2-story shop / garage space functionality

[aaroneous]

I've been working with an architect on a 30x40 detached garage / shop addition that will tie into our current home structure, and I wanted to get some input from those with experience to see if there are any important details I'm missing. I've always worked in a cramped and messy space, so the idea of having enough space for tooling and vehicles to have "homes" and remain calibrated is a bit foreign to me. I'm sure there are obvious details I'm missing because I've never had the space to encounter them.

I am an amateur in all of the trades I dabble in, but I tend to have frequent wood / metal / low voltage electrical / auto (car & 4x4) projects that I'm looking to support with this build.

Our property is on a hill, and the current approach is to have structural decking for a 2nd (main) floor parking area and a downstairs shop space. On the main floor we've got 3 bays, one of which is planned to have a 4-post lift. Downstairs will have permanent / semi-permanent tooling, work and assembly stations, and mechanical room with an overhead door and an outdoor concrete slab for work / loading. The top floor is planned to be a home office space as I work from home 90+% of the time. I know there are less expensive approaches, but this is the one that potentially makes this a forever home for us, and I have my wife's blessing so here we go.

My primary question is whether or not the upstairs / downstairs shop configuration can function well enough to justify building it. I see some definite opportunities (central air & dust downstairs, nice physical separation between clean parking and dirty work space, ability to keep clutter isolated) but I feel like I'll be running up and down stairs all the time and there are some tools and heavy work items that will just **** to move back and forth between levels. I'm thinking moving the welding cart / torch cart up and down and moving around large and heavy work like engines and axles, etc.

Does anyone have any learnings to share from having a 2-story shop? Any recommendations for concepts we should make sure to include in the design?

Thanks in advance, and sorry for the image size / resolution... First post, so not allowed to embed or link to higher resolution photos.

 

[CombatNinja]

First of all, that is a great looking build from what I can see. I'm going to go ahead and wager that cost is not your biggest constraint here so I'll ask the obvious question--have you considered an elevator as opposed to those stairs? The stairs take up a frustrating amount of room, especially when I look at the 3-bay parking level. There really is not a lot of room to spare. Also, when you start talking 'forever home', how will those stairs be treating you when you are getting up there in years? If an elevator is not feasible, I would at least consider a dumb waiter arrangement so you can get heavy objects from one level to the other. The only option I see now is to load it in a car or truck, drive it all the way around the property and then unload it. Looks like a great build but that is what immediately jumped out at me.

 

[yeldogt]

Sometimes you have to work with what you have .

I'm a "location" guy ... IE: Why don't you build a 3 miles away where you will have more space and it's cheaper. Because this is a better town .. better location -- better schools and someone will pay me a premium when I leave. What that typically gets is a smaller lot ... Sometimes other challenges requiring more work and often more money.

It's great that you are working with a pro ... The first thing I noticed was the internal stairs. People will say they are a waste of space .. but, I can tell you that they are not ... especially with any bad weather (you don't give location).

I have never had a space where the garage was over a work area .... but, I have had a wood shop under and office with the cars to the side all in the same building. There is no problem with separation (dust). I could not have the HVAC for the Garage integrated to the other spaces Same when I redid a city fire house. The lower level for cars had to be its own system.

If cold climate hot water heat is your friend as it's easy to zone

It looks like you have drive all the way around .... A good cart with pneumatic wheels is an easy solution for occasional equipment moves.

 

[72 Z27]

What is the interior ceiling height for the main (2nd) floor? It looks low for a 4 post lift.

 

[jmarkwolf]

First of all, that is a great looking build from what I can see. I'm going to go ahead and wager that cost is not your biggest constraint here so I'll ask the obvious question--have you considered an elevator as opposed to those stairs? The stairs take up a frustrating amount of room, especially when I look at the 3-bay parking level. There really is not a lot of room to spare. Also, when you start talking 'forever home', how will those stairs be treating you when you are getting up there in years?

CombatNinja is correct. I have a similar scenario with a 2-story shop, and a first floor ceiling of 10 feet. It makes for a mighty long staircase, which is getting "longer" every year.

If you're set on keeping the stairs, you can frame-in under the stairs and make an air compressor "closet" out of it. For which you'll need to wire and plumb it for the compressor.

You can keep the stairs and still put in a hoist of some sort without resorting to an elevator. I'm planning a hoist over the staircase, or a trolley up the "slope" of the staircase. Wish I had worked it out during construction.

Even an old barn-type bale hoist into a dutch-door would be preferable to ******* heavy $hit up a long staircase.

