Why is there a saw cut through the middle of your structural slab right where the lift needs to go? The structural slab gets temperature/shrinkage reinforcement to control and distribute cracking, not saw cuts. There should not be any temperature or shrinkage cracks in a slab as small as yours in any case if things were done correctly. The install is half foundation construction, half lift installation. You should have marked the slab for them like any normal job.
2 Post Lift on Control Joint
- Thread starter Cummins2014
- Start date
ratflinger
Well-known member
Now it's kind of like closing the barn door after the horse runs out.
OP
Cummins2014
Active member
There is more than 1 saw cut. There is another closer to the door where my floor drains are and on the back wall. As far as this slab shouldn't need a saw cut I can't say... I do disagree with you here though. If I'm certified at something I'm going to read the manufactures manual and put it in a place that is acceptable. If the customer was to insist on having it in a location that didn't meet the manual I'd say find you someone else to install it. All I told them is I wanted it in "X" bay and they went to work.
Multiple mistakes made by both the owner and installer. The resolution should reflect this.
OP
Cummins2014
Active member
Are you saying it's safe to leave where it is? The slab is 6 months old. It hasn't went through a freeze thaw cycle yet.
OP
Cummins2014
Active member
Do you tell a doctor how to do open heart surgery while he has you under anesthesia? I bet you don't. Why would I tell a lift doctor how to install a lift? I paid $650 for a lift "doctor" to install my lift. Just my thoughts. I guess we will agree to disagree.
ratflinger
Well-known member
Sure, but at a minimum, even with the poor directions from the owner, 'professional' installers should have approached him and asked him to approve the proposed layout before they drilled.
It is part of the installers job to verify that what the owner wants is acceptable, within the manufacturers specs.
OP
Cummins2014
Active member
My thoughts exactly! Glad I'm not the only one who thinks this!
ratflinger
Well-known member
Drawings??? The OP paid the dealer $650 to install the lift, doubt if the dealer ever even stuck his head in the door. He sent a couple of knuckleheads over (probably gave then $100 each) to do a job 'that any idiot could do'. One would like to think that the dealer would be a little more interested in a quality install as his business is based largely on word of mouth, but apparently he was too busy and now his 'professional' installers are going to cost him some money.
OP
Cummins2014
Active member
Installer was supposedly out of state measuring and drafting a new car dealership's garage lift layout plan... 2 of his "guys" installed the lift the owner wasn't here. He said he would be here when it's move though, lol.
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OP
Cummins2014
Active member
His entire business is based on the fact he designs garage layouts for best space utilization. It's not on me the customer to provide specifications. The installer is certified and authorized by the manufacture! If a dealership installs an engine in your car and forgets to put oil in it whos fault is it? Is it yours because you didn't tell them to put oil in it when they replaced the engine, or is it on the dealership because when replacing an engine you should make sure it has oil in it?
Your lift install is part of a larger job: The garage build. If you hired him to take the responsibility for location and installation of the lift, you needed to provide drawings to him for the work you had done so far. Else, how would he know enough to install the lift and meet the lift specs? He should have marked up your drawing and sent it to you for approval just like a regular construction job.
ericm
Well-known member
I don't understand why people are blaming the OP. It's the installers job to install it to the lift manufacturers specs. If the OP didn't specify a location that meets the specs, or a location at all, the installers should have pointed that out and had a discussion with the OP about where exactly it should go that will meet the specs.
Yes, marking it out exactly gives the installers a starting point but they should still double check that it meets the specs. Its just a few measurements.
Yes, marking it out exactly gives the installers a starting point but they should still double check that it meets the specs. Its just a few measurements.
OP
Cummins2014
Active member
Thank you. I don't think it's my job to tell a "pro" how to do his job. The entire situation has me sick. I thought I was doing everything right but I honestly think I could have done a better install after all said and done. If I would have just stayed out there while they were installing it I would have said no no no but I had my own work to do. Rather they install them on a cut all the time or not I can't say for sure but more I read on here the more I want it moved. Back to my original point if a customer tells me they want something done one way and I know it's "wrong" I'm going to refuse to do it.
aka Larry
Well-known member
According to you, you didn't specify exactly where you wanted it, but regardless, a Pro should know better, which is why you hired a Pro in the first place. I agree with you it was wrong, and if you had told me to put it in that location, I would have refused also.
