20 amp receptacles?

[lardy1]

I'm working on finishing my basement and have rough wired 12 gauge romex for the receptacles and lights. I'm going with 20 amp breakers on those circuits even though it isn't necessary. Is it ok to use the standard 15 amp recepts or am I inviting trouble for someone down the road by putting a weak link in my 20 amp circuits? The main house was wired the same way 25 years ago without 20 recepts and I've never had an issue.

TIA for any advice/response.

Edited dumb mistake. Thanks.

 

[rlitman]

I'm assuming you mean 12 gauge Romex (probably yellow). Here's a little secret. The brass terminals and screws in 15, 20 and 30 amp plugs and receptacles are all the same size. 15A receptacles are NOT a weak link.

And have you ever seen a 20A plug? I've come across the need for one ONCE (on a large copier) in all the weird plugs I've had to use. If you need it, you can always change out the outlet when the time comes. I'm betting it won't.

 

[exranger06]

15A receptacles are all rated for 20A pass-through current. The NEC specifically says that 15A receptacles are acceptable on 20A circuits, as long as there is more than one receptacle on the circuit. (210.21(B)(3)) And a single duplex receptacle counts as two receptacles.

 

[Zeke]

Above posts are good and true but they don't mention quality. Rather than buying the bulk dollar a piece ones from the bottom row box, get better ones that cost more. Usually the individually boxed ones are good. In a shop you will use these like the ones in your kitchen (or more). It pays to get decent receptacles the first time.

 

[rlitman]

Above posts are good and true but they don't mention quality. Rather than buying the bulk dollar a piece ones from the bottom row box, get better ones that cost more. Usually the individually boxed ones are good. In a shop you will use these like the ones in your kitchen (or more). It pays to get decent receptacles the first time.

When I first learned about wiring receptacles, the cheap bulk ones were actually kind of dangerous by today's standards, and I was exclusively using the spec grade premium stuff. Today, the cheapest receptacles are no longer dangerous, but their one gotcha is that they're not designed for lots of repeated insertions. Their springs weaken with use you can end up with a loose outlet that runs hot, where premium outlets (cough cough Hubbell) will maintain better retention over time.

So if you plan to plug and unplug frequently, then either get a premium outlet or be prepared to replace it when it feels loose. Just about every outlet in my shop has a power strip plugged into it, and those strips are the receptacles that get used most frequently, so I could count on one hand how many plug insertions my cheap permanent outlets have seen since I installed them in 2005. I don't expect them to give me any troubles, but I also wouldn't use them for things like car charging.

 

[lardy1]

I bought a couple boxes of the cheapies at Menards back when I was rough wiring. If it is safe, I think I'm going to use what's bought and paid for. But I do wish I hadn't rushed into that. Sigh.

 

[428PI]

And have you ever seen a 20A plug?

I installed a 20 amp receptacle in my bathroom specifically because the heater were always running warm and melting the cord ends. Not that they ever pulled 20 amps. Problem solved. Had 12 gauge wire running too them anyway. I just purchased some 15 amp ones for my shop that were rated commercial. Very much higher quality than the cheap ones from years ago. Don't know about the cheap ones now. These were like 2.99 or 3.99 apiece at Menards.

 

[rlitman]

I installed a 20 amp receptacle in my bathroom specifically because the heater were always running warm and melting the cord ends. Not that they ever pulled 20 amps. Problem solved. Had 12 gauge wire running too them anyway. I just purchased some 15 amp ones for my shop that were rated commercial. Very much higher quality than the cheap ones from years ago. Don't know about the cheap ones now. These were like 2.99 or 3.99 apiece at Menards.

Heaters do put more strain on an electrical connection, however, I see two issues here. First, that heater did not have a 20A plug, and second, your melting cord ends issue was due to a loose fitting outlet. Plugging in and unplugging a heater does more to hurt a cheap outlet than running it continuously, and like kitchen countertop outlets, a bathroom countertop outlet should get the best hardware you can find.

There's nothing special about the 20A other than the notch in the face plate. The quality of what's behind it can vary a lot, but has nothing to do with whether it is rated for 15A or 20A.

 

[theoldwizard1]

And have you ever seen a 20A plug? I've come across the need for one ONCE (on a large copier) ...

Same here, except it was a computer server (late 90s).

