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3 Phase Grinder? DIY garage?

cburnscrx

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Okay, I know nothing about 3 phase motors, or grinders other than what they do. I have a chance to pick up a 3 phase 3/4 horse grinder, cheap. He says it turns over but won't run on 110. That makes it pretty much useless to me too. Is this right, or what's it going to require to make it work. Help?
 
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thebeekeeper1

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In a residence you will have a hard time (big $$) getting the power company to run a three phase line to run your grinder. It's cheap for a reason.
 

Kevin54

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Okay, I know nothing about 3 phase motors, or grinders other than what they do. I have a chance to pick up a 3 phase 3/4 horse grinder, cheap. He says it turns over but won't run on 110. That makes it pretty much useless to me too. Is this right, or what's it going to require to make it work. Help?

Look up Rotary Phase Converters on CL or Fleabay. You would need one that matches the horsepower of your motor on your grinder. What the Phase Converter does is takes your 220 single phase, hooks to the phase converter, then wire from the phase converter to your grinder, and uses the single phase to jump start the three phase. Almost every home garage DIY'er that has a mill or larger lathe runs a phase converter. This may explain it. I've got to run to an appointment. http://www.threephaseconverter.com/modelpricing.html BTW, you don't want a VFD for a grinder as the grinder will need or should need to run full speed. You can probably pick up a phase converter for $100-$200
 
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KMScott

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You can buy a static Phase Converter that fools your grinder into thinking you have 3-phase but you would still need 220v. If you have 220v then purchasing a rotary phase converter is the way to go, here is one site with competitive prices for converters. http://www.phoenixphaseconverters.com/en/ I have a machine shop in the mountains of Colorado and have one 5 hp. rotary converter handling every machine. Hooking it up to me is easier then wiring my shop for lights and 110 plugs.

I pick up 3-phase machines real cheap at auctions when I was looking for them. I hope this helped.
 

Packard V8

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Problem is, is the 3/4hp grinder a real industrial unit worth the cost and effort? Show us a photo, including one of the data plate. Some 3/4hp industrial grinders are ten times the machine a 3/4hp Chicom doorstop.

If it's a good old one, then buy a Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) The rotary phase converter (RPC) is old school, works well, but why run two motors to get one grinder?

jack vines
 

Stuart in MN

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You also need to confirm what voltage it uses. If it's 240vac three phase you can run it at home with a phase converter or VFD; if it's some other voltage like 480vac three phase, you would also have to add an expensive transformer to step up the voltage.
 

justanengineer

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You should be able to get a VFD good to 1 hp that will run off 110V for <$100. 110V single phase to 220V 3-phase is super cheap and common, but other combinations are available reasonably cheap as well (ie 220V single to 440V 3). I think the one on my Bport cost $75 on sale from factorymotion or one of the similar automation sites. On a grinder I wouldnt futz with varying the frequency, leave it set to 60 Hz to act as a phase converter and wire a red shroom to the control to provide a good quick E-stop.

If you need help, feel free to ask here bc its been done a few bazillion times over and really isnt difficult. My house stereo actually is more confusing (more wiring!) than a VFD.
 
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cburnscrx

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Problem is, is the 3/4hp grinder a real industrial unit worth the cost and effort? Show us a photo, including one of the data plate. Some 3/4hp industrial grinders are ten times the machine a 3/4hp Chicom doorstop.

If it's a good old one, then buy a Variable Frequency Drive (VFD) The rotary phase converter (RPC) is old school, works well, but why run two motors to get one grinder?

jack vines

I'll answer a couple of questions with this response...

It's an order Craftsman Grinder Model #257192180. It looks like the one in post #192, but 3/4 HP vs. 1HP. And yes, I happen to have 220 in the garage! Lucky me!

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2769752

After that, I really have to think about if I need that much of a grinder. Let me know what you guys think...
 
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930dreamer

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I'll answer a couple of questions with this response...

It's an order Craftsman Grinder Model #257192180. It looks like the on in post #192. And yes, I happen to have 220 in the garage! Lucky me!

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2769752

After that, I really have to think about if I need that much of a grinder. Let me know what you guys think...

Ok, it's not three phase. I stand corrected

http://www.searspartsdirect.com/par...7/0721000/00001599/00001?blt=06&prst=&shdMod=
 
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Packard V8

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Learn something every day. I've never come across a Craftsman 3-phase grinder.