I've seen videos of drop-down staircases, that are built-in to the floor joists above. Not the wimbly folding kind, but full-on stout stringer built staircases. You would pull a car out, and pull down the staircase with a rope. It only takes floor space when you need it. They're heavy and I don't know how they counter-balance them.

If you're in the snowbelt, plan for heating, even the upstairs, so as to minimize tool rusting if you'll have a shop up there also.

Do a search on YouTube. You'll find many ideas.

 

[yeldogt]

First of all, that is a great looking build from what I can see. I'm going to go ahead and wager that cost is not your biggest constraint here so I'll ask the obvious question--have you considered an elevator as opposed to those stairs? The stairs take up a frustrating amount of room, especially when I look at the 3-bay parking level. There really is not a lot of room to spare. Also, when you start talking 'forever home', how will those stairs be treating you when you are getting up there in years? If an elevator is not feasible, I would at least consider a dumb waiter arrangement so you can get heavy objects from one level to the other. The only option I see now is to load it in a car or truck, drive it all the way around the property and then unload it. Looks like a great build but that is what immediately jumped out at me.

Anyplace I have built -- you still need the stairs. Can't just have the elevator. My new build has a bunch of stairs and we made provisions for an elevator .. thicker pad and cutouts in support structure so it can be retrofired. I really did not want to give up the space or see it -- 125k

 

[firebirdparts]

I live with a 3 story shop, and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be "worth it". The bottom floor is pretty expensive, but on the other hand, it climate controls itself, and it's a good place to be during a tornado. I'll take it. I fits the land, and it's a lot cuter than a metal building 25 feet tall. Like you I was turned on by the "clean/dirty" thing. It's pretty impossible to get car restoration filth from one floor to the other.

There are minor problems: For instance, how to get something heavy from one floor to the other? It's just hard and takes time. Negative "wall effects" are increased, but then again you have more places to hang cool decorations. My knees are still good, but I am sure that could be an issue at some point.

 

[CraigStu]

I wonder if an elevator could take the place of the steps. Would code require steps? Just spitballing here but if you could get rid of the steps by replacing them w/ an elevator, I think you would have more space and it could be it wouldn't cost much extra. You have emergency exit on the first and second floor via garage door. Maybe outside steps for the 3rd floor emergency exit.

 

[yeldogt]

I wonder if an elevator could take the place of the steps. Would code require steps? Just spitballing here but if you could get rid of the steps by replacing them w/ an elevator, I think you would have more space and it could be it wouldn't cost much extra. You have emergency exit on the first and second floor via garage door. Maybe outside steps for the 3rd floor emergency exit.

Post #6

 

[ace10]

Those stairs are a monument to wasted space. Surely a professional architect can come up with a better design. They're taking up, what, 20% of the square footage including the landings?

From the 3Ds, the building looks well integrated into the house design and I Like how the roofs are broken up to soften the weight of such a large addition.

 

[mepstein]

Parts elevator and circular stairwell to save space?

 

[yeldogt]

Those stairs are a monument to wasted space. Surely a professional architect can come up with a better design. They're taking up, what, 20% of the square footage including the landings?

From the 3Ds, the building looks well integrated into the house design and I Like how the roofs are broken up to soften the weight of such a large addition.

Proper steps are very important and are always one of the first steps (no pun intended) in the design process. My new project is an example ... almost all of the expansion of the footprint for the replacement addition is for a proper set of steps in that part of the project. It's one of the rookie mistakes people make when building -- Steps need to be part of the design .. not an afterthought. In fact I try and do them 4' wide vs 3' code.

 

[yeldogt]

Parts elevator and circular stairwell to save space?

Circular are hard for most people to navigate ,, even when enclosed.

 

[firebirdparts]

I put mine outside the shop footprint but covered them with the building. With the blisters you have on that building, it seems like that might be an option.

 

[dcg9381]

Parts elevator and circular stairwell to save space?

The way I did this in an "upside down" residence (house 2nd floor, garage downstairs) was carve out a corner square and frame in basically what was a framed spiral staircase... A true spiral staircase would be better if you're space constrained, but eventually you have trouble getting stuff up the stairs. So make sure you consider things like moving a fridge, couch, whatever up those stairs unless you have alternate access.

My primary question is whether or not the upstairs / downstairs shop configuration can function well enough to justify building it.

It really depends on how you're going to use it. IF you're actually taking big tools up those stairs, you may need to increase the floor bracing - and you need to consider the limitations of stair access. Personally, I'd not be working on motors up there (at least not without a way to lift heavy things to the 2nd floor.

Ductless split systems are an easy way to heat/cool without going to central air.