I'm a draftsman for a civil engineering firm by trade, so of course I drafted a complete set of plans for my slab's construction including the control join locations to avoid my future lift. Not everyone has that capability or should have to, so I'm sympathetic to your situation.
OP
Cummins2014
Active member
Thank you. And yes I didn't specify where I wanted it other than what bay I wanted it in. I was just saying if a customer were to ask me to do something wrong I wouldn't do it, so I definitely wouldn't do it incorrect just because (hope that makes sense).
wssix99
Well-known member
Epoxy or not is irrelevant. Epoxy and wedge anchors act the same with regard to concrete and the stress cone is the same. Neither has an advantage (if properly installed) over the other. The stress cone still develops from the bottom of the anchor. Cracks are an issue for the cone - not the anchor.
There is no technical reason to not reuse a proper anchor, however your problem is that your installer didn't put the correct anchors in the hole in the first place. The steel in the anchor still has a job to do and 1/2" anchors are much weaker than 3/4" anchors. 3/4" anchors are pretty standard for lifts...
^ This is showing that the person who installed your lift had no idea what they are doing. At this point, I would proceed no further until you get a rep from Challenger out to your house to see what their certified people and partners did. Make them a part of the process to make this right.
OP
Cummins2014
Active member
I don't understand why he used 1/2" anchors because the lift is sold with 3/4" anchors. Some reason he has to believe these are "upgrades" right?
I'm trying to get a Challenger rep out here but seems I'm making them angry because I've called them a handful of times and "they have more than 1 lift to worry about" (quote from Challenger sales rep). I'm working on an email to his manager now as I'm HOT. Anyone know a big wig at Challenger? I've called the 3 closest sales rep's. 2 of them were nice but directed me to talk to my local sales rep that was the one who said he had more than 1 lift to worry about.
wssix99
Well-known member
At this point, I'm not sure there is any way to know. Mechanically speaking, they can't be upgrades. Certainly, they are easier to work with and (you'll see this rationale used everywhere...) if they get away with it once and they don't hear of anything bad happening, they assume they did good and all is well. "It hasn't fallen over yet..."
I would send that line back to the manager, send a copy of the written letter to the CEO of the company (put him on cc of your email) and mention that if they don't have time to work with you, you'd be happy to work directly with their insurance company if they can please provide you a copy of their policy and a contact at their insurance company. You might also make the point that your situation has nothing to do with your property being a residence or a commercial property - your issue is with their installer not following Challenger's instructions.
This is how they choose to operate as a company. No sympathy.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Wiz02
Well-known member
@Cummins2014 , I have only hired contractors for a few jobs at my home over the years, but I too paid dearly to learn that you can't go to work and expect a quality or even a competent job if you aren't around to supervise.
Sorry that you are having such a hard time getting your lift properly installed.
The guy that installed my lift offset the column to move it as far as possible from the control joint.
I hope that you get the lift installed safely, it is such a game changer. I thank my lucky stars every time that I use mine.
Sorry that you are having such a hard time getting your lift properly installed.
The guy that installed my lift offset the column to move it as far as possible from the control joint.
I hope that you get the lift installed safely, it is such a game changer. I thank my lucky stars every time that I use mine.
wssix99
Well-known member
And we'd end up paying more than tearing up the slab and putting in a repair slab section.
sjvicker
Well-known member
Stuff like this is why I try to DIY everything.... for better or for worse.
The thought that the OP was supposed to have detailed drawings on lift location is also laughable. This is why he hired a "pro" as the general person isn't going to know all of the requirements and details about installing a 2 post lift. The contractor should have brought this to the owners attention immediately when they saw that the install couldn't meet Challenger's requirements.
The install location and fastener type dont meet the manufacturer's spec and per the manufacturer you can't reuse fasteners. Since the only open spot puts your lift in a location you dont want I think you only have a few options here.
1.Ideal solution - remove the lift, cut the concrete in squares around each column, repour and install per the manufactures instructions.
2. Gamble a bit, standard practice for anyone who's put in wedge anchors is to drill through the slab to the dirt below. If you can pound your existing anchors through then you could probably open up the old holes enough to move the lift over and use the correct size of anchors.
