreate and not sure how far we are going to have to move it. Going to get some dimensions of exactly where the lift is so I can send it over to him and let him provide me with a work plan on where he plans to put the lift before it's move.

 

[gizardlizard]

Agree on the wife part. Just got off phone with installer sounds like he will be here next week. Not sure what is going to happen to the holes in my concreate and not sure how far we are going to have to move it. Going to get some dimensions of exactly where the lift is so I can send it over to him and let him provide me with a work plan on where he plans to put the lift before it's move.

There you go. Can never assume anything. Sounds like you’re on the correct path.

 

[Rusted Nut]

Take a good look at the attached pic. This crack control joint is doing its job perfectly, controlling the where the slab cracked. Your anchor is in a crack, and probably has only about 20% of its rated strength.

 

[Cummins2014]

Take a good look at the attached pic. This crack control joint is doing its job perfectly, controlling the where the slab cracked. Your anchor is in a crack, and probably has only about 20% of its rated strength.

I agree completely. Essentially the lift is installed on 2 separate slabs (once the control joint finishes it's job) with 3 anchors, on each post roughly 2 1/2" away from the cut. When I spoke to the installer 20 min ago he still insists that I will have no issues leaving it where it is but that he would come out and move it if I like. I said yes it needs moved Challenger engineer said so. Installer has been very nice not sure if it's because he thinks he done something wrong or if that's just the kind of guy he is.

 

[bb29510]

the concrete surface is a plane, its to keep the plate from moving, the weight of the car is a downforce, as long as the plate doesnt move, its find. so the control joint is not an issue if it hasnt move, or even if it hasnt crack through all the way. myself i would not do it either

 

[ratflinger]

If he didn't know that the install was wrong he wouldn't be so 'helpful' about moving it. His guys screwed the pooch and he knows it.

No issues leaving it where it is, right. On an expansion joint with undersized anchors. Hilti anchors are premium but even they don't spec their 1/2" to hold in place of 3/4". What do you want to bet - installers didn't have a 7/8" hammer bit with them. Meh, 1/2" will do.