 

[The Tool Tyrant]

Others have said it... If you have something that requires more than 15 amps but less than 21 you'll be happy you have correctly wired 20 amp receptacles. My pressure washer requires a 20 amp receptacle.

 

[rlitman]

I bought a couple boxes of the cheapies at Menards back when I was rough wiring. If it is safe, I think I'm going to use what's bought and paid for. But I do wish I hadn't rushed into that. Sigh.

It's safe. Don't sweat it. Modern electrical hardware is really good and it wouldn't have a UL listing if it weren't safe. Plus if you're comfortable installing them yourself, you'll be comfortable replacing them when they wear out. And outlets DO wear out. Have you plugged anything into the nightstand outlet at a hotel? I'm not sure if you're familiar with the "now clap" Gilbert Gotfried joke, but that should give you the idea.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Personally, I am AGAINST using 12 gauge NM-B for "general purpose" circuits. It is a waste of money and it is harder to work with !

Having said that, there are places I WOULD use 12 gauge NM-B. Workshop. Probably outdoor receptacles. Not up on code requirements, but are kitchen counter top and bathroom outlet circuits required to be 20A ? Also personal preference, if I had an outlet wired with 12 gauge and connected to a 20A breaker. It would have a 5-20 receptacle !

 

[428PI]

It is a waste of money and it is harder to work with !

That's why I bought a 250 ft roll of 14-2 for my shed. Didn't figure I really needed 20 amp circuits. Only have one 15 amp in whole shed now. Will go 220 for higher amp stuff. I agree that 12 ga is so hard to work with (see thread on screws coming lose) I really believe as many problems arise from using 12 gauge because it's so stiff vs 14 gauge overheating.

 

[rlitman]

Personally, I am AGAINST using 12 gauge NM-B for "general purpose" circuits. It is a waste of money and it is harder to work with !

12 is certainly more difficult in lighting circuits with old-work wafer light boxes. Or in a bath fan. Those boxes are crazy small, and when you've got separate wires for the fan, light and nightlight... ugh. In receptacle boxes that meet box fill requirements, I don't have any issues with 12.

 

[lardy1]

This is a finished basement. Extra space. By the time it's done I'll be 70 years old. I doubt I'll wear out many of them in my lifetime. My concern was more about leading the next guy to believe he was working on a 20 amp circuit then causing him grief with unerrated recepts. For the record, there isn't an inch of 14 gauge in my house, shop or this new project unless I;m overlooking something. It's an old practice I picked up long ago and have stuck with it. The price and the hassle of the stiffer wire don't deter me. I pretty much overkill everything I build.

Appreciate all the input. I really do.

 

[428PI]

The price and the hassle of the stiffer wire don't deter me

My brother talks about the time 12-2 100 ft roll was something like 12 bucks. Now it's what? 100 bucks? I have only ran 12-2 in my house when I ran new wiring. I just bought a 250ft roll of 14-2 but it's not really a working shop either. Just a shed.

 

[sparky 1971]

I bought a couple boxes of the cheapies at Menards back when I was rough wiring. If it is safe, I think I'm going to use what's bought and paid for. But I do wish I hadn't rushed into that. Sigh.

Probably Pass and Seymour 3232W. Nothing wrong with those and they are what I use almost exclusively in houses, including my own. The only downfall to them is they will wear out from plugging and unplugging into them (think vacuum cleaner). Plug the TV, DVD player, lamp, and beer fridge into them and leave it alone and you are set for life.

 

[lardy1]

Pass & Seymour 3232LACP.

 

[ratflinger]

When we built the current house I used 14-2 for the lights and 12-2 for everything else, excepting the AC & dryer. All the lights in the house are LED so no need for anything heaver than 14-2. 15a breakers on the light circuits & 20a on the wall outlets.

 

[sparky 1971]

Pass & Seymour 3232LACP.

3232 Light Almond Contractor Pack. I didn't know that anyone still used light almond. Around here it's almost exclusively 3232 White

 

[nadogail]

Cheap electrical equipment and cheap paint are not good economic.

 

[dave*99]

Personally, I am AGAINST using 12 gauge NM-B for "general purpose" circuits. It is a waste of money and it is harder to work with !

Having said that, there are places I WOULD use 12 gauge NM-B. Workshop. Probably outdoor receptacles. Not up on code requirements, but are kitchen counter top and bathroom outlet circuits required to be 20A ? Also personal preference, if I had an outlet wired with 12 gauge and connected to a 20A breaker. It would have a 5-20 receptacle !