FWIW, despite what it says on the label, in no way, shape, form or fashion is a Craftsman block a true industrial grinder.

As far as needing that much, you'll find uses for it.

The good news is if/when you find a real industrial grinder, the VFD will work on it also.

jack vines
 

Murphy4570

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3 phase bench grinder?

Easy peasy. Just wire it up to regular 1 phase 220V line. Turn switch on, and spin the wheel with your hand or a finger. As soon as it gets moving, it will turn on its own and get up to speed.

All that third leg of 3 phase does is kickstart the motor into spinning.

You can do this safely enough for a bench grinder, but it isn't safe for many other 3 phase motor applications! I wouldn't attempt to hand start an air compressor!
 

KMScott

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The good news is if/when you find a real industrial grinder, the VFD will work on it also.

jack vines

Jack
Does the VFD give you true 3-phase, of is it like the static converters you can purchase for cheap. The Rotary I use now is made for CNC's and all three legs are the same voltage, I think they are around 118-120 volts. My CNC is picky on voltage and using my CNC Rotary Converter saves me from getting a transformer to clean up the voltage. Just curious.

Kevin
 

lametec

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VFD produces true 3-phase.

But I'm leaning towards this grinder in question not being 3-phase. It might be wired for 240V, which is why it doesn't work on 120V. But that can easily be switched by changing some wires under the cover.
 

woody 73

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What is the deal in the first place of ever having three phase in industry does it save money in electrical start-up costs? Is it more efficient then single phase? Will a three phase motor last forever before a single phase motor burns up?
 

Voi

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There was a three phase block grinder for sale several hours from me for the longest time. I wondered if it wasn't some sort of mistake, but I guess your link at least shows they existed.

As far as using a three phase grinder on a VFD, some wood turners specifically look for three phase grinders to run on VFD's so they can sharpen their tools at slower speeds. For what it is worth.

I have an old Walker Turner grinder I plan to run on a VFD. Still need to decide if I'm going to run it and my Unisaw on the same VFD or use separate ones.
 
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2mJps

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What is the deal in the first place of ever having three phase in industry does it save money in electrical start-up costs? Is it more efficient then single phase? Will a three phase motor last forever before a single phase motor burns up?

Yes,yes and yes.
 

jabberwoki

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I've got a rotary phase converter and a transformer to up the voltage to 480. if you take your time and do some scrounging you'll come up with the necessary stuff cheap.
I love my big **** grinder, buffer and now plasma cutter. The price on this stuff can be cheap and the quality is second to none.
 

Frickr

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What is the deal in the first place of ever having three phase in industry does it save money in electrical start-up costs? Is it more efficient then single phase? Will a three phase motor last forever before a single phase motor burns up?

3 phase is alot more efficiant than a single phase system. this is due to the sine waves of the alternating current. in a single phase 120 volt system there is a single sine wave that alternates from 0 to 170 volts + back to 0 then to 170 volts - and back to 0 at the start of the next wave. the average or RMS voltage equals 120 volts.

in a 3 phase system there are 3 sine waves that are 120 degrees out of phase with one another, so while each phase rotates the same as the single phase system, when you combine all 3 there isnt any point in the + side or - side that reaches 0 volts.

this is why when you read the power on your main panel coming into your home with a Digital Multimeter (DMM) the RMS voltage is 240 volts between phases. what your reading is the average of the 2 sets of sine waves 120 degrees out of phase with each other. which creates a 3'rd sine wave (not to be confused with 3 phase power) that leads the A phase by 30 degrees. the peak-to-peak voltage of the 3rd wave would be 337 volts and the RMS of that is 240 volts. when you take either of the phases to a ground, you only see 120 volts. this is because you are only seeing a single sine wave with your DMM.

you can see how much just adding a second phase (from 120 volt to a 240 volt power in your home) increases the power, now add a 3rd phase onto this, and you can see how much more power is available to turn an induction motor.

put it this way, its like a 2 cylinder 4 cylinder motor compaired to a 6 cylinder motor, which one is more efficiant, and produces more power per rotation? this is just a very breif way of explaining this, i left out alot of the math examples but if you would like a few pictures explaining this subject heres a quick slide show
phase relationships
 

WWIIjeep

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VFD produces true 3-phase.