3. Gamble a bit more and get some brackets fabricated that increase the size of the baseplate and give you more anchors on that post. Atlas makes something similar for their baseplate lifts https://www.atlasautoequipment.com/...ories/extension-kits/base-plate-extension-kit
The thought that the OP was supposed to have detailed drawings on lift location is also laughable. This is why he hired a "pro" as the general person isn't going to know all of the requirements and details about installing a 2 post lift. The contractor should have brought this to the owners attention immediately when they saw that the install couldn't meet Challenger's requirements.
The install location and fastener type dont meet the manufacturer's spec and per the manufacturer you can't reuse fasteners. Since the only open spot puts your lift in a location you dont want I think you only have a few options here.
1.Ideal solution - remove the lift, cut the concrete in squares around each column, repour and install per the manufactures instructions.
2. Gamble a bit, standard practice for anyone who's put in wedge anchors is to drill through the slab to the dirt below. If you can pound your existing anchors through then you could probably open up the old holes enough to move the lift over and use the correct size of anchors.
3. Gamble a bit more and get some brackets fabricated that increase the size of the baseplate and give you more anchors on that post. Atlas makes something similar for their baseplate lifts https://www.atlasautoequipment.com/...ories/extension-kits/base-plate-extension-kit
ratflinger
Well-known member
Sorry, most homeowners don't approach things like a project manager would. Maybe in a perfect world, but this ain't it.
As for the second part - the dealer is trained by the manufacturer, therefore should know everything there is to know about installing the lift. Installing over an expansion joint and using underrated anchors is not a homeowners issue. If the homeowner stated that there was 6" of 4000psi concrete and turned out to be 3" of 3000psi then it's all on the homeowner, but not the case here.
I would have performed this installation myself, but that might not have been in the OP's comfort zone.
Worse case is cutting & repouring the concrete, closely followed by 1/2" oversized steel plate bolted to the floor and the lift bolted to the plate.
OP
Cummins2014
Active member
Great thought! This never even crossed my mind but a 1/2" hole is much easier to drill than a 3/4"!
The "I don't have time" was said over phone call so I don't have "proof". More info on this in my post after I have a chance to make replies. Stay tuned because I was thinking the same thing. Hello MR. CEO we need to talk.
OP
Cummins2014
Active member
Everything has been in text except for a few phone calls. No lawyer talk yet. Seems I might have a solution stay tuned.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
The reality is, that with the right tools, the difference is not material. Couple extra minutes for the whole job.
Its just lazy
OP
Cummins2014
Active member
I try DIY also. But my FIL paid for the lift because I'm always working on his cars for free. His only request is that a "pro" installed it so he didn't have to worry about a bad DIY install. Bit me in the a** didn't it.
Great info and thoughts of a resolution/fix. My thing is Challenger recommends 12' from nearest wall/obstruction from the center of the lift posts. My saw cut is 15' from the nearest wall. There wasn't any reason it was installed there other than it was the center of the garage bay.
1) Doubt the installer will agree to this but I will ask, lol.
2) Wondering if some of the old holes will still line up once the lift is moved off the control joint. But per Challenger we must stay away 2 3/4" from "abandoned anchors" this might be an issue getting everything to line up and stay in spec per manufacture.
3) Doubt challenger would approve, but I can ask. I have a "big dog's" phone number now (more to come).
OP
Cummins2014
Active member
You think Challenger would approve this lol?
OP
Cummins2014
Active member
UPDATE:
I spoke with the North American sale manager for 30 min (no joke 60 seconds after I sent the email he was calling me). Very very nice guy. I expressed my concerns about his employee brushing me off and I wished it didn't have to go this far but this was the entire reason I bought an American made lift vs a China, was for support. He apologized on his behalf and I said not your fault.
Now for the good stuff.
He said he knows the installer professionally (for 25+ years) and he would trust his own installs 100% but his crew done the install and agreed he doesn't know his crew's well and he agreed 100% with my point never install over a cut.
He has agreed to send out Challengers travel tech to oversee the reinstall next week.
Rep said to have installer move the lift correct distance and use the "anchoring closer than standard procedure" for all fastening points. This is 3/4-10NC x 5 1/2" LG Grade 5, Zinc Plated, threaded rod with epoxy HIT-HY 200 MAX (this is the procedure allowed for 3" distance from end of slab or control joint). He said to request this on all 14 of the fasteners just as overkill/peace of mind (he said he is sure the installer wont question this and would be happy to do it because he is a good guy and this is on him).
I'm not a concreate engineer but my understanding is epoxy is much stronger than anchors?