In terms of cost to build, building UP is the least expensive space you can add around here. You could add rough plumbing, water lines - it might add property value as additional living space or additional "convertible" space if you ever were to sell it.

 

[aaroneous]

First of all, thank you all so much for taking the time to contribute your ideas. I kept seeing comments come in and wasn't able to respond throughout the day, so I'll try to throw some thoughts in and continue the conversation all at once here.

The stairs take up a frustrating amount of room, especially when I look at the 3-bay parking level. There really is not a lot of room to spare. Also, when you start talking 'forever home', how will those stairs be treating you when you are getting up there in years? If an elevator is not feasible, I would at least consider a dumb waiter arrangement so you can get heavy objects from one level to the other.

The architect did bring up the idea of an elevator in the context of a 2-floor auto lift which felt a bit opulent for my taste, but I think dialed back to a dumb waiter it might actually be a great way to mitigate the "moving heavy sh!t vertically" problem. As @yeldogt reiterated in the thread, I am also of the mindset that stairs are a requirement (within or outside the main footprint) and an elevator of some type could be a valuable supplement. Point taken re: stairs being more difficult with age. For the purposes of this build, I'm going to optimistically hope for 20-30 years of use and add this to the list of reasons to go to the gym more while I'm "young".

Sometimes you have to work with what you have .

I'm a "location" guy ... IE: Why don't you build a 3 miles away where you will have more space and it's cheaper. Because this is a better town .. better location -- better schools and someone will pay me a premium when I leave. What that typically gets is a smaller lot ... Sometimes other challenges requiring more work and often more money.

It's great that you are working with a pro ... The first thing I noticed was the internal stairs. People will say they are a waste of space .. but, I can tell you that they are not ... especially with any bad weather (you don't give location).

...

If cold climate hot water heat is your friend as it's easy to zone

This is very much the mindset that got us where we are (Evergreen, CO). We opted for the smaller lot in an area with great schools and what we thought at the time was going to be a great resale value. It's important to me that my hobbies (habits) don't take me away from my family, so improving our house keeps me close by and makes it easier to share my passions with my son.

As I mentioned above, I agree that stairs are a requirement and I appreciate your bringing this into the conversation. With resale value as a decision driver, I think stairs will also make it much easier for someone in the future to repurpose the space if they wanted to.

Re: climate control, hot water radiant heat is the plan.

What is the interior ceiling height for the main (2nd) floor? It looks low for a 4 post lift.

Good eye, especially given how pixellated those uploads are. The 10' measurement is to where the roof line meets the wall. When we discussed the lift bay, my request was 13' of available height above the footprint of the lift, which would take advantage of the roof slope to achieve. It's a delicate balance of getting the height I want and keeping the addition from being a monolith that makes the house as a whole feel out of balance.

If you're set on keeping the stairs, you can frame-in under the stairs and make an air compressor "closet" out of it. For which you'll need to wire and plumb it for the compressor.

You can keep the stairs and still put in a hoist of some sort without resorting to an elevator. I'm planning a hoist over the staircase, or a trolley up the "slope" of the staircase. Wish I had worked it out during construction.

My goal is to install my compressor and dust collection in a mechanical room downstairs and plumb for use on both levels. Re: a hoist, one of the ideas that the architect had in an early drawing was a beam-mounted crane with a wider opening next to the stairs to allow for heavy things to be hoisted up and down. I thought that was clever, but exacerbated the wasted space element so we moved in a different direction. I like the idea of the trolley up the staircase. Kinda like an "as seen on tv" assisted chair lift . I bet you could come up with a pretty elegant solution for a straight run.

I put mine outside the shop footprint but covered them with the building. With the blisters you have on that building, it seems like that might be an option.

I really like this idea, and will bring it up in our next meeting. I think it will come down to aesthetics vs function. I'm curious what their opinion will be, and I'll report back.

In terms of cost to build, building UP is the least expensive space you can add around here. You could add rough plumbing, water lines - it might add property value as additional living space or additional "convertible" space if you ever were to sell it.

I wish building up was an option on our lot. We explored "popping the top" on our existing garage and it ended up not being ideal flow and we didn't gain enough parking to accommodate the running and non-running vehicles. Keeping the existing garage and adding another space gave us more options for future living space expansion as well if we needed to prioritize that over parking and storage.

Roughing in plumbing will be part of the plan for immediate function as well as resale value. My wife is a realtor and I'm confident she won't let anything get through without considering resale value. The plan is to have at least a powder room upstairs in the office and plumbing to accommodate at least one utility sink.