No, it doesn't. VFDs produce a chopped sine wave, not a true sinusoidal 3-phase wave form. In that sense they do not produce true 3-phase power.

And they can only operate inductive (motor) loads. In other words, if a piece of 3-phase equipment has other loads connected to it--transformers, resistive loads, etc., a VFD will not work, wereas "true" 3-phase will work.

A VFD combines the best in efficiency and cost to power a 3-phase motor load.

Static phase converters are cheaper than a VFD, but do not produce true 3-phase power and will only run a motor load at 1/2 to 2/3rds of the rated horsepower. Static phase converters generally can't handle heavy starting loads such as air compressors.

Rotary phase converters produce better three phase power but are generally more expensive than static phase converters or VFDs (except when compared to the cost of the very sophisticated vectorless VFDs or for VFDs for large HP loads).

Digital Solid-state converters (Phase Perfect) produce the best 3-phase power; in fact, better than utility-supplied 3-phase power, but are VERY expensive by comparison to VFD, static or rotary converters.


Ok if it is the kats meow then why not do away with single phase altogether?:dunno:

It's cheaper for the utility company to provide single-phase power to residential areas. Fewer wires, for one thing; and in general, most residential uses don't require the large motor loads that would benefit most from 3-phase power. In addition, 3-phase service disconnects, panelboards and breakers are considerably more expensive than equivalently-sized single phase service disconnects, panelboards and breakers.
 

KMScott

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WWIIjeep

Using a VFD can you reverse a motor like when you are power taping with a Bridgeport type machine?

You are correct on the static converter, I hooked one up to my surface grinder years ago and burned the Pope motor up in ten minutes. I did away with the static converters and went with the rotary Phase converter and paid $2200 to rewind and replace bearings on my surface grinding motor, it overheated very quickly.
 

WWIIjeep

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WWIIjeep

Using a VFD can you reverse a motor like when you are power taping with a Bridgeport type machine?

That's called "plugging" (instant reverse). Some VFDs are rated for plugging duty and can be programmed to switch instantly from forward to reverse, but I don't think the low-priced ($100 range) VFDs can do it. It's something you'd have to ask the manufacturer before ordering.
 

Kevin54

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WWIIjeep

Using a VFD can you reverse a motor like when you are power taping with a Bridgeport type machine?

You are correct on the static converter, I hooked one up to my surface grinder years ago and burned the Pope motor up in ten minutes. I did away with the static converters and went with the rotary Phase converter and paid $2200 to rewind and replace bearings on my surface grinding motor, it overheated very quickly.

One persons setup that I looked at when I bought some items off of him, had three or four Bridgeports, all with VFD's and that was one of the questions I asked him. He said he did it all the time. He showed me by running the BP in forward, then he reversed it. To me it had some considerable lag time before coming up to speed. He said he taps that way. I'm not so sure I would want to. Myself, I tap more using a mill then I hand tap. I'd be afraid that the lag time to get up to speed would shorten the lifespan of the motor along with broken taps. With my RPC there is no lag time at all. Boom and it's full speed right now. I've thought about a VFD for my Lagun, but I'm looking at a BP CNC retrofit, so I want full speed right now, plus the BP has it's own variable speed.

Also when that person was showing me the VFD's, I'd say it took 3-4 seconds to build up speed. It wasn't instantaneous. He was trying to sell me on the VFD. He didn't like the rotary because it was too unhandy for him to walk over and turn it on. He had a ten horse rotary PC sitting there for his lathes.

Mine is wired up with a switch on the wall right behind the mill. If I would have thought about it, I would have wired the switch to a secondary switch on the mill with what used to be a coolant pump switch. The only real benefit of having a VFD which I have give it some thought would be that it would be a little more quiet with only having one motor running instead of two.

I have my PC sitting on a cheap sheetmetal cabinet which magnifies the sound. If I put it on the floor on some isolation pads, I doubt I would hear it very much at all.
 

Stuart in MN

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The ramp up and ramp down time on VFDs is adjustable, you should be able to set it pretty much anywhere from zero to as long as you want.
 

KMScott

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Thanks Kevin54, great info. It is a priority to have my machine reverse instantly. Power tapping is a everyday occurrence and my RPC does the job. I have mine mounted on a semi wheel drum and buried in the dirt in my basement. I also added rubber vibrating pads to keep the noise down. When I first installed it to the wall of my home, it shook the whole house. Some day I will need to replace mine and will study the VFD models a bit more.