Kitchen and bathroom circuits are required to be 20A. So is the dining room circuit. Look up small appliance branch circuits. But they do not require 20A receptacles - provided there is more than one receptacle on the circuit. A single duplex receptacle qualifies as it is two receptacles.

As for using 5-20 receptacles, no advantage there but do as you like. Unless you hope to resurrect that old server from the 90's.

 

[sparky 1971]

Personally, I am AGAINST using 12 gauge NM-B for "general purpose" circuits. It is a waste of money and it is harder to work with !

Having said that, there are places I WOULD use 12 gauge NM-B. Workshop. Probably outdoor receptacles.

Not up on code requirements, but are kitchen counter top and bathroom outlet circuits required to be 20A ?

Yes

Also personal preference, if I had an outlet wired with 12 gauge and connected to a 20A breaker. It would have a 5-20 receptacle !

There is nothing stopping that from happening, but how many 5-20 cord caps have you seen? I can think of two for me. One was a Hotzi pressure washer, one was a 1200 watt block heater for a tractor. I cut the cord cap off that one and installed a 5-15. There was a store I wired and a dedicated circuit with a 6-20 was spec'd for the back room, but I didn't ever see what the piece of equipment was.

 

[Steve W.]

The only time I have seen an 20-amp plug on a device, it was a heavy-duty treadmill. Not the average home unit, but one that might be found in a commercial gym.

I am currently finishing out our kitchen, so I had done some research and found that 20-amp circuits were required. I did not see that 20-amp receptacles were not required until after I had installed them all, including the 20-amp GFCIs. I was also a bit surprised to find that locations of the receptacles were specified (within 2 feet of any end of counter space and no m ore than 4 feet apart), as well as the requirement for multiple countertop circuits. Surprisingly, it all makes sense, but really threw a kink in my original scheme.

.

 

[alfredeneuman]

Personally, I am AGAINST using 12 gauge NM-B for "general purpose" circuits. It is a waste of money and it is harder to work with !

I mainly did commercial work. The only #14 I used was for control circuits.
#12, mostly solid and 20A breakers are the norm. I never had any problems.

 

[Firebrick43]

That's why I bought a 250 ft roll of 14-2 for my shed. Didn't figure I really needed 20 amp circuits. Only have one 15 amp in whole shed now. Will go 220 for higher amp stuff. I agree that 12 ga is so hard to work with (see thread on screws coming lose) I really believe as many problems arise from using 12 gauge because it's so stiff vs 14 gauge overheating.

I thought you were "moving on" but you keep bringing it up.

No one has issues with screws coming loose except you. Many of them were professional electricians.

12 gauge wire is used in the billions of feet every year without issue. 10 gauge and 8 gauge is as well and its a hell of a lot stiffer, again with no issue with screws coming loose.

Just because you don't know how to properly work with it doesn't mean its a bad product or causes issues.

 

[steel 35]

1/2 of my kitchen is 15
1/2 is twenty
Took 23 years & 4 or5 Microwaves to learn where to put this one!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Above posts are good and true but they don't mention quality. Rather than buying the bulk dollar a piece ones from the bottom row box, get better ones that cost more. Usually the individually boxed ones are good. In a shop you will use these like the ones in your kitchen (or more). It pays to get decent receptacles the first time.

yup i buy the leviton back and side wire model. I bought some 20a versions (need it for UPS) tonight at home depot and they were $3.23ea

 

[wyliesdiesels]

When I first learned about wiring receptacles, the cheap bulk ones were actually kind of dangerous by today's standards, and I was exclusively using the spec grade premium stuff.

ummm spec grade has never been the cheap bulk ones.... spec grade is a step up from the cheapo ones.

Today, the cheapest receptacles are no longer dangerous, but their one gotcha is that they're not designed for lots of repeated insertions. Their springs weaken with use you can end up with a loose outlet that runs hot, where premium outlets (cough cough Hubbell) will maintain better retention over time.

ummm youre mixing up the "quick-wire" push-in terminal on the back of the receptacle with the retention strength of the tangs in the front of the receptacle. 2 different things on a receptacle. not sure why youre comparing them...