As far as visible holes in my concreate, still not sure what the installers fix is for this.
I spoke with the North American sale manager for 30 min (no joke 60 seconds after I sent the email he was calling me). Very very nice guy. I expressed my concerns about his employee brushing me off and I wished it didn't have to go this far but this was the entire reason I bought an American made lift vs a China, was for support. He apologized on his behalf and I said not your fault.
Now for the good stuff.
He said he knows the installer professionally (for 25+ years) and he would trust his own installs 100% but his crew done the install and agreed he doesn't know his crew's well and he agreed 100% with my point never install over a cut.
He has agreed to send out Challengers travel tech to oversee the reinstall next week.
Rep said to have installer move the lift correct distance and use the "anchoring closer than standard procedure" for all fastening points. This is 3/4-10NC x 5 1/2" LG Grade 5, Zinc Plated, threaded rod with epoxy HIT-HY 200 MAX (this is the procedure allowed for 3" distance from end of slab or control joint). He said to request this on all 14 of the fasteners just as overkill/peace of mind (he said he is sure the installer wont question this and would be happy to do it because he is a good guy and this is on him).
I'm not a concreate engineer but my understanding is epoxy is much stronger than anchors?
As far as visible holes in my concreate, still not sure what the installers fix is for this.
WNYflyer
Well-known member
Well done. This is basically what I was trying to get at on my post @ #15. In other words how far away must cracks be from the columns or that matter the whole lift assembly and not just worrying about a crack relative to an anchor bolt location. Controls joints are cracks.
For my future use and upon reading the ambiguous concrete floor/foundation requirements for a certain BendPak two post lift I posed this question to BendPak by e-mail for one of their two-post lifts and all I heard were crickets. I have a feeling they didn't like my questions.
jonesg
Well-known member
Thats gonna cost them.
Hilti epoxy is $75 an 11 oz tube.
tougher than dragon scales.
Hilti epoxy is $75 an 11 oz tube.
tougher than dragon scales.
OP
Cummins2014
Active member
I knew it was tougher but didn't know it was that tough or expensive. Wonder how many tubes it will take to do 14 holes? I'm curious because I myself will be overseeing this reinstall and they are not going to short me even 1 oz.
ConCretin
Well-known member
It's not a structural slab - it's a ground supported slab on grade with relief cuts to control i.e. hide shrinkage cracks. An entirely different situation. Granted the control joints ideally should have been laid out with a lift in mind or could have been omitted entirely. Btw reinforcing has no bearing on shrinkage cracks other than to make them more likely
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ratflinger
Well-known member
Glad that Challenger stepped up
It is a structural slab. The presence of the lift with its design forces makes it so. A ground-supported structural slab taking significant moments and forces from a steel weldment is not an easy design problem. Its just a small one.
The design temperature and shrinkage reinforcement keeps incidental cracks more numerous but tight, and maintains the structural integrity of the casting so that it can act as a reinforced concrete member. Bottom mat only may be insufficient to do this. Bar area in addition to the temperature/shrinkage steel may be necessary to take applied forces. No saw cuts are needed or wanted within the structural region with the temperature/shrinkage steel.
Rebar resists shrinkage forces, but that does not mean it will make the concrete crack. You can make crack-free slabs even with major amounts of rebar inside. We cast heavily reinforced slabs compositely on mature concrete and steel girders with no cracking at all. I have designed reinforced slabs-on-grade in excess of 500' long with nothing but a few tight cracks at the construction joints. The secret is no secret: Do not let the concrete dry until the concrete tensile strength can take the shrinkage tensile stresses, or what's left of the stresses after relaxation over time. Use good mix design, batching, concreting, and curing. Fog or cover until final set, 7 day moist cure then cover, or use curing membrane.
I am not sure how this helps Cummins2014, but maybe it will help the next guy with their project.
ConCretin
Well-known member
By definition, a structural slab in one that is self supporting whereas a slab on grade depends on the soil underneath for support. The fact that a slab on grade is asked to perform a structural function doesn't change what it is.
That's basically what I said in a lot less words and without cutting and pasting paragraphs out of a design manual. Reinforcing doesn't prevent cracks, it restrains them.
OP
Cummins2014
Active member
I assume the Hilti epoxy is superiors to just a Hilti anchor (without epoxy)? Can anyone confirm? I assume challenger doesn't use this as their "standard" install procedure due to the cost of the epoxy?