Kevin
 

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Steinmetz

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Ok if it is the kats meow then why not do away with single phase altogether?:dunno:

That would be fine, as long as you are willing to (ultimately) underwrite the costs for the installation of additional wiring, transformers configured to provide three-phase, etc. to residential homes that need power only to run lighting and a few television sets.
 

sberry

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Now I want to know is if the OP figures all this is worth it to get a grinder cheap. There is a time and place and a person all this is ideal for. I bought a big ole near perfect 1 hp runs from 120V for 50$ and have seen more than one like it for the same money.

If I was setting up a true machine shop with various used equipment then this would be a different matter. I am on an old small single phase line.
 

RCStocker

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You are dead on. I am glad you made your post. All converters are not the same. It can get very expensive to build a system. You are correct in the loss of power. You loose a minimum of 1/3 of the HP with a convert and it can be more.

3 phase woodworking machinery is very cheap but you are better changing out the motor than to use a converter on small machinery. Buffers and grinders are a different story.


No, it doesn't. VFDs produce a chopped sine wave, not a true sinusoidal 3-phase wave form. In that sense they do not produce true 3-phase power.

And they can only operate inductive (motor) loads. In other words, if a piece of 3-phase equipment has other loads connected to it--transformers, resistive loads, etc., a VFD will not work, wereas "true" 3-phase will work.

A VFD combines the best in efficiency and cost to power a 3-phase motor load.

Static phase converters are cheaper than a VFD, but do not produce true 3-phase power and will only run a motor load at 1/2 to 2/3rds of the rated horsepower. Static phase converters generally can't handle heavy starting loads such as air compressors.

Rotary phase converters produce better three phase power but are generally more expensive than static phase converters or VFDs (except when compared to the cost of the very sophisticated vectorless VFDs or for VFDs for large HP loads).

Digital Solid-state converters (Phase Perfect) produce the best 3-phase power; in fact, better than utility-supplied 3-phase power, but are VERY expensive by comparison to VFD, static or rotary converters.




It's cheaper for the utility company to provide single-phase power to residential areas. Fewer wires, for one thing; and in general, most residential uses don't require the large motor loads that would benefit most from 3-phase power. In addition, 3-phase service disconnects, panelboards and breakers are considerably more expensive than equivalently-sized single phase service disconnects, panelboards and breakers.
 

justanengineer

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The ramp up and ramp down time on VFDs is adjustable, you should be able to set it pretty much anywhere from zero to as long as you want.

Not to mention you can do all sorts of other lil things with the programming. I have an electronic jog (aka tapping) button, e-stop, and instantaneous reverse on my Bport. On some of the higher end VFDs you can get REALLY fancy with setups.

You are dead on. I am glad you made your post. All converters are not the same. It can get very expensive to build a system. You are correct in the loss of power. You loose a minimum of 1/3 of the HP with a convert and it can be more.

3 phase woodworking machinery is very cheap but you are better changing out the motor than to use a converter on small machinery. Buffers and grinders are a different story.

Slight correction lest someone get confused - you only lose power with a cheap static phase converter. You maintain full power with VFDs and rotarys. Also to clarify, woodworking is a lot different than metalworking. Converting a mill or lathe to single phase will not only lose the instantaneous reversing, it will also worsen the surface finish.
 
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cburnscrx

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Now I want to know is if the OP figures all this is worth it to get a grinder cheap. There is a time and place and a person all this is ideal for. I bought a big ole near perfect 1 hp runs from 120V for 50$ and have seen more than one like it for the same money.

If I was setting up a true machine shop with various used equipment then this would be a different matter. I am on an old small single phase line.

I'd like to thank everyone for responding to my question, as it's been very interesting reading and I've learned a great deal. Interesting timing on the post, as I have decided NOT to purchase this 3 phase grinder. While I do have 220 in the garage, it's not worth the effort or cost to get working correctly. Thanks again!
 

sberry

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Having 240V is something you likely "DO" need or can use, 3 phase is just another layer of stuff to maintain.

While its great to find an old CP200 welder, work on it a couple weeks, clean it, learn how to convert it etc its not for everyone. A MM211 or little Hobart is worth every penny. It cost a little up front but for most people is economical in the long run, can move it anywhere, work with long cords and marginal service and can sell them at will.
 
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