 

[jmarkwolf]

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=344480

 

[IPACA9]

I have a 30x40 shop that I built a 2nd story into. I kept one bay open for my lift but still have a workable space to the left of it that I have rc plain, models and reloading benches. The other side is for fun.

 

[yeldogt]

What is the connector ---- it that a current breezeway or is that all new?

For the cost of an elevator -- you can buy double of everything and pipe to your hearts content !! Make sure you pipe in some air to the main garage ... having a built in Vac for the upper office and main garage to clean the cars would be nice.

An elevator and external stairs would work ... I would never do external only in snow or ice country.

Having done odd building additions -- one thing I always try and do is make the new and the old "one" as much as possible. You want to be able to use the space as an addition to the main. You don't want to have it be this space -- "over there". That's what separate buildings are for.

In that vane ... what is the breezeway doing? To my eye -- the steps should be part of the house with a door to the garage and maybe the office more open. maybe a provision to have the lower as well for the next owner. Those two areas would be great if done in a way that they become living area. The lower being as easy as closing off the door.

I just did a lower level connector and it's now a sitting area -- quiet space to sit and read.

My current project is a church -- and the addition has a set of stairs that take up a large chunk of the space ....but they make the whole space usable. The church has a set as well.

Looking at the addition as more than utility can help open other thoughts about use.

With hot water heat you can control each area the way you want ... but the steps would be better closed from the garage parking area. I would not want to start a car in there.

 

[Hooked]

I have a 30x40 shop that I built a 2nd story into. I kept one bay open for my lift but still have a workable space to the left of it that I have rc plain, models and reloading benches. The other side is for fun.

IPA, I sure wish you hadn't posted those pictures. My wife happened to walk by when I was viewing your thread a while back and commented that she would have no problem with me adding that kind of space to our workshop.
You see, I suggested adding overhead space for storage, etc which was met with non-concurrence.

 

[aaroneous]

What is the connector ---- it that a current breezeway or is that all new?

For the cost of an elevator -- you can buy double of everything and pipe to your hearts content !! Make sure you pipe in some air to the main garage ... having a built in Vac for the upper office and main garage to clean the cars would be nice.

An elevator and external stairs would work ... I would never do external only in snow or ice country.

Having done odd building additions -- one thing I always try and do is make the new and the old "one" as much as possible. You want to be able to use the space as an addition to the main. You don't want to have it be this space -- "over there". That's what separate buildings are for.

In that vane ... what is the breezeway doing? To my eye -- the steps should be part of the house with a door to the garage and maybe the office more open. maybe a provision to have the lower as well for the next owner. Those two areas would be great if done in a way that they become living area. The lower being as easy as closing off the door.

I just did a lower level connector and it's now a sitting area -- quiet space to sit and read.

My current project is a church -- and the addition has a set of stairs that take up a large chunk of the space ....but they make the whole space usable. The church has a set as well.

Looking at the addition as more than utility can help open other thoughts about use.

With hot water heat you can control each area the way you want ... but the steps would be better closed from the garage parking area. I would not want to start a car in there.

The breezeway is new; it is an architectural element to tie the two structures together without having any shared walls. As it is, the structural/civil engineer thinks that the county will consider it "attached" even if the spaces don't share foundation or common wall. That is necessary in order to comply with setbacks where it sits on our property. A covered connector would be difficult on the main level because of the layout on that side of the house. The only option would be to connect downstairs, but it would be (in my opinion) an awkward vestibule... I do see your point about connecting the spaces, though. Initially we hoped to have the new area be an extension of our basement space, but the cost to connect the buildings was going to be significantly higher and we shifted our focus to a freestanding structure.

I think the definition of "elevator" is loose in my mind... I don't really know if what I would call a dumb waiter is as expensive as a "real elevator". You are certainly right that you could buy 2 of everything if the elevator was really only to be able to make use of tools that are hard to move. I am hoping we can make the space functional enough to not need 2 of anything of significant value.

We spoke with the architects this week and I think we're leaning toward keeping the interior stairs as-is, adding a set of exterior stairs to transport larger carryable items upstairs from downstairs, and planning in some sort of dumb waiter to transport something roughly the size of an engine on a stand between the two levels. I can't post links because my post count is too low, but I'll try to beat the system... Something like youtube dot com/watch?v=CgdsamzPN8w but a bit more finished and enclosed.

I love the idea of central vac. I'm planning on plumbing in dust collection air and compressor lines and fittings to the main and lower level, but adding vac to all 3 levels would be an awesome addition.

When you're talking about closing off the stairs, you're referring to the stairs up, yes? We will need to enclose those for fumes as well as fire isolation, I believe. There are still missing details in the model.