BTW the "quick-wire" push-in terminals ARE dangerous. they cause fires due to that spring loosening up that you mentioned....

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'm assuming you mean 12 gauge Romex (probably yellow). Here's a little secret. The brass terminals and screws in 15, 20 and 30 amp plugs and receptacles are all the same size. 15A receptacles are NOT a weak link.

And have you ever seen a 20A plug? I've come across the need for one ONCE (on a large copier) in all the weird plugs I've had to use. If you need it, you can always change out the outlet when the time comes. I'm betting it won't.

Ive seen 20a plugs on a wood planner, frozen food vending machine, UPS, and PDU...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

That's why I bought a 250 ft roll of 14-2 for my shed. Didn't figure I really needed 20 amp circuits. Only have one 15 amp in whole shed now. Will go 220 for higher amp stuff. I agree that 12 ga is so hard to work with (see thread on screws coming lose) I really believe as many problems arise from using 12 gauge because it's so stiff vs 14 gauge overheating.

you had to have wrapped the wire around the screw the wrong way.... ive never had that happen

 

[mm08822]

That's why I bought a 250 ft roll of 14-2 for my shed. Didn't figure I really needed 20 amp circuits. Only have one 15 amp in whole shed now. Will go 220 for higher amp stuff. I agree that 12 ga is so hard to work with (see thread on screws coming lose) I really believe as many problems arise from using 12 gauge because it's so stiff vs 14 gauge overheating.

No way!! Sorry operator error.......Loop the wires so they are CW under each screw - the wire will wrap under the screw head as you tighten. Use a #1 Robertson or #1 Combo tip. You will be surprised how much tighter connections are than with phillips or flat head.
Actually becomes a PIA to remove wires!

Look into Klein# 665 or 7314 or equals.

 

[428PI]

you had to have wrapped the wire around the screw the wrong way.... ive never had that happen

I never wrap the wires backwards. BTW: The wires were wrapped backwards and wired backwards when I got into the surface mount.

 

[428PI]

BTW the push-wire terminals ARE dangerous. they cause fires due to that spring loosening up....

I believe that the push in style where the screw tightens against the wire is better than wrapping the wire around the screw. But, what do I know. I can't even tighten a screw properly.

 

[dave*99]

No way!! Sorry operator error.......Loop the wires so they are CW under each screw - the wire will wrap under the screw head as you tighten. Use a #1 Robertson or #1 Combo tip. You will be surprised how much tighter connections are than with phillips or flat head.
Actually becomes a PIA to remove wires!

Look into Klein# 665 or 7314 or equals.

I agree. If someone has a screw loose——- it was not tightened properly to start with.

Perhaps a Phillips screwdriver was used and proper torque was not achieved.

The combo tip works well.

 

[428PI]

I thought you were "moving on" but you keep bringing it up.

Come on dude. We were talking about the hot and cold wires. Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit? Really, I'm getting tired of your stick.

 

[428PI]

12 is certainly more difficult in lighting circuits with old-work wafer light boxes. Or in a bath fan

Yea, I ran 12 into my bathroom wall fan. I'm thinking to myself, this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. How many amps could the little wires going to the fan take?

 

[alfredeneuman]

Yea, I ran 12 into my bathroom wall fan. I'm thinking to myself, this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. How many amps could the little wires going to the fan take?

The fan itself could run on a #18. That's not the issue.
It was on a 20A breaker.

 

[428PI]

The fan itself could run on a #18. That's not the issue.
It was on a 20A breaker.

Yes, that's what is ridiculous. Could the little fan wires take a short and trip the 20 amp breaker? I don't know. Would it start a fire first? I don't know. It seems we wire so the wires going to the outlet can take whatever the breaker is but with little concern for what's actually plugged into the outlet.

 

[Firebrick43]

Yes, that's what is ridiculous. Could the little fan wires take a short and trip the 20 amp breaker? I don't know. Would it start a fire first? I don't know. It seems we wire so the wires going to the outlet can take whatever the breaker is but with little concern for what's actually plugged into the outlet.

The breaker has always been there to protect the wires not the device. That’s why the fans wires are in a box like they are?

Even a 15 amp breaker may not trip. How about the ubiquitous wall warts that are so prevalent. Many pull milliamperes and even if they do catch on fire they more than likely won’t trip a breaker.

If you need protection for the device, it should have a breaker/thermal overload on the device.